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-   -   Fans advocacy group to support safety? (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142588)

Gasser57 01-02-2018 04:53 PM

Fans advocacy group to support safety?
 
I was live-streaming todayís first race at Parx, and the caller mentioned a horse (Lust for Money) and jockey went down. It happened off camera, and about 10 minutes later Parx suspended racing for the day because of the cold. I then saw tweets indicating Lust for Money had died (presumably euthanized), but there were no details. Some tweets expressed anger that a horse had to die before racing was cancelled.

As someone whoís fairly new to the sport, it angers me if the horsesí safety takes a backseat to business interests. Not saying this was the case here since I donít know the particulars about what happened today, but it did make me wonder if thereís an advocacy group of fans that works to help ensure the safety of the horses comes first? Iíve read a little about the NTRA, but it looks like itís more of a trade group and this is just one of many things it promotes.

Is there a fan-centered group that advocates solely for safer racing?

Fager Fan 01-02-2018 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasser57 (Post 2256539)
I was live-streaming todayís first race at Parx, and the caller mentioned a horse (Lust for Money) and jockey went down. It happened off camera, and about 10 minutes later Parx suspended racing for the day because of the cold. I then saw tweets indicating Lust for Money had died (presumably euthanized), but there were no details. Some tweets expressed anger that a horse had to die before racing was cancelled.

As someone whoís fairly new to the sport, it angers me if the horsesí safety takes a backseat to business interests. Not saying this was the case here since I donít know the particulars about what happened today, but it did make me wonder if thereís an advocacy group of fans that works to help ensure the safety of the horses comes first? Iíve read a little about the NTRA, but it looks like itís more of a trade group and this is just one of many things it promotes.

Is there a fan-centered group that advocates solely for safer racing?

No, there's not.

thaskalos 01-02-2018 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasser57 (Post 2256539)
I was live-streaming todayís first race at Parx, and the caller mentioned a horse (Lust for Money) and jockey went down. It happened off camera, and about 10 minutes later Parx suspended racing for the day because of the cold. I the saw tweets indicating Lust for Money died (presumably euthanized), but there were no details. Some tweets expressed anger that a horse had to die before racing was cancelled.

As someone whoís fairly new to the sport, it angers me if the horsesí safety takes a backseat to business interests. Not saying this was the case here since I donít know the particulars about what happened today, but it did make me wonder if thereís an advocacy group of fans that works to help ensure the safety of the horses comes first? Iíve read a little about the NTRA, but it looks like itís more of a trade group and this is just one of many things it promotes.

Is there a fan-centered group that advocates solely for safer racing?


If this is true...then you will have a difficult time adjusting to this game. Here...powerful painkillers are administered to these horses in order "keep them racing", when they should really be resting while mending their various injuries. And this happens throughout the year. Consequently...not only are the sport's "business interests" held in higher regard than the "safety of the horses"...they are considered more important than the safety of their riders, as well.

And we horseplayers are most interested in our "business interests" too...while we try to keep these "ugly details" out of our minds as we try to "pick winners". Sadly...you can't be "sensitive" in this business. You either get "disensitized"...or you get OUT.

Tom 01-02-2018 05:38 PM

Quote:

As someone whoís fairly new to the sport, it angers me if the horsesí safety takes a backseat to business interests.
Seriously, I have two words for you:

RUN!
NOW!

Many do not give a crap about horse safety and even more do not give a crap about you as a customer.

You will quickly learn that most, if not all tracks, either do not care or do not possess the mental abilities to effect any meaningful changes


PaceAdvantage 01-02-2018 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasser57 (Post 2256539)
As someone whoís fairly new to the sport, it angers me if the horsesí safety takes a backseat to business interests.

I feel comfortable saying a horse's safety does NOT take a backseat to business interests. Now, obviously, this isn't always the case. But where else in the world is it the case?

Even PETA has been shown to kill a whole shitload of animals it had in its care at some of its shelters.

