Controversial Thread Alert! Super Trainers. Good for the game? Bad for the game?
 

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...FPFq7Q.twitter

Excerpt:

He (Chad Brown) apologizes for nothing.

“I am doing a service to the industry by taking certain clients that I have had and doubling and tripling or even quadrupling the amount of horses they own since they first hired me,” he said. “That’s because they have had success with us. These are people who, if they were in another barn and weren’t doing as well, might not be in the game any longer. Be careful throwing too many arrows at the larger, successful stables that are cultivating owners, increasing the amount of dollars spent and the overall commerce in the sport. That trickles down to the breeders, the racetrack owners and others.”

To be a super trainer, you must be like Brown, focused solely on your career and willing to forego any sort of normal life.

“There’s a price for this,” said Mark Casse, who trains about 125 horses. “We don’t have days off. Not even Christmas. It’s an all-day deal, an all-night deal. Myself, I thrive on that. I get bored easily.”

“I work really hard at this,” Baffert said. “I don’t take vacations and I don’t go anywhere. It’s a lot of hard work and effort and that’s why I’m rewarded with a lot of good horses.”

For the whole article click the link.

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...FPFq7Q.twitter

I'm on the record saying that IMO Baffert is the Lance Armstrong of Horse Racing. I base that on the sudden deaths where 7 horses died of heart related issues and were all being given Thyr-L for no apparent reason. Then you add the other worldly success in the worlds biggest races. If the starting offensive line for the super bowl champs all died of the same thing in an 18 month period I'm pretty sure the FBI would investigate.

That's my belief. What's yours?

"A racetrack veterinarian contacted by the Paulick Report said the practice of routinely administering Thyro-L was not unusual."

Nor was it, I might add, illegal.

https://www.paulickreport.com/news/r...ng-wrong-here/

It isn't illegal but it should be. Giving any drugs looking for a performance edge and not treating a condition is a sad reality of the sport.

That's BS. It's highly unusual. He should've done more research. Everyone in the industry knows what was going on here, and which outfits suddenly started giving their horses Thyro-L and why.

Poor babies. Only these guys work hard. None of the other trainers work nearly as hard as they do. <huge eyeroll>

Do you buy the explanation for the sudden deaths? Remember during the investigation the CHRB Commissioner and B.B.'s friend sat in his box on a regular basis. No other Trainer anywhere would have been allowed to train during that investigation. It was swept under the rug and covered up IMO because B.B. was too big to fail.

I got the same feeling as you. They make me puke.

It's a tough life. They work 24/7/365 for the most part. But to talk as if it's only the "super trainers" who work that schedule is insulting to every non-super-trainer out there. Yes, maybe that one guy with 15 horses doesn't have as long of hours, but he's a very small, almost "part-time" trainer. The normal trainers ALL work those long hours. If anything, it may even be easier for the "super trainers" because they can and do afford to hire great assistants who do a lot of the work.

If it's highly unusual, why did the vet that Paulick Report reached out to say it wasn't unusual?

Who should I believe? A vet reported by Ray Paulick or "Fager Fan"?

Agree completely. Just wanted to point out some facts to those who might be unaware.

The explanation is BB ****ed up.

So he stopped using the drug, since, I guess, they came to the conclusion that was the cause?

But if it isn't unusual to use it, as the article states, then a lot more horses should be dropping dead...and they aren't.

Who cares how long anyone works?

The only thing that matters is winning.

You don't win, you starve.

By any means possible is their mantra.

"He said 'trickle-down'. Good enough for me!"--ghost of Ronald Reagan

"Throwing arrows..." :rolleyes:

I think the drug usage by the super trainers is rampant and since they've become too-big-to-fail it will only get worse.

Smaller outfits have little chance to compete with these guys.

Something ought to be done, but, who's going to do it?

They work long hard hours, good, so do a lot of the people that post here. This will not earn any extra credit from me.

When you are on top of the game, the "arrows" are going to be thrown. Deal with it. The best way would be to prove what you are doing is on the up and up. Do not give the arrow throwers ammunition by not addressing issues that arise. If it is a drug issue, put out in the public all the treatments that are administered to that horse. The non-transparency is just more ammunition.

And the one thing that is not mentioned, is that do the super-trainers really benifit the people who drive the industry, your customers?

