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Capper Al
12-16-2012, 12:46 PM
With my wager size about to increase, the question comes up -- what a roller grouping is? It was said, somewhere in the eighties or nineties, that the average gambler put somewhere around a $150 (if memory serves) through the window at the track. Based on that would it be about $200 today. If so, taking +/- 20%, would a roller be between $160 to $240 today for a race card or 10 races anywhere? At $200 for 10 races, we talking about $20 a race. But then it gets more complicated, like anything else to do with horse racing, is a capper that puts down only one $200 bet in 10 races a high roller or just a regular roller? I'd have to favor what goes through the window at the end of the day and, therefore, call the one $200 bet a day guy just a roller with balls. How do you rate them?

Here are my categories for a typical card or 10 races:


under $160 low roller
$160 to $240 a roller
over $240 a high roller
Or should we be talking whales for high rollers?

Capper Al
12-16-2012, 01:08 PM
Just found this on the DRF website:

TRACK ATTENDANCE IN PAST 12 MONTHS



Twice a week or more .....60.8%

Once a week ....................13.6
Twice a month .................7.5
Once a month ...................6.6



WHEN YOU GO TO THE TRACK,
HOW MUCH DO YOU BRING TO BET OR WAGER?


Up to $49 ...................................7.5%

$50-$99 .......................................11.7
$100-$249 ...................................37.2
$250-$499 ...................................19.0
$500-$999 ...................................10.3
$1,000-$2,499 ..............................7.1
$2,500 or more ...........................2.4
Average .....................................$441.00


That changes everything. Using the +/- 20% we now have the following:

Low roller under $352.80 -- let's say $350
Roller (average) -- between $350 and $530
High roller -- over $529.20 -- Let's say $530
Whales over $2,500 -- our top two percent
How's that?

Overlay
12-16-2012, 02:57 PM
If the term "high roller" is meant to measure or indicate one's tolerance for risk, I agree that it can be discussed in terms of absolute bet size (as you have suggested). But I think that it can be even more validly considered as a percentage or proportion of one's own total available capital (either discretionary or aggregate), regardless of what specific bet amount that might involve. A person with limited capital who is willing to risk a higher percentage of it per bet may well be (by propensity) a higher roller than someone with greater resources who might wager more dollars, but bet a much smaller share of bankroll.

Dave Schwartz
12-16-2012, 03:44 PM
I believe there are THOUSANDS of players that bet $50 per race or more.

I would guess that there are a couple hundred players who bet $10m per year or more.

I think you need to scale your estimates up sharply.

baconswitchfarm
12-16-2012, 05:31 PM
I would say a whale is at least a 10 million dollar a year player.

MightBeSosa
12-16-2012, 05:37 PM
You could probably add those betting much less per year but selectively making large wagers when the opportunity strikes. Same effect on the pools.

I'd say you'd have to be betting 1000's a race to be considered a high roller at a major track. Doesn't mean its all on one horse either.

This was the bet level 20 years ago in NY among the big players.

Think of it this way, if you made 1000 $200 bets and got creamed , losing 10% of your handle, you'd only be losing 20k.

Would take you quite a while and 20k is not exactly big money.

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 01:17 PM
My assertions are now based on what DRF posted on their website. So I stand with the average roller being between 350 and 530 and a whale being over 2500. The ldea of whales putting over a 100,000 on a race on a regular basis is just BS.

thaskalos
12-17-2012, 02:01 PM
My assertions are now based on what DRF posted on their website. So I stand with the average roller being between 350 and 530 and a whale being over 2500. The ldea of whales putting over a 100,000 on a race on a regular basis is just BS.

Al, with all due respect...the thought that the high-roller brings $350 to $530 with them to the track for a day of betting is LAUGHABLE...regardless of what the DRF has posted. The high-roller bets that on one race.