And yes, there are some trainers who are out there for the buck and will do anything to get it, including putting animals at risk.

But, for the most part, I would say that the horses in this game are cared for as best as possible, under the current guidelines in place.

Yes, you can complain about LEGAL medications such as bute (painkillers) and lasix (anti-bleeders). But they are legal for use and those using them are operating under the laws that are in place.

But just like any other industry, there are those individuals who seek to push the envelope and beyond. This isn't a perfect world.

But to postulate that horse's safety (and by extension, jockey safety) takes a backseat to business interests is unfair in my opinion.

chiguy 01-02-2018 06:13 PM

Perfectly stated PA. I know a few horsemen and I can tell you that they care for their horses like they do family members. There will always be bad apples that put $ before all else but that exists in every walk of life.

Tom 01-02-2018 06:58 PM

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/s...d.php?t=142208

But the game still allows this crap to occur.
The game needs to be purged of the slimeballs who pretend to be trainers.
And it ain't happening fast enough.

Mulerider 01-02-2018 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage (Post 2256567)
But just like any other industry, there are those individuals who seek to push the envelope and beyond. This isn't a perfect world.

Is it safe to assume that those individuals gravitate to the tracks at which it is easier to push the envelope? I mention this because I'd handicapped Parx's Monday card for a tournament. Two horses on the card were coming back after two days' rest. One was a granddaughter of Holy Bull, and was making her fourth lifetime start, all at Parx. Prior to her race on Friday (in which she ran hard but wide) she'd been laid off for two months. Surely her trainer knows horses better than I, but I was vaguely relieved when the card was cancelled, despite having spent a couple of hours handicapping it.

Gasser57 01-02-2018 07:50 PM

So it sounds like opinions are mixed regarding whether the horses' well-being (and by extension, the jockeys') are subordinate to business interests.

Tom - thanks for posting the Penn thread. After reading that it sounds like the best thing to do about tracks that show a flagrant disregard for safety is boycott them. I certainly won't give Penn any more business, and will do some research to try and figure out which tracks care more about the horses and jockeys and just play them. Mulerider's post about Parx carding two horses in a race that only had two days off suggests along with today's event mentioned in my OP that I don't need to give them any business either.

Fager Fan 01-02-2018 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage (Post 2256567)
I feel comfortable saying a horse's safety does NOT take a backseat to business interests. Now, obviously, this isn't always the case. But where else in the world is it the case?

Even PETA has been shown to kill a whole shitload of animals it had in its care at some of its shelters.

And yes, there are some trainers who are out there for the buck and will do anything to get it, including putting animals at risk.

But, for the most part, I would say that the horses in this game are cared for as best as possible, under the current guidelines in place.

Yes, you can complain about LEGAL medications such as bute (painkillers) and lasix (anti-bleeders). But they are legal for use and those using them are operating under the laws that are in place.

But just like any other industry, there are those individuals who seek to push the envelope and beyond. This isn't a perfect world.

But to postulate that horse's safety (and by extension, jockey safety) takes a backseat to business interests is unfair in my opinion.

Thank you.

There are many in the business who take great care of the horses.

There's a sickening story with photos making its round on FB about the ass**** who left a dog chained to the front porch in this weather and it was found frozen to death. Do we condemn all dog owners?

thaskalos 01-02-2018 09:19 PM

There was trainer testimony in Pennsylvania that as many as 95% of the trainers at Penn National "cheat" by illegally administering medication to their horses on race day. Isn't this "placing business-interests ahead of the interests of the horse"? Is Penn National that much different than Parx...or Charlestown...or Evangeline...or Delta Downs, etc...in this regard?

Or do we deny the cheating allegations...even when the trainers themselves admit to them?

