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Old 03-06-2018, 12:55 PM   #166
AlsoEligible
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Originally Posted by jay68802 View Post
http://www.amtote.com/product/gateway-web-services

http://www.amtote.com/product/filebettm

http://www.amtote.com/product/spectrum-software-suite

My first thoughts after reading this is that a individual has the ability to access AM Tote directly and the ability to batch wagers without using a third party such as Twinspires or DRF Bets. Do not know this for sure, any thoughts?
That's correct, and this is what the larger whales use to send batches of bets directly to the tote system. They're not products that any individual can call up and start using.

Although there's really not that much of a difference between sending a batch of bets directly to tote, and sending a batch through a third party ADW like DRF, TWS, etc. It's mainly done to trim off any excess latency by removing any middle men (talking 1-2 seconds at most). That's important for the big guys, but not so much for the regular betting public.
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Old 03-06-2018, 12:56 PM   #167
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Plus they get those super-secret Trifecta will-pays... (not)

Oh, and don't forget, the ability to bet/cancel past the break....
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:08 PM   #168
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The slow update issue is a disgrace.

The technology to do it realtime is CHEAP and has been available for decades.

They obviously like it the way it is. Possibly because it suits the whales/bot players.

Stock market data is delivered in sub second timeframes seamlessly and there's probably 10,000,000 times the data involved. Maybe more.

The excuse making is ludicrous.

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Old 03-06-2018, 01:17 PM   #169
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I still find it peculiar that the OP never identified which race he was whining about.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:33 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by dasch View Post
There was a company a couple of years ago that came up with a system that could update every 4 seconds so at worst the last odds change would happen 4 seconds into the race. I believe the cost to install was about $50k. Haven't heard another thing about it since. It really makes you wonder what is going on when the cost to improve is so small yet they have no real desire to make any changes at all.
Can't find any old articles on this, but I seem to recall hearing someone proposing the idea of a new "high-speed" network similar to this. That said, the current tote systems/network (at least in North America) are already capable of doing updates every ~5 seconds, if the industry wanted it.

The main reasons this hasn't been done already are:

1) You're only as fast as your slowest/weakest link. The US network can send/receive updates every 5 seconds, but there's also several off-shore sources with crappy networks in places like Central/South America, Africa, etc. Collecting 90% of the money in 5 seconds does no good if you have to wait another 10+ seconds for the other 10%.

2) Certain US states (Florida and Arizona) require money to be sent through multiple tote systems (including an "in-state" system) before it reaches the host. These "double hops" add a lot of latency, something around 10-15 seconds. This isn't a tech problem, it's a legislative one, and good luck getting a state legislator to pay attention to your concerns about updating parimutuel tote networks. We've tried.

3) Concerns about on-track equipment, TV displays, etc not being able to handle refreshing odds every 4-5 seconds. By the time the public has a chance to look at the board, it's already turning over again. Not to mention older equipment/boards that simply won't be able to handle a refresh rate like that without burning out. This would require a lot of tracks investing in new infield boards and displays around the track, which blows up that $50k estimate.

Right now most tracks are still on 45-60 second updates, and within 3 MTP that time comes down to 20-30 seconds. Over the next couple years the industry will probably try to reduce that further to 10-20, but I don't see it going much lower than that unless the issues above are addressed.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying any of these are good excuses. I'm just explaining what the discussions inside the industry are on this topic, and why things haven't gotten faster. You can decide if they're valid reasons or not.

Last edited by AlsoEligible; 03-06-2018 at 01:35 PM.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:42 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
The slow update issue is a disgrace.

The technology to do it realtime is CHEAP and has been available for decades.

They obviously like it the way it is. Possibly because it suits the whales/bot players.

Management loves it the way it is.They created it. Horsemen better love it because all management ever said to us was if the handle falls, the purses fall. Period.

Handle is all that matters when it comes to this issue.

As earlier said, hats off to New York for adhering to post times as best they can.

As also stated by Tom, when all this OTB stuff started , 2 minutes was the cutoff. But shortly thereafter, the entire east coast and I am sure other places as well all decided to race as often as possible. Almost everyone grabbed for all the handle they could. And over the years, not much has changed.

The starter or lead outrider would often get the call on the radio to delay loading a minute or two on big days. That has been going on for decades. I have to assume it still is.
That used to drive me nuts, watching my horse spin around behind the gate for 3 minutes and then , of course, some long shot who got all amped up near the gate won't load, and the horse that hates the gate the least just picked up 3 lengths on the ones that get upset behind it . That is why standing your horse in the morning every now and then, even if they are fine, became a key. Of course, a lot of the bigger outfits can afford to do that while most small trainers cannot.
All this can affect a lot of what goes on in the race,but it's all about the handle. I must have heard that a thousand times.
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Old 03-06-2018, 01:53 PM   #172
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"These "double hops" add a lot of latency, something around 10-15 seconds."

You must be joking. Your typical internet connection involves 10-15 hops and is near instantaneous.


It's NOT the technology , its the sloth.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:00 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
"These "double hops" add a lot of latency, something around 10-15 seconds."

