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boxcar 06-11-2012 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJDave
Apparently, God also has somewhat less than an eidetic memory. He needs visual clues:

And it shall come to pass, when I bring clouds over the earth, and the bow is seen in the cloud, that I will remember My covenant, which is between Me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

I darn near missed this post. Mr. TJ, can you from this passage explain just how it is God has lied to mankind?

Boxcar

TJDave 06-11-2012 11:53 PM

No
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar
I darn near missed this post. Mr. TJ, can you from this passage explain just how it is God has lied to mankind?

The passage wasn't cited for that reason. Please note the word 'also' in the first sentence.

It is a contradiction of God's omnipotence, however. I would expect the master of the universe to be able to remember a covenant without the need for a visual clue...Wouldn't you?

Here's a clue:

I don't believe anyone thinks God lies.

Just that man has trouble keeping his story straight. :rolleyes:

Light 06-11-2012 11:58 PM

I think if Jesus himself came into this discussion, Boxcar would argue with him too.

boxcar 06-12-2012 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
Okay, I will play a round or two with you.

Let me tell you where this person DID NOT get her knowledge:

She did not get her knowledge from someone who spouted scripture at her as you have done to the people in this thread.

You are arguing academically.

You are holding up the Bible as proof to people who do not recognize the Bible as having the value that you or I see in it.

I am sure that you have heard people say that God meets you where you are. Well, you are DEMANDING that the non-believer meet you in the Bible - a place that is very foreign to them.

In addition, your manner is very off-putting in that you appear to be armed for a battle. Now, certainly Christ did battle with words at times... but he did not do battle with people He was trying to bring in as followers/believers.

I suggest to you that your methods are absolutely counter-productive to ever bringing anyone to Christ.

I further suggest that, while you may see yourself as "doing God's work," in reality, you are a huge hindrance to His plans, at least if those plans include making new believers.

In addition, you paint a very inaccurate picture of the loving God that I know (and the one who is far more faithful to me than I am to Him). The picture that you paint is very unpleasant. I mean, the picture you paint is of a vengeful, doomsday kind of God, instead of a loving, perfect parent-type of God as I know Him to be.

Considering the portrait you have drawn, why would anyone in their right mind sign up for the God program at all?

This whole if-you-came-away-from-church-without-guilt-your-preacher-isn't-doing-his-job-thing is just not as it was meant to be. That is just not the Father that I know and have in my life.

Neither is it the Father that I would encourage people to follow.

I close with the question I asked you before: "Where is the love in your message?" I don't mean, where are the Bible quotes ABOUT love. I mean where is the love in your voice and your heart?


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Where is your love and passion for the lost since you think is so unimportant as to whether any get saved or not because that's all in God's hands? I perceive (but I stand to be corrected) that you are one of those hyper-Calvinists -- i.e. "let go, let God" kinda guy? If so, we are miles apart on our theology. And I mean MILES. While I believe in the Doctrines of Grace with every fiber of my body, nonetheless I "preach" like a 5-point Arminian -- same way Paul did! In other words, I place the emphasis on sinners' personal responsibility to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And we can't even agree, apparently, on what the fundamentals of the gospel are! You disagree that repentance is required?
I would recommend studying these passages: Mk 1:15, Lk 13:3; Acts 8:22; 17:30, etc., etc.. I tell you a truth: Unless a man truly repents of his sins, he will never see God! Never!

And then when you say that "I'm not trying to be Paul", then this suggests to me that you really do hold the scriptures in low esteem; for Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, commanded his readers in those scriptures to imitate him.
But you're content with just being yourself? Dave imitates who? Jesus? Paul? Anyone?

More evidence of our wide disagreement in all this is when I told you the other day that the essence of Christianity was having that personal, intimate knowledge of God and I quoted or cited Jn 17:3 and you couldn't even agree with that very clear statement. Instead, you put words into my mouth and made it sound as though I has said that we must know "about" God, when I said no such thing nor did the text!!!!. Jesus talked about knowing God, not knowing about him. Why would you do that? How do you think the phrase came about "saving knowledge of God"?

