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Old 02-09-2018, 09:09 AM   #5371
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Old 02-09-2018, 11:33 AM   #5372
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I wonder if atheistic evolutionists have their own sacred scriptures they use to use to console a grieving parent. Perhaps something along these lines:

Hey, just count your lucky stars your kid was born in the first place. Don't you realize he was merely a cosmic accident and there was never a rhyme or reason for his/her existence in the first place?
Sometimes the truth hurts, probably more often than not. Common decency dictates that if the grieving parents were believers then this is not the time to disillusion them. Believers or not, the most honest thing to say is "I'm sorry for your loss" or words to that effect.

What boxcar is asserting is an appeal to consequences, i.e., if x is not true then there are negative outcomes, ergo, x must be true.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:27 PM   #5373
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The story of Amalek is of an inner struggle. In fact battles and war appear in many religious texts from the Bhagavad Gita to genesis as a metaphor for inner grwth and the spiritual pitifuls
Exodus preceding Amalek is also a metaphor as well. There is NO archeological evidence that it happened as recorded in the bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#Archaeology

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A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness
Once again the story was constructed by Jewish sages and patriarchs to provide a metaphorical insight into the struggle within oneself, with the lower aspects of our human nature

https://www.tikkun.org/nextgen/exodu...ionship-to-god

The interpretation of the Bible and its stories is a time-honored tradition in Judaism, one that dates back over two millennia. Since the fall of the second temple in 70 C.E., such interpretation has gone by the name of midrash.

An inner psychological understanding is what counts. Not the foolish literal mis-interpretation ascribing god, moses and Pharaoh human attributes like children do when pretending and watching Saturday morning cartoonish lauhgable melodramas

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THE MIDRASH....

... It broadens our understanding of Judaism by linking it with the mystical quest at the heart of all the worlds’ great religious traditions, both Eastern and Western. It simultaneously deepens our relationship to Judaism by making Exodus personally relevant. As the Passover Haggadah makes abundantly clear, the story of Moses and Pharaoh applies to all of us, now, in the present tense. We’re enjoined to celebrate as if God had led us personally from bondage in Egypt. This is not mere metaphor, nor is it hyperbole. Viewed through the lens of this incisive new midrash, Exodus leaps into blazing color as a model for the spiritual journey itself—a roadmap for our own passage out of bondage and into freedom.

...We start with the understanding that Exodus is far more than just a simple story about winning freedom. It is an allegorical portrait of the human mind. Its two central characters—Pharaoh and Moses—are not just historical figures, not just characters in a biblical drama. They are archetypes that portray opposing aspects of the human mind in its relationship to Spirit.

Pharaoh represents the part of the mind that sees itself as separate from God and Spirit: the limited ego-mind. Moses represents the part of the mind that is and has always been in full, direct connection with God and Spirit—what I call the Moses-mind. Both are present within us. The plagues brought on by Pharaoh’s stubborn resistance to freeing the Hebrews are our plagues. They afflict us whenever we bow to the Pharaoh-like ego—when we identify with it and accept its goals as our own. Likewise, the miracles performed by Moses are our miracles. They arrive the moment we make the decision, consciously or unconsciously, to be free from ego and follow instead the guidance of Spirit that comes to us through the Moses-mind.
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:34 PM   #5374
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Sometimes the truth hurts, probably more often than not. Common decency dictates that if the grieving parents were believers then this is not the time to disillusion them. Believers or not, the most honest thing to say is "I'm sorry for your loss" or words to that effect.

