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Old 10-05-2017, 11:48 PM   #4036
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The best judges would be the pious, God-fearing Jews who embraced their Messiah and believed in Him, such as those who wrote the NT.
We've already been though this way back in the middle of Religion I. The NT was not written by Jews. It was written by Greeks.

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Old 10-06-2017, 10:19 AM   #4037
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We've already been though this way back in the middle of Religion I. The NT was not written by Jews. It was written by Greeks.

Prove it.
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Old 10-06-2017, 03:17 PM   #4038
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Prove it.
Already did back in Religion I. Look it up.
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Old 10-06-2017, 05:56 PM   #4039
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Already did back in Religion I. Look it up.
Only in your overworked and stressed out imagination. Your lame theory has more holes in it than a sieve. For starters, we'd have another great conspiracy theory going on that would raise more questions than you could answer. Then you would have to explain how those Greek writers came to such and in-depth knowledge of the OT scriptures since they are quoted so often in support of NT Gospel truths.
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Old 10-06-2017, 08:08 PM   #4040
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Only in your overworked and stressed out imagination. Your lame theory has more holes in it than a sieve. For starters, we'd have another great conspiracy theory going on that would raise more questions than you could answer. Then you would have to explain how those Greek writers came to such and in-depth knowledge of the OT scriptures since they are quoted so often in support of NT Gospel truths.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langua..._New_Testament
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Old 10-06-2017, 09:02 PM   #4041
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As the article said, Koine Greek was used extensively in the ancient world, even by the Jews. When the OT was quoted in the NT, it was most often from the Septuagint version. So, what is your point? For your theory to be valid, it would require a vast Greek conspiracy (to what end, only God knows!) and the Greeks would have had to have known the OT scriptures inside out in order to quote passages that would support NT theology. The scriptures themselves and Occam's Razor would demand an at-face-value acceptance of what the NT says about its writers.

Also, the fact that Koine Greek was used so extensively in the ANE at the time of Christ speaks volumes to the wisdom of God, in terms of the timing of the birth of his Son, because such wide usage of the language greatly facilitated the spread of the Gospel, as did, for that matter, the existence of the Roman empire and its vast network of roads that connected the ANE with Asian Minor and southern Europe.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:08 AM   #4042
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The scriptures themselves and Occam's Razor would demand an at-face-value acceptance of what the NT says about its writers.
Exactly what does the NT say about its writers?
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Old 10-07-2017, 03:06 AM   #4043
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The Conspiracy Theory

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar View Post
If the NT was "back-fitted" into the Old this would amount to a vast conspiracy involving many people.
It does not require a conspiracy.

Origins of religion
Why do human beings tend to be religious. The answer is found in Darwinian evolution. Humans tend to think in terms of agency. Whatever happens, be it a rustling in the grass, hot weather, cold weather, storms, floods, etc., humans think it’s caused by an agent. Rustling grass could just be the wind but it’s could also be a predator or a venomous snake. Assuming the worst, predator or snake, is the safer assumption. It carries a survival advantage, ergo, natural selection favors the believers in agency. Humans have extended this to a belief that everything is caused by an agent. Human themselves are agents. The belief is extended to events that humans are not able to cause: storms, earthquakes, floods, etc. Since humans have no control over these events then the theory of agency must postulate a super agent or agents, viz., a god or gods.

Nature of the gods
Humans have become the dominant species on the planet primarily due to their greater intelligence but also because they are social. By social I mean that they act as a group. They hunted as a group, they gathered as a group. In any large endeavor they act as a group. This requires coordination. Not being telepathic this requires a coordinator. That coordinator became the leader, a position originally held by brute strength. By virtue of this position of strength the leader was able to make demands on the rest of the group. He got first choice of whatever the group produced, he was able to demand obedience and to inflict punishment on any who opposed him or otherwise did not meet his standards.

The gods are modeled on the leader. They get what they want, they demand obedience and they punish the opposition. The believers punish the unbelievers because they think it pleases the gods.

Origins of monotheistic Judaism
Before 600 B.C.E. (approximately) the Jews in Israel were polytheistic. Yahweh was their god of war who dominated the pantheon in a position similar to Zeus in the Greek pantheon. Yahweh and Zeus may have common origins.

600 B.C.E. marks the beginning of the Babylonian Captivity. The Babylonians were monotheistic. Judaism gets its monotheism from the Babylonians. (The Garden of Eden story and the Flood story are of Babylonian origin). The Old Testament was written in Babylon during the captivity over a period of about 50 years, perhaps shorter. The OT does include some post-captivity history so obviously not all of it was written during the captivity, but the first drafts were. The only pre-captivity history in the OT that has been archaeologically verified is the existence of Jewish and Israeli kings after Solomon.

