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-   -   Odds changes during races WHAT A JOKE (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142423)

molson721 12-22-2017 09:57 PM

Odds changes during races WHAT A JOKE
 
Racing continues to ignore YET ANOTHER OF MANY problems they have been ignoring for DECADES! Another race where I placed a substantial win bet on a horse that was 11-1 when loading, 7-1 after the break and turned for home at 4-1. I am done wagering ON ALL TRACKS FOR THE REST OF THE NIGHT! Problems like this and SO MANY OTHERS THAT ARE IGNORED BY RACE TRACKS ARE ANOTHER REASON WHY WE NEED 1 HEAD OF ALL RACING.
Now I know why I have wagered less and less over the last 3 years. Maybe I should go to a casino! From what I hear, they treat the customer better than horse racing does. Then again, when did racing ever give a s*** about the customer. I will never try to get anybody interested in this sport.

Hey you racing morons at the top??? Keep kissing the ass of the wealthy like you did at the Del Mar Breeders Cup and listening to morons like Bobby Flay who has led and supported the price increases for food, parking and entrance fees to the race tracks of New York. The blue collar bettor is your bread and butter yet YOU CONTINUE TO TREAT US LIKE GARBAGE. My new years resolution is to cut my betting in half yet again until I see positive changes but i won't hold my breath. I'm in my 30's and if racing doesn't listen to my demographic, racing will be gone by 2030 and to be honest, I won't give a s***!

Augenj 12-22-2017 10:12 PM

I don't disagree with anything you said and I don't know what track you bet but... is there a chance your "substantial" win bet affected the odds? I'm thinking back many years to a quarter horse race at Los Alamitos when I bet $200 to win on a horse at 8/1 and he dropped to 2/1 at the start.

JustRalph 12-22-2017 10:25 PM

I believe itís been mentioned here multiple times that "blue collar" types are not the sports bread and butter

Fager Fan 12-22-2017 11:28 PM

Would it make a difference to you if the odds changed after you bet, regardless of whether it's during the running or in a 2 minute cutoff? So how does racing stop the odds from changing from the last minute betting?

cj 12-23-2017 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2253135)
Would it make a difference to you if the odds changed after you bet, regardless of whether it's during the running or in a 2 minute cutoff? So how does racing stop the odds from changing from the last minute betting?

Yes, there would still be odds changes. What there wouldn't be was any question that money is not coming in after the bell. You can't stop the odds changing after the pools close. You can stop the possibility of betting after the gate opens and the perception that it can happen.

VigorsTheGrey 12-23-2017 01:30 AM

How is the betting exchange in New Jersey able to pull off in-race betting, even during the stretch run...?

How can the computer networks process the bets in so short a time when most video feeds have delays built into them.?

Fager Fan 12-23-2017 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2253142)
Yes, there would still be odds changes. What there wouldn't be was any question that money is not coming in after the bell. You can't stop the odds changing after the pools close. You can stop the possibility of betting after the gate opens and the perception that it can happen.

Right, but it sounds like his complaint is that the odds dropped after he bet.

I understand the perception problem with odds dropping during the running, but I've never heard a call for betting to close 1 minute prior. Maybe I've missed it.

dilanesp 12-23-2017 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2253142)
Yes, there would still be odds changes. What there wouldn't be was any question that money is not coming in after the bell. You can't stop the odds changing after the pools close. You can stop the possibility of betting after the gate opens and the perception that it can happen.

+1

Tom 12-23-2017 09:33 AM

Steve Byk has addressed this many times - something the trak totally ignore.
Like their "timing" systems (:pound:), the tote systems are antiquated. X,Y and Z have to occur before the odds are updated.

The tracks have money to waste on 5 horse stakes races but not a dime to address the integrity of the game, which has very little imho. Customer is foreign word to the racing pea brains.

Fager Fan 12-23-2017 09:47 AM

He's complained about it many times? That's great, but what's the solution? The only one I know of is to stop wagering 1 minute or so before post. Is that what you all want, and if so, why don't you publicly call for that?