What boxcar is asserting is an appeal to consequences, i.e., if x is not true then there are negative outcomes, ergo, x must be true.
Yeah...the truth does hurt...a lot. The fact of the matter is that in the scheme of atheistic naturalism/materialism/evolution, there can be no objective meaning to life whatsoever. At best, all you and your ilk can do is fantasize real meaning. Your life sir has about as much meaning as the rock from which you evolved. (With respect to origins, you do believe in abiogenisis, right?)
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:36 PM   #5375
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Superficial similarities. Now you're going to list the numerous contrasts, right?
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Old 02-09-2018, 12:54 PM   #5376
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Exodus preceding Amalek is also a metaphor as well. There is NO archeological evidence that it happened as recorded in the bible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus#Archaeology
This is patently false.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...ct-or-fiction/

Also, there is a free e-book that discusses the Exodus in more depth.
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Old 02-09-2018, 02:08 PM   #5377
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Superficial similarities. Now you're going to list the numerous contrasts, right?
"That's what followers of every religion say" is a superficial similarity?
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Old 02-09-2018, 02:17 PM   #5378
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"That's what followers of every religion say" is a superficial similarity?
Yeah, but I have proved it. Prove to me that any of the gods (so called) of other religions save people strictly by their grace, apart from any merit found in the recipients of that grace. Prove it hotshot.

Also, prove that any of the gods (so called) are triune in nature, i.e. one God in three distinct persons.
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Old 02-09-2018, 03:35 PM   #5379
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This is patently false.

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/...ct-or-fiction/

Also, there is a free e-book that discusses the Exodus in more depth.
Your "archaeological " e-book is a work of fiction.

Evidence for the Exodus
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

Mainstream
history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never to have happened, and the story to be an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE.[1]

Of course Christian and Jewish literalists do not accept this.

and..

https://chalcedon.edu/magazine/evidence-of-the-exodus

In the past few decades the field of Biblical archaeology has been secularized to the point that, in the mainstream of expert opinion, the Exodus story is now considered to be legend.

and
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.1d31999674c1

"There was no real exodus. There was no real wilderness wandering," asserts William G. Dever, excavator of the ancient biblical city of Gezer (between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv), and former director of the Albright School of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem.

Dever's views are by no means universally accepted, but he is one of the most highly regarded biblical archaeologists in the world. The questionsthat Dever and others raise about the Exodus are of more than passing interest to secular historians, to Christians and to Jews, who will be sitting down Monday night to eat unleavened bread and the other traditional dishes of Passover -- the celebration of the Children of Israel's exodus from bondage in Egypt. The Exodus and the bondage that preceded it are the seminal events in Judaism -- for they mark the transformation of Jacob's clan into the people of Israel.

and.......

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/...ises-1.5626647

Despite feverish searching with Scripture in one hand and cutting-edge technology in the other, evidence backing the Bible remains elusive. But there are some surprising anomalies

Eighteen years ago, on October 29, 1999, Haaretz published an article by Tel Aviv University's Zeev Herzog, whose message was spelled out in the very headline: The Bible: No evidence on the ground.

Of what? No evidence that the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt, passed through a miraculously parted Red Sea, wandered the Sinai Desert for 40 years or indeed any years, and no evidence that they conquered the land of Israel and divided it up among 12 tribes of Israel. The renowned archaeologist also shared his suspicion that David and Solomons "United Kingdom," described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a minor tribal domain.
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Old 02-09-2018, 04:34 PM   #5380
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Originally Posted by hcap View Post
Your "archaeological " e-book is a work of fiction.


A forgone conclusion of yours, without doubt.

Quote:
Evidence for the Exodus
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_for_the_Exodus

Mainstream
Quote:
history and archaeology now consider the Exodus never to have happened, and the story to be an entirely fictional narrative put together between the 8th and 5th centuries BCE.[1]

Of course Christian and Jewish literalists do not accept this.

and..

https://chalcedon.edu/magazine/evidence-of-the-exodus

In the past few decades the field of Biblical archaeology has been secularized to the point that, in the mainstream of expert opinion, the Exodus story is now considered to be legend.

and
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.1d31999674c1

"There was no real exodus. There was no real wilderness wandering," asserts William G. Dever, excavator of the ancient biblical city of Gezer (between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv), and former director of the Albright School of Archaeological Research in Jerusalem.

Dever's views are by no means universally accepted, but he is one of the most highly regarded biblical archaeologists in the world. The questionsthat Dever and others raise about the Exodus are of more than passing interest to secular historians, to Christians and to Jews, who will be sitting down Monday night to eat unleavened bread and the other traditional dishes of Passover -- the celebration of the Children of Israel's exodus from bondage in Egypt. The Exodus and the bondage that preceded it are the seminal events in Judaism -- for they mark the transformation of Jacob's clan into the people of Israel.

and.......