Of course the "super trainers" are good for the game. They bring well-heeled owners into the game...which gives the game the "touch-of-class" that it sorely needs. After all...isn't this the "sport of kings"? And if the horseplayers don't like it...they could go play the slots.

2025 Kentucky Derby Presented by (FOR SALE)


1 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

1A Theraputic Med Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

1B Shock Wave Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

1C Rabbit Trainer: Todd Pletcher Owner: Repole Stable

2 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

2A Theraputic Med Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

2B Shock Wave Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

2C Rabbit Trainer: Chad Brown Owner: Dumb Money Racing

3 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

3A Theraputic Med Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

3B Shock Wave Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

3C Rabbit Trainer: Bob Baffert Owner: Winstar Farms

4 Clenbutrol Dependant Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

4A Theraputic Med Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

4B Shock Wave Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

4C Rabbit Trainer: Steve Assmussen Owner: Coolmore Farm

5 Lucky Runner Trainer: Lucky Trainer Owner: Lucky Stable

6 Easy Trip Trainer: Brad Cox Owner: A Bunch of People

7 Inflated Figure Trainer: Karl Broberg Owner: Karl Broberg

8 Pipe Dream Trainer: Robertino Doridorro Owner: Fred

Both are anonymous, aren't they?

And probably because he was one of the vets giving it so was defending the practice. Not that difficult to figure.

No Thyro-L didn't cause the sudden deaths. They claimed rat poison (warfarin?) was the cause.

I voted bad for the game.

Health of the game (field size/ability to card compelling races from a betting perspective) belongs in the conversation.

Hypothetical race: A peek at the condition book shows a first level turf allowance on Friday.

In today's game a guy like Brown might have 11 horses on the backside fitting that condition and another top guy might have 8.

Both trainers want to maintain their win pct so each enters only 1.

And the race goes to post with a field of 6.

Contrast that to the game as it existed back in say 2003.

If the same race were carded back then:

A guy like Brown might only have 4 fitting that condition and the other top guy might only have 3.

This is because the horses on the backside were more evenly distributed amongst the trainers.

Back then the same race likely goes to post with a field of 8.



-jp

.

Jeff P,

:ThmbUp:

Between what you point out and Jay's post, we'll be lucky to have races at all in a few years.

Except those staged for owners and breeders only.

You mean this one? Where they speculated it was because they used rat poison at GG, Del Mar, and Santa Anita?

http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com...hared-archive/

The only problem with that speculation of course is that the horses were all at Hollywood Park.

The "investigation" of Baffert was nothing more than a dog and pony show.

The biggest turds at the tracks are not in the barn, they ar in the Clubhouse.
The game needs to be regulated by the Feds, because of the various states involved.
Kind of like the ISO Standards - with third party certifications and audits.
It is a TOTAL JOKE to think any race track can police itself.
SUPER trainers are nothing more than equine mafia.

Hollywood Park was closed by the time this article was written. The article focused on a several sudden death cases that occurred at different California racetracks beyond the Baffert cluster, so the relevant information about rodenticide use was from those tracks that were still operating.

In the Baffert investigation, one horse was found to have rodenticide in its system while 2 or 3 of the remaining 6 were noted to have bled internally. Testing for rodenticides as part of a necropsy was not routine at the time, but because of the unusual finding in the Baffert investigation, it was implemented as part of the testing protocols. The TDN article was a summary of the initial results investigating an association between rodenticides and internal bleeding.

Justify.
Horse goes from being unable to get to the races at 2, to being a Triple Crown winner.

Trainers is one aspect that Hong Kong do right. In Hong Kong each trainer is limited to 60 runners in their stable at a time. A limit on runners per trainer is an easy rule to implement and enforce as well. All racing jurisdictions should have a limit on runners per trainer

Super trainers is a problem around the racing world right now. Aidan O'Brien is too dominant in Ireland. In Australia Chris Waller and Darren Weir have too many horses and win too many races

Secretariat was juiced to the gills. You probably think he's one of the best ever.

Look at that sucker's neck. Built like an NFL linebacker juicing like there is no tomorrow.

Look up the history of steroids and tell me the 1970s weren't the golden age of steroid usage in horse racing. Three triple crowns that decade...hmmmm...what a coincidence.

