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-   -   Gulfstream sticking it to horseplayers again (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142505)

jay68802 12-31-2017 08:01 PM

Since we are going to give theories about this subject, here is mine.

Horse racing is afraid of technology. Track managers and horsemen think accurate information will ruin the sport. Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.

cj 12-31-2017 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay68802 (Post 2256044)
Since we are going to give theories about this subject, here is mine.

Horse racing is afraid of technology. Track managers and horsemen think accurate information will ruin the sport. Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.

Smaller fields and too many restricted races are the biggest reason prices have dropped IMO.

JustRalph 12-31-2017 08:38 PM

It’s simple. They save 2 salaries by not giving a shit about timing. They would probably have to hire 2 people to fix it and then keep things up.

jay68802 12-31-2017 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2256051)
Smaller fields and too many restricted races are the biggest reason prices have dropped IMO.

True, But the fact remains that the track at Gulfstream does not move. And the ability to run races at a specific distance with a run up of x ft is easy to do. And it follows that timing of those same races is just as easy. If this was a one time thing then, well, let it go. But its not, it has been a problem that has been happening for years and it makes people wonder why.

thespaah 12-31-2017 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2256051)
Smaller fields and too many restricted races are the biggest reason prices have dropped IMO.

Racing secretaries are spineless when dealing with the horsemen.
They write races to suit the demands of the trainers. The horsemen want small fields.
That is purely my opinion.

Fager Fan 12-31-2017 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay68802 (Post 2256044)
Since we are going to give theories about this subject, here is mine.

Horse racing is afraid of technology. Track managers and horsemen think accurate information will ruin the sport. Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.

That's what handicappers should worry about. Trainers and owners only care that they win the race. It's a big leap to think that they want to screw up the timing to screw up speed figures to make gamblers happy.

Fager Fan 12-31-2017 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thespaah (Post 2256072)
Racing secretaries are spineless when dealing with the horsemen.
They write races to suit the demands of the trainers. The horsemen want small fields.
That is purely my opinion.

Pure silliness. Trainers want races to go. You really think they somehow are manipulating the field sizes to be small? I'd love to hear how you figure they're pulling that off.

jay68802 01-01-2018 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256084)
That's what handicappers should worry about. Trainers and owners only care that they win the race.

You are right they want to win races. Some of them don't care how they do it, either. Danny Robertson, a clocker, was bribed by trainers to report slower work out times on their horses. Why? They wanted higher win mutual on their bet.


It's a big leap to think that they want to screw up the timing to screw up speed figures to make gamblers happy.

Then why not have accurate timing and distances? Why should it be off in some cases and just plain false in others. Whats the reason?

Fager Fan 01-01-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jay68802 (Post 2256102)
Then why not have accurate timing and distances? Why should it be off in some cases and just plain false in others. Whats the reason?

I long ago learned to not take work times as gospel. I know of too many instances of inaccuracies, and not usually for nefarious purposes. And yes, there are known times where clockers weren't on thee up and up, including wanting to keep info to themselves for betting purposes.

I have no idea what the problems are with timing at GP. I assume someone has asked, so what was the answer? CJ could certainly call and ask. But I'm sure they're not deliberately messing up the times to mess up speed figures to supposedly raise prices on horses and make handicappers happy. Clearly they're not happy, right?

Though it's a good point that the wealth of info at handicappers' fingertips have driven down prices.

Andy Asaro 01-01-2018 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro (Post 2255284)
https://twitter.com/racetrackandy/st...60670277025792





Let's Take Action

https://www.classaction.org/free-case-evaluation

If you've been harmed by a company's negligence or misconduct, you may have the right to sue for your losses. At ClassAction.org, we help people take action.


Afleet 01-01-2018 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256085)
Pure silliness. Trainers want races to go. You really think they somehow are manipulating the field sizes to be small? I'd love to hear how you figure they're pulling that off.

trainer enters multiple horses to get the race to go(fill) then scratch the one's he/she never planned on running in the first place. Happens all the time

Fager Fan 01-01-2018 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro (Post 2256117)

Sure, get rich scheme for the lawyer.

It's too bad you don't put your collective power to better use. You're going to end hard-pressed to prove damages on this one. Why not go after drugs? It's far more easily proven how someone is damaged.

It's hard to take you seriously when you throw out class action suit both over this and also when it never happens.

Andy Asaro 01-01-2018 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256130)
Sure, get rich scheme for the lawyer.