Then, the low value that you apparently place on God's word, I find shocking. From cover to cover in the scriptures, God's people are commanded and exhorted to be saturated with the Word of God so that the word permeates their mind, heart and soul. But recently you justified your opinion on God's word by appealing to the Medieval History and the lack of the Gutenberg bible, as though history is the authoritative rule for Christian living? My answer to that is just as God displayed exceedingly special measures of grace through his signs, wonders and miracles to his fledgling church in Acts prior to the close of the NT Canon, likewise, he gave unusual measures of grace to his people in need during the darkest periods in human history when the scriptures were scarce. But now that the Canon is closed and we have his full revelation and it's readily available, I have to think that God fully expects his people obey the Law of Christ -- to know and obey his revealed will -- to obey the demands of the gospel by making full use of the means of grace revealed to us in the Word and provided to us through the power of his Holy Spirit.

And now a brief true story about my "academic" approach to scriptures. It's been my experience that, generally speaking, when a skeptic asks a specific question or raises a specific objection to the scriptures, it's best to tackle those issues head-on. Not to duck them or deflect the question with some touchy-feely, visceral "Do you know God loves you?" unrelated answer. Before the Lord got a hold of me, as an atheist I had a very long list of questions to pose to my pastor. And he handled my questions superbly -- frontal attack! All the answers came right out of the scriptures. Every single one. In fact, he did such a superb job that I didn't even finish going down my lengthy list. I didn't feel there was a need any longer. That same night, by the Grace of God I repented of my sins, confessed them and accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior.

To me the key to sharing the gospel truth is to share in a way that is consistent with both scripture and the context of the situation. Certainly, there are times when a very low-keyed, more empathy-based, emotioinal approach would be appropriate. But there are other times, when other strategies would be just as appropriate. There isn't a one-size fits all approach to sharing the gospel. Prayerful guidance, wisdom and flexibility are of paramount importance. (For example, not too long ago, I shared the gospel with close friend over dinner and God led the conversation to the Doctrines of Grace and his sovereignty. That was the first time in my life I ever spoke at length to an unbeliever about these things! But that's how God led the conversation!) Unlike you, I don't place limits on God's power to use his word to save his people. For faith cometh only by hearing the word!

Most of the skeptics on this forum, however, don't care a whit about God's love or about believing the gospel. What most of them care very much about is justifying their own skepticism by painting God as a vengeful, lying, confused monster who got the scriptures all wrong, got creation all wrong and is just a royal screw-up. This is very typical of people who don't' want to accept the doctrine of Original Sin or the Fall, etc. So, I could bang out a gazillion times how much God loves them, how willing he is to save them but you know what....until they see their personal need to be saved, they will never repent and believe. Until a sinner comes to the place in his own personal life where he sees himself as a God sees him, i.e. a filthy, vile, wretched sinner, he will never seek God's forgiveness. As I stated on other occasions, the paradox in the gospel is that one must come to terms with the bad news side of it before they can accept the great news side to it.

Boxcar

boxcar 06-12-2012 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TJDave
The passage wasn't cited for that reason. Please note the word 'also' in the first sentence.

It is a contradiction of God's omnipotence, however. I would expect the master of the universe to be able to remember a covenant without the need for a visual clue...Wouldn't you?

Here's a clue:

I don't believe anyone thinks God lies.

Just that man has trouble keeping his story straight. :rolleyes:

Hmmm...that's a toughie, TJ. The only thing I can think of to ask you is this: Do you know what an anthropomorphism is? :rolleyes:

Night, night.

Boxcar

boxcar 06-12-2012 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Light
I think if Jesus himself came into this discussion, Boxcar would argue with him too.

No...I think that's precisely where I would draw the line. Ditto for my favorite apostle, too, who is Paul. And maybe for my favorite OT prophet, which is Daniel. :)

Boxcar

TJDave 06-12-2012 12:53 AM

How typically condescending
 
Very Christian of you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar
Hmmm...that's a toughie, TJ. The only thing I can think of to ask you is this: Do you know what an anthropomorphism is? :rolleyes:

Yes, but to attribute human frailty?

Not the best sales approach I would think.

thaskalos 06-12-2012 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxcar
Do you know what an anthropomorphism is?

