THE MODERN DAY MASSACRE AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT

[Jay Trotter]

Out of respect for the Connecticut school shooting, its victims, families, citizens and all affected by the tragedy, I'm creating a seperate thread to discuss these types of events and the issues that surround them -- gun control, the 2nd ammendment, mental illness, public safety, etc. -- not wishing to mix the discussion with the many heartfelt expressions of sympathy and grief I believe the original thread (27 Dead in Conn School shooting) was meant to convey.

[PaceAdvantage]

This thread beat you to the punch, no?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99824

[Jay Trotter]

... More people die of heart disease in a day in the U.S. than die of terrorist attacks. TSA is a waste of money. Gun control is not the answer. The world is a dangerous place and there will always be people who try to kill other people. A better solution is learning and practicing "Situational Awareness". Had the mother of the Newtown Shooter and the School been more aware this tragedy might have been prevented or made less awful.

So, the TSA is a waste of money but if the school had been more aware things may have been different? That's absurd.

Before, I say anything else I would express my deepest sympathies to all touched by this senseless act. There are no words. There should probably be two seperate threads -- one completely non-political to express our feelings and compassion for the victims and community; and one to discuss this and similar events and how to address them.

I'll leave it at that and wait for a "political" thread to comment further.

What is so absurd about it?

TSA detains 12 year old girls in wheel chairs. Now that's absurd.

Everyone can practice situational awareness. Nothing absurd about that concept.

Guns and mental illness do not mix well. This is also not an absurd notion.My point is that having the TSA is better than having no protection at all. Sure, we all might take exception to many of the things they do and the typical government style of managing what they do. (your example of the girl in the wheel chair a good one)

But then to go on and imply that the school could have been more aware when not even wanting the TSA is what I'm referring to as "absurd". Sure, everyone needs to practice "situational awareness". That would be similar to defensive driving. If you're aware of your surroundings and the possible dangers that lurk around every curve your more apt to protect yourself when something goes wrong.

The TSA needs to do better and I guess in today's world the schools, theaters, stadiums, etc. all need to do better as well. :ThmbUp:

[Jay Trotter]

This thread beat you to the punch, no?

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99824No, because I'm not addressing "gun control" itself. I'm talking about the whole dynamic of these tragic events.

Like I mentioned, mental illness, the 2nd ammendment, gun control, etc. I think this is a much bigger discussion than simple gun control itself. :ThmbUp:

[PaceAdvantage]

Do you think they were asking the same question back in 1927? Bath School Massacre? 45 dead, 58 injured. Three bombs...

Or how about in 1966? University of Texas Clock Tower sniper shootings?

There is nothing "modern" about massacres.

Some people have been crazy since the beginning of time.

[Tom]

We are all aware, I assume, of how the Texas Tower shootings were minimized before the shooter could pick off more people?

The Texans on the ground returned fire and pinned him down.

[Robert Fischer]

most of these killing spree folks don't seem to be to doing to well with the opposite sex

[mostpost]

most of these killing spree folks don't seem to be to doing to well with the opposite sex
They are not doing well with the opposite sex because they are strange. They're not strange because they are doing poorly with the opposite sex. Strange behavior (A) causes them not to have girlfriends (B). B does not cause A.

[nijinski]

The children are born with the disability and it's up to the parents to take care of them .
I know a Dad who drives 60 miles east of his home and then 90 miles back to his job to bring his son with autism to a school that deals exclusively with these children . He does this three days a week and is very concerned that his son has all the resources out there available to help him .

A wealthy family like Adam Lanzas' needed to be on top of his disabilties and coping problems .put the damn divorce BS aside and attend to their sons needs .

A very strict gun registratration law needs to be implemented . The news regarding how much ammunition was in that house is very disappointing .
It's no solace to anyone . It would have been just too bad that she couldn't blast Fowl out of the sky . She needed to take care of a young man whose illness was escalating . It will all boil down to the person or persons responsible for the mass murderer and for the government to spend the money to keep records and registrations set to keep the public safe as well
as funding for those with mental disabilities .

[elysiantraveller]

A very strict gun registratration law needs to be implemented . The news regarding how much ammunition was in that house is very disappointing .

How would the first sentence have prevented this? Also the second sentence about ammunition I don't understand? What have you heard that was diisappointing?

[Robert Fischer]

They are not doing well with the opposite sex because they are strange. They're not strange because they are doing poorly with the opposite sex. Strange behavior (A) causes them not to have girlfriends (B). B does not cause A.

agreed, but it can be harder to separate than it seems

not just doing poorly with the opposite sex, but also in social situations, and peer status

would some of these people be as inclined to hate society and go-out in a suicidal murder spree, if they got something positive out of society ?

just thinking out loud, i know it's kind of unconventional

[Robert Goren]

most of these killing spree folks don't seem to be to doing to well with the opposite sex This is a touchy subject to say the least. What about gay people?

[Robert Goren]

"situational awareness" is another thing that sounds good on paper, but has problems in practice. What is strange behavior? and who do you report it to? One thing is for sure, we will need a lot more government employees to investigate all the reports of strange behavior.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...we will need a lot more government employees to investigate all the reports of strange behavior.

As effective as they tend to be, we'll need an entire agency just to deal with the off-topic forum.

[highnote]

"situational awareness" is another thing that sounds good on paper, but has problems in practice. What is strange behavior? and who do you report it to? One thing is for sure, we will need a lot more government employees to investigate all the reports of strange behavior.


I don't know if there are any hard and fast rules on how to practice situational awareness. I'm not even sure this would have prevented any of last week's shooting, but it is as good of a place as any to start.

People need to be on the lookout for patterns of behavior that can sometimes be a red flag for something dangerous.

Maybe situational awareness would not have helped, but it probably couldn't have hurt.

[johnhannibalsmith]

They are not doing well with the opposite sex because they are strange. They're not strange because they are doing poorly with the opposite sex. Strange behavior (A) causes them not to have girlfriends (B). B does not cause A.

Speaking of weird logic, the scenario posed wasn't whether or not "being strange" is a condition of problems with girls or vice versa as near as I can tell. The statement seemed to imply that sexual frustration causes violence in some men. I don't think that is such a fantastically wild conclusion. I'm not sure where you dreamed up this strange people don't get laid interpretation.

