Gun Runner vs. Songbird
 

I'm interested to see what people think. The question isn't what horse you'd like to own, or which horse has a better record. Who is the better horse right now?

Why Gun Runner? Seems an odd choice. Stellar Wind I'd understand. Or Arrogate.

I wouldn't run Songbird against males (but neither would I run Stellar Wind against them), so that tells you my answer, but why him? Is she ahead of him in the poll or something?

I am a huge songbird fan, but given her last two races I do not think she could beat gun runner. Maybe she will continue to move forward?

Because there wouldn't be much point of a poll between Arrogate and anyone else?

Not sure why it's odd. Like Castaway said, a poll with Arrogate would be unanimous.

I've been reading A LOT of irrational things in regards to Songbird after this weekend and I'm curious about how people feel she stacks up against who I believe in the 2nd best dirt horse right now, Gun Runner.

I'm seeing her getting beat up pretty badly, so I'm surprised you didn't put her up against Zippy Chippy.

I don't know what's going on with her. She's not working the bullets this year, or getting the breezing designations she was prior, but all the articles say Mike thinks she's working better than ever, just that she's gotten really smart and relaxes and does just what he asks.

Has she lost a step, or has she gotten lazy and doing whatever she just needs to do? I wondered if she could step up against the likes of Beholder and she did. Is she now running up or down based on her competition? Has she made it a game? I've no idea. I expect more than she showed in the past two. Maybe it's rust. If she's still rusty after this one, then the rust isn't ever getting knocked off. The next race will tell us the answer.

Funny, I'm seeing the complete opposite. I'm seeing her being discussed as an all time great and top 5 fillies of all time.

I think she's lost a step this year, which is understood. But I also think her record (especially when you look at who she beat last year) is a bit misleading in regards to her place in history. She ran lights out in the Breeders Cup last year, no doubt about it. Outside of that she beat a lot of fillies who are okay, but not very good.

She's a terrific filly, who has been able to take her game on the road many times, which is very admirable. And the fact she wants to win, as evidenced by her record makes her special. But there's more to a record when you start talking all time.

I think it's fair that to say she's a historic female. Don't know until the fat lady sings where she stacks up against the others, but always hated the comparison to Ruffian. No filly has come close to doing what Ruffian did.

But 9 G1 wins and winning 13 of 14 isn't easy regardless of competition. If it was, we'd have a lot more to do it because the competition is always light in one division or another every year. The competition for Arrogate isn't all that either. For him, it's how he's winning, not who he beat.

I think we should look into grading races after they've been run. Because you can't tell me some of her grade 1 wins were grade 1 fields. Thats where critical analysis comes in, which unfortunately many just aren't interested in.

In the past 25 years I have Heavenly Prize, Inside Information, Silverbulletday, Rags to Riches (short career but beating Curlin sticks out), Rachel Alexandra, Azeri, Zenyatta, Royal Delta and Beholder as being better than her and I probably missed a few. I know we're talking opinions here but to me, that doesn't make her all time.

I can't believe I forgot Serena's Song. :bang:

Speaking of critical assessments, you seem to be more generous to some of them than Songbird. All good fillies, but Heavely Prize as I recall rarely if ever won outside of NY, Rags to Riches got a set up (Ill always wonder how much Gomez was paid to use Hard Spun to pin Curlin in until Rags got the jump on him), and she list to tomato cans too, I don't remember who the first three really beat except Inside Info beating HP over a sloppy track. Also don't recall who Azeri really beat. Zenyatta, props, but she was an enigma and aided by running on synths, Royal Delta was spanked by HdG (who you don't name) a whole lot worse than Songbird ran against Beholder if you want to look at 2 very similar meetings. So the only one I'm giving you with little criticism is Rachel, but even her detractors ask what really good horses she beat (I personally don't downgrade her for that).

She's winning, and that Delaware race isn't her best distance.

But a decent colt like Cupid or Gun Runner would beat her easily.

Oh I see, since you can't recall who they beat, they must not have beaten better. Here's a thought, do a little bit of research and come on back when you're ready to have an actual opinion and not just "I disagree with you because it's you."

Like I said, people aren't really interested in critical assessments.

I looked up Heavenly Orize to jog my memory. She did win once away from NY when she won at Oaklawn.

But how down would we be if Songbird just lost an ungraded stake to Swift and Classy by 2 1/2 lengths? She lost to Phone Chatter, Sardula, Penny's Reshoot (twice), Twist Afkeet, One Dreamer, Halo America, and more. Not exactly all-timers.

Just doing that critical assessing thing.

You can't go long without ass coming out.