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-   -   Ax Man (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142577)

Delta Cone 01-02-2018 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2256580)
Bob tends to hold these cards close...there was no indication other than a $2500 stallion fee and really good works to go off of here...Usually, there is more of a higher price sire or high sale price associated with these talented firsters.

Before the race the dam had 7 foals to make it to the races, three of which had won their career debuts. In fact, she won her career debut too.

Donít think there were many cards being held close at all...in fact, it was fairly obvious the horse would be ready to run.

affirmedny 01-02-2018 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2256621)
Misremembered is listed as a Sire at Hill 'n Dale in Kentucky...

http://www.hillndalefarms.com/misrem...ormation.shtml

Regarding Race 6, Jan 1 SA: (This Race is Restricted to Homebreds and Horses Sold at Public Auction for $100,000 or Less).

Dam Shameful must be a California based Broodmare...How does one research the progeny records of Broodmares and where they are currently standing...?


http://www.pedigreequery.com/progeny/shameful

VigorsTheGrey 01-02-2018 07:30 PM

You are right, it is just that the $2500 sire price threw me a little off balance...i should have done some research on this one and 1.4 to one seemed a little short, so I boxed her with Shanghai Billy who really disappointed....seems now like a gift price but there have been many other Baffert firsters that dissappointed as well...this one just might have a real bright future..let's hope so:)

Fager Fan 01-02-2018 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2256621)
Misremembered is listed as a Sire at Hill 'n Dale in Kentucky...

http://www.hillndalefarms.com/misrem...ormation.shtml

Regarding Race 6, Jan 1 SA: (This Race is Restricted to Homebreds and Horses Sold at Public Auction for $100,000 or Less).

Dam Shameful must be a California based Broodmare...How does one research the progeny records of Broodmares and where they are currently standing...?

That's an old page. He's no longer on their list of stallions. The current bh roster shows him standing in CA for $2,500. It was a "favor" of friend Hill 'n' Dale to stand him originally since they wouldn't normally be interested in standing a $3,500 stallion.

VigorsTheGrey 01-02-2018 09:12 PM


Spalding No! 01-02-2018 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256593)
That's shocking. How does Baffert get these owners of good mares to go to stallions he has an interest in? No way would I send a mare of that caliber to a $2,500 California stallion.

There is some sort of Baffert-Sikura-Earnhardt link that compels or entices (free seasons) the latter to support Hill N Dale studs with their best broodmare(s).

Shameful was bred to Indian Charlie to produce Indian Blessing when he was fairly low on the totem pole as a stud (probably stood for no more than $15K at the time). That was a no-brainer though, as the Earnhardts also bred and raced Indian Charlie. Since then, Shameful has been bred to other Baffert-associated horses like Midnight Lute, Roman Ruler, and Misremembered (all Hill N Dale studs). Candy Ride (Hill N Dale) and Empire Maker are the only top rated sires she's been bred to.

Indian Blessing herself was more of the same when she was retired. She was bred to first-time sire Zensational (who also went to Hill N Dale) as a maiden mare.

Shameful seems to produce precocious offspring regardless of covering sire and the Earnhardts appear to breed to race, so if they are not looking to sell the foals avoiding 6-figure stallions is somewhat sensible.

VigorsTheGrey 01-02-2018 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256593)
That's shocking. How does Baffert get these owners of good mares to go to stallions he has an interest in? No way would I send a mare of that caliber to a $2,500 California stallion.

Maybe crosses of Candy Ride and his sons with Carson City and his sons and grandsons is the reason...=A++ Pedigree...?

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2256678)
Maybe crosses of Candy Ride and his sons with Carson City and his sons and grandsons is the reason...=A++ Pedigree...?

Then I'd go to Candy Ride.

Over the years I've seen these top mares owned by Baffert's clients going to questionable and/or unproven stallions that Baffert has an interest in and it totally baffles me how he convinces them to do so. A free season isn't worth it. He'd have to offer free training on 3 horses for a year for me to consider it.

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 09:05 AM

Spaulding, I understand what you say about avoiding the high two-figure or three figure stud fee, but that's still a bad plan (provided you can afford the high stud fee of course).