[Dave Schwartz]

When the Brady Bill was being debated, I recall an interesting statistic that I heard at the time.

As I recall, based upon stats from 1989, the US led the world in handgun homicides with something like 12,000. Second in the world was Japan with 12.

TWELVE!

Now, I never owned a gun until 4-5 years ago, so I was not really "pro-gun." Nevertheless, I was smart enough to know that the very word "homicide" indicates that it is a crime. Therefore, it has never been the gun that was the real problem.

The problem is criminals and whackos.

The very theme of this thread: "What to do about it" assumes that there is something to do. What does one do? Outlaw being nuts?


I listened to the FBI profiler on TBV say that this guy was NOT a psychopath or sociopath; that he was just desperate.

My response to that is "Horse puckey." Anyone who shoots ANY random stranger, let alone am innocent child, is whacko somewhere. (Yes, "whacko" is a medical term. It means... oh, hell. I don't care. It SHOULD be a medical term.)

While I have no problem with gun control (in the sense of demanding a mental health certificate of some kind), the idea of disarming the populace is --- get ready for it --- UN-AMERICAN! It is part of our constitution and should remain as such.

This would be my opinion.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[Jay Trotter]

Do you think they were asking the same question back in 1927? Bath School Massacre? 45 dead, 58 injured. Three bombs...

Or how about in 1966? University of Texas Clock Tower sniper shootings?

There is nothing "modern" about massacres.

Some people have been crazy since the beginning of time.I realize "massacres" aren't a modern day thing but we're a much more educated and aware society than we ever were. Supposedly, we're a much more civilized society.

In "days of old" slaughter and butchery were a way of life in many societies but I think we can agree that the so called "modern day massacre" as I titled the thread is unique in its nature and I feel worthy of discussion.

Are these events perpetuated by a yearning for "infamy" rather than obscurity? Are these tragedies amplified by the modern news cycle? Does modern society cause people to go over the edge more than they might have in the past? So many questions?

I don't have the answers but I would like to understand. The issue is a lot more fuzzy than any solution would be clear!

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Are these events perpetuated by a yearning for "infamy" rather than obscurity? Are these tragedies amplified by the modern news cycle? Does modern society cause people to go over the edge more than they might have in the past? So many questions?

...

I've been pretty robust with my opinion of the effect that sensationalizing these events and making celebrities out of the accused has on others. When I open my news page and the headline reads, "Check Out Accused Theater Gunman's New Hairdo" - it actually pisses me off that nobody objects to this, yet hollar about crazy people and guns and whatever else. It made me mad when people gave John Wayne Gacy and his dopey clown pictures and stupid book and, basically, his humongous ego, the attention that none of it deserved.

I'm not any psychologist, sociologist, behaviorist, or anything else worth of listening to. But, since you asked and all we do here is spout off about things, I'll play along.

When I look at who these people are, I don't think it's enough to just blame "mental illness" - as though any person that is "mentally ill" or just plain nuts, is a potential threat and we need to be on high alert. There is some commonality, I think, between a lot of these people. Most seem to be anything but underpriveledged. Most seem to be intelligent. Most seem to be duplicitous, able to function within society on most other days. Most would seem to have any number of outs, inherent advantages towards leading what we would consider a "normal, successful" life.

For whatever reason, most of these people, particular the young, just-post-teen men, seem to fail once inducted into the "real world". It's as though they lose all control over their world, perhaps because of their relative intelligence and comfortable life through childhood and adolescence. The reality of life isn't like the movies made it out to be and personal failure is an abrupt shock. Most of these events all reek of a helpless, weak man that has lost total control and is desperately finding the ONE way in which they can regain control and be strong again, assertively successful over a world in which they have given up even trying to succeed in. It's not enough to just kill yourself due to despair, there is that element of showing the world, and knowing that there is a willing audience to your statement, that you are ultimately in control of not only the world, but of your own destiny. Kaboom.

Does modern society cause more people to go over the edge? Well, modern society has more people, so by default you would assume that there would be more going over the edge. I do, to some small degree, when I look at some of the most recent culprits, wonder if young people are being increasingly maladjusted to the harsh realities of adult life. Rejection, failure, loss, deceit, just plain cruelty - these are things that will happen in life - if you aren't expecting them and in fact are expecting the precise opposite from life, I can imagine reality can be a bitch for some young people that actually believe that life is like what they have been prepared for in sterile suburban illusions. I think the mind is pretty fragile and frankly, it requires a little bit of conditioning when minds can still be conditioned most effectively. I don't think that shielding young people from reality is always the ideal strategy and big brain, weak mind types in particular seem to come unraveled when pressured.

Something like that. Good luck fixing it.

[nijinski]

How would the first sentence have prevented this? Also the second sentence about ammunition I don't understand? What have you heard that was diisappointing?

That this household was legally allowed to have this much ammunition .
Should you not have to report that this residence has someone living
there , possibly has a destructive nature ? I don't know the registration process , but it seems it should be of importance .

[elysiantraveller]

That this household was legally allowed to have this much ammunition .
Should you not have to report that this residence has someone living
there , possibly has a destructive nature ? I don't know the registration process , but it seems it should be of importance .

I don't know what the amount of ammo has to do with anything. Most people buy in bulk which is 100-1000 ct. depending on the size.

As for the registration process no that isn't asked. Its really only a criminal background check. More questions could be asked but most people would simply lie. There really isn't a easy way to do it unless you are willing to violate someone's right to privacy.

[PaceAdvantage]

I've been pretty robust with my opinion of the effect that sensationalizing these events and making celebrities out of the accused has on others. When I open my news page and the headline reads, "Check Out Accused Theater Gunman's New Hairdo" - it actually pisses me off that nobody objects to this, yet hollar about crazy people and guns and whatever else. It made me mad when people gave John Wayne Gacy and his dopey clown pictures and stupid book and, basically, his humongous ego, the attention that none of it deserved.

I'm not any psychologist, sociologist, behaviorist, or anything else worth of listening to. But, since you asked and all we do here is spout off about things, I'll play along.

