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-   -   We Hate Bush/McCain, and We Don't Trust Obama, Then What (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48074)

pktruckdriver 06-22-2008 12:45 AM

We Hate Bush/McCain, and We Don't Trust Obama, Then What
 
Now hate may be, not for me, too strong a word, but we aren't happy with what GWB did for us and what McCain will do, which is the same thing GWB is doing, correct? Of Course


And we can not Trust Osama/Obama or whatever his name is, yet "We the People of the United States Of America" have chosen these 2 People to be our next elected President, Why?

Or have we really chosen these two or were they chosen for us , by the true powers that be, which certainly ain't the People of this country, but may not even be American's???

This country has not been ours for 8yrs now, I mean look to 4yrs ago, we could only find Kerry to oust GWB, heck anyone else would have easily won, I mean anyone else but Kerry, even me, or you. But powers that be put up Kerry for the Job.

When will the People of this country say enough is enough and stand up again, will it ever happen, I think not, look how quickly GWB broke down this country in all facets and quitely took away all our rights in the process, do you even know what he did, do know your rights today are no longer what they use to be, just 10 yrs ago, heck even 2yrs ago either, my god we have lost so much so fast.

Still this the USof A and we can still stand up and Say Enough, we could but we won't, even if we tried , we'd be put down becuase we had those right taken from us, due to Homeland Security reasons, yep, check it out.


If we hate things so much WHY DON"T WE CHANGE THINGS, WHY???? Because we can't, we don't run things anymore, the elite power brokers do, and do so right out in the open, for all to see.

Example , look at Haliburton, many many more Companies like them Exxon, GE, and even foreign Companies too BP, and Dubai World Group, heck they own America not us.


Stand up and do what, it is too late, now we just live with it.

Too much coffee tonight, enough for now.

Secretariat 06-22-2008 01:30 AM

I admire your post.

The truth is GW has messed this country up so bad, no matter who is elected will inherit a disaster. This is why I have decided to vote for McCain. Four more years of this, and I figure no Republican will ever get elected again. And with McCain we are essentially getting the exact same MidEast policy, and his economic polciy is similar to Bush which is trickle down or pennies to the poor and Euros to the rich. McCain will at least let Mexican immigrants across the border, and try to do something about global warming, but whoever gets elected in 2008 will face a fiscal disaster next year. And if GW invades Iran (or selectively assists Israel to do it), it will get worse.

But vote your conscience.

wonatthewire1 06-22-2008 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secretariat
I admire your post.

The truth is GW has messed this country up so bad, no matter who is elected will inherit a disaster. This is why I have decided to vote for McCain. Four more years of this, and I figure no Republican will ever get elected again. And with McCain we are essentially getting the exact same MidEast policy, and his economic polciy is similar to Bush which is trickle down or pennies to the poor and Euros to the rich. McCain will at least let Mexican immigrants across the border, and try to do something about global warming, but whoever gets elected in 2008 will face a fiscal disaster next year. And if GW invades Iran (or selectively assists Israel to do it), it will get worse.

But vote your conscience.

Hey Sec

3 Questions for you

1. What do you (you personally) feel would be an equitable policy for the "poor"?

2. If you leave the borders completely open, then there will be much less "cash" to distribute to the poor - thinking it through on that point or should the govt simply print more money thereby weakening it further than it already is?

We get a litany of sound bites from you - but nothing concrete...are you running for office?

jballscalls 06-22-2008 11:30 AM

your going to end up having to vote for McCain. Gore/Kerry/Obama, thanks for some great options!

prospector 06-22-2008 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jballscalls
your going to end up having to vote for McCain. Gore/Kerry/Obama, thanks for some great options!

i don't like mccain, but you're right...we are at war and i'd never trust obama in charge of our defenses..

