Religious

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

P.S.
I should have added that neither the owner of the board nor any of the moderators tried to influence that decision.
I just do not want to endanger anyone with comments, while true, that could cause any incendiary reactions among followers of that religion as has been known to happen.

There have been many, many threads denouncing Islam here on off topic particularly after 911. This is only the latest iteration of that theme. And yes, although I am not a Muslim, but rather a student of certain aspects of Islam (as well as other religions) I have defended Muslims many times against what I consider a biased view knowing first hand that the certain aspect I studied (Sufism) has to say about their mother religion being distorted and also knowing my Muslim friends opinions of the current confusion by both other Muslims and many in the west, of what my friends consider the original intent and meaning of Islam. I have also spent time with other religious groups who also claimed some sort of a connection to what was in the beginnings of their respective traditions and not surprisingly the complaint of the Sufis is a common theme.

The religious games of historical telephone continue. The signal to noise ratio of the historical "wire" is a major problem.

[hcap]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

hcap's posts above and my recent comments simply support those who believe that all organized religions have been the major source of historical conflicts, violence, and associated deaths, which are continuing even today throughout the world.
Of course, it can also be argued the various religions have been simply a mask to conceal greed and needs for dominance that men leading many nations have hidden behind.
So is the problem religion per se, or those who use religion to manipulate others to fulfill their needs?

Perhaps there is an energy that pulls men into caring about these larger issues and as physical processes demonstrate as more intense power or force is applied and as things naturally break and fall apart the outcomes are more virulent and violent. Same could be said of sex and power. All double edge swords and from an esoteric point of view the reason to try and tame the "beast"

Taming the Wild Ox
Ten Oxherding Pictures, by Zen Master Kakuan, China

http://www.4peaks.com/ppox.htm

"In Buddhist scripture from ancient times sages have compared the human mind with a wild ox. The ox, the most useful beast of burden, had to be captured, tethered and broken to a harness of sorts, a long slow process which eventually made available to man the great power of the beast. Following the example in the story, the Zen initiate is encouraged to directly experience his own mind through zazen (sitting meditation), subdue anxieties and desires, experience oneness with all, and find ultimately great peacefulness (satori).

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by hcap

There have been many, many threads denouncing Islam here on off topic particularly after 911. .

There have been many threads denouncing Islamic violence elsewhere in off topic.
Very few threads, if any, have questioned the tenets of Islam or the character of it's founder.
It is the latter type of thread that is most likely to draw incendiary reactions.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

There have been many threads denouncing Islamic violence elsewhere in off topic.
Very few threads, if any, have questioned the tenets of Islam or the character of it's founder.
It is the latter type of thread that is most likely to draw incendiary reactions.

Have you read the Quran for yourself, Greyfox...or have you gotten your information by way of pre-selected, out of context quotes...or the biased opinions of others? Because, from what I have seen, the "experts" do not quite agree on the murderous nature of the Quran...or the contemptible character of its author. I have had Muslim neighbors for 11 years, who, although very faithful to their Islamic faith...hardly resemble the violent, angry Muslims that we often see on TV.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by hcap

A Calendar of Jewish Persecution
70 A.D. Destruction of Jerusalem 1,100,000 Jews were killed and 97,000 taken into slavery and captivity.

The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was not a matter of persecution, Mr. Revisionist. Read up on the Jewish Wars by Josephus. The Jews became their own worst enemies by stirring up the wrath of Rome against them. Also, 70 A.D. came to past to fulfill Christ's prophecy of judgment upon Israel for their rejection of the Messiah, and also served as the final nail in the coffin of Old Covenant Judaism. Jesus clearly predicted that his generation would not pass away until Jerusalem and the temple were utterly destroyed. And so it was.

[boxcar]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Have you read the Quran for yourself, Greyfox...or have you gotten your information by way of pre-selected, out of context quotes...or the biased opinions of others? Because, from what I have seen, the "experts" do not quite agree on the murderous nature of the Quran...or the contemptible character of its author. I have had Muslim neighbors for 11 years, who, although very faithful to their Islamic faith...hardly resemble the violent, angry Muslims that we often see on TV.

Wow! You're suddenly interested in "context" when it comes to the Big Q, heh?
Funny how context is always important -- outside of the bible.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by boxcar

Wow! You're suddenly interested in "context" when it comes to the Big Q, heh?
Funny how context is always important -- outside of the bible.

I was expecting this from you...and I'd like you to know that I've read the bible cover-to-cover. I don't criticize something unless I bother to investigate it on my own.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Have you read the Quran for yourself, Greyfox...or have you gotten your information by way of pre-selected, out of context quotes...or the biased opinions of others? Because, from what I have seen, the "experts" do not quite agree on the murderous nature of the Quran...or the contemptible character of its author. I have had Muslim neighbors for 11 years, who, although very faithful to their Islamic faith...hardly resemble the violent, angry Muslims that we often see on TV.

Earlier, a few posts back, I mentioned my own Family Physician is a Muslim.
It doesn't surprise me that your Muslim neighbors aren't violent.
Not being stupid, I can appreciate that up to 90 % of Muslims hold moderate beliefs, particularly those in North America.

