Well, Boxcar, I would say that we have reached the point of diminishing returns in further discussion between us.

I have tried to say this to you in many ways - I will try one more time and then be finished.

I see myself as a servant of God; one who is constantly on alert for an indication from God that I should take action. And I DO get such indications. That is precisely how and why I got into this thread to begin with.

I am sure that you, too, see yourself as a servant of God as well. At no point do I doubt your love of or dedication to God. However, you appear to be more of a "supervisor" in God's workforce; one who decides what God wants done and takes action to get it done.

I doubt that we could ever come to a meeting of the minds on our respective beliefs.


Perhaps I would ask a simple question here - Despite all of your knowledge, do you think that anyone in this thread is prepared to make change in their beliefs because of what and how you post?

If not, then a second question... Why do you continue?


Personally, I hope that someone asks for explanations - about anything. I do not have anywhere near the bible knowledge that you have. That is obvious. But what I do have is an understanding of what God wants from us. (No, I do not actually have ALL the answers, but I probably have a better grasp than most.)

I do not hold this up as a trophy. It is not something that is to be attained to. I received this understanding because I was fortunate enough to have wonderful spiritual parents to guide me through the process. Most Christians do not get this; they should, but they don't.

Instead, most are taught your way. They learn that "all the answers are in the book." Sure they are. But, dang, they can be hard to get out! And it can take a lifetime to do so.


Instead, I was taught from a very young age (as a Christian; I was actually 45 years old) that what matters most is the relationship. I was taught that God is the perfect father. I don't think anyone would argue with that description of Him, but most do not consider what that means.

My experience is that most Christians go through life with a feeling of impending doom hanging over their heads. They believe that God is just waiting for them to commit a sin that justifies Him destroying their lives.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Most of us here are or have been parents. Did you lie awake at night planning the destruction of your children if that got one more bad grade or broke curfew one more time? Of course not.

This is not to say that there are no consequences for our actions and mis-deeds. There certainly are. But God does not punish; He disciplines. There is a difference. He simply does not plot or look forward to the destruction of his children.

In essence, the biggest difference between you and I appears to be that I believe God to be a benevolent and loving God and Father. What you preach is far different. Perhaps you do believe that God is loving, but it is not what you preach.

Finally, on the topic of preaching. That has its place, but this isn't it. You have an audience here that has asked for discourse. Instead, you gave them pompous lectures full of big words that was outside of their understanding (at least most).

How many of the people here do you suppose know that "sanctification" is just another way of saying "spiritual maturity?"

Why didn't you use a phrase that the audience could understand?


If you are speaking to lay people (of which I am one) why does someone with your level of knowledge not make it as simple as possible for us to understand?

The world is full of Christians who draw their biblical knowledge as a dagger to pierce the heart of anyone who dares challenge them. This kind of Christian is a hindrance to Christ, despite the fact that they may have great love for Him.


I will attempt to be finished with our discourse. I will not be drawn out to "do battle" with you. I have said what I felt called to say.


LOL - I actually had the urge to say, "Go in peace." That would have been me being corny. (I don't even have a robe or a conical hat.)


Praising Him,
Dave Schwartz

The Problem of Evil and the Fall
 

This is an invitation to both Dave and Storm Chaser.

What I would like to do in this post is play devil's advocate. I will the play the role of the Skeptic. And I think I would be very good at it, considering that I was once an atheist but now I have the real inside skinny of Christianity. I don't have to get my talking points merely from skeptics' websites. I promise to make a better skeptic than the skeptics here can make of themselves!

So, Madam Chaser and David, here is my big problem with your Christianity. I see your god as this huge, cosmic hypocrite! He talks a good game about himself, but when it came time to deliver that talk in the Garden, he failed dismally! In fact, he failed before the Garden, even! So, your god is two-time loser to boot.

Now, I realize that some Christians (of the Calvinistic persuasion) claim that God decreed the Fall. Other Christians of the Arminianism stripe try in vain to soften that hard-to-swallow, bitter pill by claiming that God's "permissive will" allowed the Fall of mankind. In other words, this all-loving, good, compassionate, caring God foresaw the oncoming train wreck in the Garden, but did or could do nothing to prevent it. But this solution begs the question big time. Where was God's good sense in this? Didn't he even possess the common sense we mere mortals have to know that an an ounce of prevention is worth of pound of cure?

But, yet, we're told elsewhere in Genesis that this same god of yours intervened on behalf of Sarah when she encountered Abimelech. He seemed to be very concerned that little 'ol Sarah gal didn't get molested or raped by this king, and so he apparently protected her. Yet, where was this divine protection in the Garden with Eve? Who would have suffered if Sarah has been raped? Abraham...temporarily? But look at the devastating effects the fall of Eve has had on all mankind for the last gazillion years? How many people have suffered due to her sin and subsequently the sin of Adam, who was in turn tempted by Eve? Consider all the misery, pain, suffering, sorrow and death countless billions upon billions of people have experienced because your Christian god failed to do the right thing by Eve! But yet, this same book that records this "fall" in the Garden also teaches how good and loving and caring and compassionate he allegedly is. Really? But I have more proof that this god of yours who basks himself in self-adulation is nothing but a fraud!