I do...:)

Dave Schwartz 06-12-2012 01:18 AM

Quote:

Where is your love and passion for the lost since you think is so unimportant as to whether any get saved or not because that's all in God's hands? I perceive (but I stand to be corrected) that you are one of those hyper-Calvinists -- i.e. "let go, let God" kinda guy? If so, we are miles apart on our theology. And I mean MILES. While I believe in the Doctrines of Grace with every fiber of my body, nonetheless I "preach" like a 5-point Arminian -- same way Paul did! In other words, I place the emphasis on sinners' personal responsibility to repent of their sins and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
LOL - I do not even know what "let go, let God" means.

I have plenty of passion for unsaved people. I just do not see it as MY place to save them. It is God's place.



Quote:

And we can't even agree, apparently, on what the fundamentals of the gospel are! You disagree that repentance is required?
I would recommend studying these passages: Mk 1:15, Lk 13:3; Acts 8:22; 17:30, etc., etc.. I tell you a truth: Unless a man truly repents of his sins, he will never see God! Never!
Where did you get that? Of course one must repent their sins. It is the only way to abide and remain in fellowship with God.


Quote:

And then when you say that "I'm not trying to be Paul", then this suggests to me that you really do hold the scriptures in low esteem; for Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, commanded his readers in those scriptures to imitate him.
I have underlined the key phrase. If you are inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach as you do, then you are doing precisely what God wants. However, I find your manner of preaching to be antithetical to my beliefs of the nature of God.


Quote:

But you're content with just being yourself? Dave imitates who? Jesus? Paul? Anyone?
Dave does not seek to imitate. He seeks to be led. In other words, WWJD is incorrect. It should be WWJHMD: "What would Jesus have me do?"


Quote:

More evidence of our wide disagreement in all this is when I told you the other day that the essence of Christianity was having that personal, intimate knowledge of God and I quoted or cited Jn 17:3 and you couldn't even agree with that very clear statement. Instead, you put words into my mouth and made it sound as though I has said that we must know "about" God, when I said no such thing nor did the text!!!!. Jesus talked about knowing God, not knowing about him. Why would you do that? How do you think the phrase came about "saving knowledge of God"?
Permit me to be perfectly clear.

What I meant was that you spout and regurgitate your knowledge in such a way that it appears you do not truly know God. Rather, you know ABOUT him.

I am simply reporting my findings based upon your interactions in this thread, where it appears to me that what is important to you is that you preach at people. I seriously question that God would send you to convert people. You seem hell-bent on driving them away.



Quote:

Then, the low value that you apparently place on God's word, I find shocking. From cover to cover in the scriptures, God's people are commanded and exhorted to be saturated with the Word of God so that the word permeates their mind, heart and soul. But recently you justified your opinion on God's word by appealing to the Medieval History and the lack of the Gutenberg bible, as though history is the authoritative rule for Christian living? My answer to that is just as God displayed exceedingly special measures of grace through his signs, wonders and miracles to his fledgling church in Acts prior to the close of the NT Canon, likewise, he gave unusual measures of grace to his people in need during the darkest periods in human history when the scriptures were scarce. But now that the Canon is closed and we have his full revelation and it's readily available, I have to think that God fully expects his people obey the Law of Christ -- to know and obey his revealed will -- to obey the demands of the gospel by making full use of the means of grace revealed to us in the Word and provided to us through the power of his Holy Spirit.

You post this stuff over and over... who does it exalt? You (and your knowledge) or God?

My point about the bible is that The Word was unavailable for a over 10 centuries yet there certainly were Godly men. I am not discreditably the value of The Word. I am saying that there are people such as yourself that use The Word to prove their own holiness; to raise themselves above others. IMHO, that is what you are doing.


Quote:

To me the key to sharing the gospel truth is to share in a way that is consistent with both scripture and the context of the situation. Certainly, there are times when a very low-keyed, more empathy-based, emotioinal approach would be appropriate. But there are other times, when other strategies would be just as appropriate. There isn't a one-size fits all approach to sharing the gospel. Prayerful guidance, wisdom and flexibility are of paramount importance.
Gee, do you really think empathy etc. might be a good way?

As for strategies, you are absolutely right: it is not one-size fits all. That's why I try to allow God the choice of what should be said.

You remind me of the pastor I had lunch with one day who told me how many people "he" had saved. (Note the lack of capital letter is intentional.)