Tom 12-23-2017 09:54 AM

Because racing doesn't give a crap what we want or think.
Those whores at GP would be running the race at midnight if they thought there was sawbuck left out there.

Byk was not complaining, he was explaining why it happens.

Fager Fan 12-23-2017 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 2253184)
Because racing doesn't give a crap what we want or think.
Those whores at GP would be running the race at midnight if they thought there was sawbuck left out there.

Byk was not complaining, he was explaining why it happens.

As if an explanation helps solve your problem? I'm asking you all what you think the answer is. Do you want to cut it off a minute prior to post? Or do you want to be able to bet right up to the gate opening? What is your answer to solve the problem ? I have a sneaking suspicion that you all will fuss about a cut off prior to post, leaving no solution that will satisfy you.

Tom 12-23-2017 11:35 AM

I would like them fix the tote system and also stop betting 1 minute before post time. It will never happen - customers do not matter in horse racing.

lamboguy 12-23-2017 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 2253227)
I would like them fix the tote system and also stop betting 1 minute before post time. It will never happen - customers do not matter in horse racing.

truer words have never been spoken


merry christmas

onefast99 12-23-2017 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2253144)
How is the betting exchange in New Jersey able to pull off in-race betting, even during the stretch run...?

How can the computer networks process the bets in so short a time when most video feeds have delays built into them.?

The "exchange" system is a separate system from the pari-mutuel system. The "exchange" system is based on layers and backers, the layer is the one who believes the event will not happen(bet against) while the backer believes the event will happen(bet for). I have played the exchange about 8 times now each and every time it becomes easier. You are betting as the race is in progress
The odds are about 20% better for the "exchange" many of the times than the pari-mutuels. "Exchange" has a takeout of only 12% as well.

VigorsTheGrey 12-23-2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefast99 (Post 2253240)
The "exchange" system is a separate system from the pari-mutuel system. The "exchange" system is based on layers and backers, the layer is the one who believes the event will not happen(bet against) while the backer believes the event will happen(bet for). I have played the exchange about 8 times now each and every time it becomes easier. You are betting as the race is in progress
The odds are about 20% better for the "exchange" many of the times than the pari-mutuels. "Exchange" has a takeout of only 12% as well.

Thanks, yes...the exchange is a different system...I was just wondering how the timing of betting on horses running down the stretch works in real time...

Now if I was at the track, what, do I make the wager when I see my horse 3 lengths ahead and drawing away...? Sounds pretty good to me, but by then have all the layers jumped ship and are now on board with my horse also so we all get 2/5 odds..

But mainly I was interested in what hardware and connections people use to get in these last second bets...some of the tv feeds that I see have 1 minute or more delays in broadcast time so by the time you see the horses in the stretch the race is already over in reality, so how can they still allow betting to occur...

onefast99 12-23-2017 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2253256)
Thanks, yes...the exchange is a different system...I was just wondering how the timing of betting on horses running down the stretch works in real time...

Now if I was at the track, what, do I make the wager when I see my horse 3 lengths ahead and drawing away...? Sounds pretty good to me, but by then have all the layers jumped ship and are now on board with my horse also so we all get 2/5 odds..

But mainly I was interested in what hardware and connections people use to get in these last second bets...some of the tv feeds that I see have 1 minute or more delays in broadcast time so by the time you see the horses in the stretch the race is already over in reality, so how can they still allow betting to occur...

If you are in NJ go to 4njbets.com there is a tutorial on this as well on the betfair site. If there is a direct match for your bet it will be placed. I haven't encountered yet where the bet wasn't taken.

JohnGalt1 12-23-2017 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 2253227)
I would like them fix the tote system and also stop betting 1 minute before post time.

Didn't all tracks do this for awhile after the pick 6 scandal?

cj 12-23-2017 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnGalt1 (Post 2253296)
Didn't all tracks do this for awhile after the pick 6 scandal?