Dave Schwartz 06-22-2008 12:09 PM

Quote:

The truth is GW has messed this country up so bad, no matter who is elected will inherit a disaster. This is why I have decided to vote for McCain.
Sec,

I am impressed... there you are, sounding so liberal in many of your posts, and yet you are capable of making a non-partisan decision, based upon "conscience."

You are precisely what this country needs more of.


Dave

Tom 06-22-2008 12:28 PM

Yeah, Dave Sec is OK.

But did he have to turn to McCain't????? :eek:;)

PaceAdvantage 06-22-2008 07:47 PM

I honestly find ptruckdriver and Sec's posts bordering on insanity, I truly do.
Quote:

I think not, look how quickly GWB broke down this country in all facets and quitely took away all our rights in the process, do you even know what he did, do know your rights today are no longer what they use to be, just 10 yrs ago, heck even 2yrs ago either, my god we have lost so much so fast.
All our rights? Are you mad? Which rights are gone? Obviously, not the right to be insane in public.

Last I checked, I have every single right I used to have before Bush took office. I can go anywhere I damn please, any damn time I wish. I can work for anyone I choose as long as they'll have me, or I can NOT work if I choose, stay home, and suck off the teat of the US Government....be a lazy ass, so to speak.

I can talk on the phone, I can type anything I damn please on the Internet, I can surf to all ungodly corners of the World Wide Web with no restrictions.

I can choose to drive any type of car I can afford (under Obama, this might change) and I can still choose to light my house with any light bulb I wish (again, who knows under Obama).

So tell me big boy, which rights of mine have been taken away by George W. Bush? Which right was taken away, that was SO important, I plum forgot about it?

Are you going to tell me how now I might be a bit more inconvenienced at the airport while they search me or my things? I haven't flown since 9/11, so this doesn't bother me one bit. Most normal folks only fly a handful of times every year, if that much, so again, this doesn't matter.

Are you going to tell me that Bush can listen to my telephone calls? I have news for you. The NSA has been listening to telephone calls way before Bush ever came to town.

What have I forgotten? Which precious right has been taken away from me? After all, you said ALL rights are now GONE!

INSANE! (or simply BSing)

boxcar 06-22-2008 08:20 PM

Sec, you're worried about rights? The "rights" Bush took from us? You are one sick puppy! You liberals are stealing rights from us left and right. Thanks to liberal judges, landowners no longer have rights over their own property. They must capitulate to some whacko, trumped up environmental concerns that severely limits what landowners can do on their own properties.

Or how about our right to do what we want in our own homes, such as smoke if we want? Some localities have outlawed that!

Or how 'bout Madame Speaker wanting to take away our right to choose our own lighting in our homes? She wants to make those mercury-filled bulbs mandatory by 2014, so that we can make the Chinese even richer!

Liberal judges and politicians are the scourge of this nation because that's exactly what they want to do -- increase the size of government, thereby giving government more rights at the People's expense! It is you liberals who think the Bill of Rights was written to limit the People's rights, remember!?

You are beyond clueless!

Boxcar

Dave Schwartz 06-22-2008 08:43 PM

Quote:

Yeah, Dave Sec is OK.

But did he have to turn to McCain't?????
Tom,

Would you prefer Barry?
:confused:

Dave

Tom 06-22-2008 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
Tom,

Would you prefer Barry?
:confused:

Dave

Cancer or AIDS?
What the hell kind of choice do we have?

There is NO ONE with any semblence of intelligence or leadership out there this time around.

I will not support McCain no matter what. Whatever happend thenext 4-8 years, we get what we deserve. We allow the sytem to put forth this ridiculous level of candidates, I no longer have any faith left in the government, the constitution, or the system, or most of all, the people.

I'm staying off airplanes and out of tall buildings. We will be hit again, and 9-11 will be drawfed. I am 100% confident. Only next time, don't expect me to rally 'round the flag and rhetoric. I'm on my own from now on. Drinking the kool aid is for suckers.

pktruckdriver 06-22-2008 09:19 PM

My rights loss
 
My Biggest right taken from me.


