Originally Posted by mgoldie1

He has not vetoed it yet.

Just found an interesting article regarding the possible problems if sports betting is instituted:

http://artherworldblog.wordpress.com...dead-or-alive/

These concerns, in my opinion, are why Christie will probably veto it.

Originally Posted by thespaah

I would suspect the only state involvement would be regulatory and of course have the ability to tax the wagers.
Apparently the law states that a STATE cannot be an operator of a sports wagering enterprise.
In my mind that means the State can regulate and tax the operation.

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Legalized sports betting is another nail in the coffin for NJ horse racing and horse racing in general if it spreads to others states which we know it will. It will draw more bettors away from the sport.
The question remains what happens if the sports leagues reverse course and stop opposing sports betting and start demanding a cut? You have to believe with the court rulings that national fantasy sports leagues have pay a cut to the NFL, MLB, etc , they would be entitled to their cut. The only question is how much would they want. Maybe that is why the Clippers are worth 2 billion dollars.

Originally Posted by Bluto Blutarsky

Just saw this in today's paper-

Christie deflected another gambling question – about whether he would sign into law an amended sports betting bill passed by the Legislature last week that would allow the wagering at the state’s racetracks and Atlantic City casinos. While the U.S. Supreme Court declined to take the case last week, various federal attorneys during the two-year court battle had laid out a blueprint as to how New Jersey could craft a new betting law that does not violate a limited 1992 ban on sports betting.

“I have not yet reviewed the bill, and I have 45 days in which to review the bill,” Christie said. “As soon as I do and make my decision, I won’t be shy.”

Originally Posted by thespaah

Maybe.. But this link shows one person's theory.

Originally Posted by thespaah

The GOP is the minority party in both the NJ Senate as well as the General Assembly.
The NJ Senate is 40 members. 24 Democrat, 16 GOP
The Gen Assembly is 80 members, 48 democrat, 32 GOP

Originally Posted by onefast99

Exactly, the numbers Gov C will have in front of him showing the money that the state can get from this will be the deciding factor. Look no further than the budget balancing act Christie is toying with right now signed 3 days ago for $32.5b, this could be a much needed revenue stream for NJ.

Originally Posted by Canarsie

1. Seriously how many people are going to drive to the track to place a bet?

2. Does the track extend credit for a few days if the account is negative?

3. Where do you have a better chance being robbed? After collecting at the track or being paid at a mutually agreed place by a runner?


4. Will the state be intelligent enough to stop a wise guy from hitting the middle and clean up do to their stupidity?


5.The wise guys will pound them into the ground the first few weeks do you really think a government official is smart enough to oversee something like this?




Knowledgeable dissenting views are always welcome.

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Whoever does the numbers is lying before they get started. Let me list reasons why this will be an epic failure.

Seriously how many people are going to drive to the track to place a bet?

Does the track extend credit for a few days if the account is negative?

Will they send a courier to deliver your money in the rare case you make a big taxable (if they decide to) hit? Will they send someone if you won $100? Will they pay for your gas and time to collect your winnings?

Where do you have a better chance being robbed? After collecting at the track or being paid at a mutually agreed place by a runner?

If you want to try and get even the next day will they take your action over the phone?

Will the state be intelligent enough to stop a wise guy from hitting the middle and clean up do to their stupidity?


I don't know a single soul who would drive from my area to Monmouth (less than 15 miles) to place a wager. Do an unscientific survey and ask your friends that question. My hunch is the only time they will say "yes" is if they are at the track already.


The wise guys will pound them into the ground the first few weeks do you really think a government official is smart enough to oversee something like this?

Just like when OTB opened up the big winners will be the bookies. People are already playing the same slot games offered in NJ for years on the offshore sites in Costa Rica. Once again the credit thing comes into it along with John Q. Public not wanting the wife to know.

This is doomed for failure before it even starts. Even poker in NJ has been extremely disappointing.

New Jersey Online Poker Revenues Drop Another 12 Percent in May

http://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/2...2-percent-may/


Knowledgeable dissenting views are always welcome.

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Whoever does the numbers is lying before they get started. Let me list reasons why this will be an epic failure.

Seriously how many people are going to drive to the track to place a bet?

Does the track extend credit for a few days if the account is negative?