Tom 01-02-2018 09:31 PM

Quote:

Or do we deny the cheating allegations...even when the trainers themselves admit to them?
A conundrum.
You know trainers never tell the truth! :cool:

thaskalos 01-02-2018 09:32 PM

There was also a report circulating a few years ago...on a massive study that was conducted on the fractured limbs of horses who had suffered fatal breakdowns while racing or working out. It reported that, in about 75% of the cases, the fatal break of the limb occurred precisely on the same spot where there was evidence of prior trauma...suggesting that the horse was brought back to racing before its prior serious injury had properly healed. Isn't this also an indication of placing "business" ahead of "safety"?

Of course, these reports seldom enjoy wide publicity...because they interfere with the "business interests" of the sport. How many horses die at the track every year...and how little mention do these unfortunate horses garner?

Just because we play this game doesn't mean that we must also keep our heads buried in the sand.

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2256655)
There was also a report circulating a few years ago...on a massive study that was conducted on the fractured limbs of horses who had suffered fatal breakdowns while racing or working out. It reported that, in about 75% of the cases, the fatal break of the limb occurred precisely on the same spot where there was evidence of prior trauma...suggesting that the horse was brought back to racing before its prior serious injury had properly healed. Isn't this also an indication of placing "business" ahead of "safety"?

Of course, these reports seldom enjoy wide publicity...because they interfere with the "business interests" of the sport. How many horses die at the track every year...and how little mention do these unfortunate horses garner?

Just because we play this game doesn't mean that we must also keep our heads buried in the sand.

Those reports see wide circulation. Everyone in racing has read them and knows this to be the case. It isn't indication of being brought back to racing prior to proper healing of a previous serious injury. Instead, it's the beginning stages of the future fracture.

The problem is detection. If the horse is showing no signs of lameness, then it can get past the trainer, the trainer's vet, and the state vet. This isn't to say that there aren't trainers who will overlook or cover up signs of lameness, but most are conscientious.

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2256647)
There was trainer testimony in Pennsylvania that as many as 95% of the trainers at Penn National "cheat" by illegally administering medication to their horses on race day. Isn't this "placing business-interests ahead of the interests of the horse"? Is Penn National that much different than Parx...or Charlestown...or Evangeline...or Delta Downs, etc...in this regard?

Or do we deny the cheating allegations...even when the trainers themselves admit to them?

Cheaters saying everyone else is doing it isn't entirely believable, is it?

thaskalos 01-03-2018 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256779)
Those reports see wide circulation. Everyone in racing has read them and knows this to be the case. It isn't indication of being brought back to racing prior to proper healing of a previous serious injury. Instead, it's the beginning stages of the future fracture.

The problem is detection. If the horse is showing no signs of lameness, then it can get past the trainer, the trainer's vet, and the state vet. This isn't to say that there aren't trainers who will overlook or cover up signs of lameness, but most are conscientious.

The problem isn't "detection"...the problem is that the trainers aren't punished enough when they show a blatant disregard for the instituted medication laws of this game. If the problem was "detection"...then illegal substances like cobra venom and frog juice wouldn't get the attention that they've gotten in recent years. And it isn't just the lesser-known trainers at the minor tracks who indulge in the use of these powerful painkillers, whose sole purpose is to numb these unfortunate horses to the injuries that they are forced to race with.

"Cobra venom is a therapeutic", declared the internationally well-known trainer Patrick Biancone...when veils of cobra venom were discovered in his barn in 2007. His training licence was suspended, but it was later reinstated by the KHRA...because he had supposedly "served his time". "Serving his time" means that a criminal is allowed to return to "society at large" after paying his debt to society...it doesn't mean that he gets to return to the profession that he already disgraced by his prior offences. When a doctor gets imprisoned for intentionally mistreating his patients, he gets released after "serving his time"...but he isn't allowed to return to practicing medicine. But these are mere "technicalities", as far as horseracing is concerned...and the game's "integrity" problems are allowed to persist. And we are supposed to believe that the business interests aren't placed ahead of the horses' safety in this game. :rolleyes:

AltonKelsey 01-03-2018 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256641)
Thank you.

There are many in the business who take great care of the horses.

