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-   -   The Holy Bull (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150244)

tophatmert 02-02-2019 05:09 PM

The Holy Bull
 
I will play a :1::5::6: exbox and bet the :1: w/p and hope for the inside trip with some late closing.

tophatmert 02-02-2019 05:15 PM

:1: looks like he may take more money and end up at 15-1 or so , I was hoping for a bit more .

tophatmert 02-02-2019 05:16 PM

Sorry missed the thread in triple crown.

Tom 02-02-2019 05:25 PM

Nice call on the :5:

I'm on my way out to the corner bar to have a couple of them after race!:lol:

Buckeye 02-02-2019 06:01 PM

I'm ashamed and sorry because the 5 was the fulcrum horse

and I didn't bet him, although I have let the cat out of the bag.

JustRalph 02-02-2019 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buckeye (Post 2426469)
I'm ashamed and sorry because the 5 was the fulcrum horse

and I didn't bet him, although I have let the cat out of the bag.

keep betting the fulcrum horse every race.............

and your bag will be empty pretty soon

cj 02-03-2019 12:36 AM

Been a long time since I read Handicapping Magic, but wasn't the fulcrum a speed horse thing? HW certainly isn't one of those.

PhantomOnTour 02-03-2019 01:28 AM

Did GP move their post times up today? Set my DVR to record the race and it was over before the recording started. My program guide for TVG listed a block of programming as the Holy Bull Stks but I missed it somehow.
????

headhawg 02-03-2019 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2426637)
Been a long time since I read Handicapping Magic, but wasn't the fulcrum a speed horse thing? HW certainly isn't one of those.

It was a 2nd call pace thing. Using the last race for each horse, find the fastest 2nd call time. The last race must have been competitive, and the time not unusually fast for the horse. Once the fulcrum pace has been determined the other horses running lines are compared to it in order to find the pace contenders.

I think I have this right; it's been a long time since I read the book as well. I always liked the concept but I don't think it had any practical handicapping value.

GMB@BP 02-03-2019 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headhawg (Post 2426701)
It was a 2nd call pace thing. Using the last race for each horse, find the fastest 2nd call time. The last race must have been competitive, and the time not unusually fast for the horse. Once the fulcrum pace has been determined the other horses running lines are compared to it in order to find the pace contenders.

I think I have this right; it's been a long time since I read the book as well. I always liked the concept but I don't think it had any practical handicapping value.

There is not a value to just 2nd call fractions, you would have to attach it to something else to find some kind of positive roi.

I have found top first call and top 2nd call are often very tough to beat, but they are also 3/5 most of the time.

Jeff P 02-03-2019 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headhawg (Post 2426701)
It was a 2nd call pace thing. Using the last race for each horse, find the fastest 2nd call time. The last race must have been competitive, and the time not unusually fast for the horse. Once the fulcrum pace has been determined the other horses running lines are compared to it in order to find the pace contenders.

I think I have this right; it's been a long time since I read the book as well. I always liked the concept but I don't think it had any practical handicapping value.

Sometime back in 2008 or 2009, a long time customer decided to pay me to build a custom version of JCapper.

He wanted me to add the following capabilities to JCapper: identify the fulcrum horse, rank and gap the other horses in the race relative to the fulcrum, and write fulcrum data for each horse in the race to a JCapper database. From there: Handle fulcrum data just like data for any other factor. Query the database, display query results for fulcrum data, and use fulcrum data in UDMs.

We agreed on a price, and he even sent me a copy of Handicapping Magic.

I worked mostly nights, an hour here, two hours there, squeezing in what little free time I could find. A few weeks later I had a working prototype and I sent him a download link.

Based on large data samples, there was nothing special about fulcrum data.

It turned out that if you created a simple average based on a horse's second call pace numbers (either Bris E2 Pace Fig or feet per second based on raw time) -- doing that was every bit as good (or bad) as the fulcrum.

This was true for the 10 most recent running lines, the last 3, the last 5, or those within X number of days, etc.

This was also true no matter what the surface, distance, or class level -- or whether or not you implemented rules for selecting or rejecting running lines based on any of the above.

No matter we looked at, the fulcrum was really no better (or worse) than whatever it was we were looking at.

While it's certainly true you can look at back races and find cases of winners that were mis-priced in the odds relative to the fulcrum --

It is every bit as true you can look at back races and find cases of winners that were mis-priced in the odds relative to second call running line numbers generated by just about any other means.

He and I were forced to conclude there was nothing special (from an roi standpoint) about the fulcrum.

The real key (from an roi standpoint) is the ability to identify horses that are mis-priced in the odds.

If the fulcrum helps you do that: great.

But as someone who has tested the fulcrum concept using large data samples:

The results you will get from an roi standpoint will be just as good (or bad) using second call numbers -- no matter how you select your running line(s.)


-jp

.

Jeff P 02-03-2019 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMB@BP (Post 2426715)
There is not a value to just 2nd call fractions, you would have to attach it to something else to find some kind of positive roi.

I have found top first call and top 2nd call are often very tough to beat, but they are also 3/5 most of the time.

Keep in mind the book Handicapping Magic was published in the year 2000.

The game has evolved a bit, and public betting trends too since then.


-jp

.

cj 02-03-2019 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by headhawg (Post 2426701)
It was a 2nd call pace thing. Using the last race for each horse, find the fastest 2nd call time. The last race must have been competitive, and the time not unusually fast for the horse. Once the fulcrum pace has been determined the other horses running lines are compared to it in order to find the pace contenders.

I think I have this right; it's been a long time since I read the book as well. I always liked the concept but I don't think it had any practical handicapping value.

That sounds right, and this horse came out of a race with a 1:14+ 3/4 time, much slower than the others. Maybe the program does something different these days. Pretty sure this horse was literally the slowest 6f time. This is why I was confused.

headhawg 02-03-2019 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2426842)
That sounds right, and this horse came out of a race with a 1:14+ 3/4 time, much slower than the others. Maybe the program does something different these days. Pretty sure this horse was literally the slowest 6f time. This is why I was confused.

Um...it's not you. Consider the source. ;)

Tom 02-03-2019 06:23 PM

I had the :1: as the fulcrum at 110.1 even though it was a 1-turn mile.


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