It's too bad you don't put your collective power to better use. You're going to end hard-pressed to prove damages on this one. Why not go after drugs? It's far more easily proven how someone is damaged.

It's hard to take you seriously when you throw out class action suit both over this and also when it never happens.

What's your solution to the chronic timing problems and having false times show up in the PP's we pay for?

Fager Fan 01-01-2018 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro (Post 2256133)
What's your solution to the chronic timing problems and having false times show up in the PP's we pay for?

Really?

Don't bet Gulfstream if it's a real issue for you.

lamboguy 01-01-2018 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro (Post 2256133)
What's your solution to the chronic timing problems and having false times show up in the PP's we pay for?

here is a very simple solution, stop buying the racing form and get off your ass and go to the track and time your own horses.

these fake times are nothing new in this game, especially in Florida

Fager Fan 01-01-2018 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Afleet (Post 2256127)
trainer enters multiple horses to get the race to go(fill) then scratch the one's he/she never planned on running in the first place. Happens all the time

That's the opposite from manipulating for the purpose of having a small field, as you admit it's done to try to get a small field larger for the purpose of having it go.

Andy Asaro 01-01-2018 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256136)
Really?

Don't bet Gulfstream if it's a real issue for you.

Poor timing happens everywhere but Gulfstream is the worst.

And in other words you don't have a solution. It goes directly to the integrity of the game and making sure the PP's people pay for and use have the most accurate data possible.

Andy Asaro 01-01-2018 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lamboguy (Post 2256139)
here is a very simple solution, stop buying the racing form and get off your ass and go to the track and time your own horses.

these fake times are nothing new in this game, especially in Florida

Get off my ass and go to Gulfstream instead of expecting accurate data in the past performances I buy? I live in San Diego for one...........

Denny 01-01-2018 05:42 PM

It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Denny 01-01-2018 05:54 PM

Not to be misunderstood. I don't mean figures themselves have ruined things.

I meant to say the widespread AVAILABILITY of good figures at little to no cost has taken away their advantage and it's only getting worse.

That City of Light horse last week is good example. Horse should have been 15-1 or more based on old handicapping. Instead he wins at 7-1.

Tom 01-01-2018 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro (Post 2256144)
Get off my ass and go to Gulfstream instead of expecting accurate data in the past performances I buy? I live in San Diego for one...........

Can you pick me up on your way?
I live in NY.:p

Redboard 01-02-2018 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny (Post 2256264)
It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Good point. On the other hand, since there's very little value to be had anymore (from honestly analyzing the past performances) why not just play the tote and let everyone else do the handicapping for you? In the past few months I started doing this and have found myself doing better than digging all night to find that 12-1 who ends up going off at 7/2.

Of course there are the last-second bets that tend to screw everything up.

cj 01-02-2018 02:15 PM


AltonKelsey 01-02-2018 02:31 PM

Apparently, since speed figs , pace, trip notes have ruined the game, everyone complaining was winning before this happened.

Congrats.

dilanesp 01-02-2018 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AltonKelsey (Post 2256502)
Apparently, since speed figs , pace, trip notes have ruined the game, everyone complaining was winning before this happened.

Congrats.

Really!

Just like nobody got killed in the stock market in the days before securities laws required prospectuses and annual reports.

thaskalos 01-02-2018 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilanesp (Post 2256551)
Really!

Just like nobody got killed in the stock market in the days before securities laws required prospectuses and annual reports.

I love it whenever the stock market crashes. I tell all my friends that I lost my money "in the market"...and I get real SYMPATHY! When they see me losing at gambling, not only do I get no "sympathy"...but they point an accusing finger at me, while warning their kids not to "turn out like me".

I guess it isn't whether you lose or not that's important. It's whether or not you lose in a "respectable manner". :)

Denny 01-02-2018 05:49 PM

Alton,
I was killing the game once with my own figures. Those days are long gone.

Now i need to use patience - and figures alone aren't enough anymore.
Yet, you never quite know when an opportunity will present itself.

For example:
Yesterday, last night, there was a P5 carryover at Pompano Park that I handicapped. In a race there was a solid Single at 2-1 ML. Figured he'd be even-money.
When the race came up, couldn't believe the horse was totally overlooked at 5-1 and I made a nice win bet.
I didn't hit the P5 (missed another race) but collected a $12.20 mutuel and a $27.20 exacta.
These things just don't come up that often.

Valuist 01-03-2018 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny (Post 2256264)
It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Physicality may be the last bastion.