My turn for a story.

When I am discipling someone the biggest stumbling block in front of the disciple is me. I am the bottleneck. The problem is that the words have to come out of my mouth, which often results in there being "too much Dave" and "not enough God."

This is especially true considering my nature.

So, during a 90-minute discipleship meeting, I might spend half the time praying that I can keep quiet and let God do the talking.

Perhaps you should try this method some time.


Quote:

Most of the skeptics on this forum, however, don't care a whit about God's love or about believing the gospel. What most of them care very much about is justifying their own skepticism by painting God as a vengeful, lying, confused monster who got the scriptures all wrong, got creation all wrong and is just a royal screw-up. This is very typical of people who don't' want to accept the doctrine of Original Sin or the Fall, etc. So, I could bang out a gazillion times how much God loves them, how willing he is to save them but you know what....until they see their personal need to be saved, they will never repent and believe. Until a sinner comes to the place in his own personal life where he sees himself as a God sees him, i.e. a filthy, vile, wretched sinner, he will never seek God's forgiveness. As I stated on other occasions, the paradox in the gospel is that one must come to terms with the bad news side of it before they can accept the great news side to it.
Well, if you truly see yourself as all these things... filthy, vile, retched, etc... why are you defending yourself so vehemently?


Listen, this is not complicated.

IMHO, you are publicly being a very poor representative of God and need to be called on it. You have run roughshod over this thread since... what? Last October?

This thread COULD have been a place where a few people... maybe just a single person... might have entered into meaningful dialog with you over what it means to be a Christian because they had a void in their lives and were finally ready to have it filled. Instead, you have preached YOUR brand of Christianity - the one that turned this into a battleground.

That is not Christ's brand of Christianity. His is the one based upon love, understanding and forgiveness. It is not based upon people's shortcomings.


Again, I ask you, "Where is the love in your voice and your heart?"

hcap 06-12-2012 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxicar
You're a liar. You never provided an answer to why I should give some unknown or unknowable god my time of day. How you left off was that you switched from your concept of god to truth. A typical way you deflect tough questions.

What an idiot. What does that mean? How is discovering truth from what one believes in NOT a reason to give it credence? I posted something from the Tao.

Tao Te Ching: Chapter 11

Thirty spokes
meet in the hub.
Where the wheel isn't
is where it's useful.

Hollowed out,
clay makes a pot.
Where the pot's not
is where it's useful.

Cut doors and windows
to make a room.
Where the room isn't,
there's room for you.

So the profit in what is
is in the use of what isn't.

Hint: "UNKNOWN" is not unknowable. However It is if you do your usual "angels dancing on the head of a pin" overly intellectual circular/literal/ type of analysis, and as usual miss the point

Unknown and unknowable by the same type of thinking that assumes there is only one way, and it's yours. The Tao is describing the inner part of life that may not be understandable to a literalist liker you, but the space delineated by it's enclosure is just as important as it's walls. But you can not understand that by only counting the bricks in the wall.

hcap 06-12-2012 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
This thread COULD have been a place where a few people... maybe just a single person... might have entered into meaningful dialog with you over what it means to be a Christian because they had a void in their lives and were finally ready to have it filled. Instead, you have preached YOUR brand of Christianity - the one that turned this into a battleground.

That is not Christ's brand of Christianity. His is the one based upon love, understanding and forgiveness. It is not based upon people's shortcomings.

Amazing how close this is to how many of the so-called "skeptics" on this tread feel.

As a non-Christian, I am drawn to the empathy and compassion of the NT, not boxcars' version of the NT. One common ground in many religions is the golden rule. I would think a thread titled Religious would have room for many approaches and ways. So although I accept the truth and spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, I am disappointed that the Christians here (mostly boxcar) have refused to accept any validity of other ways.

Similarities are 100x more important than differences.

Greyfox 06-12-2012 09:36 AM

Some Observations
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hcap
Amazing how close this is to how many of the so-called "skeptics" on this tread feel.

As a non-Christian, I am drawn to the empathy and compassion of the NT, not boxcars' version of the NT. One common ground in many religions is the golden rule. I would think a thread titled Religious would have room for many approaches and ways. So although I accept the truth and spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, I am disappointed that the Christians here (mostly boxcar) have refused to accept any validity of other ways.