Early Christianity
Christianity has its origins in Zoroastrianism. Christianity may date from as early as 200 B.C.E. but a date of around 100 B.C.E. seems more likely. The Christ of early Christianity was a heavenly being, not a flesh and blood human. This Christ was crucified in heaven by the devil and his resurrection was likewise a spiritual event.

Candidates for a historical Jesus
There are two candidates who may be the Jesus of the Gospels. The first is Jesus ben Panthera, a Roman soldier who may have been a religious leader and who may have been crucified by the Romans around 100 B.C.E. His existence cannot be verified. The other is Jesus of Jerusalem who died around 60 C.E. and whose story has some parallels with the Jesus of the Gospels. Jesus of Jerusalem’s story is told in the writings of Josephus but is never mentioned by Christian apologists.

Origins of the New Testament
The New Testament is in four parts: the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the letters and the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation was written by a guy on an island known for it’s hallucinogenic mushrooms so I will not discuss it here.

The letters were all written before 50 C.E. I don’t think anyone disputes that. Some of the letters may date back as far as 100 B.C.E. The notable thing about Jesus in the letters is that he fits right in with the Jesus of early Christianity (the Zoroastrian Jesus for lack of a better term). Nowhere in the letters will you find any claim that Jesus was flesh and blood.

What about the conversion of Paul (another person of dubious reality)? Does Paul (Luke?) actually claim that this Jesus was flesh and blood?

The Gospel of Mark
Scholars agree that the first gospel was the Gospel of Mark. The generally accepted date for the publication of Mark is 70 C.E. (some apologists claim 60 C.E.) Some scholars argue for a date as late as 200 C.E. Whatever, Mark is the earliest gospel, the earliest document the set down the alleged story of Jesus in writing. Mathew and Luke are based on Mark.

Timeline
  • 600 to 500 B.C.E. Writing of the Old Testament by a Jewish priesthood held captive in Babylon.
  • 200 to 100 B.C.E. Establishment of Zoroastrianism.
  • 100 B.C.E. to 50 C.E. Writing of the New Testament sans the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Revelation.
  • 70 to 200 C.E. Writing of the synoptic gospels.
The conspiracy theory
Do any of the events in the timeline require a conspiracy? Absolutely not.
  • The writing of the Old Testament in Babylon is by no means conspiratorial. It is reasonably explained as the codification of the new Jewish religion.
  • The establishment of Zoroastrianism is not conspiratorial. Who know how religions get invented? Are tales told around a campfire eventually accepted as true as they are passed orally from generation to generation? Of course the story of Joseph Smith confirms that conspirators can start a religion but I doubt that to be the norm. Religions evolve, perhaps slowly, perhaps rapidly. In general their origins are not conspiratorial. To argue otherwise is to argue that all religions, save one’s own, are conspiracies.
  • Likewise the letters of the New Testament need not be part of a conspiracy. Rather it’s a bunch of guys separated by distance exchanging ideas that each thinks should be dogma.
  • Which brings us to the Gospel of Mark. Assuming that Mark was one guy (not a group) what would be his motivation? He probably just wanted to be an author, to make money by writing a book. So he makes up the gospel story, changing the milieu from heaven to earth. To make the story believable he includes a few actual people in it, notably Pilate, Herod and John the Baptist. This scam by one writer does not add up to “a vast conspiracy involving many people.”


Sources
  • Dawkins, Richard - The God Delusion
  • Dennett, Daniel - Breaking the Spell
  • Doherty, Earl - Challenging the Verdict
  • Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle
  • Humphreys, Kenneth - Jesus Never Existed
  • Price, Robert - The Christ Myth Theory and Its Problems
  • Van Voorst, Robert - Jesus Outside the New Testament
  • Wells, G.A – Did Jesus Exist?
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Old 10-07-2017, 07:48 AM   #4044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
It does not require a conspiracy.

Origins of religion
Why do human beings tend to be religious. The answer is found in Darwinian evolution. Humans tend to think in terms of agency. Whatever happens, be it a rustling in the grass, hot weather, cold weather, storms, floods, etc., humans think itís caused by an agent. Rustling grass could just be the wind but itís could also be a predator or a venomous snake. Assuming the worst, predator or snake, is the safer assumption. It carries a survival advantage, ergo, natural selection favors the believers in agency. Humans have extended this to a belief that everything is caused by an agent. Human themselves are agents. The belief is extended to events that humans are not able to cause: storms, earthquakes, floods, etc. Since humans have no control over these events then the theory of agency must postulate a super agent or agents, viz., a god or gods.