I'm also not convinced there's no benefit to trip handicapping, as it is so subjective.

thaskalos 01-03-2018 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny (Post 2256264)
It could certainly be argued that Speed Figures have ruined the game for numerous horseplayers.
It's awfully hard to find value any more.

Trip handicapping is also of little benefit, as everyone has access to replays and very little is missed.
Now, one of the few things left - pace figures - are also losing value.

What's left for the hobbyist to do?

Bowling is a lot of fun. :)

cj 01-03-2018 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2256705)
Bowling is a lot of fun. :)


They've made it too easy. Quit a decade ago and never looked back.

thaskalos 01-03-2018 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2256707)
They've made it too easy. Quit a decade ago and never looked back.

I agree...that's why I only use an old, cheap bowling ball with a polyester coverstock. I want the 200-game to MEAN something. :ThmbUp:

GMB@BP 01-03-2018 10:04 AM

Seems timing doesnt seem to be a big deal as GP had the biggest gains year over last of any track in the country.

the things that seem to matter to us just do not resonate with the player the tracks target.

cj 01-03-2018 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GMB@BP (Post 2256741)
Seems timing doesnt seem to be a big deal as GP had the biggest gains year over last of any track in the country.

the things that seem to matter to us just do not resonate with the player the tracks target.

Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

GMB@BP 01-03-2018 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2256744)
Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

ok, thanks for that tid bit. makes a lot more sense.

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2256744)
Yep, what can you do? I'll keep talking about it. I'd argue they'd be up even more if they did things right. I also think a lot of that being "up" is phony...they are selling their signal dirt cheap to some big, big bettors.

Who are they selling their signal to dirt cheap? And how is it supposedly phony?

And have you called and discussed the problems? What is their explanation?

cj 01-03-2018 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fager Fan (Post 2256767)
Who are they selling their signal to dirt cheap? And how is it supposedly phony?

And have you called and discussed the problems? What is their explanation?

I already answered the first one. You expect me to print a list of names? LOL. That is all you are getting from me. I've never been one to make stuff up. Believe it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

It is phony because they are making a lot less on their "handle" than other tracks. Plenty others would be up if they had a bargain basement sale on bets.

Yes, I've had discussions with Tim Ritvo and PJ Campo in the past. They proved fruitless. The explanation from Gulfstream is they really don't understand and they really don't care. I can only beat my head against the wall so long.

They don't really care for me much because I've caught them on mistiming the Pegasus and also placing the gate in the wrong place for the Ladies' Turf Sprint won by Lady Shipman a few years ago. I even gave them the courtesy of telling them first only to be blown off and told I was wrong both times initially---I wasn't.

cj 01-03-2018 02:12 PM


VigorsTheGrey 01-03-2018 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thaskalos (Post 2256708)
I agree...that's why I only use an old, cheap bowling ball with a polyester coverstock. I want the 200-game to MEAN something. :ThmbUp:



AskinHaskin 01-03-2018 02:53 PM

If only racing society had known in 1955 that to call the distance of the San Juan Capistrano "about" 1 3/4 Miles equated to "another middle finger to bettors".

One wonders why nobody has caught on to same until last week on Pace Advantage.




Quote:

Originally Posted by jay68802 (Post 2256044)
Since speed figures have become available the payouts have dropped, and lower payouts is why they lost attendance and are unable to attract new customers. If they allow accurate information to be widely available their sport will continue to decline.


That's a classic interpretation of the reality right beneath your collective eyes.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Asaro (Post 2256144)
Get off my ass...........


That'll be the day

Fager Fan 01-03-2018 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cj (Post 2256810)
I already answered the first one. You expect me to print a list of names? LOL. That is all you are getting from me. I've never been one to make stuff up. Believe it or don't, doesn't matter to me.

Yes, I do. Why not? It's well known that rebate shops are sold the signal at a far lower cost. That doesn't make the handle coming from them "phony."

Quote:

It is phony because they are making a lot less on their "handle" than other tracks. Plenty others would be up if they had a bargain basement sale on bets.
So what? All the tracks have special rates for rebate shops, other tracks, non-profits, etc, so I guess they all have phony handle.

Quote:

Yes, I've had discussions with Tim Ritvo and PJ Campo in the past. They proved fruitless. The explanation from Gulfstream is they really don't understand and they really don't care. I can only beat my head against the wall so long.
Well, that's enlightening. Why not just report their reasons instead your opinion of their reasons?


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