Similarities are 100x more important than differences.

I would guess that the vast majority of readers on this thread have been exposed more to Christianity than any other religion, whether they practice it or not.

Whether you or Dave or others agree with boxcar's style of responses, he does do an excellent job of outlaying the basic tenets of Christianity as stated in the New Testament. His knowledge of the Old Testament is quite phenomenal as well.

Modern TV evangelists such as the Osteens sell Christianity and make money doing so by presenting the religion's sugary sweet side.
boxcar's approach is more Calvinistic and includes the Hell Fire Damnation side. That's not a popular message in this "fast food sweep dirt under the carpet age."

So to boxcar's credit he presents the sterner side of Christ's message that is missing in many sermonizers over the last 40 years.
Having said that, like it or lump it, boxcar has laid out his understanding of Christianity to this point, perhaps obsessively.
In doing so I think that he has presented us with "food for thought" whether we agree with him or not.

Also I think that there is a tremendous value to be gained in this thread from debating with a "True Believer" eventhough I may hold a somewhat different stance.

Now having said that, hcap you have mentioned above that you are a non-Christian. If I recall right you are Jewish and seem to be drawn to Zen teachings.
Yet I don't see you outline the specific main tenets of Judaism or Zen in this thread so I'm not completely sure what your perceived relationship with God is.
I do appreciate the occasional quotes or verses that you have given as well.
Also, without knowing how you view the central tenets of your faith it's hard to offer an opinion here about them.

But I hope that both you and Dave appreciate that it is easier to pound away at boxcar due to the True Believer firm wall that he provides here, than it is to debate with either or you posters as you're clearly less rigid in your stances.

Nevertheless, there is learning to be had here from all of you.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dave Schwartz 06-12-2012 10:29 AM

Quote:

As a non-Christian, I am drawn to the empathy and compassion of the NT, not boxcars' version of the NT. One common ground in many religions is the golden rule. I would think a thread titled Religious would have room for many approaches and ways. So although I accept the truth and spirit of the Sermon on the Mount, I am disappointed that the Christians here (mostly boxcar) have refused to accept any validity of other ways.
HCP,

The nature of Christians (like most other believers in a religion) is that we believe ours is best and the only one that counts. Personally, I do not have that kind of visionary scope.

I accept the doctrine: Christ is the way and the light - and the ONLY way.

However, I also recognize that if God had another plan with other religions, he just might not tell me. First and foremost, I must follow what I believe God has instructed me to do and be.

Therefore, I cannot say that Christ is the only way - even though I believe it.


My background is that before I was a Christian, I was an Hasidic Jew. Not by birth, but by conversion. (My father was Jewish, my mother Christian, therefore, I was nothing. Neither were strong believers. I went to Hebrew school only until I was about 7 or 8.)

When I was 28 I converted to Judaism. I moved from Las Vegas to Los Angeles for the conversion because there were no orthodox temples in Las Vegas.

The conversion was... uh... shall I say "resisted strongly" by the Rabbi. I went to see him and he says, "You don't want to do this. Judaism is just too strenuous. Go be a Mormon... they are always looking for people." (I am not making that up.)

I was living in Downey (near where i worked) and every Friday morning I would make the trek to the Fairfax area. I would go to the Rabbi's house and present myself once again. His wife would tell me that the Rabbi was busy.

This went on for six months. Meanwhile, I am trying to teach myself Judaism, a very difficult thing for someone who does not speak or read the language. One day, I was invited in. The Rabbi said, "You aren't going to go away, are you?" and agreed to teach me.

I was never truly accepted into the Fairfax community. LOL - Tried to rent an apartment. The landlady looked me up and down, said, "Rented" and slammed the door.

During those 3 years I learned that nobody loves God as a Hebrew does. God is such a huge part of the life of a Jew - minute to minute. The Rabbi was - it is very strenuous - too much to fake. Not so with Christianity.


BTW, I will just tell you that the "re-circumcision" was the toughest part of my conversion. Enough said on THAT topic.

TJDave 06-12-2012 11:39 AM

He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
HCP,
I accept the doctrine: Christ is the way and the light - and the ONLY way.