Will they send a courier to deliver your money in the rare case you make a big taxable (if they decide to) hit? Will they send someone if you won $100? Will they pay for your gas and time to collect your winnings?

Where do you have a better chance being robbed? After collecting at the track or being paid at a mutually agreed place by a runner?

If you want to try and get even the next day will they take your action over the phone?

Will the state be intelligent enough to stop a wise guy from hitting the middle and clean up do to their stupidity?


I don't know a single soul who would drive from my area to Monmouth (less than 15 miles) to place a wager. Do an unscientific survey and ask your friends that question. My hunch is the only time they will say "yes" is if they are at the track already.


The wise guys will pound them into the ground the first few weeks do you really think a government official is smart enough to oversee something like this?

Just like when OTB opened up the big winners will be the bookies. People are already playing the same slot games offered in NJ for years on the offshore sites in Costa Rica. Once again the credit thing comes into it along with John Q. Public not wanting the wife to know.

This is doomed for failure before it even starts. Even poker in NJ has been extremely disappointing.

New Jersey Online Poker Revenues Drop Another 12 Percent in May

http://pokerfuse.com/news/industry/2...2-percent-may/


Knowledgeable dissenting views are always welcome.

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Again please explain to me how this has anything to do with the governor who you ripped when certain things are beyond his control. He pledged tax cuts but there are none because the legislature balked. Same deal with Atlantic City but now you are concentrating solely on Camden.

The aquarium was a mistake the day it was conceived lets go all the way back to 1994

Camden's Aquarium Risks Ignominy; Drab Exhibits a Problem as Complex Fails to Lift Waterfront

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/17/ny...ails-lift.html

What a tremendous waste of taxpayer money people choose to spend their money elsewhere.

The 76ers got a $82 million dollar tax break to locate there another waste of taxpayer dollars. People don't go watch them in the regular season how many will watch practice besides their inept (evaluating basketball they stole this money) executives. This isn't even a NJ team the EDA should be disbanded.

You kill the governor for investing $263 million but its ok for 82 mil to be spent on this disgrace. Be consistent at least it will enhance your argument slightly.


There will be more security people at the complex than visitors even from the immediate area. If they charge even a dollar it will be a ghost town. If its free I can only imagine the crowd that goes in there to escape the heat.

You might be the only person to attempt to walk across the bridge but I'll put the odds at 100/1. Please inform me if you attempt it. A pic fron the middle of the bridge would be appreciated.

Why not build two racetracks within five miles of each other Philly is in the top fifteen cities visited in the U.S. Build it as close to Parx as you can according to your logic. We need to spend more taxpayer dollars on stuff like this right?

How many of these visitors go into Camden? If you can find me a stat that shows 5% I'll fold my cards and declare you the champ.

Originally Posted by biggestal99

1. What if they are there already playing the ponies. Sports bettors are horse bettors.

2. Will Hill is running the show at Monmouth, How do they operate successfully in the UK?

3. Robbed at after betting sports and collecting at Monmouth? oh sure nobody ever hits big playing the ponies there I guess. I have had 5 figure hits at Monmouth, I wasn't concerned about getting robbed. :)

4. Will Hill runs the show. are US wiseguys any different than UK wiseguys.

5. See 4.

Allan


Allan

Originally Posted by Canarsie

Sports bettors are horse bettors? Please give the percentage because if its 25% or higher you should be made commissioner of sports wagering. I will even nominate you.

Where are all the young guys wagering on sports playing the horses? I wear glasses and still don't see them.


How many people go to the track from September to June? All there is to wager on in summer is baseball most gamblers (excluding the pros) take a break from that

Most people who make a nice hit at the track leaves with a check after mandatory takeout. I don't have a clue what a sports gambler would do in regards to cashing but the possibility remains.

Since you make a big deal out of Will Hill how are they doing in the NJ poker market? Lets also throw Betfair into that equation.

A wiseguy or his employee from any country isn't going to stand for waiting at a track to wager on events. Lines can fluctuate quickly and most just want to hit the middle. Sometimes even sixty seconds can dissuade one from making a bet because the line jumped that fast. You need to watch or rewatch

Sports Betting: Billy Walters

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6FAUQ6SFKM

Originally Posted by bks

I think this analysis is pretty flawed, mostly because you;re underestimating the great draw of sports betting and the population density in and around NJ.