Tom
12-17-2012, 02:17 PM
Remember this guy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/03/magazine/the-wizard-of-odds.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

He bets somewhere between $10 million and $18 million a year.

bob60566
12-17-2012, 02:31 PM
Remember this guy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/03/magazine/the-wizard-of-odds.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

He
How can he be good when he was no use at arithmatic :)

thaskalos
12-17-2012, 03:09 PM
Al, with all due respect...the thought that the high-roller brings $350 to $530 with them to the track for a day of betting is LAUGHABLE...regardless of what the DRF has posted. The high-roller bets that on one race.

I apologize for misreading your post, Al.

IMO...there is no way the average player has $500 in his pocket when he goes to the track. I think he has more like $250.

Here is my own estimate for what each group of bettors typically bring to the track (I am talking BETTING money. Not any other money he might happen to be carrying...which he doesn't intend to bet with):

Low Roller.............$100-$125 in his pocket.

Average Roller.......$250-$300 in his pocket.

Serious Roller.........$500-$1000 in his pocket.

High Roller.............$2,000+ in his pocket.

Whale....................Carries his money in a bag.

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 03:44 PM
Al, with all due respect...the thought that the high-roller brings $350 to $530 with them to the track for a day of betting is LAUGHABLE...regardless of what the DRF has posted. The high-roller bets that on one race.

Sorry you read it that way. I had 4 groupings:

low roller under $350.
roller between $350 and $530
high roller over $530 but under $2500
whale $2500 and over.

thaskalos
12-17-2012, 03:47 PM
Sorry you read it that way. I had 4 groupings:

low roller under $350.
roller between $350 and $530
high roller over $530 but under $2500
whale $2500 and over.


Yeah...I made a mistake reading it, but could not change my reply.

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 03:50 PM
I apologize for misreading your post, Al.

IMO...there is no way the average player has $500 in his pocket when he goes to the track. I think he has more like $250.

Here is my own estimate for what each group of bettors typically bring to the track (I am talking BETTING money. Not any other money he might happen to be carrying...which he doesn't intend to bet with):

Low Roller.............$100-$125 in his pocket.

Average Roller.......$250-$300 in his pocket.

Serious Roller.........$500-$1000 in his pocket.

High Roller.............$2,000+ in his pocket.

Whale....................Carries his money in a bag.

That's the way I would have it seen had I not found the DRF data.

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 03:52 PM
Remember this guy?

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/06/03/magazine/the-wizard-of-odds.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

He

This could be true, if so there isn't many like him.

Bullet Plane
12-17-2012, 04:58 PM
I don't think you can use a 10 card race as an example. Some well heeled guy might spend 1000 bucks at the races and be throwing it away, while somebody else might put down 20 bucks and really know what he is doing.

I guess a whale might put big bucks on some races.. who knows?

But from there down, it gets to be muddy water from a bet size or dollar amount.

For the average working stiff... making maybe 20k - 50k if he is putting down 200 dollars on one race, no exotics, win only, he is pretty serious in my book...

But if he making 250k - 500k a year, that might be chump change...

I'm talking here about recreational players....

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 05:15 PM
I don't think you can use a 10 card race as an example. Some well heeled guy might spend 1000 bucks at the races and be throwing it away, while somebody else might put down 20 bucks and really know what he is doing.

I guess a whale might put big bucks on some races.. who knows?

But from there down, it gets to be muddy water from a bet size or dollar amount.

For the average working stiff... making maybe 20k - 50k if he is putting down 200 dollars on one race, no exotics, win only, he is pretty serious in my book...

But if he making 250k - 500k a year, that might be chump change...

I'm talking here about recreational players....

Unfortunately for us, the casinos treat the guy with the chump change much better than the rest of us. That in essence is what a high roller is. Arlington had a special setting area once for high rollers. I don't know if they still do anymore. $200 thru a window in one race or ten is still $200 thru the window.

ten2oneormore
12-17-2012, 05:39 PM
The ldea of whales putting over a 100,000 on a race on a regular basis is just BS.