1. Well my right to buy fuel/desiel at a resonable rate has been taken away from me by GWB and his flunkies/that includes all of congress

2. My right to privacy is gone, in the name of Homeland security, yeah right. Airport security is needed, sure its inconvient, but well worth it, even if its not that good a check, and yes I got proof here too.

3. The right to be proud of my country's goverment and governmental policies, yeah how could I be proud of the mess GWB has done , we should be ashamed. I am , yes I am, ask yourself are you proud of your president/Congress?

Well there's 3 ok start with that.

Man some people get all rowled up over the simple things.

PaceAdvantage 06-22-2008 09:23 PM

Your number one problem is that you think #1 is a right. 'Nuff said.

Greyfox 06-22-2008 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom
Cancer or AIDS?
What the hell kind of choice do we have?

There is NO ONE with any semblence of intelligence or leadership out there this time around.
.

Tom, I don't care who you vote for, but vote.

Other questionable choices:
Bob Barr Libertarian
Chuck Baldwin Constitution
Cynthia McKinney Green
Ralph Nader Independent

What a cast of actors.

rolling 06-22-2008 09:49 PM

what rights where taken away by GW.

Dave Schwartz 06-22-2008 10:38 PM

Well, the good news is I get to vote for my candidate just like last time.

LOL - I don't even know what Nader stands for personally, but for me he stands for change. Come to think of it, I haven't voted for a Rebup or Dem since before Reagan's time.


I am by no means an anarchist... (evidenced by the fact that I support whoever gets elected. Okay, W has been tough and so was Bill.) ... but I want change.

And by "change," I mean "real change." I don't mean "the liberal way" or the "conservative way."

I mean that I want the elected to serve their country rather than big business.


I vote for CAMPAIGN REFORM. (Where is that running?)


Dave

Tom 06-22-2008 10:52 PM

Iwill vote for someone, something, but it will not be McCain. A voe for Mcain is a vote for the mindless morons who have taken over the republican party. The message to them must be loud and clear - you guys are NOT supported at all. You all suck eggs and we will not voe for you if you do not represent OUR views. The current repub party must be totally destroyed and burried.

\

Secretariat 06-23-2008 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
I honestly find ptruckdriver and Sec's posts bordering on insanity, I truly do.All our rights? Are you mad? Which rights are gone? Obviously, not the right to be insane in public.

Last I checked, I have every single right I used to have before Bush took office.

....

So tell me big boy, which rights of mine have been taken away by George W. Bush? Which right was taken away, that was SO important, I plum forgot about it?

According to the Associated Press, here is a list.

FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.

FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.

RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.

boxcar 06-23-2008 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom
Iwill vote for someone, something, but it will not be McCain. A voe for Mcain is a vote for the mindless morons who have taken over the republican party. The message to them must be loud and clear - you guys are NOT supported at all. You all suck eggs and we will not voe for you if you do not represent OUR views. The current repub party must be totally destroyed and burried.

\


:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

U da man, Tom! I'd vote fer you too.

Boxcar

boxcar 06-23-2008 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyfox
Tom, I don't care who you vote for, but vote.

Other questionable choices:
Bob Barr Libertarian
Chuck Baldwin Constitution
Cynthia McKinney Green
Ralph Nader Independent

What a cast of actors.

What about NoBama!? (Geesh, this guy don't get no respect.)

Maybe I'll vote for him. This country needs a very loud wake up call to awaken it from its mental lethargy (and maybe even its moral relativism) -- to remind everyone of the Carter days and just how bad that era really was.

Boxcar

riskman 06-23-2008 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar
:ThmbUp: :ThmbUp:

U da man, Tom! I'd vote fer you too.

Boxcar

So the other third party candidates are less moronic than McCain? Granted the choices are dismal and after this massive, fraudulent,pathetic excuse of an administration who has done NOTHING to encourage conservatism --one could be desperate enough to vote for the character in "Weekend at Bernies".