When I look at who these people are, I don't think it's enough to just blame "mental illness" - as though any person that is "mentally ill" or just plain nuts, is a potential threat and we need to be on high alert. There is some commonality, I think, between a lot of these people. Most seem to be anything but underpriveledged. Most seem to be intelligent. Most seem to be duplicitous, able to function within society on most other days. Most would seem to have any number of outs, inherent advantages towards leading what we would consider a "normal, successful" life.

For whatever reason, most of these people, particular the young, just-post-teen men, seem to fail once inducted into the "real world". It's as though they lose all control over their world, perhaps because of their relative intelligence and comfortable life through childhood and adolescence. The reality of life isn't like the movies made it out to be and personal failure is an abrupt shock. Most of these events all reek of a helpless, weak man that has lost total control and is desperately finding the ONE way in which they can regain control and be strong again, assertively successful over a world in which they have given up even trying to succeed in. It's not enough to just kill yourself due to despair, there is that element of showing the world, and knowing that there is a willing audience to your statement, that you are ultimately in control of not only the world, but of your own destiny. Kaboom.

Does modern society cause more people to go over the edge? Well, modern society has more people, so by default you would assume that there would be more going over the edge. I do, to some small degree, when I look at some of the most recent culprits, wonder if young people are being increasingly maladjusted to the harsh realities of adult life. Rejection, failure, loss, deceit, just plain cruelty - these are things that will happen in life - if you aren't expecting them and in fact are expecting the precise opposite from life, I can imagine reality can be a bitch for some young people that actually believe that life is like what they have been prepared for in sterile suburban illusions. I think the mind is pretty fragile and frankly, it requires a little bit of conditioning when minds can still be conditioned most effectively. I don't think that shielding young people from reality is always the ideal strategy and big brain, weak mind types in particular seem to come unraveled when pressured.

Something like that. Good luck fixing it.Damn man... I hate to kiss ass, but you are good... :lol:

[Dave Schwartz]

I don't know what the amount of ammo has to do with anything. Most people buy in bulk which is 100-1000 ct. depending on the size.

I buy it 1,000 at a time. Much less expensive that way.

[nijinski]

I don't know what the amount of ammo has to do with anything. Most people buy in bulk which is 100-1000 ct. depending on the size.

As for the registration process no that isn't asked. Its really only a criminal background check. More questions could be asked but most people would simply lie. There really isn't a easy way to do it unless you are willing to violate someone's right to privacy.

Don't we already do this to those who carry guns in law enforcement ?

[Grits]

John Hannibal, you know that I respect you and I know you're just laying it out. But I think what you truly know and understand about mental illness, or someone with a documented history of mental illness/brain disorder would not remotely begin to span the head of a pin. I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't.

I could debate much of what you've stated, but I'm too tired. I've been with my dad today. His Alzheimers is getting much worse.

Today, we were sitting in the living room, just he and I. My mom had gone to run errands.

ONE OF OUR CONVERSATIONS:

Dad: "G, how many bananas you think your car will hold?"

Grits: "Oh, I don't know, dad. Probably three, maybe four bunches, six to a bunch. You know, same as your car."

Dad: "I figured that was about all."


Right out of the blue, this one came, John Hannibal. I didn't so much as miss a beat. I'm damn good with crazies. I'll talk about anything "my now crazy daddy" wants to talk about. I'm his girl. I'll agree with him, too. :lol:

[nijinski]

John Hannibal, you know that I respect you and I know you're just laying it out. But I think what you truly know and understand about mental illness, or someone with a documented history of mental illness/brain disorder would not remotely begin to span the head of a pin. I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't.

I could debate much of what you've stated, but I'm too tired. I've been with my dad today. His Alzheimers is getting much worse.

Today, we were sitting in the living room, just he and I. My mom had gone to run errands.

ONE OF OUR CONVERSATIONS:

Dad: "G, how many bananas you think your car will hold?"

Grits: "Oh, I don't know, dad. Probably three, maybe four bunches, six to a bunch. You know, same as your car."

Dad: "I figured that was about all."


Right out of the blue, this one came, John Hannibal. I didn't so much as miss a beat. I'm damn good with crazies. I'll talk about anything "my now crazy daddy" wants to talk about. I'm his girl. I'll agree with him, too. :lol:

Grits ,
Sending good blessings your way . Alzheimers is not easy on family members and devasting for the patient .
It sounds like you are all there with him surrounding him with the support and love he needs .

[Grits]

Grits ,
Sending good blessings your way . Alzheimers is not easy on family members and devasting for the patient .
It sounds like you are all there with him surrounding him with the support and love he needs .

Thank you, Nj. Tough days, but some sweet moments, and some hilarious conversations.

He still asks me, "what time did mama leave (his mama)?"

I tell him, "oh dad, she didn't come by today."

She's been dead for 40 years. But I don't wanna tell him, he might get upset. :lol:

(Enough hilarity, I'm highjacking the thread. Sorry guys.)

[delayjf]

Do you think they were asking the same question back in 1927? Bath School Massacre? 45 dead, 58 injured. Three bombs...
Not a shot fired at Oklahoma City - just a truck fuel of fertilizer and diesel fuel.

[PaceAdvantage]

John Hannibal, you know that I respect you and I know you're just laying it out. But I think what you truly know and understand about mental illness, or someone with a documented history of mental illness/brain disorder would not remotely begin to span the head of a pin. I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't.

I could debate much of what you've stated, but I'm too tired. I've been with my dad today. His Alzheimers is getting much worse.Surely you know there is a huge difference between Alzheimers and a mental illness that compels someone to go kill 20 elementary children.

I'm not even sure why you are injecting this into this thread. Nobody is talking about Alzheimers disease. What we are talking about are people who require medication, therapy, and whatnot to avoid KILLING PEOPLE. To avoid VIOLENCE. TO AVOID KILLING 20 CHILDREN!!

This has nothing to do with Alzheimers. Nothing whatsoever.

How can you sit there and say what JHS wrote can't begin to SPAN THE HEAD OF A PIN REGARDING MENTAL ILLNESS? COMPARED TO WHO? COMPARED TO WHAT?

