Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Go Back   Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board


Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board

Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com - Horse Racing Message Board (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/index.php)
-   Off Topic - General (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Benefits of Regulations (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143674)

hcap 03-08-2018 12:52 PM

Benefits of Regulations
 
OMB Report: Net Benefit of Regulations Is Huge.

Oh O.
Original OMB report.

https://www.eenews.net/assets/2018/0...ment_pm_01.pdf

Summarized......

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...tions-is-huge/

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade"

..The thing to note here is that the net benefits are all positive: that is, the benefits far outweigh the costs. This is because federal agencies don’t generally adopt regulations that have a net cost. The people being regulated may hate it, but they aren’t the target for this stuff. You and I are."

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-conte...2007_20161.gif

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-conte..._2007_2016.gif

Clocker 03-08-2018 01:07 PM

So the bureaucrats in Washington did a study of themselves to determine if the money we spend on them is worth it.

Amazingly, they found that they are indeed well worth it. :faint:

chadk66 03-08-2018 01:38 PM

:lol:

fast4522 03-08-2018 02:05 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287539)

Make a real nice sticker on one of these.

boxcar 03-08-2018 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287539)
OMB Report: Net Benefit of Regulations Is Huge.

Oh O.
Original OMB report.

https://www.eenews.net/assets/2018/0...ment_pm_01.pdf

Summarized......

https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-dr...tions-is-huge/

"Republicans hate regulations. Donald Trump hates regulations. OMB chief Mick Mulvaney hates regulations. So it must have killed him to publish the most recent report to Congress on the costs and benefits of major regulations. Unfortunately, there’s a regulation that requires it, so the report was submitted once again. Here are the estimated net benefits (benefits minus costs) of major regulations over the past decade"

..The thing to note here is that the net benefits are all positive: that is, the benefits far outweigh the costs. This is because federal agencies don’t generally adopt regulations that have a net cost. The people being regulated may hate it, but they aren’t the target for this stuff. You and I are."

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-conte...2007_20161.gif

https://www.motherjones.com/wp-conte..._2007_2016.gif

There should be a government regulation against worthless graphs and equally worthless posts that eat up precious bandwidth. :coffee:

thaskalos 03-08-2018 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar (Post 2287572)
There should be a government regulation against worthless graphs and equally worthless posts that eat up precious bandwidth. :coffee:

If that were the case...then both the religious threads here would have been deleted long ago.

Dave Schwartz 03-08-2018 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar (Post 2287572)
There should be a government regulation against worthless graphs and equally worthless posts that eat up precious bandwidth. :coffee:

And who gets to designate the ones that are worthless?

thaskalos 03-08-2018 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz (Post 2287580)
And who gets to designate the ones that are worthless?

Boxcar...of course! Who else has proven that he is guided by the "Holy Spirit"?

Dave Schwartz 03-08-2018 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2287582)
Boxcar...of course! Who else has proven that he is guided by the "Holy Spirit"?

I was thinking along the lines of Republicans (or Democrats) having all the correct answers.

... but get your point.

davew 03-08-2018 03:04 PM

For some reason I suspect the 'costs' of the regulations do not include all the employee, benefits, and facility costs (but I can not tell because of the nice graphs and figures shown).

elysiantraveller 03-08-2018 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287539)
...

Why bother...?

These same people LOVE regulations when Trump says to... like tariffs.

PaceAdvantage 03-08-2018 04:00 PM

Did you ever give anyone a "why bother" when they were arguing against Obama supporters? And you happened to agree with them?

I don't recall you ever being this snarky...ever...

But it's all good...just curious...

boxcar 03-08-2018 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz (Post 2287580)
And who gets to designate the ones that are worthless?

Why the government, of course, who Hcap implicitly trusts 24/7. :coffee:

Tom 03-08-2018 04:30 PM

This seems to be a pretty stupid article.
"Regulations" are not all equal in value or harm. A regulation has to be judged wholly on its own. Obviously, we need regulations. Obviously, we don't need to regulate everything.

We do know that over-regulating stifles business and costs money.

boxcar 03-08-2018 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz (Post 2287589)
I was thinking along the lines of Republicans (or Democrats) having all the correct answers.

Since neither do, this would argue very strongly for limited government -- not more of it with mega tons of regulations.

elysiantraveller 03-08-2018 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaceAdvantage (Post 2287625)
Did you ever give anyone a "why bother" when they were arguing against Obama supporters? And you happened to agree with them?

I don't recall you ever being this snarky...ever...

But it's all good...just curious...

Well I have to walk the fine line of consistency. ;)

Hcap and the Democrats love regulations when its Dodd-Frank, the EPA, CFPB, etc... but they hate them when Trump does it via Tariffs.

