The US citizen has the option to "take that deal" now.

I don't know who all those people I see at Wal-Mart are, but they look like US citizens to me. It seems clear which side of that deal they prefer.

What some of us "protest" against is the government taking away that choice.

This is misuse of statistics, data and economic theory.

Looking at a snapshot of data does not tell what that data would have been with the conditions changed. Basically, whatever the data is, it might have been worse of better without free trade.

But again, when you are running a huge trade deficit, that means on a net basis wealth is leaving your country. You are slowly selling off the family farm to consume more than the farm produces.

I find it comical that when a company leaves California because of the higher taxes, tougher regulations, higher salaries, higher employee benefits etc.. everyone realizes that CA is losing jobs, incomes, and wealth to other states, but no one can figure out that wealth is pouring out of the US when we run trade deficits. It's literally comical how brainwashed people have become.

This is getting really serious. The last American company making steel beer kegs says that the Trump tariffs could put them out of business. :eek:

http://reason.com/blog/2018/03/12/ki...iffs-kill-jobs

Why cause they wont have any steel?

Because they are facing a large increase in the cost of the steel they use to make kegs. Their competition is foreign-made kegs. Foreign makers don't have the big tax increase on the steel they use, and finished steel products like kegs don't have tariffs applied when they are imported into this country. As the only producer faced with these cost increases, they may not be able to compete.

Other American producers of products that use a lot of steel will be facing the same problem. They will have to compete against foreign companies that pay a lot less for their steel.

These tariffs are good for the 140,000 people who work in the US steel industry. They are harmful for the 5 million Americans who work in industries that use steel as an input.

Pa. Sen. Pat Toomey, former head of the globalist Club for Growth, said today on radio here that this company bought its steel from domestic manufacturers, not from foreign producers.

Sorry, but this transfer of wealth has to end, and it must end now. If someone's daddy in Ohio now prospers because of bad and corrupt trade deals such as NAFTA, GATT and TPP with the results that we lost 60,000 factories being closed, I have little sympathy.

Same with this Pottstown, Pa. beer keg company. Someone is lying here about this story, I have a feeling.

Maybe they figure that domestic manufacturers will increase their prices?

Couldn't possibly be the politician...:rolleyes:

Must be the guy paying his bills making steel kegs... :rolleyes:triple eyeroll:rolleyes:

purchase American steel at the same cost? bet that would also create more American employment. What about the tariffs on importing these beer kegs into the USA?

TARIFFS ON ALCOHOL?!?!?! :eek:

To steal FanDan's recent and awesome video post...


But in all seriousness the reason why the United States doesn't currently produce all the steel that it uses domestically is because it can't given the current price of steel globally, the cost to manufacture, required up front investment, surplus elsewhere, etc...

Its not a profitable proposition that's why isn't done already. By artificially inflating the cost of steel you create a false domestic demand and raise the price.

Didn't you tell me Trump was making everything great for the rich business leaders and shitting on the middle class?

So now he's shitting on business too?

What to make of this man? Does he confuse you too?

Maybe you should be cheering him now? Better consult the playbook for a way out of that predicament! :pound:

Trump has been picking up plenty of support from liberal democrats lately. he has been losing support from evangelical republican voters. he is losing support from republican women, but some liberal democratic women love him. bottom line is he really doesn't have to do to much more to get re-elected. when you shake up the tree, there are many more democrats than republicans these days and to get elected you need plenty of democrats voting for you in the right places and Trump knows how to get them to pull the lever.

To keep things very simple, if imported steel prices went up 30%, do you believe that US steel makers will keep their prices at the current levels? You don't think they might increase their prices by 15-20%?

Even factoring out any greed on the part of steel companies, if import prices go up 30%, demand for US steel would increase, driving up prices as steel makers increased output with the probability of higher costs at the margin.

:lol:Well that is what the dim leaders keep saying on TV, and they know more than us:lol::lol::lol:

I give the politician the benefit of the doubt. He isn't lying, just clueless. Politicians generally ignore the unintended consequences of government regulation, like a tariff on imported steel allows prices on domestic steel to increase by a lesser amount and still be competitive.

Which is why politicians should keep their fingers out of things they don't understand, like trade. Or health care. Or guns. Or the free market.

Look clock, I am no longer in the mood to play the merry-go-round game that this thread is becoming. It's not a knock on you, but enough already.

To keep things very simple, as you say ... we do know the simple facts:

-- 43 years of consecutive trade deficits since 'free' and unfettered trade accelerated.

-- These 'free' trade treaties have resulted in trillions of US dollars and wealth transferred overseas.

-- Tens of thousands of factories and plants closed with millions of job losses.