You know I like you Grits, but seriously...sometimes you need to back off and realize you aren't the only one who knows a little something about something...

[nijinski]

I think Grits was just mentioning that she had to go back to tending to her Dad and not comparing the illness.
However , the drug that used to be widely used to calm Alzheimers with rage was Haldol .
They don't partake in massacre type behavior , but an Alzheimers patient with a moment of rage can really injure a nurse and it has happened .
I'll let it be and get back to the subject.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think Grits was just mentioning that she had to go back to tending to her Dad and not comparing the illness.That's all well and good, but you and I both know exactly what Grits was doing.

She was not only nullifying everything JHS had to say in his post by outright dismissing him, but she was also "qualifying" her expertise in mental illness by referencing her father who has Alzheimers.

Now, again, I like Grits. I know Grits a bit. I've met her a number of times at Saratoga meet-ups. But I'm also a New Yorker who isn't going to let something go just because I happen to like the person who is posting it...

[Robert Goren]

Not a shot fired at Oklahoma City - just a truck fuel of fertilizer and diesel fuel.And a couple of guys who knew a lot about explosives. This stunt has not worked since because the people who tried did not know what they were doing. Learning to shoot a gun is much easier than learning to make a large bomb.

[Grits]

Ah, damn. I told you I was tired. Alzheimers doesn't have a thing to do with this, I'm just laughing at my day, Mike. Damn, can't you get a joke?

You want me to start listing the types of mental illness that can be included in this scenario? Ones that can be caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, ones that are caused by the brain's complex wiring gone awry, ones that can be diagnosed during one's youth, not by some drug induced burnout as a junkie.

Schizophrenia, BiPolar Disorder, Multiple Personality Disorder, Post Traumatic Stress, Manic Depression, Autism and Aspergers, yes, both can be violent.

Much that has to do with mental illness is delusional. This creates grandiose thoughts and behaviors. This much, yes, these individuals have in common.

Wow, let me go to bed. C'ya.

Surely you know there is a huge difference between Alzheimers and a mental illness that compels someone to go kill 20 elementary children.

I'm not even sure why you are injecting this into this thread. Nobody is talking about Alzheimers disease. What we are talking about are people who require medication, therapy, and whatnot to avoid KILLING PEOPLE. To avoid VIOLENCE. TO AVOID KILLING 20 CHILDREN!!

This has nothing to do with Alzheimers. Nothing whatsoever.

How can you sit there and say what JHS wrote can't begin to SPAN THE HEAD OF A PIN REGARDING MENTAL ILLNESS? COMPARED TO WHO? COMPARED TO WHAT?

You know I like you Grits, but seriously...sometimes you need to back off and realize you aren't the only one who knows a little something about something...

[johnhannibalsmith]

John Hannibal, you know that I respect you and I know you're just laying it out. But I think what you truly know and understand about mental illness, or someone with a documented history of mental illness/brain disorder would not remotely begin to span the head of a pin. I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't.

I could debate much of what you've stated, but I'm too tired. I've been with my dad today. His Alzheimers is getting much worse.

Today, we were sitting in the living room, just he and I. My mom had gone to run errands.

ONE OF OUR CONVERSATIONS:

Dad: "G, how many bananas you think your car will hold?"

Grits: "Oh, I don't know, dad. Probably three, maybe four bunches, six to a bunch. You know, same as your car."

Dad: "I figured that was about all."


Right out of the blue, this one came, John Hannibal. I didn't so much as miss a beat. I'm damn good with crazies. I'll talk about anything "my now crazy daddy" wants to talk about. I'm his girl. I'll agree with him, too. :lol:

Hey, hey, hey... I prefaced it by saying I didn't know jack shit about anything and that's why I'm posting about this stuff on a horse racing forum instead of hosting a show on CNN... :lol:

But for what it's worth, I take care of a 93-year-old, and up until last year, her husband, six days a week, ten hours a day, and have for the last four years. I can relate very, very (very, very) well to your conversation with Dad.... :lol:

I spent half the day Friday learning what a loopinflooper or some such thing was. She didn't know what a bologna sandwich was at lunchtime, but was singing some tune from college days nearly a century ago about the loopinflooper at Yale... Yeah, I feel for you... and its also why I seem to smoke more cigarettes while everyone else is cutting down or quitting... :lol:

[Grits]

BULLSHIT, Mike. You didn't get it. I'm referencing my father's Alzheimers to make someone believe I know something about mental illness. Yeah, right. Your NYer instinct just blew itself out the door.

Nj's dead on the money, I was laughing at my dad. That's all. Sorry.

You have a fine night.


That's all well and good, but you and I both know exactly what Grits was doing.

She was not only nullifying everything JHS had to say in his post by outright dismissing him, but she was also "qualifying" her expertise in mental illness by referencing her father who has Alzheimers.

Now, again, I like Grits. I know Grits a bit. I've met her a number of times at Saratoga meet-ups. But I'm also a New Yorker who isn't going to let something go just because I happen to like the person who is posting it...

[PaceAdvantage]

BULLSHIT, Mike. You didn't get it. I'm referencing my father's Alzheimers to make someone believe I know something about mental illness. Yeah, right. Your NYer instinct just blew itself out the door.

Nj's dead on the money, I was laughing at my dad. That's all. Sorry.

You have a fine night.Well it certainly didn't come across that way to this observer. Maybe you should read what you wrote again.

[Grits]

I love your sense of humor, I swear I do. Last week dad made a sandwich. Get this. Two slices of white bread and a chocolate chip cookie in the middle. Hell, he couldn't find bologna in the frig if he tried. He loves sweets nowadays. You take care, John Hannibal. :lol:

I've overextended my welcome. C'ya. ;)

Hey, hey, hey... I prefaced it by saying I didn't know jack shit about anything and that's why I'm posting about this stuff on a horse racing forum instead of hosting a show on CNN... :lol:

But for what it's worth, I take care of a 93-year-old, and up until last year, her husband, six days a week, ten hours a day, and have for the last four years. I can relate very, very (very, very) well to your conversation with Dad.... :lol:

I spent half the day Friday learning what a loopinflooper or some such thing was. She didn't know what a bologna sandwich was at lunchtime, but was singing some tune from college days nearly a century ago about the loopinflooper at Yale... Yeah, I feel for you... and its also why I seem to smoke more cigarettes while everyone else is cutting down or quitting... :lol:

[Grits]

Well it certainly didn't come across that way to this observer. Maybe you should read what you wrote again.