Then on the flipside we have people touting economic growth at the cutting of regulations and letting the market do its thing while then turning around and supporting tariffs and market controls the other way...

Take Tom's quote which is 1000% correct:

Quote:

We do know that over-regulating stifles business and costs money.
While that is universally true its only true around these parts depending on which guy you support and which regulations you're talking about.

Strange time indeed.

boxcar 03-08-2018 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2287582)
Boxcar...of course! Who else has proven that he is guided by the "Holy Spirit"?

Well...I would never presume to impose my will upon anyone, but hey...a born again Christian filled with the Holy Spirit would make eminently more sense than anyone who is son or daughter of the evil one. After all, "the foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men".

boxcar 03-08-2018 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2287575)
If that were the case...then both the religious threads here would have been deleted long ago.

Not necessarily. They are the only threads that contain other-worldly views that are viable alternatives to the tired, hackneyed, worn out, broken worldly
ones. :coffee:

AndyC 03-08-2018 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elysiantraveller (Post 2287645)
......Then on the flipside we have people touting economic growth at the cutting of regulations and letting the market do its thing while then turning around and supporting tariffs and market controls the other way...

I am all for letting the market do its thing provided both sides are playing by the same rules. Is it a "free market" when a country will only take American produced goods after a stiff duty has been charged?

mrhorseplayer 03-08-2018 05:51 PM

cant wait till America starts reaping the rewards from deregulation.

elysiantraveller 03-08-2018 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndyC (Post 2287656)
I am all for letting the market do its thing provided both sides are playing by the same rules. Is it a "free market" when a country will only take American produced goods after a stiff duty has been charged?

Provide examples...

If we're the best provider of those goods that country is just harming itself and it's citizens by charging those duties...

How many countries charge duties on our agricultural goods? I'll bet not many.

Tom 03-08-2018 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrhorseplayer (Post 2287665)
cant wait till America starts reaping the rewards from deregulation.

We already are.

mrhorseplayer 03-08-2018 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 2287677)
We already are.


yes, its going to keep getting better and thats great for everyone that likes to win.

hcap 03-09-2018 01:42 AM

I ran a shop. Found myself often sympathizing with many I hired. We were a custom shop. Skilled craftsman making expensive furniture and new first time projects.

Saw some awful accidents. Usually a matter of losing attention at as critical moment in the manufacturing process. I rose from the ranks of skilled crafstman but also acquired a technical education, supervising details and doing overall planning of specialty items as well as all projectsd and business direction.

Various machines, from table saws to rooters and heat forming devices, ovens and strip heaters required safety rules, and chemicals used needed understanding of health issues. Yes at times OSHA was a pain and impractical, but there would have been many more accidents without those regulations

Often as new technology advances old rules must be changed. Self interest of the business owner when narrowly focused naturally promotes AVOIDANCE of rules and regulation.

I learned rules and regulation are needed although not always applicable to all situations. Efficiency in creative manufacturing I did must be a balance between the abilities of the worker and the bottom line of the business.

"The Many Faces of Adam Smith"

http://economistsview.typepad.com/ec...ny_faces_.html

"Adam Smith's faith in the invisible hand has been exaggerated by modern commentators. Smith used the metaphor only once in "The Wealth of Nations," applied it narrowly and presented the idea with more than his usual number of caveats."
.................................................. ....

The invisible hand may not be smart enough to move an economy long term when "the law of accident" is stronger. A regulated economy moved us past the horrors of the The Triangle Shirtwaist Factor fire.

My Jewish/yiddish social conscience .......

In New York City on March 25, 1911 was the deadliest industrial disaster in the history of the city, and one of the deadliest in US history.


hcap 03-09-2018 02:42 AM


Inner Dirt 03-09-2018 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287801)
I ran a shop.

Saw some awful accidents. Usually a matter of losing attention at as critical moment in the manufacturing process.

They were probably poorly supervised or you kept people that should been shown the door.

I supervised hundreds of people in possibly dangerous manufacturing environments and in 20 years of working for the man before becoming self employed no one needed more than a band aid on my watch. I ran a tight ship when it came to safety.

Tom 03-09-2018 09:15 AM

Insurance premiums alone should do what the regulations were supposed to.

Safety was always Job #1 every day, at every meeting, at every shop floor huddle. Every internal audit I did had a section totally unrelated to the audit-target and devoted to general safety, even auditing accounting.

Safety doesn't add to the profit line, but lack of it can cost you more than you make.

hcap 03-09-2018 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt (Post 2287820)
They were probably poorly supervised or you kept people that should been shown the door.