WinterTriangle 06-23-2008 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz

I mean that I want the elected to serve their country rather than big business.

Dave

You and the poster who started this topic seem to have figured it out about right.

Don't let the Free Traders hear you talk like that. Where would we be without unrestricted trade, no intervention, and free flow of labor and capital across nations? Where would we be without Globalism, immigrants, off-shoring and out-sourcing?

But hey, that's free trade. It creates winners. And losers.

I just don't think they forsaw that *we* would be the losers. :eek:

Sitting on a historically high negative trade balance with China. And the value of our dollar dropping like a big rock.

(When I pointed this out 2 decades ago, I was called a socialist).

Our masters are huge, multi-national corporations. And, we must do their bidding. BUY STUFF! :lol:

And.........whatever you do.........make sure you live beyond your means. Without the constant desire for MORE MORE MORE (with the credit card companies providing the means) ........where would we be? It's your patriotic duty to do this.

No seriously, folks. My immediate remedy is not something politicians can give us. What we need is for Americans to start living a more reasonable lifestyles, live simply within their means......not everyone *needs* granite countertops and 500 sq. ft. kitchens.

If we sink further into recession, or even depression.....those who have lived within their means, who have had the self-discipline to do so, who find contentment in family and sports and community and living simply......will weather it. What little they own, is theirs.

Those who own everything thru debt, loans, and credit cards --- will be in dire straits.

I think about the way I was raised in the 50s......and my lifestyle is still based on those very conservative, old fashioned values.

But the bright side is that gambling seems to do very well during these times. :) I'd sure rather bet on the horses than the politicians anyway.:) At least you might get something back.

riskman 06-23-2008 02:13 AM

The candidates. They are all flawed. Underneath their public congeniality, they all have a hard edge and a ruthless ambition that has nothing to do with the public welfare or the good of the country. They want to win. Right now, that's their obsession.

It isn't necessary to like a candidate. It isn't necessary to imagine that he or she is your friend. All people have to do is make a calculated decision that this particular candidate is more likely to make a better president than the others.

Then, having cast your vote, you go about your business, because the American people have virtually no control of their government once Election Day passes. Our republican form of government gives complete power to the officeholders for their full terms. Unless you contributed big, big bucks, you aren't likely to receive any personal attention from any of them except on his or her terms.

Another point to keep in mind is that all of the problems the candidates are now promising to solve-- are problems they themselves created.

PaceAdvantage 06-23-2008 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Secretariat
FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION: Government may monitor religious and political institutions without suspecting criminal activity to assist terror investigations.

Are you saying every single religious or political institution is currently under investigation for terrorist-related activities? Even my local Roman Catholic church? I didn't think so....so what right of mine was taken away again?

Quote:

FREEDOM OF INFORMATION: Government has closed once-public immigration hearings, has secretly detained hundreds of people without charges, and has encouraged bureaucrats to resist public records questions.
Are you baffling me with bullshit? What right of mine here was taken away?

Quote:

FREEDOM OF SPEECH: Government may prosecute librarians or keepers of any other records if they tell anyone that the government subpoenaed information related to a terror investigation.
Again, what right of mine was taken away here? My right to be a librarian and inform a suspected terrorist he might be under investigation? Huh?

Quote:

RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION: Government may monitor federal prison jailhouse conversations between attorneys and clients, and deny lawyers to Americans accused of crimes.
This one sounds meaty. Hasn't all telephone calls and meetings been monitored in jail? This doesn't mean they can use anything recorded in a court of law. Attorney/Client privilege still holds.

How many Americans have been denied a lawyer when accused of a crime?

Quote:

FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE SEARCHES: Government may search and seize Americans' papers and effects without probable cause to assist terror investigation.
I can safely say that 99% of Americans will not be a part of any terror investigation. But hey, I guess you got me here....

