- - Religious
( http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88142)
| Greyfox |
08-14-2013 09:49 AM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
As you also practice meditation, what is your point?
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My point is that when I read anyone's post on this board, I like to know exactly what the poster is saying and see the references supporting his or her stance.
In that particular post, I had a difficult time differentiating where you were commenting with original thought of your own and where you were citing others. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyfox
My point is that when I read anyone's post on this board, I like to know exactly what the poster is saying and see the references supporting his or her stance.
In that particular post, I had a difficult time differentiating where you were commenting with original thought of your own and where you were citing others.
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If you had read the post where I quoted these Christian mystics, my point was obvious. I was pointing out that mysticism has existed in Christianity as a viable tradition. Did you think I misrepresented what these Christian mystics said? I can quote others. And provide you with more links if you want. Remember Light had reminded boxcar of a biblical passage that says
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“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."
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| Greyfox |
08-14-2013 10:39 AM |
Yes. Your point was obvious. So was mine.
You did credit the authors who were mentioned.
You just didn't credit the source from where they were lifted.
It's a minor point.
I wasn't knocking the content of your message.
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Yes a minor point and I did not credit the TM site knowing some here would accuse me of belonging to a "cult" and bring up a multitude of evangelicals and apologetics claiming that behind meditation of all sorts, are satanic forces at work. :) I quoted the actual Christian mystics instead, who obviously were not instructed by Zen Masters in Zazen or Hindu techniques (by the Maharishi)
Ps: Other than Thomas Merton of course who I did mention hoping for a discussion on his Zen influences. No bites. :)
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| Light |
08-14-2013 12:49 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxcar
Yeah, and who is the "YOU"? Jesus was addressing specifically his DISCIPLES, was he not? Both you and Thask need to learn about a novel concept in language called context. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Boxcar
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When you responded to my question of "how do you know you are pleasing God", you quoted “If you love me, you will keep my commandments". When I showed you the rest of the paragraph which included You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." suddenly that paragraph became exclusive to his disciples.
If Jesus changed the direction of who he was talking to after the first line of the paragraph, then either Jesus or the writer would have made a reference to whom he is now talking to. So either the entire paragraph only pertains to his disciples, which means you could not quote me the first line from this paragraph in answer to my question of pleasing God, or he was referencing everyone which means the last line is true for everyone,not just his disciples. You can't have it both ways.The statement was made in one breath and its clear he was talking to one entity or group, not waiting for Mr. boxcar to chop up his one paragraph to reference two different groups.Absurd.
Answers like this from you make you look totally disingenuous. Who would have guessed. :rolleyes: |
| thaskalos |
08-14-2013 01:30 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light
When you responded to my question of "how do you know you are pleasing God", you quoted “If you love me, you will keep my commandments". When I showed you the rest of the paragraph which included You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." suddenly that paragraph became exclusive to his disciples.
If Jesus changed the direction of who he was talking to after the first line of the paragraph, then either Jesus or the writer would have made a reference to whom he is now talking to. So either the entire paragraph only pertains to his disciples, which means you could not quote me the first line from this paragraph in answer to my question of pleasing God, or he was referencing everyone which means the last line is true for everyone,not just his disciples. You can't have it both ways.The statement was made in one breath and its clear he was talking to one entity or group, not waiting for Mr. boxcar to chop up his one paragraph to reference two different groups.Absurd.
Answers like this from you make you look totally disingenuous. Who would have guessed. :rolleyes:
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It has become obvious to me that Boxcar is not really an evangelical Christian. He is what I call an eclectic Christian. He picks and chooses what he likes from the Christian religious texts...while casually dismissing the passages that disagree with him.
Boxcar likes it when Jesus talks about salvation, and following the commandments...so it becomes obvious to him that this part of Jesus's teaching is to be taken 100% literally, and was meant for ALL the believers.
But Boxcar is uncomfortable when he sees Jesus talking about things like...loving our enemies...or turning the other cheek to those who strike us...or helping all those who come to us in need...or giving up our reserves to those who have none...or, that the kingdom of God is within us. So he chooses to believe that these passages were either meant to be taken ALLEGORICALLY...or they were directed exclusively towards the disciples -- and were not meant for the rest of us. How convenient!