I supervised hundreds of people in possibly dangerous manufacturing environments and in 20 years of working for the man before becoming self employed no one needed more than a band aid on my watch. I ran a tight ship when it came to safety.

Ever do custom shop work? Use table saws, routers, shapers or industrial ovens? Does not sound like you have.

Employer-Reported Workplace Injuries and Illnesses – 2016

There were approximately 2.9 million nonfatal workplace injuries and illnesses reported by private industry employers in 2016, which occurred at a rate of 2.9 cases per 100 full-time equivalent (FTE) workers, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. (See www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ1_00.xlsx
and www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ2_00.xlsx.) Private industry employers reported nearly 48,500 fewer nonfatal injury and illness cases in 2016 compared to a year earlier, according to estimates from the
Survey of Occupational Injuries and Illnesses (SOII).


You know diddly squat.I doubt you ever filled out workers compensation insurgence reports either If you ran a "tight ship" sounds like the Titanic.

Tom 03-09-2018 09:25 AM

From my experience, a lot of those accidents are the result of employees failing to follow procedures and cutting corners.
When we would try to write up employees for not following the rules, guess who ALWAYS got involved and tried to stop us?

THe UAW.......:puke:

Inner Dirt 03-09-2018 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287843)
Ever do custom shop work? Use table saws, routers, shapers or industrial ovens? Does not sound like you have.

Employer-Reported Workplace Injuries and Illnesses – 2016

There were approximately 2.9 million nonfatal workplace injuries and illnesses reported by private industry employers in 2016, which occurred at a rate of 2.9 cases per 100 full-time equivalent (FTE) workers, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. (See www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ1_00.xlsx
and www.bls.gov/web/osh/summ2_00.xlsx.) Private industry employers reported nearly 48,500 fewer nonfatal injury and illness cases in 2016 compared to a year earlier, according to estimates from the
Survey of Occupational Injuries and Illnesses (SOII).


You know diddly squat.I doubt you ever filled out workers compensation insurgence reports either If you ran a "tight ship" sounds like the Titanic.


Why don't you ever admit when you have stuck your foot in your mouth?
You said you "ran" the shop, then said you saw some awful accidents mostly caused by inattentiveness. Whose job is it to make sure the workforce pays attention at all times? You are right, I never filled out worker's compensation reports because no one on my watch needed more than a band aid.

I work with metal on the day job which is way more dangerous than woodworking. I have done plenty of woodworking on personal projects. I am positive I have used a lot more dangerous equipment than you have. I am a DIY guy that is pretty unmatched in the wide range of what I have done.

Inner Dirt 03-09-2018 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 2287846)
From my experience, a lot of those accidents are the result of employees failing to follow procedures and cutting corners.
When we would try to write up employees for not following the rules, guess who ALWAYS got involved and tried to stop us?

THe UAW.......:puke:

Fortunately I never worked in a union shop. I did work for an aerospace manufacturer that while non union had a lot of union like policies. I did get called in to human resources a few times for how I talked to people when I witnessed unsafe practices. If I got any back talk when bringing up safety issues I pretty much lost it.

hcap 03-09-2018 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom (Post 2287846)
From my experience, a lot of those accidents are the result of employees failing to follow procedures and cutting corners.
When we would try to write up employees for not following the rules, guess who ALWAYS got involved and tried to stop us?

THe UAW.......:puke:

Tom have you ever worked in a custom shop environment? I have done both assembly line mass manufacturing an custom work.
Do you use mandatory table saw guards. Often some physically small projects can not be done with most guards designed for standard size items.

There are ways to remain safe even in these projects. However guards must be re-installed afterward. I've seen incompetent workers work without guards on a regular basis. Not pretty.

FYI

The Occupational Safety and Health Administration was established in 1971. Since then, OSHA and our state partners, coupled with the efforts of employers, safety and health professionals, unions and advocates, have had a dramatic effect on workplace safety. Fatality and injury rates have dropped markedly. Although accurate statistics were not kept at the time, it is estimated that in 1970 around 14,000 workers were killed on the job. That number fell to approximately 4,340 in 2009. At the same time, U.S. employment has almost doubled and now includes over 130 million workers at more than 7.2 million worksites. Since the passage of the OSH Act, the rate of reported serious workplace injuries and illnesses has declined from 11 per 100 workers in 1972 to 3.6 per 100 workers in 2009. OSHA safety and health standards, including those for trenching, machine guarding, asbestos, benzene, lead, and bloodborne pathogens have prevented +
countless work-related injuries, illnesses and deaths. This timeline highlights key milestones in occupational safety and health history since the creation of OSHA.


Besides the article I linked to, stated there was a financial gain to the use of regulations. That includes safety regulaions and the late 1800's and early 20th century horrors like the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire closed the door popularly on robber baron type worker abuse.