However, I also recognize that if God had another plan with other religions, he just might not tell me. First and foremost, I must follow what I believe God has instructed me to do and be.

Therefore, I cannot say that Christ is the only way - even though I believe it.

Refreshing. Commendations for your convictions and open-mindedness.

Isaiah would approve.

boxcar 06-12-2012 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Schwartz
LOL - I do not even know what "let go, let God" means.

I have plenty of passion for unsaved people. I just do not see it as MY place to save them. It is God's place.

What in the world does that mean? Again, you're putting words into my mouth. I never said a Christian "saves" anyone. But Christians are supposed to be actively engaged in winning souls. We are to be actively engaged in God's work because we are his workmanship created unto good works. (And I can't think of any better work that soul winning!) One MAN plants, another MAN waters...But God gives the increase. In a real sense, therefore, we do "save" the lost because we are the means by which God most often uses to save the lost. God has given us that great and awesome privilege. Have you never read?

1 Cor 9:22
22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, that I may by all means save some.
NASB

And again,

Rom 11:14
4 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.
NASB

And did not Christ say that he would make his disciples fishers of men? And what do fisherman do, David? Do they not work hard to catch fish!? Of do they just wait for God to fill their nets?

Matt 4:19
19 And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men."
NASB

And again,

Prov 11:30
30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
And he who is wise wins souls.

NASB

So, forgive me, sir, but your claim that you "have plenty of passion" for the lost has a hollow ring to it when you also tell me that it's not YOUR place to save them. This is why I said earlier that this kind of thinking smacks of hyper-Calvinism. And this is what is meant by the phrase "Let go and let God" because in that perverted theology the idea is that the Christian just sits back and uses God as his excuse for doing little or nothing! The Christian is like a puppy dog on a leash who only moves when he thinks or feels that his master is moving. The Christian is just along for the ride or the walk. Or the old worn out cliche, "God is my pilot", which suggests that very thing. But I would proffer that none of these are biblical approaches to the Christian life, for it is written:

Phil 2:12-14
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
NASB

Can't get a more Calvinistic passage is scripture that this, can we? First comes the command -- the imperative. We are told to do something. We are told to work -- with fear and trembling, yet. But then we are given the great incentive for obeying -- because God is at work within us -- both to will and to work. (Remember what Paul said in Romans 7 about the willingness was in him, but the doing wasn't!?)

Quote:

Where did you get that? Of course one must repent their sins. It is the only way to abide and remain in fellowship with God.
Really? This is what I wrote earlier:

And, no we don't go forth to change other people's behavior, but as Lights of the World, we go forth to preach the Gospel because when when one is born of the Spirit and the living and abiding word of God (1Pet 2:3), that person's behavior will change. Preaching to people that they must change their behavior would truly be putting the cart before the horse. What people need to do is repent, i.e. change their mind about God and their personal sins. True repentance will lead to that change of behavior.

And this is how you responded:

Quote:

I must disagree with you.

What people need to do if they are called to God, is turn their lives over to Him. He will then instruct them as to what they should do.
Can you quote me chapter and verse on that "turn their lives over to Him"? There's nothing more wearisome than reading these tired, worn out, unbiblical cliches that at best contain half truths!

So, which is it now? Do people need to do the biblical thing and repent of their sins and believe the gospel or not? I cited several passages earlier that command people do this very thing.

Then you added:

Quote:

A well-known quote: "Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words."
But here are better known biblical quotes:

Rom 10:17
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
NASB

Rom 10:14-15
14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings of good things!"
NASB

And:

1 Cor 1:18
18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
NASB

Quote:

I have underlined the key phrase. If you are inspired by the Holy Spirit to preach as you do, then you are doing precisely what God wants. However, I find your manner of preaching to be antithetical to my beliefs of the nature of God.
I am tough-minded, no-nonsense kind of guy when it comes to dishonest people, of which the vast majority of participants in this thread are. However, do not think that I don't have a soft heart when I meet people like this:

Luke 8:15
15 "And the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.
NASB

Or with people like this:

Isa 66:2b
"But to this one I will look,
To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

NASB

Or with people like this:

Ps 34:18
8 The Lord is near to the brokenhearted,
And saves those who are crushed in spirit.