Not only did your god not take care of Eve by protecting her as he did Sarah, but he stuck his little pet pit bull by the name of Satan unto her! :bang: :bang: So, this character Lucifer (later named Satan, I suppose) fell out of favor with your god, and, again, instead of god using his common sense and locking this rogue up somewhere where he and the rest of his fallen minion couldn't hurt anyone, he casts this character down to planet earth where Adam and Eve were! :bang: :bang: Does that make sense!? What a smooth move that was! :rolleyes: :rolleyes: He turns the fox loose in the chicken pen! :bang: :bang:

So, it seems to me that your god was setting Adam and Eve up for the fall! How else can I read this? He set them up as clay pigeons. I mean...it's one thing to postulate that god was maybe "testing" our first parents, but then to stack the deck against them by putting this angel, who is evil as all get out, on the same planet as them? And then after all that and they sin, then this complex, elaborate plan is hatched and set in motion by this cosmic screw-up and hypocrite in order to to try to fix the mess he put the whole human race in, by saving some people and not others? :bang: :bang:

Love? Compassion? Goodness? Kindness? Wisdom? Where? I possess more of all these than your stupid god does! :bang: :bang:

Suppose one day I'm out camping high up on some mountain. And as I'm looking out over the landscape having my brunch, and I happen to spot with my binoculars some activity of trucks and SUVs near a train trestle. And I see men busily working with wires and it appears that they're wiring material under the trestle. In fact, it appears that they're getting ready to blow up the trestle. And then I look further down the track and I see a train slowly chugging toward the spot where the men were busily working. They, too, spot and the train and speedily make their exit from their spot. I have my cellphone and I could call 911 or even the train station to alert the authorities. But instead, I decide to do nothing. I figure I'll stick around and see if anything blows up. And sure enough...my instincts were right! As the train made it over the trestle, I hear and see a huge explosion. And the train was a passenger train. Hundreds were killed or injured. Tell me, you Christians, what would you think of me if I had a chance to stop a huge catastrophe and I didn't? Would you think I was a loving, compassionate, caring, understanding guy? Well, then...my question to you is: Why I should I think that about your god!? Because that is exactly what he did, if we're take that Genesis account literally! He could have prevented a huge disaster for the human race, yet he chose not to.

I'll be waiting with bated breath for Dave's and Ms. Chaser's replies.

Boxcar
P.S. And if you think you're being put on the spot...well, you are! Welcome to the real world. One can and should expect to hear just about anything from the lost when witnessing to them.

Wow, boxcar...

I thought you were bad as a Christian fanatic...

But you are even worse as a Christian skeptic.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I give up on "Boxcar's God" and will accept my just punishment when I leave this earth. I base this decision on the teachings and the method of communication he (Boxcar) uses.

So, the answer to your question Dave, is "yes" I am prepared to change my beliefs, or more accurately, agree that I guess I never did believe in this particular God of which he speaks.

I do, however, believe in your God, Dave. :ThmbUp:

Boxcar is proof there is no God.

Otherwise, he'd be slapped silly.

Boxcar,

Alas, I must decline.

I believe I have made it clear enough that I have no need of debate.



Trotter,

Is there anything I can do to help your quest, either publicly or privately?

Is there discussion you would like?

Dave

I've got questions...
 

To begin:

Why would God not want Adam and Eve to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

Not a test. I want to know what everyone thinks, and why.

Dave,

I have no idea. An answer as to why God would do something would be pure speculation on my part.

I will give it a try but I am not sure what is gained by this answer.

My guess would be that God was trying to protect his children from the negative side of life. They (effectively) lived in Utopia. Further, He knew that once they were aware of the negatives, they would be changed forever.

Meaningful verse would be from Genesis:
Genesis 3:11
New International Version (NIV)
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from? ”

BTW, I did not post this from memory, although I knew this one and then looked it up. There is a wonderful site called BibleGateway.com. I highly recommend it. You just pick your bible of choice and type in a quote.

This is what I typed:
http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksea...qs_version=NIV

If protection were God's aim wouldn't it make more sense not to have the tree there in the first place. Temptation is a powerful motivator, no?

Yes...and God knew the outcome. Are we in agreement?

We can agree on both of those points.

I think where you are going with this is a question I have asked forever... "If God knows what I am going to do in advance; knows that I am going to fall short, why does he bother to put the test in front of me to begin with?"

My answer is, "I have no idea."

Truthfully, what does it matter?

We humans think in terms of human abilities and traits. After all, it is our only reference.

We often forget that God is... well, God. He is a SUPER-natural being (or if you prefer, entity). As such he is not governed by our limitations, either physical (as in "physics") or moral.

I guess what I am trying to say, is trying to figure out why God would do this or that is like when a dog looks at you with his head cocked to one side trying to fathom what or why you are doing something. He just can't get it and either can we.

:)

The leap of faith...

Much more desireable than Boxcar's Dishwasher...

Even for a non-believer.

Not even close.

Your religious tradition tells you that Adam and Eve failed the test.

Mine tells me they passed.

Dave,

I guess I, too, failed.

If you wish, you may explain.


Dave

More to follow but first a simple question:

Would you think mankind is better or worse off in having the knowledge of good and evil?

The reason there is good and evil in this world is because God gives free will to your choices. He is non judgmental, and his love is truly unconditional.