Nature of the gods
Humans have become the dominant species on the planet primarily due to their greater intelligence but also because they are social. By social I mean that they act as a group. They hunted as a group, they gathered as a group. In any large endeavor they act as a group. This requires coordination. Not being telepathic this requires a coordinator. That coordinator became the leader, a position originally held by brute strength. By virtue of this position of strength the leader was able to make demands on the rest of the group. He got first choice of whatever the group produced, he was able to demand obedience and to inflict punishment on any who opposed him or otherwise did not meet his standards.

The gods are modeled on the leader. They get what they want, they demand obedience and they punish the opposition. The believers punish the unbelievers because they think it pleases the gods.

Origins of monotheistic Judaism
Before 600 B.C.E. (approximately) the Jews in Israel were polytheistic. Yahweh was their god of war who dominated the pantheon in a position similar to Zeus in the Greek pantheon. Yahweh and Zeus may have common origins.

600 B.C.E. marks the beginning of the Babylonian Captivity. The Babylonians were monotheistic. Judaism gets its monotheism from the Babylonians. (The Garden of Eden story and the Flood story are of Babylonian origin). The Old Testament was written in Babylon during the captivity over a period of about 50 years, perhaps shorter. The OT does include some post-captivity history so obviously not all of it was written during the captivity, but the first drafts were. The only pre-captivity history in the OT that has been archaeologically verified is the existence of Jewish and Israeli kings after Solomon.

Early Christianity
Christianity has its origins in Zoroastrianism. Christianity may date from as early as 200 B.C.E. but a date of around 100 B.C.E. seems more likely. The Christ of early Christianity was a heavenly being, not a flesh and blood human. This Christ was crucified in heaven by the devil and his resurrection was likewise a spiritual event.

Candidates for a historical Jesus
There are two candidates who may be the Jesus of the Gospels. The first is Jesus ben Panthera, a Roman soldier who may have been a religious leader and who may have been crucified by the Romans around 100 B.C.E. His existence cannot be verified. The other is Jesus of Jerusalem who died around 60 C.E. and whose story has some parallels with the Jesus of the Gospels. Jesus of Jerusalemís story is told in the writings of Josephus but is never mentioned by Christian apologists.

Origins of the New Testament
The New Testament is in four parts: the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the letters and the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation was written by a guy on an island known for itís hallucinogenic mushrooms so I will not discuss it here.

The letters were all written before 50 C.E. I donít think anyone disputes that. Some of the letters may date back as far as 100 B.C.E. The notable thing about Jesus in the letters is that he fits right in with the Jesus of early Christianity (the Zoroastrian Jesus for lack of a better term). Nowhere in the letters will you find any claim that Jesus was flesh and blood.

What about the conversion of Paul (another person of dubious reality)? Does Paul (Luke?) actually claim that this Jesus was flesh and blood?

The Gospel of Mark
Scholars agree that the first gospel was the Gospel of Mark. The generally accepted date for the publication of Mark is 70 C.E. (some apologists claim 60 C.E.) Some scholars argue for a date as late as 200 C.E. Whatever, Mark is the earliest gospel, the earliest document the set down the alleged story of Jesus in writing. Mathew and Luke are based on Mark.

Timeline
  • 600 to 500 B.C.E. Writing of the Old Testament by a Jewish priesthood held captive in Babylon.
  • 200 to 100 B.C.E. Establishment of Zoroastrianism.
  • 100 B.C.E. to 50 C.E. Writing of the New Testament sans the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Revelation.
  • 70 to 200 C.E. Writing of the synoptic gospels.
The conspiracy theory
Do any of the events in the timeline require a conspiracy? Absolutely not.
  • The writing of the Old Testament in Babylon is by no means conspiratorial. It is reasonably explained as the codification of the new Jewish religion.
  • The establishment of Zoroastrianism is not conspiratorial. Who know how religions get invented? Are tales told around a campfire eventually accepted as true as they are passed orally from generation to generation? Of course the story of Joseph Smith confirms that conspirators can start a religion but I doubt that to be the norm. Religions evolve, perhaps slowly, perhaps rapidly. In general their origins are not conspiratorial. To argue otherwise is to argue that all religions, save oneís own, are conspiracies.
  • Likewise the letters of the New Testament need not be part of a conspiracy. Rather itís a bunch of guys separated by distance exchanging ideas that each thinks should be dogma.
  • Which brings us to the Gospel of Mark. Assuming that Mark was one guy (not a group) what would be his motivation? He probably just wanted to be an author, to make money by writing a book. So he makes up the gospel story, changing the milieu from heaven to earth. To make the story believable he includes a few actual people in it, notably Pilate, Herod and John the Baptist. This scam by one writer does not add up to ďa vast conspiracy involving many people.Ē


Sources
  • Dawkins, Richard - The God Delusion
  • Dennett, Daniel - Breaking the Spell
  • Doherty, Earl - Challenging the Verdict
  • Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle
  • Humphreys, Kenneth - Jesus Never Existed
  • Price, Robert - The Christ Myth Theory and Its Problems
  • Van Voorst, Robert - Jesus Outside the New Testament
  • Wells, G.A Ė Did Jesus Exist?
So predictable that the last two standing in the "Religion" thread are the two card carrying fundamentalists.