There's a sickening story with photos making its round on FB about the ass**** who left a dog chained to the front porch in this weather and it was found frozen to death. Do we condemn all dog owners?

no, but I condemn the authorities for not invoking the death penalty in cases like that

Gasser57 01-03-2018 04:22 PM

So as many here may already know, it looks like the Jockey Club and NTRA are perhaps the leading advocates for horse and jockey safety. I found the Jockey Club's Equine Injury Database - http://jockeyclub.com/default.asp?se...vocacy&area=10 - and found some interesting info. While all tracks have the opportunity to participate and make their data available, most don't even though it's free.

Here's NTRA's map of tracks that are Safety and Integrity accredited according to their standards - https://www.ntra.com/safety-integrit...itedfacilities.

A quick comparison suggests most of those who report on the injury database are also NTRA accredited, although Churchill Downs is a notable exception. Also, it doesn't appear that the tracks on these lists necessarily have the lowest number of fatalities. For instance, Del Mar had over 3 per 1,000 starts last year - almost twice as many as when the database was started in '09 and about double the average for all the reporting tracks.

When time permits, I'm going to use these resources as a starting point to see if I can create some sort of green/yellow/red list that might provide those like myself who are unfamiliar with a track's safety record with some reference in case they want to steer clear of tracks with poor safety standards.

Redboard 01-03-2018 05:09 PM

NYRA has a website where they log all of their equine injuries.

https://breakdown.gaming.ny.gov/

In my opinion, the NYRA tracks (Belmont, Saratoga & Aqueduct) care the most about this issue. These three tracks have the highest purses and the most vet scratches.

All tracks want to have full fields, that brings in the betting money. A track offering a $100 purse is not going to get as many potential starters as a track offering $100k purses. Therefore, the former isn't going to be as "picky" as the tracks offering higher purses.

Gasser57 01-03-2018 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redboard (Post 2256872)
NYRA has a website where they log all of their equine injuries.

https://breakdown.gaming.ny.gov/

In my opinion, the NYRA tracks (Belmont, Saratoga & Aqueduct) care the most about this issue. These three tracks have the highest purses and the most vet scratches.

All tracks want to have full fields, that brings in the betting money. A track offering a $100 purse is not going to get as many potential starters as a track offering $100k purses. Therefore, the former isn't going to be as "picky" as the tracks offering higher purses.

Thanks Redboard - that's a helpful link. Woodbine also has a real low fatality rate, so maybe the Canadians are on to something. Interestingly, as a group the larger California tracks have a higher than average rate.

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2256793)
The problem isn't "detection"...the problem is that the trainers aren't punished enough when they show a blatant disregard for the instituted medication laws of this game. If the problem was "detection"...then illegal substances like cobra venom and frog juice wouldn't get the attention that they've gotten in recent years. And it isn't just the lesser-known trainers at the minor tracks who indulge in the use of these powerful painkillers, whose sole purpose is to numb these unfortunate horses to the injuries that they are forced to race with.

"Cobra venom is a therapeutic", declared the internationally well-known trainer Patrick Biancone...when veils of cobra venom were discovered in his barn in 2007. His training licence was suspended, but it was later reinstated by the KHRA...because he had supposedly "served his time". "Serving his time" means that a criminal is allowed to return to "society at large" after paying his debt to society...it doesn't mean that he gets to return to the profession that he already disgraced by his prior offences. When a doctor gets imprisoned for intentionally mistreating his patients, he gets released after "serving his time"...but he isn't allowed to return to practicing medicine. But these are mere "technicalities", as far as horseracing is concerned...and the game's "integrity" problems are allowed to persist. And we are supposed to believe that the business interests aren't placed ahead of the horses' safety in this game. :rolleyes:

You think pointing out the one case of cobra venom being found in someone's barn in the past 10 years explains the break down rate of today's horses and the microfractures that (understandably) are usually the cause of the weakened bone breaking? And tells us that the sport as a whole doesn't give a damn about the horses? Some don't, but the majority do.