NO. I'm not reading it again. You work on your sense of humor instead of your negative NY instincts.

[PaceAdvantage]

NO. I'm not reading it again. You work on your sense of humor instead of your negative NY instincts.Sense of humor? Where was your sense of humor when you wrote the following:

John Hannibal, you know that I respect you and I know you're just laying it out. But I think what you truly know and understand about mental illness, or someone with a documented history of mental illness/brain disorder would not remotely begin to span the head of a pin. I'm sorry, but it just wouldn't.I don't think even you would begin to try and justify that statement as being nothing but funny.

[Dave Schwartz]

Not a shot fired at Oklahoma City - just a truck fuel of fertilizer and diesel fuel.

Yes, but just the once.

The killer doesn't get a second shot. Not in OK.

[sammy the sage]

We've created a narcissistic society...People think life is ALL about them...

We've created people who feel that THEIR pain is the center of the universe. Everyone needs to respond to their pain.

Any pain THEY THEMSELVES CAUSE is too them inconsequential.

Throw in constant depictions of violence all around in movies, television, music, and video games...Those same media also preach instant gratification.

But we've REMOVED ALL teaching of morality and ethics from schools for fear it might sound like religion.

Is it really any surprise WE GET people who feel they have been wronged snapping and making others to "pay the price" for their pain?

Now what to do about it...Everybody MUST be HELD responsible for their OWN actions...even if mentally ill...but at a YOUNG age...

Time-outs...a TOTAL joke...there should be immediate consequences...right THEN...

Serious lack of discipline should BE STOPPED...again at an early age....it's 90% about THE upbringing...

By the way....it's getting much worse...and none of what I wrote WILL EVER happen in OUR lifetimes...

It will TAKE a world changing event...poles flipping, super virus/bug, nuclear war...ect...to GET BACK to basics...

pretty damn SIMPLE 'eh :( :bang:

[delayjf]

Second in the world was Japan with 12.

A quick search of firearm (all firearms) deaths in the world

per capita US is not even on the top of the list. Just based on that, I would question the above.

[Robert Goren]

A quick search of firearm (all firearms) deaths in the world

per capita US is not even on the top of the list. Just based on that, I would question the above.How high would we rank if you eliminated political murder and war deaths?

[sammy the sage]

82% of childrens homocides DO NOT involve guns per FBI...

[delayjf]

Yes, but just the once.

The killer doesn't get a second shot. Not in OK.

Not sure I follow, McVey was not capture immediately, he could have struck again. And to tell you the truth, you don't have to be a demolition expect to create those types of bombs - the knowledge is out there, the ingrediants are common.

[Robert Goren]

82% of childrens homocides DO NOT involve guns per FBI...This is not about childern being murdered(7 adults also died), but people being killed. He could have just as easily gone to movie theater. Child abuse is topic that needs to be dealt with too, but that was not what happened here. This was a mass murder who most of most victims just happened to be six year olds.

[Steve R]

[snip]...The very theme of this thread: "What to do about it" assumes that there is something to do. What does one do? Outlaw being nuts?...While I have no problem with gun control (in the sense of demanding a mental health certificate of some kind), the idea of disarming the populace is --- get ready for it --- UN-AMERICAN! It is part of our constitution and should remain as such.[snip]
No, but perhaps trying to reduce the glorification of violence in American society would be a start. I realize it would be tough considering how superficial American values are, but it is an approach.

And please don't throw around the ridiculous buzzword "un-American". Many people just want to regulate access to assault weapons, not disarm the population. And there are plenty of things in your Constitution that are ignored when convenient, like habeas corpus, due process and the unique Congressional authority to initiate wars. There is nothing holier about gun ownership than there is about any other constitutional right, and regulating access to guns is no more un-American than regulating interstate commerce or setting limits on free speech. Besides, the Second Amendment explicitly refers to the necessity of a well-regulated militia, another term conveniently ignored in this debate.

[Tom]

And please don't throw around the ridiculous buzzword "un-American". Many people just want to regulate access to assault weapons, not disarm the population.

How do you do that, Eintstein?
They are already out there.
A bunch of them put out there by Obama.
How do we keep them out of the country?
We can't keep drugs out, or people out.

[sammy the sage]

This is not about childern being murdered(7 adults also died), but people being killed. He could have just as easily gone to movie theater. Child abuse is topic that needs to be dealt with too, but that was not what happened here. This was a mass murder who most of most victims just happened to be six year olds.

Duh....just brilliant... :rolleyes:...he coulda used a bomb...ect....

This thread is ABOUT preventing future homicides...and banning guns WON'T DO THAT now will it....

Child abuse IS one of THE MAIN reasons...mental illness THE other...

Cause and effect...or is THAT too difficult to comprehend. :rolleyes:

[pktruckdriver]

BULLSHIT, Mike. You didn't get it. I'm referencing my father's Alzheimers to make someone believe I know something about mental illness. Yeah, right. Your NYer instinct just blew itself out the door.

Nj's dead on the money, I was laughing at my dad. That's all. Sorry.

You have a fine night.

Grits, I am never wishing upon anyone what you are going thru with your father, the sadness is beyond words, as is the things happening in this country. You will have my prayers, as do all with that affliction.

The right to bears arms is the reason this happened, is it? Maybe, because those guns were gotten from where, a mother who collected them, is this true ?

Having guns in a house woth an unstable kid a good idea, guess not. So is the right to bear the problem here or the judgement of some people to have guns where guns should not be, hard to say, but it seems logical to me, how bout you?

Let me go, now.

Grits, Merry Christmas and God Bless

Patrick

[TJDave]

I don't know what the amount of ammo has to do with anything. Most people buy in bulk which is 100-1000 ct. depending on the size.

As for the registration process no that isn't asked. Its really only a criminal background check. More questions could be asked but most people would simply lie. There really isn't a easy way to do it unless you are willing to violate someone's right to privacy.