Some definitely did, not sure if it was all of them. However, foolish bettors complained so much they stopped. We reap what we sow.

dilanesp 12-23-2017 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2253310)
Some definitely did, not sure if it was all of them. However, foolish bettors complained so much they stopped. We reap what we sow.

People hate being shut out. I was shut out at Aqueduct yesterday when my voucher was stuck in a machine and it took the guy 5 minutes to get to the machine and fix it. (It saved me money. :) )

castaway01 12-23-2017 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2253256)
Thanks, yes...the exchange is a different system...I was just wondering how the timing of betting on horses running down the stretch works in real time...

Now if I was at the track, what, do I make the wager when I see my horse 3 lengths ahead and drawing away...? Sounds pretty good to me, but by then have all the layers jumped ship and are now on board with my horse also so we all get 2/5 odds..

But mainly I was interested in what hardware and connections people use to get in these last second bets...some of the tv feeds that I see have 1 minute or more delays in broadcast time so by the time you see the horses in the stretch the race is already over in reality, so how can they still allow betting to occur...

If you try to bet on a horse with a three-length lead entering the stretch on the NJ exchange, you MIGHT get the bet matched but it will be at 1-100 odds, not 2-5 (the lowest odds are 1.01-1, and that's what a horse with a three-length lead at that point in the race will be at). A few people will lay that because more than 1 out of 100 times a horse with a lead will stop late or something else bizarre will happen. It's really not the lucrative money-making idea it might seem for either side.

I have never seen a TV feed that is 1 minute behind. It might be a few seconds, but I guess that's a chance you take if you want to bet on the exchange. As OneFast said, it's not exactly revolutionary technology---Betfair has done in-race wagering in Europe for years.

cj 12-23-2017 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp (Post 2253317)
People hate being shut out. I was shut out at Aqueduct yesterday when my voucher was stuck in a machine and it took the guy 5 minutes to get to the machine and fix it. (It saved me money. :) )

If the time the pools will close is now known and someone still gets shut out they are not very bright.

Robert Fischer 12-23-2017 05:02 PM

The hourly workers at Gulfstream Park would never allow this.

molson721 12-23-2017 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2253135)
Would it make a difference to you if the odds changed after you bet, regardless of whether it's during the running or in a 2 minute cutoff? So how does racing stop the odds from changing from the last minute betting?

Today's computers can process information almost instantly. They are close to coming up with computer driven driver-less cars. You can place an order on the New York stock exchange or a wager on a race seconds before the race goes off and after you hit send, the order goes through almost instantly. To think there is nothing wrong with this shows age, a lack of today's computer abilities or both. I hope that doesn't come off as an insult because it is not meant to be. Are the people calculating the odds using an abacus?? Its called technology and there is no excuse for this. I would not have wagered what I did if the horse was closer to 4-1 instead of 11-1 at post time. For theodds to change twice during a 5 furlong sprint is ridiculous. It isn't difficult USING MODERN TECHNOLOGY to update the odds every 30 seconds especially close to post time. By the way, significant for me is a $50(not enough to cause the drop in odds) win bet instead of the usual $10-15 plus a few smaller exotics and my win bet was placed after the first horse was loaded. I wager the same amount every day and try to be disciplined in my betting but sometimes when I think I am getting a great price, I go against what I usually wager so I am not a big fish but the blue collar guy racing doesn't really care about.

PaceAdvantage 12-23-2017 07:52 PM

It's not a case of updating the odds...it's a case of having all these simulcast sites sending in their wagers to the host track instantly...something that doesn't happen currently.

The host track can't update the odds if it doesn't have accurate pool info. And it can't have accurate pool info until all the money is in.

Therein lies the problem.