-- You first mentioned how this tariff will destroy the consumer. My example of a $100 increase on a $30,000 purchase is not destructive to the consumer.

Claims by you and others, here and elsewhere, are basically saying the US economy will crater, hyperbole intended, thanks to the Trump tariff and the America First policy.

So, to keep this all very simple, why don't we wait 2-3 years and see how the tariffs and the results to our overall economy play out?

Nobody is making you "play". If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I am not playing any game here, I am pointing out the reality of the economics of tariffs. Reality that experts on both sides of the aisle acknowledge. Reality that Trump and his nationalist cadre refuse to accept.

You say that like it is a bad thing. Proof?

I never said "crater", and I am not aware of any other serious poster here that did either. I said, and continue to say, that we know from experience that tariffs will seriously hurt the average consumer. And we know from the Bush tariffs that they were job killers. But you continue to write that off to Bush rather than the tariffs. There is no evidence to show that the tariffs would benefit anyone other than the owners and workers in a few selected industries.

This is not new stuff. We have hundreds of years of experience with tariffs, and we know the consequences. Why should we wait years, when Trump's own campaign admitted the consequences?

http://thefederalist.com/2016/03/01/...-middle-class/

... I can't take the heat ?? Ha Ha. I make more heat on here than most. And contribute a lot more too.

You, as a matter of fact, never contribute an original thought or go out on the lamb with any 'hot' point of view... you just hide in the shadows and wait for the dust to settle and then you have all the answers and criticisms, just like a typical snark.

Experts on both sides of the aisle?? You're joking ... no, I take that back; you're not joking.

Your reality of truth has now been discounted by the millions and millions of people who had their jobs disappear and their incomes slashed thanks to unfettered, corrupted 'free' trade contracts these past 43 years.

What more proof do you want? Some graph coming from the US gov't that caused all this?? Or a press release from the Chamber of Commerce or trade assn. who bought the same politicians off in the first place and who benefits the most from all this? Yes, that's it: both sides of the corrupt bargain, 20th century rendition --that being the US government and their Fortune 500 co-conspirators-- both screwing the American worker and US taxpayer in concert. Take your pick.

The implication by you and others is our economy will tank because of the Trump steel Tariffs. Do you deny this? I said crater, and I also wrote hyperbole intended. If you want to play wise ass and parse everything you don't like that I write, than you need to demonstrate much more creativity than what you've 'showcased' so far.

Well we need not have to talk about hundreds of years, just the last 43 years of consecutive trade deficits will do. That's a nice enough 'consequence' to convince most people that this 'free' trade system has failed the USA.

Your idea of 'free' trade has resulted in the decimation of the middle class that saw their incomes crater and their jobs gone. They now need to shop at crappy '99 cent' type stores and eat shitty $1 Happy Meals. And they don't do so because it's their 'choice' as you say... it's done out of necessity for many people because of all these perceived 'benefits' of 'free' trade.

Straight out of The Donald Playbook. If you can't attack the facts, attack the person. :lol:

Why trade deficits are a good thing, presented by both sides of the aisle, a GOP Senator writing in a far left newspaper.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...=.96f929c0e787

How tariffs hurt most Americans...
 

...while protecting a chosen few.

https://townhall.com/columnists/walt...riffs-n2459974

Typical response by an anti-Trump troll who proves it regularly by creating your very own hate-Trump narrative. You're being laughed at with your hatred for Trump.

btw, I did provide some facts -- the ones that are true and a result of all this 'free' trade you espouse. W. Bush destroying the US economy led the way for Barack Obama -- and Bush's own steel tariff was not the reason for the destruction W. caused. Keep hitching your wagon to Pappy and W. Bush and see how far that gets you in the credibility game.

PS--I noticed you've avoided telling us again how the closing of 60,000 factories and millions of jobs lost -- along with the trillions of wealth shipped overseas -- has been good for the USA since 'free' trade deals have been accelerating.

Oh yeah, you did try once -- you said we now have the free choice to shop at Wal-Mart, Dollar stores and eat $1 happy meals. :lol::lol: :lol:

I believe in the current lingo, those are referred to as false facts. :p

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.7b999e7e8744

Lost "since" the deals does not mean lost "because" of the deals.

https://www.ft.com/content/dec677c0-...5-95d1533d9a62

Apparently those left-wing moonbats at the Wall Street Journal are Trump haters too. From an editorial about the tariffs at that liberal rag:

https://www.redstate.com/sweetie15/2...rs-warn-folly/

Actually the WSJ are Trump haters ... but to the Trump haters, who cares?

While the WSJ are not left wing moonbats, especially in the manner of which you snark, they are for those same unfair and unfettered 'free' trade deals that you agree with and support.