"It doesn't take a conspiracy"...just some presuppositions, like anyone else. "Sources...Dawkins, Dennett", et.al, those beacons of objectivity.

" We still remain profoundly ignorant of how religion came to dominate our species." ---Jerry Coyne
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:43 AM   #4045
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Originally Posted by Actor View Post
Exactly what does the NT say about its writers?
Save for Luke, they're all Jews.
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:49 AM   #4046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Actor View Post
It does not require a conspiracy.

Origins of religion
Why do human beings tend to be religious. The answer is found in Darwinian evolution. Humans tend to think in terms of agency. Whatever happens, be it a rustling in the grass, hot weather, cold weather, storms, floods, etc., humans think itís caused by an agent. Rustling grass could just be the wind but itís could also be a predator or a venomous snake. Assuming the worst, predator or snake, is the safer assumption. It carries a survival advantage, ergo, natural selection favors the believers in agency. Humans have extended this to a belief that everything is caused by an agent. Human themselves are agents. The belief is extended to events that humans are not able to cause: storms, earthquakes, floods, etc. Since humans have no control over these events then the theory of agency must postulate a super agent or agents, viz., a god or gods.

Nature of the gods
Humans have become the dominant species on the planet primarily due to their greater intelligence but also because they are social. By social I mean that they act as a group. They hunted as a group, they gathered as a group. In any large endeavor they act as a group. This requires coordination. Not being telepathic this requires a coordinator. That coordinator became the leader, a position originally held by brute strength. By virtue of this position of strength the leader was able to make demands on the rest of the group. He got first choice of whatever the group produced, he was able to demand obedience and to inflict punishment on any who opposed him or otherwise did not meet his standards.

The gods are modeled on the leader. They get what they want, they demand obedience and they punish the opposition. The believers punish the unbelievers because they think it pleases the gods.

Origins of monotheistic Judaism
Before 600 B.C.E. (approximately) the Jews in Israel were polytheistic. Yahweh was their god of war who dominated the pantheon in a position similar to Zeus in the Greek pantheon. Yahweh and Zeus may have common origins.

600 B.C.E. marks the beginning of the Babylonian Captivity. The Babylonians were monotheistic. Judaism gets its monotheism from the Babylonians. (The Garden of Eden story and the Flood story are of Babylonian origin). The Old Testament was written in Babylon during the captivity over a period of about 50 years, perhaps shorter. The OT does include some post-captivity history so obviously not all of it was written during the captivity, but the first drafts were. The only pre-captivity history in the OT that has been archaeologically verified is the existence of Jewish and Israeli kings after Solomon.

Early Christianity
Christianity has its origins in Zoroastrianism. Christianity may date from as early as 200 B.C.E. but a date of around 100 B.C.E. seems more likely. The Christ of early Christianity was a heavenly being, not a flesh and blood human. This Christ was crucified in heaven by the devil and his resurrection was likewise a spiritual event.

Candidates for a historical Jesus
There are two candidates who may be the Jesus of the Gospels. The first is Jesus ben Panthera, a Roman soldier who may have been a religious leader and who may have been crucified by the Romans around 100 B.C.E. His existence cannot be verified. The other is Jesus of Jerusalem who died around 60 C.E. and whose story has some parallels with the Jesus of the Gospels. Jesus of Jerusalemís story is told in the writings of Josephus but is never mentioned by Christian apologists.

Origins of the New Testament
The New Testament is in four parts: the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, the letters and the Book of Revelation. The Book of Revelation was written by a guy on an island known for itís hallucinogenic mushrooms so I will not discuss it here.

The letters were all written before 50 C.E. I donít think anyone disputes that. Some of the letters may date back as far as 100 B.C.E. The notable thing about Jesus in the letters is that he fits right in with the Jesus of early Christianity (the Zoroastrian Jesus for lack of a better term). Nowhere in the letters will you find any claim that Jesus was flesh and blood.

What about the conversion of Paul (another person of dubious reality)? Does Paul (Luke?) actually claim that this Jesus was flesh and blood?