Used to be that all serious shooters were reloaders. The average gun owner had box of bullets and a revolver stuck up in a closet gathering dust. Not anymore. It's guns, guns and more guns and enough ammunition to equip a company. WTF?

The idea that most anyone can buy ammunition by the truckload, no questions asked, is absurd...And not just ball...any ammo.

[jdhanover]

I feel the need to chime in just a bit here (normally I stay out of this type of conversation).

My son is autistic and is quite a challenge. I see him and many others like him every day. Those of you who don't have a child with special needs, ought to be very careful in jumping to conclusions as you are not informed. You are not a 'bad' person, just ignorant of how difficult it is to see your child struggle with coping with life.

The vast majority of autistic children (inclusive of many disorders) are genuinely good people. Some do have a tendency to become more violent when they feel overwhelmed. Most would never do what the CT shooter did.

Do these children need help? Absolutely. Do we (as a society) help them? Only to a point. One of the BIGGEST problems IMO is that these kids need school/extra services way past 18 years old. The school systems push these kids to graduation and then it becomes quite a difficult task for any parent to get the child the right help and circumstances that they need.

From what many other parents/professionals have told me, these kids need a lot of extra helps thru their mid-20s. At that point, most mature to where they can handle life with some accommodations. But we largely cut off the services these kids need at 18.

And this problem is worsening...1 in 88 boys are born autistic. Think about how many 20 year-olds with autism there will be in 2032. Scary actually.

As for gun control - I think the idea of getting rid of guns in the USA is unrealistic and unwarranted as most gun owners are responsible for them. But I do think military-style automatic weapons that can fire multiple rounds have no place in the hands of civilians. And the lack of uniformity in state laws/registration is autrocious. Waiting periods/backgrounds checks etc should be standardized across the country.

One last point. I have heard arguments that the parents of kids with disabilities are at fault or that the lack of God is at the heart of this issue. I disagree vehemently. These children do suffer from an illness...just not one that is easily treated nor well understood. There is no 'playbook' for parenting a child with issues. You have no idea how much strain it puts on a family - in and of itself it breaks up many, many marriages (fortunately not my own, but I know how lucky I am on that score). There is limited assistance once they graduate HS but a terrible need for it. Blaming the parents or their religious beliefs is, in my book, akin to sweeping the problem under the rug (btw many of these kids are raised in religious homes and the outcomes are not any different). We attack this lack of research and resources to understanding and treating the illness, the true core of the problem, and things will improve. So much money is spent on developing the next beauty cream, or next junk food, etc....our society should redirect resources to helping this (and other important) issues. Unfortunately, I am sure it will not.

JMO

[Jay Trotter]

I feel the need to chime in just a bit here ...
Very well stated JD! :ThmbUp:

[elysiantraveller]

Used to be that all serious shooters were reloaders. The average gun owner had box of bullets and a revolver stuck up in a closet gathering dust. Not anymore. It's guns, guns and more guns and enough ammunition to equip a company. WTF?

The idea that most anyone can buy ammunition by the truckload, no questions asked, is absurd...And not just ball...any ammo.

It's no absurd it's economics..

The decline in reloading is due to the increased cost of materials. What used to be a great way to save money now is a marginal cost saver at best. This is also the reason why people try to buy in bulk.

I can buy 200 shells at Walmart for $44. At 1 oz of lead each, plus hulls, primers, wads, and powder I can't get near that cost doing it myself.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... Most would never do what the CT shooter did...

I hope this isn't lost in the shuffle between blaming guns, media, and mental illness.

I get worried when people start talking about escalating involuntary committments when people focus on mental illness. Yet, at the same time, I like that there is some focus on mental illness.

I try to leave my own baggage out of posts, except in the most general of places, but maybe naively I find it a little hard to imagine that most people can't relate in some way to the subject. What is the NIMH estimate? Over a quarter of American adults are living with one form or another?

Perhaps mental illness is a prerequisite for this type of horror, but when you think about all of the various forms and sheer number of people affected - and then look at what similarities exist in many of these people that commit atrocities - it seems to me that it is a whole lot more than merely mental illness. There is a psychotic break of some sort, some kind of trauma, caused by something more than simple chemistry, and the underlying illness just lays the framework for that break to manifest itself.

Again, I bring another round of unsolicited opinion in an effort to perhaps clarify an earlier post that wasn't necessarily intended to either reflect this event specifically, nor the culprit, nor his particular disease. Nor was it an exhaustive explanation of my thinking, by design for readibility, but after reading Grits' posts, I knew that I had been perhaps a bit assuming in presenting my opinion without any foundation for context - and that what I was implying was what takes someone from being functional, with or without apparent illness, to that moment when they literally break. Why the people can so differ in terms of illnesses, degree of illness, if even outwardly apparent, and yet, there are some striking similarities in terms of demographics that have nothing to do with illness.

So, if I fall into that category of those that you consider to be out in left field in trying to understand mental illness - I hope that I can try to clarify that my thinking wasn't really related to illness as the problem, but what causes those with illnesses of all types and forms to deviate from the norm of those with illness. And I don't get into being overly personal, and no, I can't relate to your experiences, but my thoughts aren't rooted in complete abstract theory. I'd just assume reiterate that I'm not a professional, but my statements and thoughts also come from experiences.

I wish you the best and appreciate some actual thoughts from someone that lives it every day.

[ArlJim78]

If a disturbed person wants to commit a massacre of children, no laws are going to be able to stop them from getting the necessary weapons. as it stands now everyone knows that while in school our kids are completely at risk. it's national policy, we even put up signs saying there are no firearms allowed in the buildings. how would that work at your home? Would it make you more safe to declare that you are unarmed?

beside trying to identify those who need help and show signs of mental illness or violent tendencies, my thought is that what we can do is to harden the rooms/buildings, and/or put armed public safety officers on site.

50 years ago you could leave the door to your car or home unlocked, now no one would consider doing either and home security is big business. we should place more importance on the security of little kids when they go to school.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...

Again, I bring another round of unsolicited opinion ...