Quote:

RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL: Government may jail Americans indefinitely without a trial.
No they may not. How many Americans have been jailed indefinitely without a trial? Are you saying if I burn down my neighbors house, I will sit in jail forever without a trial? I think not....

Quote:

RIGHT TO LIBERTY: Americans may be jailed without being charged or being able to confront witnesses against them.
Really? If I am accused of stealing a car, are you saying I won't be able to confront the person who accuses me of stealing their car? I think not....

Dave Schwartz 06-23-2008 03:08 AM

Quote:

If we sink further into recession, or even depression.....those who have lived within their means, who have had the self-discipline to do so, who find contentment in family and sports and community and living simply......will weather it. What little they own, is theirs.
I do not see this as the answer to anything. If we really enter a depression, your frugality will not even save you let alone the country.

We're sliding downward and the change that is needed is not about "living within ones means."


Just my opinion.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

WinterTriangle 06-23-2008 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
I do not see this as the answer to anything. If we really enter a depression, your frugality will not even save you let alone the country.

I admit to being a bit hyperbolic there. :) I was eluding to a certain amount of self-sufficiency making things a bit less painful.

Actually, Dave, energy is what worries me the most. The rest of the political stuff is on the back-burner for me. We cannot survive the massive bankruptcies that will result from lack of, or unaffordable, fuel. It affects every sector.

Richard Branson, the famed entrepreneur seems visibly "shaken" by the reality that we cannot go forward in our present dependency on oil. He's heavily invested in other forms of energy..but it appears it may not be soon enough. Branson was on some CNN special and he says we've had absolutely terrible leadership in this regard......non existent, actually. Many Americans don't realize that as China is emerging, they are using massive quantities of oil/gas. They are, and will be competing with us for oil. Exploration, drilling and building refineries will take at least a decade. We can't wait that long. And we don't know when THAT would run out. Heck, we don't even know what the Arabs have......how much oil is down in the ground there? Maybe less than we think?

It's a very dismal situation. If you go to Brazil, they are happily skipping along without having to use much. That was our biggest mistake.....giving serious consideration to getting off oil was something we should have started doing 30 years ago. (Of course, if the world's major economies collapse, nobody will be skipping along whether they use oil or not).

A new President in 2008 is not going to *fix* this. For me, this election is just about not having Bush. It's a step forward, but no panacea.

pktruckdriver 06-23-2008 08:50 AM

Right to be fondled
 
Bossman


Quote:

Are you saying every single religious or political institution is currently under investigation for terrorist-related activities? Even my local Roman Catholic church? I didn't think so....so what right of mine was taken away again?
No but you have the right to be fondled in the Catholic church. How many settlements have been made by this church, the catholic church. Yet has anyone done time behind bars?? But many thousands have done therapy I'm sure, right?

Dave Schwartz 06-23-2008 10:55 AM

Winter,

Now you have made a staement that I can agree with.

Good post.

Dave

boxcar 06-23-2008 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riskman
So the other third party candidates are less moronic than McCain? Granted the choices are dismal and after this massive, fraudulent,pathetic excuse of an administration who has done NOTHING to encourage conservatism --one could be desperate enough to vote for the character in "Weekend at Bernies".

Are you suggesting Tom has been dead all along? :eek: :eek:

Boxcar

Tom 06-23-2008 11:45 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar
Are you suggesting Tom has been dead all along? :eek: :eek:

Boxcar

I think I will drill right here!

Oh my! A gusher!

delayjf 06-23-2008 12:49 PM

Quote:

No but you have the right to be fondled in the Catholic church. How many settlements have been made by this church, the catholic church. Yet has anyone done time behind bars?? But many thousands have done therapy I'm sure, right?
Is it your position that the Govenment is behind the Catholic Priest schandel? And yes, some have been criminally convicted, in fact one Priest was beatened to death while in Prison.

boxcar 06-23-2008 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom
I think I will drill right here!

Oh my! A gusher!