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/...ises-1.5626647

Despite feverish searching with Scripture in one hand and cutting-edge technology in the other, evidence backing the Bible remains elusive. But there are some surprising anomalies

Eighteen years ago, on October 29, 1999, Haaretz published an article by Tel Aviv University's Zeev Herzog, whose message was spelled out in the very headline: The Bible: No evidence on the ground.

Of what? No evidence that the children of Israel sojourned in Egypt, passed through a miraculously parted Red Sea, wandered the Sinai Desert for 40 years or indeed any years, and no evidence that they conquered the land of Israel and divided it up among 12 tribes of Israel. The renowned archaeologist also shared his suspicion that David and Solomons "United Kingdom," described in the Bible as a regional power, was at most a minor tribal domain.
Let's face it: The secularists bring their presuppositions to bear upon any findings and conclude a lot differently than do other scholars. Of course, there are limitations, also, to archaeology. As writer of the last article I posted stated archaeology cannot prove every historical detail.

So, is the Biblical Exodus fact or fiction? Scholars and people of many faiths line up on either side of the equation, and some say both. Archaeological discoveries have verified that parts of the Biblical Exodus are historically accurate, but archaeology can’t tell us everything. Although archaeology can illuminate aspects of the past and bring parts of history to life, it has its limits.

It certainly is exciting when the archaeological record matches with the Biblical account—as with the examples described here. However, while this evidence certainly adds weight to the historical accuracy of elements of the Biblical account, it can’t be used to “prove” that every detail of the Exodus story in the Bible is true.


But the fact there were ancient Hebrew homes found in Egypt is very revealing since Joseph (a son of Jacob) settled his brothers and their families in Egypt in a land (probably similar to a city-state) that actually was given to the Hebrews by Pharaoh (Gen 45:10; 46:28, 29, 34; 47:1, 4, 6, 27; 50:8; Ex 8:22; 9:26). In fact, the Hebrews still occupied that land during Moses' encounter with [the] Pharaoh who knew not Joseph.

Also, there are severe limitations to archeology:

Limits of Archaeology

Many critics who doubt the historicity of the Exodus share a problem: over-reliance on what archaeology can prove. Archaeology is, in fact, a limited and imperfect area of study in which the interpretation of findings, as archaeologists readily admit, is more of an art than a hard science.

Archaeologist Edwin Yamauchi points out the limits of this science when he explains:

(1) little of what was made or written in antiquity survives to this day;

(2) few of the ancient sites have been surveyed and a number have not even been found;

(3) probably fewer than 2 percent of the known sites have been meaningfully excavated;

(4) few of these have been more than scratched; and

(5) only a fraction of the fraction that have been excavated have been published and data made available to the scholarly world (1972: chapter 4).


http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post...ntroversy.aspx

Also, as I mentioned previously it was a custom of ANE cultures (including Egyptians) to literally cover up negative, unflattering or embarrassing events by either not recording them or expunging them later from the records. This was done to protect the reputation and image not only of the rulers but of their gods, as well! But the bible stands in very sharp contrast to this practice -- and this is one of the major reasons why I believe the bible is authentic and that it's history is accurate. The bible spares no one! Jewish writers recorded things as they were even when it more often than not put their own countrymen and their own rulers in a very poor light! Writers of scripture pulled no punches.
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Old 02-09-2018, 05:40 PM   #5381
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Yeah, but I have proved it. Prove to me that any of the gods (so called) of other religions save people strictly by their grace, apart from any merit found in the recipients of that grace. Prove it hotshot.

Also, prove that any of the gods (so called) are triune in nature, i.e. one God in three distinct persons.
Onus probandi!. Fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. That's you. I make no claim but merely state that I have seen no evidence that any deity exists.