NASB

Or with people like this:

Matt 11:28
28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.
NASB

I don't see any unbelieving participant here who meets the above criteria, do you? Do you see any sin-sick people? Do you see any participants who are sin-weary? Do you see any whose spirit is crushed by the weight of their sins?

But if Jesus were participating on this forum, this would be his attitude with those whose hearts are hard as a rock and dishonest as the day is long:

Matt 7:6
6 "Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.
NASB

And this same Jesus exhibited this attitude toward those antagonistic to him after they heard the Word and witnessed his miracles:

Matt 11:20-24
20 Then He began to reproach the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. 23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You shall descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24 "Nevertheless I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you."
NASB

To borrow your own words and apply them to these texts, I must ask:

Quote:

Again, I ask you, "Where is the love in your voice and your heart?"
My love is in the same place as it was in Jesus' voice and heart, my friend, when he spoke the above words -- as well as others that I could add.

Quote:

Dave does not seek to imitate. He seeks to be led. In other words, WWJD is incorrect. It should be WWJHMD: "What would Jesus have me do?"
You're so filled with, so overflowing with these inane cliches. What would Jesus Christ have Dave and me and everyone else do? He would have us obey him! Not very complicated at all! He would have us obey his Gospel! He would have us to understand and know what the revealed will of God is and to act upon his words! Therefore, David, when you use this cliche to tell but a half truth, i.e. "He seeks to be led", you are not in obedience to full, revealed counsel of God! As I pointed out previously, there are several passages that command or exhort us to follow Paul's example! To be imitators of him! But apparently you are above that? Yet, that is precisely what Jesus would have Dave to do and me and everyone else, assuming Paul was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and not exalting himself.

And why wouldn't you want to be led by the apostle Paul? How do you find a disconnect between the injunctions to follow Paul's example and the commands to be led by the Spirit? There is no incongruity here, is there? It seems to me, you're making excuses to ignore some commands.

Quote:

Permit me to be perfectly clear.

What I meant was that you spout and regurgitate your knowledge in such a way that it appears you do not truly know God. Rather, you know ABOUT him.

I am simply reporting my findings based upon your interactions in this thread, where it appears to me that what is important to you is that you preach at people. I seriously question that God would send you to convert people. You seem hell-bent on driving them away.

You post this stuff over and over... who does it exalt? You (and your knowledge) or God?
Excuse me, David, but didn't you just say very recently?

Quote:

I have not read a single post in this thread other than the one I am responding to. Forgive me if I seem to pontificate; it is not my intent.
So how would you know what I have posted "over and over"? Are you being duplicitous here?

So, you don't like my style? And I'm beginning to suspect that if we were to continue this conversation, you would not care much for my theology either!

Quote:

My point about the bible is that The Word was unavailable for a over 10 centuries yet there certainly were Godly men. I am not discreditably the value of The Word. I am saying that there are people such as yourself that use The Word to prove their own holiness; to raise themselves above others. IMHO, that is what you are doing.
No, I have always posted my views from a Christian perspective on any thread -- from a Christian world view -- which truly raises the ire of some, as would be expected if we are to believe scripture. At least I have had the courage to put my head on the chopping block and to take all the insults and ad hominem attacks and name calling and the rest. As unworthy as I am, I'm willing to take the light blows for Christ's sake and to suffer the reproach of sinners. And I do this gladly and without complaint. It's the least I can do. But where has your head been on this forum all these years? Certainly, keeping it comfortably out of everyone's cross hairs, I take it? Because Jesus or the Holy Spirit hasn't "led you"?

Quote:

Gee, do you really think empathy etc. might be a good way?
Absolutely! In the right context of circumstances! (See above.)

Quote:

You remind me of the pastor I had lunch with one day who told me how many people "he" had saved. (Note the lack of capital letter is intentional.)
Maybe that pastor thought of himself as saving people in the same sense Paul did? (Again, see my earlier remarks.)

Quote:

My turn for a story.

When I am discipling someone the biggest stumbling block in front of the disciple is me. I am the bottleneck. The problem is that the words have to come out of my mouth, which often results in there being "too much Dave" and "not enough God."

This is especially true considering my nature.
But earlier you said that sin was not a problem in your life because you "abide". So, why would your nature get in the way now? It sounded earlier that you had that all under control, no?