Someone put $100,000.00 on Violence just before post of the Cash Call.

Magister Ludi
12-17-2012, 05:48 PM
My assertions are now based on what DRF posted on their website. So I stand with the average roller being between 350 and 530 and a whale being over 2500. The ldea of whales putting over a 100,000 on a race on a regular basis is just BS.
In some horse racing markets, such as Hong Kong, it is very easy to bet over $100,000 USD on a race. Unfortunately, the United States market is generally too thin for that volume.

horses4courses
12-17-2012, 05:56 PM
Having worked in racebooks for many years, I know what qualified by our standards as a high roller.
Consistent play to a high level per day is invaluable.
The players that will give you good action (over $1K per day), and visit you most days, are as good as it gets.

Of course, guys that visit occasionally, but give you over $10K per day in action also warrant VIP status.
When it comes to player status, though, you have to look at the big picture.

I was amazed when I worked in OTB mutuels in Chicago, in the early 90s, that they had no player tracking system in place. At a staff meeting one time, when I suggested to the facility manager (food and beverage background), that they should look hard at giving top players more perks, her face lit up like she had just seen the Holy Grail. I wasn't there much longer, and I bet they tracked their players soon after that. It's not rocket science....strong players deserve the best. :ThmbUp:

Dave Schwartz
12-17-2012, 06:52 PM
We had a client like 17-18 years ago who lived in Las Vegas. She was one of the two most successful female players I have ever know. Between them, they took down close to $1m per year. Most of our long-time users know both of these players.

This one player, who I will call "Mr. Maiden" (because she used to have a 900-number service by that name), was, by her own admission, a $2 player. I would visit her at the Hilton in Las Vegas which was her home field. She always sat in one of two private rows they had for big players. (If you ever saw it, those were the rows with the little swinging gates.)

One day I asked her, "How is it that a $2 player gets to sit in these 2 rows?"

She said, "Dave, I play nothing but Trifectas, Superfectas, Pick6s, and other multi-race bets, looking for big hits. I may be a $2 bettor, but I buy A LOT OF TICKETS on each race."


Dave

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 08:07 PM
Someone put $100,000.00 on Violence just before post of the Cash Call.

I did say on a regular basis.

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 08:08 PM
In some horse racing markets, such as Hong Kong, it is very easy to bet over $100,000 USD on a race. Unfortunately, the United States market is generally too thin for that volume.

C.X. Wong did mention that.

Capper Al
12-17-2012, 08:14 PM
We had a client like 17-18 years ago who lived in Las Vegas. She was one of the two most successful female players I have ever know. Between them, they took down close to $1m per year. Most of our long-time users know both of these players.

This one player, who I will call "Mr. Maiden" (because she used to have a 900-number service by that name), was, by her own admission, a $2 player. I would visit her at the Hilton in Las Vegas which was her home field. She always sat in one of two private rows they had for big players. (If you ever saw it, those were the rows with the little swinging gates.)

One day I asked her, "How is it that a $2 player gets to sit in these 2 rows?"

She said, "Dave, I play nothing but Trifectas, Superfectas, Pick6s, and other multi-race bets, looking for big hits. I may be a $2 bettor, but I buy A LOT OF TICKETS on each race."


Dave

DRF doesn't deny this. It only says that less than 2.4% bet over 2500. It sounds like she was in the top 2.4% of the top 2.4%.

thespaah
12-17-2012, 09:43 PM
With my wager size about to increase, the question comes up -- what a roller grouping is? It was said, somewhere in the eighties or nineties, that the average gambler put somewhere around a $150 (if memory serves) through the window at the track. Based on that would it be about $200 today. If so, taking +/- 20%, would a roller be between $160 to $240 today for a race card or 10 races anywhere? At $200 for 10 races, we talking about $20 a race. But then it gets more complicated, like anything else to do with horse racing, is a capper that puts down only one $200 bet in 10 races a high roller or just a regular roller? I'd have to favor what goes through the window at the end of the day and, therefore, call the one $200 bet a day guy just a roller with balls. How do you rate them?