You make multiple claims, among them not only that at least one deity exists but that there is only one. Further that this one deity is the Abrahamic god, that he/she/it is "triune" in nature, etc., etc., etc. The burden of proof for all this is yours.
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Old 02-09-2018, 05:52 PM   #5382
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The fact of the matter is that in the scheme of atheistic naturalism/materialism/evolution, there can be no objective meaning to life whatsoever.
Right. That's what I have been saying all along.
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At best, all you and your ilk can do is fantasize real meaning.
No. I, for one, accept that there is no meaning and move on.
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Your life sir has about as much meaning as the rock from which you evolved.
Right! Except for the part about evolving from a rock. We evolved from a liquid.
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With respect to origins, you do believe in abiogenisis, right?
Right! I covered why early in Religion I. Do you want me to go over it again?
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Old 02-09-2018, 06:17 PM   #5383
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Onus probandi!. Fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. That's you. I make no claim but merely state that I have seen no evidence that any deity exists.

You make multiple claims, among them not only that at least one deity exists but that there is only one. Further that this one deity is the Abrahamic god, that he/she/it is "triune" in nature, etc., etc., etc. The burden of proof for all this is yours.
But YOU are the one who most recently made the claim that there are more important points of comparison between biblical Christianity and other religions.
Since you made that claim (with exceeding lame talking points to boot), then the burden of proof is on you to show that there are no significant theological differences between biblical Christianity and other religions.

I challenged you with only two areas of total uniqueness, since I'm a gracious guy. I have proved many times that God saves his people BY grace, THROUGH faith, and not of or by [good] works or by law-keeping and that even that faith is not of themselves, for it, too, is a gift from God. This teaching is unique to the bible.

The second issue I raised is the Trinity (a theological term). God is one, yet in three distinct persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The bible nowhere teaches that there are three gods. Therefore, the triunity of God is also unique to the canon of scripture known as the bible.

Have a nice, evening, sir.
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Old 02-09-2018, 08:13 PM   #5384
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Onus probandi!. Fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. That's you. I make no claim but merely state that I have seen no evidence that any deity exists.

You make multiple claims, among them not only that at least one deity exists but that there is only one. Further that this one deity is the Abrahamic god, that he/she/it is "triune" in nature, etc., etc., etc. The burden of proof for all this is yours.
But YOU are the one who most recently made the claim that there are more important points of comparison between biblical Christianity and other religions. Since you made that claim (with exceedingly lame talking points to boot), then the burden of proof is on you to show that there are no significant theological differences between biblical Christianity and other religions.

I challenged you with only two areas of total uniqueness, since I'm a gracious guy. I have proved many times that God saves his people BY grace, THROUGH faith, and not of or by [good] works or by law-keeping and that even that faith is not of themselves, for it, too, is a gift from God. This teaching is unique to the bible.

The second issue I raised is the Trinity (a theological term). God is one, yet in three distinct persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The bible nowhere teaches that there are three gods. Therefore, the triunity of God is also unique to the canon of scripture known as the bible.

Have a nice, evening, sir.
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Old 02-09-2018, 09:35 PM   #5385
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But YOU are the one who most recently made the claim that there are more important points of comparison between biblical Christianity and other religions. Since you made that claim (with exceedingly lame talking points to boot), then the burden of proof is on you to show that there are no significant theological differences between biblical Christianity and other religions.

I challenged you with only two areas of total uniqueness, since I'm a gracious guy. I have proved many times that God saves his people BY grace, THROUGH faith, and not of or by [good] works or by law-keeping and that even that faith is not of themselves, for it, too, is a gift from God. This teaching is unique to the bible.

The second issue I raised is the Trinity (a theological term). God is one, yet in three distinct persons -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The bible nowhere teaches that there are three gods. Therefore, the triunity of God is also unique to the canon of scripture known as the bible.

Have a nice, evening, sir.
Whether or not there are "significant theological differences between biblical Christianity and other religions" is of no consequence unless you can first prove
  1. there is one and only one deity
  2. that deity is the Abrahamic god
  3. your religion is the one true religion of all the thousands who worship said deity
Until you can do that the discussion of "theological details" (Mark Twain's words) is pointless.

You have a nice evening too.
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