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[BCOURTNEY]

To further explain Cancel Delays, I meant not only preventing cancels after the race was off, I'm talking about not allowing any wager to be canceled after a fixed period of time, say 30-60 seconds, the thought being a legitimate mistake can be detected in that amount of time after that it's committed, whereas if someone is manipulating the odds board you wouldn't want a wager to age 10 or 20 minutes then 1 MTP and allow it to be canceled, thus allowing pool manipulation, the premise is largely aged wagers that are canceled are relative attempts to shift odds, a lockout period makes a lot of sense. I disagree with you about the front running activities of the whales currently as the system exists, and their speed of access to the pool information, I don't advocate they have secret pool info either, but they are both getting pool data faster and processing it faster. The one problem with sending transnational logs after the race, rather than having a transaction based system is the largest security issue for the entire system, it's the basis for all of the problem activity, it's simply a decision to leave a gaping hole in security and deal with whatever flavor of attack gets engineered now or in the future, it's quite ridiculous. How many ways does one need to be creative and fleece a system if someone agrees to send out a detailed log of $5000 worth of transactions of their own creation -- after a race is completed -- by promising you $5000 right now? That is what the public doesn't understand, their are operations promising funds say 10,000 to 100,000 dollars worth to a track, then they send in the actual wager detail after the race, it's a comedy. This was the same nonsense that was used to exploit the pick 6 pool years ago.. hmm like 15 years ago, and yet 15 years later we still do post race audits.. what happened to plugging the hole, as clearly recommended in the early 2000's then again in 2008? So what happens when a problem is found? Is the public made aware of "...Hey guys we found an off shore operation that cashed a 300% ROI over $30,000 in pools you personally bet in last month, but hey don't worry we took care of it, no problem...". People do not understand what is going on, these issues have zero transparency. Anyways, you do mention past posting that is flagged and monitored for and odds manipulation as well -- yet some say it isn't occurring -- it's monitored for and the logs are looked at because it's possible the way they have the protocols right now --and it's happening -- why monitor and waste resources after the fact for what isn't possible right?

Agree with your the CHRB board meeting comment, but these are long standing issues, moving pool closure to an earlier time doesn't fix the transnational problem either, it's just a new goal post for the robotic teams to target, and they know that.

Excellent feedback, thanks!

Originally Posted by AlsoEligible

Already happens. The TRPB receives transaction-level logs at the close of every race; not just from ADWs, but every wagering site in the country - and some international locations. These logs are sent in real-time, and aside from being used to detect odds manipulation, can also immediately flag instances of past-posting.



Agreed that a transactional protocol makes more sense in today's industry than one based on pool totals. There were reasons for that when ITSP was developed in the 90s, but those limitations have long been eliminated. Other countries like UK, France, HK, etc all use transactional protocols, and North America should also move that way.

Also agree that more transparency is needed. Whether it's the totes, tracks, TRPB....when technical failures do lead to past-posting, it should be made public. Including the track affected, the remote site, and the underlying cause. Over time, if issues keep being reported at the same site, then a pattern can be seen and further action can be taken.



Cancel delays have been almost entirely eliminated over the past 10-15 years. There's only a single facility in the US - Oaklawn - which still allows wagers to be cancelled after a race closes (within 5 seconds, if I recall correctly).



100% incorrect. Tote companies in North America have one method for generating odds, and those odds are sent to everyone the same way - and at the same time - regardless of whether you're a robo-better, an ADW, a TV trailer generating displays, or an infield board at Santa Anita.

Of course when updated odds and pool totals are sent across the network every 30-60 seconds (depending on the track), the computer teams are able to process that information quicker than someone standing trackside, and there is an advantage there. But they're not seeing anything updating in "real time". The current protocol simply doesn't support it...which is yet another reason to move to transaction-level instead of pool totals.

Even if the tote companies had somehow managed to develop a real-time feed, it wouldn't be kept exclusive to ~20 syndicates. They'd sell it to every ADW who wanted to use it. And every track and regulatory body who are getting pelted with complaints about late odds changes would be demanding that the totes turn it on for them. But again, such a feed doesn't exist.

Source: Over a decade working for tote, several years working with whale teams, and several years sitting on the TRA2020 technical committee.



Not really my area of the game, so I'm not sure what the best way is to address this. Getting a central authoritative body to investigate (if we don't already have one) would be a good first step.

I'd say a couple of the issues you're listing have been addressed, such transaction logs for auditing, and cancel delays. There are others where more work is needed. Namely past-posting, where the industry needs to be much more transparent in order to combat public perception.

As for your longest paragraphs about robotic wagering, there are some fundamental misunderstandings about what tools the whales have access to. Aside from this thread, most of the things I see them accused of all over this board (past-posting, "spoofing" wagers, real time odds, trifecta and superfecta probables, etc) are all wrong.

I do think there are steps that can be taken to bring the public back onto a more level playing field, and it's a conversation that should be had. But it's not going to be a productive one until all sides can at least agree/understand what tools the whales actually have....and I think the CHRB is going to run into this same problem when they talk about it on Thursday.