That still leaves a 100,000,000 Muslims or more around the globe who follow tenets outlined in the Qu'ran and who would cut your head off if they could.
I've said what I've had to say about the tenets of Islam and their founder already.
If you want to argue that Islam is a peaceful religion, the floor is yours.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

what I have seen, the "experts" do not quite agree on the murderous nature of the Quran...or the contemptible character of its author.

Mohammed married a 9 year old girl who was betrothed to him at age 6 when he was over 50 years old.
That is a fact of history.

Feel free to argue what you don't find contemptible about that.

[Light]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Mohammed married a 9 year old girl who was betrothed to him at age 6 when he was over 50 years old.
That is a fact of history.

Feel free to argue what you don't find contemptible about that.

It is said that Mary, the mother of Jesus gave birth to him between 11 and 14 years of age while Joseph was at least 30, many say he was much older. More pedophilia? I don't think so. This was the custom in the M.E. back in those days. Average age expectancy was about 1/2 of what it is today.

I don't want to get into an argument about this but when you put it the way you do, you make the largest (or second largest) religious figure (by followers) look like a pedophile. Imagine if Muslims claimed something similar about about Jesus's parents which they easily could but don't do out of respect. Jesus is part of the Koran. So all those billions of people who follow Islam and know this about Mohamed are pro pedophilia? Oh yes they must be You should educate yourself before making stupid claims like this.

Mohamed had 12 wives. Single to age 25. Married to 1 wife from age 25 to 50 when she died.

From age 53 to 60 he married all the other wives including the 9yo. He didn't do it because he became a dirty old man (lol). The women whom he married were carefully selected to continue his mission. He also married them for other reasons. For example, marriage between a high ranking individual such as Mohamed and a woman of another nation or tribe would seal the treaties between the two parties. He married from other nations and religions, some being the daughters of his worst enemies.

The 9yo woman you are talking about (Aisha) was actually engaged to be married before she met Mohamed. That fell through. It was a cultural custom in the M.E. at that time for a woman to be given in marriage when she reached puberty which was around 8 or 9. This was perfectly legal and normal at that time. Today no. But you must see this in the context of the time otherwise you will understandably call it pedophilia.

Mohamed was married to this 9yo for 9 years before his death. First thing is that this was not a forced marriage. The parents of the woman were well to do and the father had political clout. Mohamed asked Aisha's dad for her hand in marriage. After Mohamed's death she taught Mohamed's message for another 50 years till she died. Hardly the profile of a victim of pedophilia.

Now a woman who is a victim of pedophilia does not act this way. They become traumatized, withdrawn, dysfunctional and require years of recuperation. Aisha came out of the marriage strong,intelligent and outspoken and is sometimes called the "mother of Isalm".

There is a lot more here. This is just the tip of the iceberg and a little insight into why you should not judge a religion before learning about it.

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Earlier, a few posts back, I mentioned my own Family Physician is a Muslim.
It doesn't surprise me that your Muslim neighbors aren't violent.
Not being stupid, I can appreciate that up to 90 % of Muslims hold moderate beliefs, particularly those in North America.

That still leaves a 100,000,000 Muslims or more around the globe who follow tenets outlined in the Qu'ran and who would cut your head off if they could.
I've said what I've had to say about the tenets of Islam and their founder already.
If you want to argue that Islam is a peaceful religion, the floor is yours.

Those Muslims who would cut our heads off are not following the guidelines of the Quran.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Light

I don't want to get into an argument about this but when you put it the way you do, you make the largest (or second largest) religious figure (by followers) look like a pedophile. .

Well?
I was always taught if something walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's probably a duck.
I'm not making him look like anything anymore.
Draw your own conclusions.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by Light

The 9yo woman you are talking about (Aisha) was actually engaged to be married before she met Mohamed.

What planet are you on?
9 year old woman?
I spoke about a 9 year old child.
Very very few children reach puberty at 8 or 9.

[Greyfox]

Originally Posted by thaskalos

Those Muslims who would cut our heads off are not following the guidelines of the Quran.

Really?

Quranic verses that dictate beheading Kaffirs:

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution(by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

http://faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm

[thaskalos]

Originally Posted by Greyfox

Really?

Quranic verses that dictate beheading Kaffirs:

5:33-“The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution(by beheading), or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;”

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

47:4- “Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), strike off their heads; at length; then when you have made wide Slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives”: thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens.”

http://faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm

Come on, Greyfox...you can't claim to know what a religion is about just by reading a few isolated quotes on the internet. You have either read the Quran...or you haven't. And if you haven't...then you shouldn't pretend that you have. I never said here that "Islam is the religion of peace"; it was YOU who said that Islam had nothing to teach you...as if you knew what the religion is about.

Does Muhammad advocate unleashing violence against all "unbelievers"...or is he talking about fighting in self defense? From what I've read of the Quran, war was only justifiable as a measure of self-defense...and even then, peace was supposed to prevail when the attacker wished it so. The Quran also teaches that the Muslims should not themselves invade the attacker's territory.

Now...I haven't read all of the Quran, so, I can't say anything definitive about it...but my hunch is that you've read even less of it than I have...so, I am surprised to see you speak as authoritatively about it as you have.