I take that back. It was solicited. It just happens that apparently not too many people want to jump in the fire. That's too bad, even if we all have conflicting perspectives and consider one another full of crap. This is a subject that I think most people can lend something worthwhile to, learn from, educate others, hash out perceptions, misconceptions, and outright deceptions. Basically, I wish more people would answer Jay's questions and more people would rebut those answers.

[jdhanover]

I hope this isn't lost in the shuffle between blaming guns, media, and mental illness.



Perhaps mental illness is a prerequisite for this type of horror, but when you think about all of the various forms and sheer number of people affected - and then look at what similarities exist in many of these people that commit atrocities - it seems to me that it is a whole lot more than merely mental illness. There is a psychotic break of some sort, some kind of trauma, caused by something more than simple chemistry, and the underlying illness just lays the framework for that break to manifest itself.



My 2 cents - its not about blame. Its about addressing true underlying problems.

Mental illness is simply not well understood. Why it happens? Why a few (very few) become so violent and what does trigger it?

Is it more than 'just' mental illness? Surely. I was merely stating that this is a very big problem and needs to be addressed.


As an aside, an interesting viewpoint from Joe Scarborough on nbcnews. I think he is someone that, in this case, needs to be listened to. (I am not normally a big supporter of his far right views but this editorial was extremely insightful)

[johnhannibalsmith]

My 2 cents - its not about blame. Its about addressing true underlying problems.

Mental illness is simply not well understood. Why it happens? Why a few (very few) become so violent and what does trigger it?

Is it more than 'just' mental illness? Surely. I was merely stating that this is a very big problem and needs to be addressed.


As an aside, an interesting viewpoint from Joe Scarborough on nbcnews. I think he is someone that, in this case, needs to be listened to. (I am not normally a big supporter of his far right views but this editorial was extremely insightful)

I think we are actually in near complete harmony for the most part and are just coming from different directions. And, ironically, I actually watched Scarborough's show opening monologue this morning for the first time in a long time.

[jdhanover]

I think we are actually in near complete harmony for the most part and are just coming from different directions.

Agree!

[Robert Fischer]

i'm not a gun person , and maybe the terminology is throwing me off

but do we need "semi-automatic" handguns/pistols ??

that's a genuine question

i am going to go ahead and make big leap here using logic and in spite of my lack of being a gun person, say we DO NOT NEED semi-automatic rifles such as the murder weapon. (bushmaster .223 semi-auto) - Lanza's primary killing weapon.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wWoUzuRVAF4/TeNVrloD7hI/AAAAAAAACJo/2YtOfS0JVIo/s1600/weapons%2B6.jpg



the logic is that if you need those to hunt , you should take lessons because you have no skills, and if you need those to secure your home- you have a major security issue and should contact the police or hire a 24hour guard service. That is, it is not normal.



I know these weapons are a big industry for things like gangs, and some are smuggled into the country, while others are bought legally and then sold on the black market, and are "already out there..", but c'mon MASSACRES like THIS ONE often have LEGAL purchases of these ridiculous weapons.

still open for discussion on the handguns = is a non-automatic handgun/pistol not feasible for defense?

hopefully others agree on the ridiculous rifle...

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
hopefully others agree on the ridiculous rifle...

Well, as I've stated, I'm not a gun guy. I don't want one and don't care terribly what the rest of the world decides on my behalf as far as this one goes.

But for the sake of playing a little devil's avocado...

There are those that will say that the second amendment was not conceived as a way to allow hunters to shoot deer or even for home owners to protect themselves from meth addicts busting in at midnight. There are many that believe strongly that our right was given to us to protect us from a government gone wrong. Our last line of defense for liberty should tyranny usurp their intent.

I have a feeling that these people will, with a fairly straight face and much conviction, counter that weapons like this are the only way they can effectively fight back against an oppressive government armed with similar weapons.

Of course, I'm not sure where these citizens will get tanks and predator drones, but my faux-argument has its limitations. ;)

[Tom]

What is this hunting nonsense?
We have the right to keep and bear arms.
Period.
No reasons needed.

Each of us decided what we want to have, not what others thing we need.

And yes, John, I want a drone.
And a nuke with a saddle on it.

[TJDave]

i'm not a gun person , and maybe the terminology is throwing me off

but do we need "semi-automatic" handguns/pistols ??

that's a genuine question

i am going to go ahead and make big leap here using logic and in spite of my lack of being a gun person, say we DO NOT NEED semi-automatic rifles such as the murder weapon. (bushmaster .223 semi-auto) - Lanza's primary killing weapon.


Without getting all technical talking about single/double action...

With few exceptions (bolt action) it's ALL semi-automatic.

The real question is why anyone would need a 30rd magazine. :rolleyes:

[Robert Fischer]

guys..
these guns aren't going to do anything to the gov't , sorry to break it to you.

They might be useful for self-defense, but to stand up to the gov't :D, you're living in a fairy tale if you think some automatic weapons are going to do anything for you.

Personal weapons are FUTILE against the corporate militaries of the world. Better hope for a whole lot of conscientious objectors, and unified economic stand by the world population if it were ever to come to that.

[Robert Fischer]

What is this hunting nonsense?
We have the right to keep and bear arms.
Period.
No reasons needed.

Each of us decided what we want to have, not what others thing we need.

no reasons needed ought to be the policy for everything... sounds really logical for a functioning society ....

oh wait "no reasons needed" = slipping into chaotic anarchy

that's a terrible idea Tom.

[Robert Fischer]

Without getting all technical talking about single/double action...

With few exceptions (bolt action) it's ALL semi-automatic.

The real question is why anyone would need a 30rd magazine. :rolleyes:

that makes sense to me.

i know re-loading a handgun after every shot would be impractical. Like I said I have no idea about gun terminology.

[TJDave]

that makes sense to me.

i know re-loading a handgun after every shot would be impractical. Like I said I have no idea about gun terminology.

The ONLY practical difference between the "Bushmaster" and an M-16 is no full-auto fire...Which technically makes it not an assault weapon. ;) ;)


Looks like one, don't it?

Wonder why? :rolleyes:

[Tom]

that's a terrible idea Tom.

No, it is called freedom.

Do you suppose tell people how often they can go to Church?
What to feel free to say or write?
How often they should be able to assemble?