An "eclectic Christian"...that's what Boxcar is. He picks and chooses from the Christian texts...until he has created a gospel all his own. |
True religion is that relationship, in accordance with reason and knowledge, which man establishes with the infinite world around him, and which binds his life to that infinity and guides his actions. (Leo Tolstoy, 1879
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| Greyfox |
08-14-2013 01:58 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by thaskalos
An "eclectic Christian"...that's what Boxcar is. He picks and chooses from the Christian texts...until he has created a gospel all his own.
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That's called "Cafeteria Christianity" (picking from the menu) in the parlance, which of course boxcar rejects whole heartedly. ;) |
Most Christians are not aware of the contemplative or allegorical roots of Christianity. Or for that matter how other religions also include the contemplative or allegorical This is from Wiki. The writer gives an excellent summation of religious mysticism. Here is his view of early Christianity. Read the entire article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystici...ote-Stanford-4
Mysticism and Early Christianity...
"In early Christianity the term "mystikos" referred to three dimensions, which soon became intertwined, namely the biblical, the liturgical and the spiritual or contemplative.[7] The biblical dimension refers to "hidden" or allegorical interpretations of Scriptures.[4][7] The liturgical dimension refers to the liturgical mystery of the Eucharist, the presence Christ at the Eucharist.[4][7] The third dimension is the contemplative or experiential knowledge of God"
4. Gellman, Jerome, "Mysticism", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2011 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.)
7.King, Richard (2002), Orientalism and Religion: Post-Colonial Theory, India and "The Mystic East", Routledge
Btw, it is only a matter of time until boxcar poo-poos anything not on the "official cafeteria" menu. Which usually moves the discussion into his boring playground. :lol: :lol: |
| Show Me the Wire |
08-14-2013 03:21 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
He rejects mysticism as a false idol. Not realizing he has made his own by a rigid interpretation of the bible, lacking the experential element that goes beyond intellectual gymnastics.
I have tried to tell him many times there is a strong tradition of the direct experience in Christianity as well as all other major traditions. I really don't understand his outright denial of religious experience as a way of knowing beyond the pseudo analytical process he is so fond of.
A few Christian mystics
St-Gregory-Great (540–604 • Italy)
The mind of the elect . . . is frequently carried away into the sweetness of heavenly contemplation; already it sees something of the inmost realities as it were through the mist . . . it feeds on the taste of the unencompassed Light, and being carried beyond self, disdains to sink back again into self. . . .
Sometimes the soul is admitted to some unwonted sweetness of interior relish, and is suddenly in some way refreshed when breathed on by the glowing spirit. . . .
When this is in any way seen, the mind is absorbed in a sort of rapturous security; and carried beyond itself, as though the present life had ceased to be, it is in a way remade in a certain newness [it is refreshed in a manner by a kind of new being . . . ]. There the mind is besprinkled with the infusion of heavenly dew from an inexhaustible fountain.
Johannes Tauler (1300–1361 • France)
The soul has a hidden abyss, untouched by time and space, which is far superior to anything that gives life and movement to the body. Into this noble and wondrous ground, this secret realm, there descends that bliss of which we have spoken. Here the soul has its eternal abode. Here a man becomes so still and essential, so single-minded and withdrawn, so raised up in purity, and more and more removed from all things. . . . This state of the soul cannot be compared to what it has been before, for now it is granted to share in the divine life itself.
St. Teresa of Avila (1515–1582 • Spain)
My soul at once becomes recollected and I enter the state of quiet or that of rapture, so that I can use none of my faculties and senses. . . .
Everything is stilled, and the soul is left in a state of great quiet and deep satisfaction.
From this recollection there sometimes springs an interior peace and quietude which is full of happiness, for the soul is in such a state that it thinks there is nothing that it lacks. Even speaking — by which I mean vocal prayer and meditation — wearies it: it would like to do nothing but love. This condition lasts for some time, and may even last for long periods.
And more recently one of my favorites.