You have somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 million people within 2 hrs drive of AC who gamble on sports in some fashion. For every 1% of them come to AC or a sports betting parlor each year and stay for just a single evening, that's tens of millions of dollars in taxable non-gambling revenues right off the bat (rooms, meals, shows, etc).

Second, having a bookie need not be an exclusive relationship. As with marijuana, there is a huge conformist segment of the population that will only indulge in sports betting in a regular fashion if it is given the stamp of legitimacy. They'd welcome a good reason to come to AC for a night in the fall/winter.

Casual-to-serious bettors from the east coast plan trips to Vegas for the Super Bowl and for the NCAA tournament every year because of legalized sports betting. Give that to NJ Casinos, and you are talking about full hotels for three or four extra weekends during the winter/spring, not to mention the added occupancy from Thanksgiving, the NFL playoffs, bowl season, etc.

With sports betting spicing up the offerings, I imagine the Breeders Cup weekend will also be packed, as will the Derby and other Triple Crown Saturdays.

As for the "average" football weekend in the fall, there are plenty of people within a 30-minute radius who will come to the casino/racetrack instead of a sports bar, simply to watch every out of town game for free without pressure to eat/drink. While they're there, they'll bet a little.

In 2012, $3.45 billion was legally wagered in Nevada’s sports books. If NJ does 25% of that, you're talking about more than $1B in add'l renevue for the state once peripherals are added in. That's a very big deal.

Originally Posted by Redboard

I don’t know why you think that casinos must be built in mister Rodgers neighborhoods to be successful. Many people said the same thing when the idea first surfaced of putting casinos in Atlantic City back in the 70s – that it would never work in such a bad neighborhood - by end of the 1980s it was the most popular tourist destination in the United States and a cash cow for the garden state.
The two casinos in/near Philadelphia - Chester, PA(Harrah’s), and in a Philadelphia neighborhood call Fishtown (Sugarhouse Casino), are in two crime-ridden areas and yet they are printing money ; the mayor of Philadelphia, wants to build another one. I’m not a businessman, but I do understand the principle of “location, location, location.” It wasn’t that long ago that if someone wanted to legally play a game of poker or blackjack with other people, one had to travel a long way to do that. No so today and the closer a casino is to those “customers” , the better IMO.
As far as the $82 million investment in the 76ers facility, we don’t know if it’s a disgrace yet, do we? It’s a gamble that could pay off- you or I have no way of knowing at this time. It’s certainly a better gamble than another casino in AC, if I were an odds maker.


As far as walking across the Ben Franklin Bridge, I have done that many times, most recently with a hiking group I belong to called “Hiking Around Philly Meetup” on 6/22/14. That’s me in the orange shirt and white hat.

http://www.meetup.com/HikingAroundPh...bumId=22738732

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

There's NOT a single soul who wouldn't drive 15 mins on a Saturday to bet the entire NFL card and bet some college action while they are there.

Originally Posted by mgoldie1

Allan, I can't imagine what other language he could use in a conditional veto. I don't think the state can state any violations, fines, etc. for anything "shady." They can't add language that keeps "non authorized" entities from being involved at the tracks. I don't think they can state anything about monies allocated to a GA fund.

In my opinion, I think it's an all or nothing for Christie. My gut feeling is he vetoes it with the fear of getting involved with more lawsuits and costing taxpayers more money (the lawsuits previously cost over $3 million). I'm sure he'll state something in his eloquent way about "more studies need to be done" or "we had our chance, but the supreme court denied hearing it", or something basic like "it's not in the state's best interest with no state regulation."

I sure hope I'm wrong, though.

Originally Posted by Canarsie

You like doing this sort of stuff why don't you start a poll and ask. It would be interesting to see how the responses were with or without racing on the table.

My hunch is without racing the number would be at least 80% of the gamblers not going. Did you ever go to an OTB and see the crowd? I certainly wouldn't want to go there to enjoy some games. A decent sports bar is much preferred for the atmosphere and food.

Originally Posted by Robert Goren

Legalized sports betting is another nail in the coffin for NJ horse racing and horse racing in general if it spreads to others states which we know it will. It will draw more bettors away from the sport.
The question remains what happens if the sports leagues reverse course and stop opposing sports betting and start demanding a cut? You have to believe with the court rulings that national fantasy sports leagues have pay a cut to the NFL, MLB, etc , they would be entitled to their cut. The only question is how much would they want. Maybe that is why the Clippers are worth 2 billion dollars.