Here are my categories for a typical card or 10 races:


under $160 low roller
$160 to $240 a roller
over $240 a high roller
Or should we be talking whales for high rollers?I consider myself a "low roller".
I usually bring a minimum of $250 to the track. I keep a running bet/return total written down on each page of the program as the day progresses. I am sometimes surprised to find that if I play all or most of the races, I have wagered as much as $400 in total bets for the day. My highest ever was nearly $600. Ironically, the days when my bets total the most are when I am up and down through the day. On these days I have either made a small profit or broke even on the day.
Of course my lowest cumulative totals are on days when the betting Gods are just pissed at me. Middle of the road totals when I am on a tear.
I very rarely increase the size of my bets for any reason. I believe successful wagering begins with good money management.

CincyHorseplayer
12-18-2012, 01:43 AM
How much does everybody bet in relation to how much they make a day at their other income source?

I make about $150 a day at work.I bet about $250 a day at the track.

If were measuring our Johnson's here,I think it should be how much more do you bet than you make a day?!If your income is dictated by your betting ROI,you are a player!

Capper Al
12-18-2012, 06:24 AM
My father lost the family home at the race track. I'm a big believer that a capper should only bet what they can afford to lose. I also recommend that one keeps their spouse informed of all monies moved in/out for wagering to keep us honest. What is significant now for me is that I'm moving on up the ladder with the track's money not mine. My fund has gone up more than 4 times. I transfered half of it out leaving my base fund twice of the original size, so I'm doubling my bets as long as I have the track's money to use. I'm moving on up from a mini-roller to a low roller. Figure that out?

Capper Al
12-18-2012, 06:27 AM
I consider myself a "low roller".
I usually bring a minimum of $250 to the track. I keep a running bet/return total written down on each page of the program as the day progresses. I am sometimes surprised to find that if I play all or most of the races, I have wagered as much as $400 in total bets for the day. My highest ever was nearly $600. Ironically, the days when my bets total the most are when I am up and down through the day. On these days I have either made a small profit or broke even on the day.
Of course my lowest cumulative totals are on days when the betting Gods are just pissed at me. Middle of the road totals when I am on a tear.
I very rarely increase the size of my bets for any reason. I believe successful wagering begins with good money management.

Thespaah,

After finding a DRF article, I revised my original opinion to the following:


under $350 -- low rollers
between $350 and $530 -- rollers
between $530 and $2,50 -- high rollers
over $2,500 -- Whales

ten2oneormore
12-18-2012, 09:42 AM
I did say on a regular basis.

I would guess that wasn't the first 100k bet he/she has made.Not saying they play it every race but I would assume it wasn't abnormal nor the largest or smallest bet he/she makes.

wisconsin
12-18-2012, 10:28 AM
How much does everybody bet in relation to how much they make a day at their other income source?

I make about $150 a day at work.I bet about $250 a day at the track.

If were measuring our Johnson's here,I think it should be how much more do you bet than you make a day?!If your income is dictated by your betting ROI,you are a player!


You wager $250 or you bring with you $250?

I know that on some days I have walked in with $200 and churned $1,500 in wagers by the end of a good day. One time, I was up $4,000 at one point and left plus $1,000. I must have bet $7,500 that crazy day. I am much more disciplined now.

thespaah
12-18-2012, 03:59 PM
How much does everybody bet in relation to how much they make a day at their other income source?

I make about $150 a day at work.I bet about $250 a day at the track.

If were measuring our Johnson's here,I think it should be how much more do you bet than you make a day?!If your income is dictated by your betting ROI,you are a player!
I put away cash for my visits to the track. I NEVER use an ATM at the track. That is, what my bankroll is when I walk in, is it for the the day. If I should get my ass kicked, there's no "re buy". I'm out.
I should write a book entitled: "A Day at the Races, How not to get killed betting Horses and Still Have Fun".