Fager Fan 12-23-2017 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson721 (Post 2253448)
Today's computers can process information almost instantly. They are close to coming up with computer driven driver-less cars. You can place an order on the New York stock exchange or a wager on a race seconds before the race goes off and after you hit send, the order goes through almost instantly. To think there is nothing wrong with this shows age, a lack of today's computer abilities or both. I hope that doesn't come off as an insult because it is not meant to be. Are the people calculating the odds using an abacus?? Its called technology and there is no excuse for this. I would not have wagered what I did if the horse was closer to 4-1 instead of 11-1 at post time. For theodds to change twice during a 5 furlong sprint is ridiculous. It isn't difficult USING MODERN TECHNOLOGY to update the odds every 30 seconds especially close to post time. By the way, significant for me is a $50(not enough to cause the drop in odds) win bet instead of the usual $10-15 plus a few smaller exotics and my win bet was placed after the first horse was loaded. I wager the same amount every day and try to be disciplined in my betting but sometimes when I think I am getting a great price, I go against what I usually wager so I am not a big fish but the blue collar guy racing doesn't really care about.

Let's assume its instantaneous. Youre still in the same boat, you only learn of it quicker. If you're playing a last second game against the whales, it's tough for you to win.

If I played substantial money in this sport, I'd be demanding equal treatment for all bettors. It seems to me that the rebates, and huge rebates to whales,takes more money from smart players than anything else.

MonmouthParkJoe 12-23-2017 08:50 PM

Given that 40% of total pools come in during the last mtp, I cant see anyone stopping a minute before the race and closing the pools.

Bot wagering isnt as simple as saying computers process quickly. Its a bit more complex that that, but they have access to the pools allowing them to place wagers quickly.

It was already mentioned here ,but think of the entire US tote scenario similar to the way airlines are set up. Certain ones have hubs in different areas of the country and always fly in and out even if it makes trips longer. Tote is similar, and having to have double hops before being pulled into the pools can create shifts in the end.

What track were you wagering on?

cj 12-23-2017 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MonmouthParkJoe (Post 2253487)
Given that 40% of total pools come in during the last mtp, I cant see anyone stopping a minute before the race and closing the pools.

You don't think people would adjust and realize 1 MTP was actually 1 MTP? They'd still bet 40% in the last minute, they'd just actually know when the 1 MTP is.

Whosonfirst 12-23-2017 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage (Post 2253474)
It's not a case of updating the odds...it's a case of having all these simulcast sites sending in their wagers to the host track instantly...something that doesn't happen currently.

The host track can't update the odds if it doesn't have accurate pool info. And it can't have accurate pool info until all the money is in.

Therein lies the problem.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
A track insider went over this in some detail a while back, maybe six months ago. My biggest problem has never been the shifting odds, but getting my horse across the finish line first.

therussmeister 12-23-2017 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2253490)
You don't think people would adjust and realize 1 MTP was actually 1 MTP? They'd still bet 40% in the last minute, they'd just actually know when the 1 MTP is.

Just like people betting Gulfstream know that 0 mtp = 5 mtp, or 8 mtp if it is the start of the rainbow 6.

Fox 12-23-2017 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson721 (Post 2253118)
Racing continues to ignore YET ANOTHER OF MANY problems they have been ignoring for DECADES! Another race where I placed a substantial win bet on a horse that was 11-1 when loading, 7-1 after the break and turned for home at 4-1. I am done wagering ON ALL TRACKS FOR THE REST OF THE NIGHT! Problems like this and SO MANY OTHERS THAT ARE IGNORED BY RACE TRACKS ARE ANOTHER REASON WHY WE NEED 1 HEAD OF ALL RACING.
Now I know why I have wagered less and less over the last 3 years. Maybe I should go to a casino! From what I hear, they treat the customer better than horse racing does. Then again, when did racing ever give a s*** about the customer. I will never try to get anybody interested in this sport.