Quote:

LOL - And I pray only to "abide." Sin? I do not worry about it.
Didn't sound as though you had any of those struggles the apostle experienced in Romans 7. Earlier, it sounded as though you had arrived! But now you're worried about your [sin] nature?

Quote:

So, during a 90-minute discipleship meeting, I might spend half the time praying that I can keep quiet and let God do the talking.

Perhaps you should try this method some time.
I don't know of anyone who can pray for about 45 minutes non-stop, but perhaps my day will come. If so, it would probably be the most glorious 45 minutes of my life.

Quote:

Well, if you truly see yourself as all these things... filthy, vile, retched, etc... why are you defending yourself so vehemently?
I have been defending scripture, not myself.

Quote:

Listen, this is not complicated.

IMHO, you are publicly being a very poor representative of God and need to be called on it. You have run roughshod over this thread since... what? Last October?

This thread COULD have been a place where a few people... maybe just a single person... might have entered into meaningful dialog with you over what it means to be a Christian because they had a void in their lives and were finally ready to have it filled. Instead, you have preached YOUR brand of Christianity - the one that turned this into a battleground.

That is not Christ's brand of Christianity. His is the one based upon love, understanding and forgiveness. It is not based upon people's shortcomings.
Again, I must ask: How would you know if anyone hasn't entered into meaningful discussion with me, since your wrote:

Quote:

I have not read a single post in this thread other than the one I am responding to. Forgive me if I seem to pontificate; it is not my intent.
And I think I've had some positive exchanges with Mr. Fox. Doesn't he count?
But I digress. Let's continue...

You write more half truths! But what you're missing is that people must see their need for forgiveness because he won't forgive anyone who doesn't! Repent and believe! Repent and believe! And there is a logical order here to these words because if people don't change their mind about themselves first, they will never believe in Him. Faith logically flows from true repentance. Not the other way around.

Jesus himself said, that he did not come to call the righteous (of which most on this forum are), but that he came to call sinners! And Christ was always very gentle and kind with those who saw themselves as sinners -- but not so with the righteous!

Quote:

Again, I ask you, "Where is the love in your voice and your heart?"
It is there, David, but you lack the spiritual discernment to find it. This might have something to do with the fact that it appears you have put the bible on the back burner of your life.

Heb 5:11-14
11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. 13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
NASB

So, according to this passage spiritual discernment comes from the solid food -- the meat of God's word. In this passage, it doesn't come from a subjective relationship with God.

Now, you did say that the bible has not changed your life, but that your [subjective] relationship with God has.

Quote:

1. What makes my life work is not the bible but rather my relationship with God.
(emphasis mine)

May I suggest to you that unless you also abide in the Word that whatever "relationship" you may have with God is sorely hampered, yeah...even handicapped?

John 8:31-32
31 Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "
NASB

John 15:7
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it shall be done for you.
NASB

1 John 2:24
24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
NASB

You seem to miss the fact that the word of God is an indispensable means of grace that is vitally necessary in order for us to have a truly biblical relationship with God, and to live the sanctified life and to grow and mature in the [objective] faith.

Yet, even though you appear to have greatly discounted the word of God as a necessary means of grace, you also complain about and lament over Christians getting in the way of the gospel message. That we speak too many words. That we must be careful to let God do the speaking, etc. You have even criticized me for recommending that people pick up a bible to read for themselves. Yet, if people follow my advice, then no one would be able to interfere between them and God, would they? There is this strange incongruity between your criticism of my recommendation and your concern about Christians getting in the way. It's as though you don't believe God is powerful enough to speak to people directly through his Word. Is God incapable of illuminating the minds and hearts of unbelievers by the word of truth? The God, with whom I have a personal relationship, is more than adequate for that task!

No doubt, you will take reference to me about me banging my bible over your poor head. But that's okay. Consider us to be even, since I have borne patiently with all your religious cliches. And it has been an interesting exercise since I have unearthed some conflicts you have from both within and without the Word.

Finally, since you have graciously consented to go a few rounds with me, I would like to invite you and Storm Chaser to indulge me for one more round, and then you can take your leave -- or whatever the both of you wish to do.

Boxcar


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