Let's say this horse wins another and is a hot Derby prospect. Or wins a G1 or the Derby and becomes a stallion prospect. That male side of the pedigree will value him at half what they'd get if he was by a top sire, and now we're talking millions of difference in value. Even if you breed to race, you've got to (to the best of your financial situation) set your horse up to be as commercially viable as possible as a breeding prospect.

Frost king 01-03-2018 09:21 AM

All you have to look at is California Chrome. He is basically bred to be a Cal-rat. Even though he proved on the track to be otherwise, he is still treated in the industry as one.

GMB@BP 01-03-2018 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256593)
That's shocking. How does Baffert get these owners of good mares to go to stallions he has an interest in? No way would I send a mare of that caliber to a $2,500 California stallion.

I think there is some points lost here.

The Earnhardts are from Arizona and have been long long time clients of Baffert, they own like 30 car dealerships here in the state. They have had a ton of success with Baffert.

I also believe that Misremembered was one of their horses as well, or they had a interest in him, so it was one of their mares going to a stallion they benifit to have some success with.

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMB@BP (Post 2256743)
I think there is some points lost here.

The Earnhardts are from Arizona and have been long long time clients of Baffert, they own like 30 car dealerships here in the state. They have had a ton of success with Baffert.

I also believe that Misremembered was one of their horses as well, or they had a interest in him, so it was one of their mares going to a stallion they benifit to have some success with.

He raced for Baffert's wife and George Jacobs.

As for the other, it's not disloyal to your trainer to breed a mare as it should be bred rather than send it to a cheap and non-commercial stallion owned by the trainer's wife.

VigorsTheGrey 01-03-2018 12:24 PM

Compared with Kentucky, California's breeding program / stallions is not very good....California really needs a Tapit or some other star to headline the roster. It has to start somewhere, hopefully with a California bred stallion...anything Bob and his connections can do in this regard is very welcome...Ax Man wasn't a foal to Candy Ride but to one of his sons, Misremembered.

If Misremembered stays in California as a Stallion, that's a good thing...the discussion of who Ax Man's Dam ought to have been breed to is really a moot point now...and the actual results/ outcome might just be a real good thing...besides there is nothing terribly wrong with a guy following the path of his own interests and the interests of his connections as well....just another opportunity among many...I wish Bob the best regardless....he's done a lot for the sport.

GMB@BP 01-03-2018 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256766)
He raced for Baffert's wife and George Jacobs.

As for the other, it's not disloyal to your trainer to breed a mare as it should be bred rather than send it to a cheap and non-commercial stallion owned by the trainer's wife.

You have no idea of the deals and arrangements that may have been made in regards to anything regarding this deal.

The bottom line is it seems to have been a great stallion selection. The rest is just message board fodder.

Spalding No! 01-03-2018 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256726)
Spaulding, I understand what you say about avoiding the high two-figure or three figure stud fee, but that's still a bad plan (provided you can afford the high stud fee of course).

Let's say this horse wins another and is a hot Derby prospect. Or wins a G1 or the Derby and becomes a stallion prospect. That male side of the pedigree will value him at half what they'd get if he was by a top sire, and now we're talking millions of difference in value. Even if you breed to race, you've got to (to the best of your financial situation) set your horse up to be as commercially viable as possible as a breeding prospect.

Sure, but my guess is that the Earnhardts are not interested in a lot of upfront investment especially given their success has essentially been achieved with modestly-bred horses from the getgo.

As far as stallion prospects, they must have made out pretty well on Indian Charlie, with whom I believe they were able to secure a stud deal prior to his Kentucky Derby race (which proved to be his last start). That horse had the pedigree of a Cal-bred. So it's believable from their perspective that if a horse shows enough talent, the stud deal will materialize regardless of bloodlines.

The Earnhardts actually bred Indian Blessing to a top stallion in Tapit and got a colt, Ten Blessings, that displayed Grade 1 ability (placed in the Malibu), but has been too injury plagued to be a certifiable stallion prospect in KY--at least for now as he is still in training. They also bred Shameful to Empire Maker and got Maker Or Breaker, who had to go to AZ to get black type, then died before she could produce a foal. So up to this point, their experience has not been great when ponying up for the higher stud fees.

Nevertheless, if they wanted a quick return on investment, the easiest thing to do would to breed Shameful (an aging mare) to Tapit or whoever and sell the foal. That's why I presume they are more interested in racing and hoping lightning strikes twice (or 3 times if you count the filly).


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