They are the media front group who acts as de-facto lobbyists for the Fortune 500 multinationals and the local US Chambers of Commerce.

The editors of the WSJ, along with their Big Business corporate cronies (and add those politicians they own as well) never eat $1 Happy Meals, I assure you.

Sorry I can't say the same thing for the many millions of working class American citizens that had their jobs outsourced overseas, their wages cut or left stagnant at best for many years now and their tax burden raised to pay for the huge national debt caused primarily by trade deficits.

A good article from the Mises Institute: "Manufacturing Jobs Are Overrated".

The rest of the article is here:
https://mises.org/wire/manufacturing-jobs-are-overrated

The huge national debt is caused by politicians spending more money than is taken in through taxes. That is called a fiscal deficit. It has nothing to do with trade or the trade deficit.

And the trade deficit is not a bad thing. A trade deficit means that we buy more goods from foreign countries than they buy from us. But that also results in a capital surplus for us, which means that foreigners invest more money in our country than we invest in theirs. Which creates jobs for Americans.

I just wish the tariffs were higher on aluminum. I hope the aluminum tariff helps run Chinese 6061 aluminum out of the USA. The stuff is poor quality and difficult to work with for what I use aluminum for. Over the 3 decades I have been self employed it has gotten an increased market share. A lot of suppliers sell Chinese that used to only sell domestic. Problem is the smaller sizes of raw stock are not marked by the mill so you have to trust the supplier. I can take one cut and tell if the stuff is Chinese crap or not.

I added a statement of all of my POs for aluminum and steel "No foreign materials accepted." I then had a list of approved US suppliers/mills that had to be used androvide certification.

For years, every tool we bought from China was substandard, inccomplete, of just plain screwed up and required rework/repairs before we could ship to our customer.

With a guys like Trump running the narrative who needs facts?

If I remember correctly Clocker brought up our service exports in this country and not a peep from the tariff folks.

Trump keeps making a wildly misleading claim about trade between the US and Canada

A POTUS not telling the truth!

:sleeping:

That doesn't work for me with suppliers that mix their materials on the small unmarked sizes. There can be Chinese and USA 3/8" round bars in the same trough on a rack unbundled. If you ask for certs they will just send you a copy of the mill certs for the last shipment they received. The Capitol of the Confederacy is horrible for sourcing materials, but I have to play the hand I am dealt. Back when I was in California the suppliers were good about not mixing materials that were not marked, not the case here. I can't be competitive on a lot of jobs if I have the material trucked in as freight and handling costs have went up way past the rate of inflation. Most of the time I am stuck buying locally.

I know places that will outsource to low end Chinese shops and figure they are still money ahead even figuring the cost of 100% inspection, throwing away all bad parts and reworking the ones that are salvageable.

A place a friend worked in California got rid of a whole department that made their simple electrical contacts and outsourced them to China knowing full well from samples the Chinese shop had quality issues. They figured they still save 10-20% by outsourcing and paying a group of people $12 an hour to sort out the bad ones using a microscope and micrometers. My friend was a tool and die maker. Instead of having a full tool and die shop they outsourced to China and had my friend and a helper rework all the out of spec items.

The EU will meet next week to seek exemption. In the meantime they are assembling a block to strike back should they not receive one...

With friends like Trump who needs enemies right...?

These are our allies.

We are going to be in sorry sape for mold-makers. That is NOT something you take a two year course and go about and do.
We are not going to be able to react to a crisis in the future. We will be forever out of the tooling business without trained
mold makers at our service.

If you need shit, go to China - they have all you can use.

btw, did you ever run in tot Chinese NEw Year Syndrome?
Half the people working our your project will not come back to work after the February shut down and your deadlines are now moot.

Whatever the costs, being self-reliant in EVERYTHING outweighs all the negatives.

No it doesn't.

Being free to do what you are best and most productive at is.

Break it down to the ridiculous... you aren't completely self-reliant. Even if you were you wouldn't be nearly as happy.

True, he wouldn't have the joy of grumbling about the incompetents he has to deal with. :p

I'm talking about the country being self reliant.
Being dependent on other nations is like the sheeple being dependent on the government.

I'll gladly pay more for stuff made here if it means jobs for Americans and more self-reliance overall.

No you won't because some stuff we don't produce here cheaply. Even so... to say you would means you're okay at putting yourself at a financial disadvantage against the rest of the world.

Secondly, at this point I'm getting really tired of this "more jobs for Americans" trope.

We are at 4% unemployment with a shrinking workforce. Who in the hell is going to fill them?

The way you people talk this place is in the shitter... until you remind us how great it's going...

It's going pretty great you are right... Why regulate?