Thomas Merton (1915–1969 • United States)
After completing a masters degree in English at Columbia University in New York, Merton entered the Abbey of Our Lady of Gethsemani, in Kentucky, as a monk. He was later ordained as a priest. He published more than 15 books of spiritual writings, poetry, fiction, and essays, and participated in movements for social justice and peace. He took great interest in the religions of the East, particularly Zen, for the light they shed on the depth of human consciousness. From the seclusion of the monastery, he exerted a worldwide influence.
In the following passage Merton describes the experience of “contemplation.” He uses the term not in the current sense (thinking intently about something) but in its older sense, to describe the experience of transcending thought:
The utter simplicity and obviousness of the infused light which contemplation pours into our soul suddenly awakens us to a new level of awareness. We enter a region which we had never even suspected, and yet it is this new world which seems familiar and obvious. The old world of our senses is now the one that seems to us strange, remote and unbelievable. . . .
A door opens in the center of our being and we seem to fall through it into immense depths which, although they are infinite, are all accessible to us; all eternity seems to have become ours in this one placid and breathless contact. . . .
You feel as if you were at last fully born.
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Yes mysticism is deeply rooted in Christianity. But here is a difference between TM and Christian meditation. St. Teresa of Avila in the Interior Castle warned people not to seek the experience, which is the essence of TM. St. Teresa of Avila viewed the experience as a gift through the Grace of God, not something a person can gain on his/her own.
A traditional prayer of Christian meditation is the Jesus prayer, where posture and breathing may be used and is similar to Eastern practices.
Quote:
Striking parallels exist between the physical techniques recommended by the Byzantine Hesychasts and those employed in Hindu Yoga and in Sufism. How far are the similarities the result of the mere coincidence, of an independent though analogous development in two separate traditions? If there is a direct relation between Hesychasm and Sufism — which side has been borrowing from the other? Here is a fascinating field for research, although the evidence is perhaps too fragmentary to permit any definite conclusion. One point, however, should not be forgotten. Besides similarities, there are also differences. All pictures have frames, and all picture-frames have certain features in common; yet the pictures within the frames may be utterly different. What matters is the picture, not the frame. In the case of the Jesus Prayer, the physical techniques are as it were the frame, while the mental invocation of Christ is the picture within the frame. The ‘frame’ of Jesus Prayer certainly resembles various non-Christian ‘frames’, but this should not make us insensitive to the uniqueness of the picture within, to the distinctively Christian content of the Prayer. The essential point in the Jesus Prayer is not the act of repetition in itself, not how we sit or breathe, but to whom we speak; and in this instance the words are addressed unambiguously to the Incarnate Saviour Jesus Christ, Son of God and Son Mary.
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[bolding added]
http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Articl...Exercises.html
The author warns about focusing on other areas of the body and not the heart.
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iii) Inward exploration. Just as the aspirant in Yoga is taught to concentrate his thought in specific parts of his body, so the Hesychast concentrates his thought in the cardiac centre. While inhaling through his nose and propelling his breath down into his lungs, he makes his intellect ‘descend’ with the breath and he ‘searches’ inwardly for the place of the heart. Exact instructions concerning this exercise are not committed to writing for fear they should be misunderstood; the details of the process are so delicate that the personal guidance of an experienced master is indispensable. The beginner who, in the absence of such guidance, attempts to search for the cardiac centre, is in danger of directing his thought unawares into the area which lies immediately below the heart — into the abdomen, that is and the entrails, the effect on his prayer is disastrous, for this lower region is the source of the carnal thoughts and sensations which pollute the mind and the heart.
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The inward focusing on more than the just the heart, the seeking of the experience, the attempt to go into the interior while simultaneously trying to lift up the spirit are the concerns Christians have about Eastern philosophies mediation practices.
Additionally, Christians can use Lectio Divinia and/or Catholics use the Rosary in Meditation. |
And from the same article a mention of what I subscribe to. Although I would object to how pop culture treats all as on the same level and equally appropriate. Some pop movements are pretty much "fluff"only.
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"Perennial philosophy
Main article: Perennial philosophy
The Perennial philosophy (Latin: philosophia perennis),[note 1] also referred to as "perennialism", is a perspective within the philosophy of religion which views each of the world’s religious traditions as sharing a single, universal truth on which foundation all religious knowledge and doctrine has grown.