You must be joking. Your typical internet connection involves 10-15 hops and is near instantaneous.


It's NOT the technology , its the sloth.
Internet hops are simply passing on traffic from one point to the next. Whereas in this situation the intermediate systems are waiting to collect handle, combine it with their own, then pass the totals onto to the next system, then rinse and repeat. That's what bogs down the timing.

Not arguing that improvements can't be made, but at the end of the day someone has to pay for it (or in this case, lobby legislatures to change the rules), and there's no incentive right now for anyone in the industry to raise their hand and volunteer to foot the bill and put in the work.

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Old 03-06-2018, 02:17 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage View Post
Plus they get those super-secret Trifecta will-pays... (not)



Oh, and don't forget, the ability to bet/cancel past the break....
When I here this I keep thinking of the trading companies on Wall Street that were making money because they had a faster connection. I think a customer would place a order and the trading company could buy the stock and then sell it to the customer make one or two cents on the transaction. I think the ability to wager 1 second after the break is over rated, but the ability to cancel a bet would be a advantage. The reason I say this is that I can give 7 examples in the past 4 weeks where well bet horse's at GS and SA have started poorly and have gone up in odds. In the same time period I have yet to see a horse that broke poorly and has gone down in odds.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:26 PM   #175
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AlsoEligible, ok , if you want to say the intermediate hubs cause a delay, thats fine. Still no reason why everything , everywhere, can't be on a 5 second or less cycle.

I think the old OTB's in NY where you handed the guy a slip penciled in, was faster.
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:28 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by jay68802 View Post
I think the ability to wager 1 second after the break is over rated, but the ability to cancel a bet would be a advantage. The reason I say this is that I can give 7 examples in the past 4 weeks where well bet horse's at GS and SA have started poorly and have gone up in odds. In the same time period I have yet to see a horse that broke poorly and has gone down in odds.

The video feeds are slower than that . Not possible to do anything within a few seconds realtime. Do you imagine they have a man at the track with binoculars calling the start?
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Old 03-06-2018, 02:43 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
The video feeds are slower than that . Not possible to do anything within a few seconds realtime. Do you imagine they have a man at the track with binoculars calling the start?
No, but it would not surprise me if they are at the track.
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:08 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AltonKelsey View Post
The slow update issue is a disgrace.

The technology to do it realtime is CHEAP and has been available for decades.

They obviously like it the way it is. Possibly because it suits the whales/bot players.

Stock market data is delivered in sub second timeframes seamlessly and there's probably 10,000,000 times the data involved. Maybe more.

The excuse making is ludicrous.
wagers amounts on betfair are updated every 3 seconds or so.

quite a few times I missed a matched bet because the bots beat me to the price.

I wish it was faster sometimes when laying a bet in running on a quitter (my favorite bet) I will put it in the market a few ticks higher thus insuring a matched bet with a bot.

with the bot its the price.

with this human its the horse first and then the price.

The bot doesn't know its a quitter, I do. Advantage human.

Allan
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Old 03-06-2018, 03:48 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by AlsoEligible View Post
That's correct, and this is what the larger whales use to send batches of bets directly to the tote system. They're not products that any individual can call up and start using.

Although there's really not that much of a difference between sending a batch of bets directly to tote, and sending a batch through a third party ADW like DRF, TWS, etc. It's mainly done to trim off any excess latency by removing any middle men (talking 1-2 seconds at most). That's important for the big guys, but not so much for the regular betting public.
I currently use 2 adw's and it's possible to write code to programmatically bet with both. PA has mentioned that he did this 10 years ago. Twin Spires doesn't provide a "batch" option, as far as I know, but I've had no problem sending 100s of tickets serially to them within seconds. Anyone can look at the browser's calls and reverse engineer a programmatic betting system, and I feel reasonably confident that it's possible with any adw. I'd be happy to help anyone get set up with this, but to me it's not really useful unless you have a system that allows you to somehow output 100s of wagers after you've finished handicapping. Regardless, the point is that it doesn't require being part of some super-secret syndicate to batch bet, and claiming that this is even remotely an unfair edge they have is ridiculous.

FWIW, Twin Spires limits the number of tickets you can cancel for the day, so no one is using them to do that (unless the user has some special arrangement with TS). It's possible other adw's allow it, but I haven't checked. Frankly, you'd need tote tick prices over time to even backtest batch cancelling, which is hard to acquire unless one has been running a live system for some time. That is to say, even if I programmed a batch cancelling system, I wouldn't and couldn't use it until I had historical tote tick data with which to test it. Even then I'm not sure I'd use it...
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Old 03-06-2018, 04:52 PM   #180
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Regardless, the point is that it doesn't require being part of some super-secret syndicate to batch bet, and claiming that this is even remotely an unfair edge they have is ridiculous.
I'm not claiming that you need to be part of a syndicate to batch wager through ADW. That's absolutely accessible to anyone who wants to do it.

The post I quoted was talking about batch wagering directly into one of the major tote providers, bypassing any ADW at all. That interface is not available to just anyone who emails a tote company and asks for a hookup.
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