And Riva Ridge didn't do too shabby either...maybe he was their test case and they perfected the ratio with Secretariat.

Spot On Tom

:ThmbUp:

Tom...I am with you 110%

Perhaps it is time to start some grass-roots movement.
I'm sure we could find people in the press who would love the story.....

doesn't matter what i think

i'm not important enough in the grand scheme of things for my opinion to matter. Instead, it's my understanding of the system and my adaptability that I should be worried about.

Power concentrates. Should we be focused on artificially equalizing trainers? I do not know enough to have a valid opinion about that, but I do know that I'm not important enough to concern myself about it. I'll try my best to see and understand how it works and to adapt.

Maybe PA.
I was the one that brought up the steroids with Big Red in the first place.
(Anybody think Lucien Lauren was a great trainer before or after? They had to use Turcotte because he was the only one strong enough.)

Baffert and his breeder/owners have now perfected it.

Who's next?

PA,
To answer your question.
I thought he ran the greatest races ever, but, was far from the greatest horse ever.
The horse not only looked like a sprinter, he was bred that way.
Why do you think Phipps took the other horse with the coin flip?
Meadow Stable got hold of the juice to save the farm, is my opinion.
The old man had lost control of it when he got seriously ill.
I don't think he had anything to do with it - the drugging.

CHRB's Rick Arthur makes a good case for undetectable performance enhancing drugs in training that although out of system still enhance performance on race day. Also first time I've ever heard anyone speak of drugs that impede performance (I guess if you want to stiff a horse).

Been a big critic of Rick Arthur over the years but believe he's spot on in this case.

He may very well have been on steroids, but your understanding of how they work defeats your argument.

Steriods are primarily for recovery. They help speed up healing the inherent damage of physical exertion. Back in the 70s people didn't understand this. People didn't really understand this until the late 1990s to be honest.

They don't really make atheletes faster, they make them tougher and more aggressive/competitive. In regards to their increasing muscle mass, this is only a benefit in sports in which endurance is not an issue, because muscles are expensive energy-wise and they increase the weight to power ratio. As weight increases, power decreases. This is why just about any motorcycle can beat any car. This is one part of the diuretic/Lasix trinty, you literally drain weight to increase power. The other two parts are masking other drugs and buffering lactic acid.

In sprinters, the increase in muscle mass/strength increases strike force of foot/hoof to ground, which increases propulsion, but at a steep energy price. And it makes them aggressive, which you need when charging out of the gate/blocks. In humans the increasing muscle mass disadvantage is clearly seen in runners. Sprinters have legs like Popeye's arms, milers are much leaner, marathoners are skeletal. You see this less in swimming because of the power needed to dislocate water, but you still see it.

Being doped to the gills with steriods would have negatively impacted Secretariat's Belmont. However, moderate use would have kept his appetite healthy, his weight on, his energy up, his coat shiny, and his aggression stoked, which is seen in bucking, biting, fighting exercise riders etc. Horses that don't show the physical effects of 3 races in 5 weeks are on steroids. Period.

EPO did not exist in the 1970s or even the 1980s. It entered human sports in the 1990s, and likely did not take hold in horseracing until the 2000s. Say what you want about Secretariat, Slew, and Affirmed, but they weren't running on EPO and it is the most beneificial dope a doper can dope with because it increases your VO2 Max. They were running on their own inherent athletic capacity. You cannot say this of EPO-era horses, like AP and Justify. The odds these two horses are EPO free are greater than the odds of the 2nd Coming, coming at 6:47 this evening, just in time for hotdogs on the Solstice.

I loved Holy Bull too. He was almost certainly running on steriods.

You can replace Secretariat's name with Justify's in your comment and have an equally true discription of the horse. You can also hhmmmm about 2 TCs in 3 years, by the same trainer, and run almost identically. At least in the 70s, there were 3 very different horses, owned by wholly unconnected people, who ran completely different races.

The article in this thread about the peptide doping vortex out of Arizona should make us all pause. It is too bad the FBI has not released the whole list of clients. It has released the atheltes and human trainers it knows, but there are dozens of names it does not recognize. How many of those would we recognize I wonder.

the internet, where people speak vague understandings as if they are facts...