Originally Posted by thespaah

Nah..People are making these bets right now in the black market. Legalizing it just allows the state to regulate and tax it.
The existence of legalized sports betting would not effect handle on horse racing at all.

Originally Posted by Redboard

I don’t know why you think that casinos must be built in mister Rodgers neighborhoods to be successful. Many people said the same thing when the idea first surfaced of putting casinos in Atlantic City back in the 70s – that it would never work in such a bad neighborhood - by end of the 1980s it was the most popular tourist destination in the United States and a cash cow for the garden state.
The two casinos in/near Philadelphia - Chester, PA(Harrah’s), and in a Philadelphia neighborhood call Fishtown (Sugarhouse Casino), are in two crime-ridden areas and yet they are printing money ; the mayor of Philadelphia, wants to build another one. I’m not a businessman, but I do understand the principle of “location, location, location.” It wasn’t that long ago that if someone wanted to legally play a game of poker or blackjack with other people, one had to travel a long way to do that. No so today and the closer a casino is to those “customers” , the better IMO.
As far as the $82 million investment in the 76ers facility, we don’t know if it’s a disgrace yet, do we? It’s a gamble that could pay off- you or I have no way of knowing at this time. It’s certainly a better gamble than another casino in AC, if I were an odds maker.


As far as walking across the Ben Franklin Bridge, I have done that many times, most recently with a hiking group I belong to called “Hiking Around Philly Meetup” on 6/22/14. That’s me in the orange shirt and white hat.

http://www.meetup.com/HikingAroundPh...bumId=22738732

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I can't agree with this. The sports-betting handle would EXPLODE if this activity were to be finally legalized...and this avalanche of extra money has to come from somewhere. An already sick industry like horse racing is bound to suffer further when matched against a potent gambling competitor such as sports betting.

If horse racing has already been decimated by "unbeatable" games like the lottery or the casino games...then what chance does it have when it goes up against a BEATABLE game like sports betting?

Originally Posted by thespaah

Well we agree to disagree. I do not believe there would be many new sport bettors created at the expense of horse racing. Those betting illegally would simply transfer their business to the legal books.

Originally Posted by Stillriledup

If a person is "jonesing" for sports betting and NJ gets it legalized, people will drive 15 mins to bet the NFL card or the College FB card or march madness, there's no way they wouldn't.

Originally Posted by bks

Here's a good site that collects articles about the subject, updated daily:

http://www.pechanga.net/category/iss...sports-betting

Originally Posted by thaskalos

I have no problem betting with illegal bookies...but I know many people who do.

Originally Posted by biggestal99

Well I am pretty sure that once the sports wagering laws are off the books jersey can't be sued by the leagues or the united states after all jersey was basically given the green light to contour its sports betting laws any which way they want to by the court.

That leaves suing the casinos and race tracks, not sure how they get jersey to revoke their repeal of its own sports betting laws or get the feds involved, the court clearly stated that jersey could deregulate and get out of the picture. And its not in violation of federal law.

Allan

Originally Posted by horses4courses

If you had a choice to bet legally, or otherwise, which would you choose?

Originally Posted by SandyW

Sports betting in New Jersey still is a big long shot.
William Hill has a Nevada Gaming License and I don't think that Nevada will be sitting still if New Jersey starts up sports betting.
New Jersey can pass all the bills and laws it wants to, but the fact still remains that Sports Wagering in New Jersey will still be illegal in the eyes of the Feds and they will step in and stop it on day one.

Originally Posted by bks

But everything hangs on the argument they make in support of this claim.

The likeliest argument will be that the State of NJ is still involved in the regulation of sports betting, despite its demurral and despite its rescinding of its own law. This is because the casinos and racetracks are obviously regulated by the state. Since they are the ones that will be operating (or at least hosting) the new sports betting parlors, the feds and leagues may argue that this amounts to NJ regulating sports betting.

The devil is in the details, though, and I agree that power considerations will determine the outcome. It's just that there may be more factors involved than anyone can clearly foresee. "Picking on" the gambling shops while marijuana dispensaries go untroubled may not be something the feds want to have to justify.

For instance, Colorado and Washington have Democratic governors. NJ has a Republican. Does a Democratic administration want to be seen as licking on the republican state?