The term philosophia perennis was first used by Agostino Steuco (1497–1548),[33] drawing on an already existing philosophical tradition, the most direct predecessors of which were Marsilio Ficino (1433–1499) and Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463–94).
"The Temple of the Rose Cross", Teophilus Schweighardt Constantiens, 1618.
A major proponent in the 20th century was Aldous Huxley, who "was heavily influenced in his description by Vivekananda's neo-Vedanta and the idiosyncratic version of Zen exported to the west by D.T. Suzuki. Both of these thinkers expounded their versions of the perennialist thesis",[34] which they originally received from western thinkers and theologians.[35]
According to the Perennial Philosophy the mystical experiences in all religions are essentially the same. It supposes that many, if not all of the world's great religions, have arisen around the teachings of mystics, including Buddha, Jesus, Lao Tze, and Krishna. It also sees most religious traditions describing fundamental mystical experience, at least esoterically.
This popular approach finds supports in the "common core-thesis". According to the "common core-thesis",[36] different descriptions can mask quite similar if not identical experiences:[37]
People can differentiate experience from interpretation, such that different interpretations may be applied to otherwise identical experiences".[37]"
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| Show Me the Wire |
08-14-2013 03:40 PM |
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcap
Most Christians are not aware of the contemplative or allegorical roots of Christianity. Or for that matter how other religions also include the contemplative or allegorical This is from Wiki. The writer gives an excellent summation of religious mysticism. Here is his view of early Christianity.........
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Very difficult to do if you take the writings literally. |
Quote:
Originally Posted by SMTW
Yes mysticism is deeply rooted in Christianity. But here is a difference between TM and Christian meditation. St. Teresa of Avila in the Interior Castle warned people not to seek the experience, which is the essence of TM. St. Teresa of Avila viewed the experience as a gift through the Grace of God, not something a person can gain on his/her own.
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Do you practice meditation other than Christian prayer? How would you know enough to focus on differences rather than similarities? Remember my point is direct experiential appreciation is often better then speaking about what one doe not know. I try to immerse myself in, to quote W James the "Varieties of Religious Experience"
I will tell you that in the Sufi practice of the Dervishes of the Mevlevi order, the SEMA RITUAL which began with the inspiration of Mevlâna Jalâluddîn Rumi (1207-1273. Read his poetry please) one starts early in the ceremony bowing to and gazing into ones fellow dancers' eyes, searching for the divine spark within. And as one begins to turn on an individual axis focusing on a finger turned up to God !!, and as all dancers move around in a larger circle, in order to keep balanced while the world is spinning-apparently around you :) -focusing on your central "axis" becomes your salvation from falling on your butt. This central axis is only an analogue to what is within your being. The dancer learns to trust that inner guidepost in everyday life.
The rest is the phenomenal world that is always moving and that which we usually focus on.
http://www.whirlingdervishes.org/images/sema.JPG
It is a totally different approach than contemplative prayer or sitting meditation. Yet an inner peace is arrived at. Would you know first hand what that feels like if you haven't tried it. Or if in fact if it is any different than prayer?
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William James.....
James believed that the study of the origin of an object or an idea does not play a role in the study of its value. He asserted that existential judgment, or the scientific examination of an object's origin, is a separate matter from that object's value. As an example, he alluded to the Quaker religion and its founder, George Fox. Many of the scientists in James' audience immediately reject all aspects of the Quaker religion because evidence suggests that Fox was schizophrenic. Calling this rejection medical materialism, James insisted that the origin of Fox's notions about religion should not come into account when assessing the value of the Quaker religion. As an aside, many believe El Greco to have suffered from astigmatism, yet no one would dismiss his art based on this medical detail. James proposed, somewhat sarcastically, that his audience's atheism was perhaps a dysfunction of the liver. Some believe science to be superior to religion because of religion's seemingly vain, unfounded, or perhaps insane origin. In his lectures, James asserted that these claims, while perhaps historically or epistemologically interesting, play no role in the separate question of religion's value.
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| Show Me the Wire |
08-14-2013 04:41 PM |
In answer to your question, hcap, not any more.
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One of the reasons I mentioned Thomas Merton was he was Christian monk/mystic who also recognized interfaith dialogue as positive both spiritually and socially. :) :)
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