No reasons are ever required for rights.

[Robert Fischer]

The ONLY practical difference between the "Bushmaster" and an M-16 is no full-auto fire...Which technically makes it not an assault weapon. ;) ;)


Looks like one, don't it?

Wonder why? :rolleyes:

the name "Bushmaster"

is that meant to imply hunting?

or is it a tribute to two of our greatest presidents ;)

[TJDave]

the name "Bushmaster"

is that meant to imply hunting?

or is it a tribute to two of our greatest presidents ;)

The .223 is commonly known as a "varmint" rifle. For shooting prairie dogs, water rats and the like. ;)

[elysiantraveller]

A couple of things for RF.

Bushmaster is just a firearms manufacturer. The original designer of the AR-15 platform back in the 50's was Armalite which is where the AR in the name comes from. As far as use semi-automatics are extremely popular for hunting and the majority of guns made have a semi-automatic action. The .223/5.56 round is a good varmint weapon, I use mine on my property to remove coyotes, that gun is a AR.

The discussion about high capacity mags is a odd one. A person can carry a 30 roundd mag or 3 10 rounders, with practice they can change them extremely fast. With duct tape even faster. I just don't see how limiting them provides any real solution...

[johnhannibalsmith]

.... I just don't see how limiting them provides any real solution...

That's sort of how I see most of the argument we've been listening to in general. After past shootings, the media remarked in a silver-lining sort of way that what spared more carnage was the fact that the primary weapon jammed or malfunctioned someway. So what happens here, the kid shows up with four different weapons, brings three inside, along with massive amounts of extra ammo and magazines. He had a backup plan if one jammed. Or even two. These guys learn from those that they are emulating in one form or another and seem to be getting better. These "solutions" are geared towards fixing the problems as we wish they existed instead of how they actually do exist... I guess to make it seem as though we are doing "something" even if it isn't actually much of anything.

[Steve R]

How do you do that, Eintstein?
They are already out there.
A bunch of them put out there by Obama.
How do we keep them out of the country?
We can't keep drugs out, or people out.
How do you do it? Perhaps by making it a federal offense (with very severe penalties) to sell or even own an assault weapon without some special justification. As for keeping them out, I'd support a law that imposed a life sentence without parole for anyone caught smuggling assault weapons into the U.S. BTW, it's a lot easier to smuggle cocaine to satisfy a thousand users than it is to smuggle machine guns and bazookas to satisfy a thousand gun nuts. Preferably, just legalize drugs and eliminate most of the criminal activity. In the not too distant future I wouldn't worry about keeping people out. When the money's gone, they won't want to come. The number of illegals entering from Mexico has dropped dramatically since 2007 and the number of illegals returning to Mexico has increased. You see, illegal immigration was never about "values" or "freedom". It was always about the availability of money.

And your reference to Obama eludes me, or were you unaware there probably isn't anyone on this forum who despises Obama more than I do?

[ArlJim78]

I think this is another effective common sense idea. The bottomline is to change the perception that schools are not being watched or patroled by people with guns, that they are easy targets.

______________________________________________



Chief Beck Wants To Start Program Where Officers Visit Schools At Least Once Per Day (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2012/12/16/chief-beck-wants-to-start-program-where-officers-visit-schools-at-least-once-per-day/)

“I’m going to use all 10,000 Los Angeles police officers. We won’t be there all the time — but no one will ever know when we will be there. I don’t want anyone to think they can walk into a school in Los Angeles and be immune from the police. Cause you won’t be.”

[TJDave]

The discussion about high capacity mags is a odd one. A person can carry a 30 roundd mag or 3 10 rounders, with practice they can change them extremely fast. With duct tape even faster. I just don't see how limiting them provides any real solution...

There is a definite advantage in having high capacity. Sure, one can become adept changing out magazines...But these guys aren't Rambo's.

Speaking of Rambo, why would anyone who's not LE or military need practice in rapid fire? ;)

[elysiantraveller]

That's sort of how I see most of the argument we've been listening to in general. After past shootings, the media remarked in a silver-lining sort of way that what spared more carnage was the fact that the primary weapon jammed or malfunctioned someway. So what happens here, the kid shows up with four different weapons, brings three inside, along with massive amounts of extra ammo and magazines. He had a backup plan if one jammed. Or even two. These guys learn from those that they are emulating in one form or another and seem to be getting better. These "solutions" are geared towards fixing the problems as we wish they existed instead of how they actually do exist... I guess to make it seem as though we are doing "something" even if it isn't actually much of anything.

A mag is basically a metal box with a spring in it. The larger capacity the larger the spring and the more play the whole thing has leading them to be more likely to jam. There is a reason the military doesn't put 100 round mags on their infantry guns.

I'm all for having a real discussion about gun control but having a honest discussion isn't possible because one side argues they have a constitutional right to have guns and the other's end-game is to take that away.

There is very little that could have been done to prevent this and no laws being tossed around would have prevented it from happening.

[elysiantraveller]

There is a definite advantage in having high capacity. Sure, one can become adept changing out magazines...But these guys aren't Rambo's.

Speaking of Rambo, why would anyone who's not LE or military need practice in rapid fire? ;)

They compete in 3 Gun would be one example.

I'll agree to disagree with you on the high capacity part. In most states you can't have them when out in the field anyway. I only use a high capacity magazine at the range and that's because I'm lazy.

Sure you could regulate it but any idiot with some aluminum and a spring can build a magazine...

[TJDave]

Sure you could regulate it but any idiot with some aluminum and a spring can build a magazine...

I think you overestimate the intelligence of idiots.

[boxcar]

A mag is basically a metal box with a spring in it. The larger capacity the larger the spring and the more play the whole thing has leading them to be more likely to jam. There is a reason the military doesn't put 100 round mags on their infantry guns.

I'm all for having a real discussion about gun control but having a honest discussion isn't possible because one side argues they have a constitutional right to have guns and the other's end-game is to take that away.

There is very little that could have been done to prevent this and no laws being tossed around would have prevented it from happening.

You post much that I don't agree with (and I'm sure the feeling is mutual), but the above is not one those times. :ThmbUp:

Boxcar