The Gospel of Mark
Scholars agree that the first gospel was the Gospel of Mark. The generally accepted date for the publication of Mark is 70 C.E. (some apologists claim 60 C.E.) Some scholars argue for a date as late as 200 C.E. Whatever, Mark is the earliest gospel, the earliest document the set down the alleged story of Jesus in writing. Mathew and Luke are based on Mark.

Timeline
  • 600 to 500 B.C.E. Writing of the Old Testament by a Jewish priesthood held captive in Babylon.
  • 200 to 100 B.C.E. Establishment of Zoroastrianism.
  • 100 B.C.E. to 50 C.E. Writing of the New Testament sans the gospels, the Acts of the Apostles, and the Revelation.
  • 70 to 200 C.E. Writing of the synoptic gospels.
The conspiracy theory
Do any of the events in the timeline require a conspiracy? Absolutely not.
  • The writing of the Old Testament in Babylon is by no means conspiratorial. It is reasonably explained as the codification of the new Jewish religion.
  • The establishment of Zoroastrianism is not conspiratorial. Who know how religions get invented? Are tales told around a campfire eventually accepted as true as they are passed orally from generation to generation? Of course the story of Joseph Smith confirms that conspirators can start a religion but I doubt that to be the norm. Religions evolve, perhaps slowly, perhaps rapidly. In general their origins are not conspiratorial. To argue otherwise is to argue that all religions, save oneís own, are conspiracies.
  • Likewise the letters of the New Testament need not be part of a conspiracy. Rather itís a bunch of guys separated by distance exchanging ideas that each thinks should be dogma.
  • Which brings us to the Gospel of Mark. Assuming that Mark was one guy (not a group) what would be his motivation? He probably just wanted to be an author, to make money by writing a book. So he makes up the gospel story, changing the milieu from heaven to earth. To make the story believable he includes a few actual people in it, notably Pilate, Herod and John the Baptist. This scam by one writer does not add up to ďa vast conspiracy involving many people.Ē


Sources
  • Dawkins, Richard - The God Delusion
  • Dennett, Daniel - Breaking the Spell
  • Doherty, Earl - Challenging the Verdict
  • Doherty, Earl - The Jesus Puzzle
  • Humphreys, Kenneth - Jesus Never Existed
  • Price, Robert - The Christ Myth Theory and Its Problems
  • Van Voorst, Robert - Jesus Outside the New Testament
  • Wells, G.A Ė Did Jesus Exist?
Yeah...those "bunch of guys" must have conspired, otherwise how could they all be in agreement with one another and the OT scriptures? Two people cannot agree on the time a day, let a lone many people who wrote their gospels or epistles at different times and in different places.

Are you still working on how Jesus failed the two tests for false prophets in Deuteronomy 13 and 18?
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Old 10-07-2017, 10:53 AM   #4047
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Originally Posted by dnlgfnk View Post
So predictable that the last two standing in the "Religion" thread are the two card carrying fundamentalists.

"It doesn't take a conspiracy"...just some presuppositions, like anyone else. "Sources...Dawkins, Dennett", et.al, those beacons of objectivity.

" We still remain profoundly ignorant of how religion came to dominate our species." ---Jerry Coyne
Yeah..."presuppositions" that just happen to be in agreement with the "presuppositions" of several other writers. Okay...gotcha.

By the way...do you know how "religion "come to dominate our species"? Can you shed any light on that "great mystery"? Would the bible, per chance, have anything to say about that?
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:04 PM   #4048
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Save for Luke, they're all Jews.
Where does it say that? Chapter and verse?
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:22 PM   #4049
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Are you still working on how Jesus failed the two tests for false prophets in Deuteronomy 13 and 18?
I intend to get to work on it soon. 4044 took several days to compose. It still lacks the polish I would like it go have had.

I cannot respond to every point raised in the Gish Gallop. I simply do not have the time. I have other obligations and those are coming to a head. Of course the heart of the Gish strategy is to try to overwhelm the opposition with trivia. When the opposition does not respond to some obscure point in the Gallop the Gish beats his chest and yells like Tarzan. "Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!"
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Old 10-07-2017, 02:37 PM   #4050
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Where does it say that? Chapter and verse?
Even if it did, you'd still say that "scripture proves nothing"! So why ask?

Do you know what logical inferences are? Have you ever in your entire life made any such inferences from books you're read? From movies or plays you've watched? Having said that, however, Paul clearly states that he was a Jew in various places in his epistles. Also, all of Christ's chosen apostles were Jews. None of his apostles were Gentiles. Therefore, Peter, James, John, etc. were Jewish writers of the NT.
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