Read The Jungle a 1906 novel written by the American journalist and novelist Upton Sinclair (1878–1968). Sinclair wrote the novel to portray the harsh conditions and exploited lives of immigrants in the United States in Chicago and similar industrialized cities. His primary purpose in describing the meat industry and its working ...
‎Upton Sinclair · ‎The Jungle (1914 film) · ‎Federal Meat Inspection Act

hcap 03-09-2018 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt
I work with metal on the day job which is way more dangerous than woodworking. I have done plenty of woodworking on personal projects. I am positive I have used a lot more dangerous equipment than you have. I am a DIY guy that is pretty unmatched in the wide range of what I have done.

I don't believe your boasting and if you know anything about skilled crafstmen (having been one or so you claim) it is human nature to loose attention from time to time, unless your superman like the dork-in-chief.

Of course it takes self awareness to know when one is faltering and to take a brief break. Seeing you have none, I wouldn't stand within 20 feet of you using a hammer and nails let alone a table saw

Inner Dirt 03-09-2018 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287866)
I don't believe your boasting and if you know anything about skilled crafstmen (having been one or so you claim) it is human nature to loose attention from time to time, unless your superman like the dork-in-chief.

Of course it takes self awareness to know when one is faltering and to take a brief break. Seeing you have none, I wouldn't stand within 20 feet of you using a hammer and nails let alone a table saw

You are the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, not me. I am not boasting, just being truthful. Why do you have to always condescend to people and call names like a 5 year old? What part of my so called "boasting" do you not believe? I don't think I claimed to be an astronaut or a rocket scientist.

hcap 03-09-2018 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt (Post 2287874)
You are the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, not me. I am not boasting, just being truthful. Why do you have to always condescend to people and call names like a 5 year old? What part of my so called "boasting" do you not believe? I don't think I claimed to be an astronaut or a rocket scientist.

You started this nonsense saying I did not supervise properly. You are the perfect candidate for "ignore" that ignorant a**hole

Inner Dirt 03-09-2018 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt (Post 2287874)
You are the one who stuck your foot in your mouth, not me. I am not boasting, just being truthful. Why do you have to always condescend to people and call names like a 5 year old? What part of my so called "boasting" do you not believe? I don't think I claimed to be an astronaut or a rocket scientist.


Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2287875)
You started this nonsense saying I did not supervise properly. You are the perfect candidate for "ignore" that ignorant a**hole


You are the one who admitted to not supervising properly, saying there were terrible accidents under your watch. Once again you resort to grade school name calling as I caught you putting your foot in your mouth and calling you out on it. If you are calling me ignorant direct me to an I.Q. test and we will both take it and publish the results.

hcap 03-09-2018 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt (Post 2287918)
You are the one who admitted to not supervising properly, saying there were terrible accidents under your watch. Once again you resort to grade school name calling as I caught you putting your foot in your mouth and calling you out on it. If you are calling me ignorant direct me to an I.Q. test and we will both take it and publish the results.

Did no such thing. You are lying . Let's stop this bullshit now

boxcar 03-09-2018 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inner Dirt (Post 2287850)
Why don't you ever admit when you have stuck your foot in your mouth?
You said you "ran" the shop, then said you saw some awful accidents mostly caused by inattentiveness. Whose job is it to make sure the workforce pays attention at all times? You are right, I never filled out worker's compensation reports because no one on my watch needed more than a band aid.

I work with metal on the day job which is way more dangerous than woodworking. I have done plenty of woodworking on personal projects. I am positive I have used a lot more dangerous equipment than you have. I am a DIY guy that is pretty unmatched in the wide range of what I have done.

Admittedly, I haven't been following this thread very closely, but I know from years of experience dealing with Hcap that he's very susceptible to contracting that nasty hoof-'n- mouth disease. The reason, I have unlurked now in this thread is because my truth sniff detector was set off by what you wrote about "inattentiveness" being the primary source of accidents in Hcap's shop. And then later, Hcap said it was "human nature" I guess to become unfocused. And this brings me to a question or two for Mr. 'cap.

Mr. 'cap sir, how would more government regulations (which is the topic of this thread), correct the problem of "inattentiveness"? Or how would more government regs change human nature? :coffee:

hcap 03-09-2018 04:39 PM

Box, you know zip about everything. Re-lurk and reread

boxcar 03-09-2018 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap (Post 2288043)
Box, you know zip about everything. Re-lurk and reread

Your non-answer is proof-positive that to this day you suffer from CHRONIC hoof-'n-mouth disease.

Thanks for playing.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved

» Advertisement
Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright 1999 - 2023 -- PaceAdvantage.Com -- All Rights Reserved
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program
designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.