:lol: :lol: Just remember now: Just don't take any big bites out of my income.

Boxcar

Tom 06-23-2008 02:43 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Not me, but this guy might......the only thing that can stop him is a hanging chad! :lol:

PaceAdvantage 06-23-2008 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pktruckdriver
No but you have the right to be fondled in the Catholic church. How many settlements have been made by this church, the catholic church. Yet has anyone done time behind bars?? But many thousands have done therapy I'm sure, right?

So, you're changing the subject already?

GameTheory 06-23-2008 09:32 PM

That is not Barack in that image.

jognlope 06-23-2008 09:50 PM

Doesn't matter, whoever it is will not care any more about the working poor than the last person.

JustRalph 06-23-2008 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jognlope
Doesn't matter, whoever it is will not care any more about the working poor than the last person.


shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................!!! You are catching on to the Dem/Lib trap............L

Secretariat 06-24-2008 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage
I can safely say that 99% of Americans will not be a part of any terror investigation. But hey, I guess you got me here....

How many Americans have been jailed indefinitely without a trial?

As opposed to addressing each point which would take a long time, I'll answer fundamentally one, and point you to a site to review the entire history of this mess.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/t...es_patriot_act

Within this link is an excellent quote:

"Several congresspeople submit a list of 50 questions to Attorney General Ashcroft, asking him how the Patriot Act is being implemented (see October 26, 2001). [New York Times, 7/14/2002] For instance, they ask, How many times has the department requested records from libraries, bookstores and newspapers? How many roving wiretaps has the department requested? Ashcroft refuses to answer many of the questions, even though he is legally required to do "

In other words your assurances of 99% cannot be confirmed at all since former Attorney General Ashcroft would not even answer the simplest of questions regarding this. Gonzalez did the same citing National security.

This goes to the crux of your question. what rights have I lost? You may feel that nothing fundamentally has changed regarding your own personal loss of rights, but the government via the Patriot Act has been given a much wider leeway in ignoring your personal freedoms. And your right of redress is drastically diminished, as well as your ability to even know or find out. Even Freedom of Information requests are rountinely now ignored by this WH citing national security.

So how many have been affected? Truthfully, we do not know as the WH has refused to share that information with us. We know some of the most egregious cases, but since the WH refuses to reveal the number of times they have invoked the Patriot Act and the number of times they've used it as opposed to prior law we're left to simply "trust them" without any acountablility. The government is not required to list the number of false arrests of American citizens it makes.

We know from Iraq we cannot trust what this WH tells us. Even Scott McClellan has tried to get that message out that there was more interest in propaganda than information. Paul O'Neill tried to reveal the same, as did Richard Clarke.

So if you choose to beleive you've lost no fundamental rights as a citizen, then by all means keep beleiving it. This WH relies on people like yourself to keep beleiving that. Just as they did that Al queda and Saddam Hussein were intrinsically linked and Hussein had massive stockpiles of WMD's poised to send a mushroom cloud over our cities. I would have thought you'd have learned by now, but your beleifs are so entrenched with this administration that it is hard to admit that perhaps you may have been wrong about them.

They're out of office in a few months, and whoever is elected it will be a better America for the Bush team's exit. No one could ever convince you because you've already made up your mind. You've bought into their madness and now you spend your time still trying to justify it.

Tom 06-24-2008 08:24 AM

So Sec, what specific event is tied to your loss of any rights?

ddog 06-24-2008 12:06 PM

I know this, just as the FBI has admitted wide misuse and abuse of the Patriot Act regulations that granted them enhanced rights, that when you "give" any gvt an inch they will take a mile.

Proven in many ways and in all periods of history worldwide.
It is one of the truisms of life, when you grant gvt enhanced special rights because of a momentary fear you regret it down the road.
Human nature kicks in.

National Security is a gvt mandate, but that doesn't mean they are any better at that than managing the economy,welfare programs, you name it.


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