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Originally Posted by Poindexter
Okay I finally got a response for you. I am sure you will have some challenges, so I will get to those whatever they may be on Monday or Tuesday. This is what I came up with:
Discussing the word religious is complex and honestly I don’t know enough about a lot of religions to even comment on them. So rather than calling it Christianity or Judaism or Catholicism or anything else, I am going to refer to it as WWG (walk or walking with God). People that WWG especially when given a solid foundation of how to live (thou shall not lie, thou shall not steal, thous shall not murder…..) I believe become better people. Just because I have not chosen that route doesn’t mean I would not benefit from going that route. I am also going to say that like in everything else there is wide spectrum of how people WWG. Some are just fronting and pretending to WWG. Others are trying to WWG, but find a lot of obstacles of life that keep them from doing it effectively. Others are putting in the fight or battle, are legitimate trying to WWG, but it is indeed a battle and there will be times in their life that they are more able to do it than other times. Finally there are the people who are somehow able to do it. They have an inner peace and joy in them. (I believe from his posting that Dave Schwartz may fit in this category-he can correct me if I am wrong) They have a love of God and respect for God and fear of God (and when I... say fear of God, I mean a healthy fear (meaning I want to do the right thing because God is watching and he wants me to do the right thing-not I stole a candy bar, God is going to strike me with lightning).
No matter where people are in their WWG, I believe they are better off than if they ignore God, or believe God doesn’t exist…….A lot of people in their WWG make amazing transformations. I am talking about very bad people being able to keep their tendency to be destructive to society in check and actually become good, productive citizens. I am talking about people with really troubled pasts or major physical disabilities. Could they have achieved similar from reading a Tony Robbins book or years of therapy, I don’t know. Doubt it. I just have seen it and it is impressive. The worst case scenario is they believe in something that doesn’t exist, but they are still benefiting greatly and society is benefiting greatly. My opinion is, if it was not a substantive or real belief they would not have benefited so greatly. That being said this post is not really about whether God is real or not but addressing your question.
So your question is why society suffers when it become so secular. My first response is there is a lot more wisdom in God’s laws then man’s laws. A lot of man’s laws are based off of God’s laws but society is becoming more and more secular and there are powerful, destructive people that seem to get off on screwing up our society. They are creating new laws and decriminalizing old laws that are based on the ideology of the far left and very pro government forces. I don’t know about you but I don’t see a lot of logic in letting pedophiles out after almost no time served (just means that more children out there are going to have their lives and their parents lives destroyed) and releasing serious criminals on bail and giving real softball sentences to people committing serious crimes (which denies justice to the victim and sets someone else to suffer a similar fate as their current victims) and trying to make man subservient to Government (the whole covid fiasco is a perfect illustration of how wrong that can go). I also don’t trust man. I think most people are fairly decent folks trying to get by. They are not my problem. It is the powerful folks that are trying to control everything and imo do not have any moral foundation in their life that pose a great risk to all of us. This has nothing to do with republican or democrat, but I just keep seeing the abuses coming from the left side of the aisle. Like I have said before I am not really a big fan of any of these politicians.
This is just my opinion but lunatics like Soros and Gates and Schwab would not have the power to control leaders in this country if the people in power were WWG. I also think that the people WWG are more likely to discern what really is happening The more people that are in power in this county that are not WWG, the more vulnerable all of us are to very unpleasant consequences.
Which brings me to your last question. Am I special because I am not religious and I am able to go through life without being a really destructive citizen. The answer is of course not. Plenty of atheists throughout time have lived their life similarly. Doesn’t mean that atheism is a good thing, it just means that a lot of people will for the most part try to do the right thing no matter what their beliefs (whether it is because scared to go to jail or because they are committed to their family or they just inherently try to do the right thing). It is the people that do not or cannot that can really benefit themselves and society by WWG. Also we are all not tested. Some live pretty charmed lives. Others live mediocre lives but relative to how others are living in others countries they are doing pretty darn good. Others have lives full of tragedy. Life isn't always fair. Other never really get much opportunity and live lives full of despair. The people with the biggest problems and that are most broken are the ones that are most likely to benefit and/or transform with WWG but as I said above I think all can benefit with WWG.
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I appreciate that you took the time to write such a detailed post, and I will repay your thoughtfulness by answering you with a detailed post of my own:
Contrary to what Boxcar keeps accusing me of, I have nothing against "God", nor do I harbor any ill feelings against those who "Walk with Him". It's a free country, and we are free to live however we want, IMO...as long as we don't hurt anyone else in the process. Where I think you and I differ is that you seem concerned with whether or not the "atheist" is a 'good thing' for society, as if any sort of definitive proof could ever be uncovered to support either side of this argument. To me, this opinion is moot because it cannot be sufficiently supported either way...so, I prefer to leave this argument alone and concentrate instead on things that I can substantiate in some sort of provable way.
I feel that my job as a responsible citizen isn't to support questionable causes just because such causes "do good" for society. My job is to uncover the "truth" as much as I can...and to dispel the myth and superstition that I feel has plagued our world for far too long. And I try to do this for myself alone...without any desire to get on my soapbox and try to influence the deep-seated beliefs of anybody else.
I don't believe in the anthropomorphic concept of God that Christianity enbraces and promotes; I think that this is a construct of man, and an indication of how vain man can be. As an ancient Greek philosopher once said..."if the horses ever created a god...then this god would look like a horse". Having said that, though, I must also acknowledge the possibility that I might be wrong about this...and I am prepared to face the afterlife consequences if such indeed is the case. Most of my Christian friends tell me that they too have their doubts about "Father God"...but they feel that it's better to "play it safe" and believe, since this appears to them to be the "safe" option.
This is the kindergarten of religion, IMO...and I want no part of it. I live better with myself by knowing that I follow my own path...regardless of where it leads me. I never saw myself as a follower of others.
I don't know for sure whether the religious person is more moral than the atheist...that is beyond my powers of observation. But I do know this: The atheist who conducts himself in a moral way is doing so without the expectation of any sort of heavenly "repayment"...whereas the religious person often does it NOT because he wants to "please God"...but because he fears God's afterlife punishment. Morality doesn't have the same flavor, IMO, if we practice it while seeking some kind of "heavenly reward". In all our earthly actions, it's our MOTIVE that counts, as far as I am concerned...and I must side with the atheist in this one. Live a virtuous life WITHOUT expecting any kind of reward for it...either in this life, or the next. That's the honorable way...IMO.