Look at all the people screaming for poor ol' Ron Ellis. I have had no use for the CHRB ever since they let Baffert and all the other trainers off the hook for their horses dropping dead, but here the CHRB gives a decent punishment and people want to defend Ellis. So the authorities in this game are rather damned if they do, damned if they don't.

JustRalph 01-03-2018 07:53 PM

Fan advocacy has been so successful in the past...........letís start..........:bang:

Gasser57 01-04-2018 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustRalph (Post 2256960)
Fan advocacy has been so successful in the past...........letís start..........:bang:

Has there ever been an organized fan effort to boycott tracks, trainers, breeders, and owners that have a record of disregarding the health of horses?

rastajenk 01-04-2018 03:59 PM

I would hope not, since proving such a thing would be about impossible. Not that that matters to sjw's, even those within the realm of racing.

Denny 01-04-2018 04:11 PM

How about all the horses that died at Saratoga last year.

Believe it was 16 in 6 weeks. Way above averages.

Gasser57 01-04-2018 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rastajenk (Post 2257236)
I would hope not, since proving such a thing would be about impossible. Not that that matters to sjw's, even those within the realm of racing.

Not if itís a matter of public record. And donít label those of us who care about the horses ďsjwísĒ.

JustRalph 01-04-2018 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gasser57 (Post 2257233)
Has there ever been an organized fan effort to boycott tracks, trainers, breeders, and owners that have a record of disregarding the health of horses?

Do a search for Öboycott....on this board. The tracks donít care even when boycotted.

SaratogaSteve 01-05-2018 01:31 AM

I find this thread, and similar ones here, hilarious. Most folks here don't care about the horseflesh - look at the San Luis Rey thread for all you need to know. This thread has more posts than it.

thaskalos 01-05-2018 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaratogaSteve (Post 2257422)
I find this thread, and similar ones here, hilarious. Most folks here don't care about the horseflesh - look at the San Luis Rey thread for all you need to know. This thread has more posts than it.

Since you yourself have chosen to post here without having first posted in the San Louis Rey thread...the assumption must be made that YOU don't care about the horseflesh, either. Right?

cj 01-05-2018 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaratogaSteve (Post 2257422)
I find this thread, and similar ones here, hilarious. Most folks here don't care about the horseflesh - look at the San Luis Rey thread for all you need to know. This thread has more posts than it.

I don't remember if I posted in that thread or not. In my case that sure doesn't mean I don't care and didn't help. I'm sure there are others here in that situation.

There isn't a whole lot most people can do other than give money. Some people can't or won't do that. In a game where we pay 20 cents on the dollar to play, it really isn't the bettors job to police how horse's are treated. There are people in actual paid positions to do that.

Mulerider 01-05-2018 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2257428)
I don't remember if I posted in that thread or not. In my case that sure doesn't mean I don't care and didn't help. I'm sure there are others here in that situation.

Same here. I used the link that PA provided, but didn't see a particular need to post in the thread.

PaceAdvantage 01-05-2018 03:29 AM

You're never going to know in "real-time" which trainers, vets, tracks, etc. are doing their best or not doing their best when it comes to taking care of the horses in their charge.

So, you have two choices. Abandon the game entirely, or accept the fact that in all walks of life, you have good people and you have not-so-good people in charge of the welfare of the elderly, of children and of animals.

I don't see the point of going through all the trouble of figuring out which tracks are better than others and then "boycotting" the "bad ones."

Most of the time you'll probably be wrong in your assessment due to lack of information or guilty of misinterpretation of the information you do have.

There you have it. Hope I saved some of you some time.

SaratogaSteve 01-05-2018 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2257424)
Since you yourself have chosen to post here without having first posted in the San Louis Rey thread...the assumption must be made that YOU don't care about the horseflesh, either. Right?

I wouldn't have expected you to have an emotional reaction. Interesting.

thaskalos 01-05-2018 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaratogaSteve (Post 2257553)
I wouldn't have expected you to have an emotional reaction. Interesting.

One "emotional reaction" deserves another...IMO.


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