Hey you racing morons at the top??? Keep kissing the ass of the wealthy like you did at the Del Mar Breeders Cup and listening to morons like Bobby Flay who has led and supported the price increases for food, parking and entrance fees to the race tracks of New York. The blue collar bettor is your bread and butter yet YOU CONTINUE TO TREAT US LIKE GARBAGE. My new years resolution is to cut my betting in half yet again until I see positive changes but i won't hold my breath. I'm in my 30's and if racing doesn't listen to my demographic, racing will be gone by 2030 and to be honest, I won't give a s***!

Any reason you haven't identified the park and race that upset you? I'd like to know which one it was. Thx.

dilanesp 12-24-2017 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2253490)
You don't think people would adjust and realize 1 MTP was actually 1 MTP? They'd still bet 40% in the last minute, they'd just actually know when the 1 MTP is.

Actually, when I started playing the horses, NYRA's post times were to the minute accurate. (Marshall Cassidy used to say "it is NOW post time!" during the middle of the load usually.) And NYRA had plenty of handle.

TonyK@HSH 12-24-2017 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2253310)
Some definitely did, not sure if it was all of them. However, foolish bettors complained so much they stopped. We reap what we sow.

I believe it was CD that made a valiant attempt to close betting at post time. Not only did customers complain about being shut out, but the handle was noticeably impacted. Hard to ask a business to take steps that will reduce revenues.

cj 12-24-2017 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp (Post 2253547)
Actually, when I started playing the horses, NYRA's post times were to the minute accurate. (Marshall Cassidy used to say "it is NOW post time!" during the middle of the load usually.) And NYRA had plenty of handle.

They still are, but the only difference now is they stay open if there is an issue with a horse or with the load. But NYRA keeps it to a minimum. People adapt to the rules in place.

cj 12-24-2017 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyK@HSH (Post 2253551)
I believe it was CD that made a valiant attempt to close betting at post time. Not only did customers complain about being shut out, but the handle was noticeably impacted. Hard to ask a business to take steps that will reduce revenues.

Would have been short term in my opinion. Could be people also weren't betting because, you know, the pools had just been exposed as hackable.

JohnGalt1 12-24-2017 10:47 AM

Instead of shutting off the tote at the start of the race, shut off betting when the first horse is loaded and the gate is shut.

Dave Schwartz 12-24-2017 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnGalt1 (Post 2253570)
Instead of shutting off the tote at the start of the race, shut off betting when the first horse is loaded and the gate is shut.

Odds would still be changing with that arrangement but it is a step in the right direction. It would not change the impact, but would prevent late changes after the gate opened as well as the perception of cheating in every race.

biggestal99 12-24-2017 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VigorsTheGrey (Post 2253144)
How is the betting exchange in New Jersey able to pull off in-race betting, even during the stretch run...?

How can the computer networks process the bets in so short a time when most video feeds have delays built into them.?

Mostly bot betting.

The numbers change quickly.

Think long: think wrong.

I have a lot of fun in running betting.

I am mostly laying confirmed quitters.

I have a price in mind I post it at just after the start most of the time it is matched by a bot.

Love stealing money from the bots.

Bots is stupid. They donít know quitters.

Allan

biggestal99 12-24-2017 11:31 AM

This is why small players need the x, betting at fixed odds is just great.

Never, ever, worry about odds dropping again for the rest of my life.

My advice is to move to jersey and put all this odds dropping crap to bed.

Itís a tremendous way of wagering.

Allan

biggestal99 12-24-2017 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onefast99 (Post 2253240)
The "exchange" system is a separate system from the pari-mutuel system. The "exchange" system is based on layers and backers, the layer is the one who believes the event will not happen(bet against) while the backer believes the event will happen(bet for). I have played the exchange about 8 times now each and every time it becomes easier. You are betting as the race is in progress
The odds are about 20% better for the "exchange" many of the times than the pari-mutuels. "Exchange" has a takeout of only 12% as well.

Have you checked out the value review.

Here are some of the top ones. Way more than 20%

1st race at remington Park December 11.

Winner goes off at 43-1, great right. Lol

Exchange pays off at 189-1

Allan


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