CincyHorseplayer
12-18-2012, 11:57 PM
You wager $250 or you bring with you $250?

I know that on some days I have walked in with $200 and churned $1,500 in wagers by the end of a good day. One time, I was up $4,000 at one point and left plus $1,000. I must have bet $7,500 that crazy day. I am much more disciplined now.

OK then.We know your Johnson is 7500 worth.Golf clap for you.You outshine nearly all of us.How much is that in relation to what you make in one day?It was a simple question.Don't hillbilly me with badazz spending.How much do you wager in relation to what you are worth?It's a simple question.I don't think many can answer it.I put my a$s on display because I'm not scared.Nothing to hide.

thaskalos
12-19-2012, 12:20 AM
OK then.We know your Johnson is 7500 worth.Golf clap for you.You outshine nearly all of us.How much is that in relation to what you make in one day?It was a simple question.Don't hillbilly me with badazz spending.How much do you wager in relation to what you are worth?It's a simple question.I don't think many can answer it.I put my a$s on display because I'm not scared.Nothing to hide.

I make $400 a day at my job, and wager an average of about $4,000 a day at the track...six days a week. :cool:

Capper Al
12-19-2012, 03:02 AM
I make $400 a day at my job, and wager an average of about $4,000 a day at the track...six days a week. :cool:

You're in the top 2.4%. Cincy's point is still valid. Remember the first $50,000 a year we earn isn't disposable income. It's necessary cash to survive. Disposable income is what we can afford to lose and spend at the track.

thaskalos
12-19-2012, 03:22 AM
You're in the top 2.4%. Cincy's point is still valid. Remember the first $50,000 a year we earn isn't disposable income. It's necessary cash to survive. Disposable income is what we can afford to lose and spend at the track.

I don't believe that people should bring disposable income to the track. That is called "playing out of pocket"...and it's a very bad idea, IMO...regardless of how competent the horseplayer is.

The horseplayer should set up a bankroll which is saved up from his disposable income...and then he should operate strictly within that bankroll -- endeavoring to build it up over time -- while leaving the rest of his disposable income alone.

It is strictly my opinion, of course...but I don't consider a horseplayer to be "serious" about what he does at the track, until he sets up a bankroll for his play.

Setting up a bankroll and playing within it instill discipline...and also protect against catastrophic losses.

wisconsin
12-19-2012, 09:17 AM
OK then.We know your Johnson is 7500 worth.Golf clap for you.You outshine nearly all of us.How much is that in relation to what you make in one day?It was a simple question.Don't hillbilly me with badazz spending.How much do you wager in relation to what you are worth?It's a simple question.I don't think many can answer it.I put my a$s on display because I'm not scared.Nothing to hide.


You are clearly overreacting. I asked a simple question of you. Is the $250 what you walk in with or what you wager? Just trying to clarify how people monitor how much they actually bet.

I'm sure we have all had days of large churn. I was not measuring dicks with you at all, so ease up.

I make $300 a day at my job. I walk into a track or OTB with around $500. I really don't keep track of my actual wagering amounts. If I have a bad day, I wager $500. If I have a better day, I obviously wager more.

Magister Ludi
12-19-2012, 09:31 AM
I don't believe that people should bring disposable income to the track. That is called "playing out of pocket"...and it's a very bad idea, IMO...regardless of how competent the horseplayer is.

The horseplayer should set up a bankroll which is saved up from his disposable income...and then he should operate strictly within that bankroll -- endeavoring to build it up over time -- while leaving the rest of his disposable income alone.

It is strictly my opinion, of course...but I don't consider a horseplayer to be "serious" about what he does at the track, until he sets up a bankroll for his play.

Setting up a bankroll and playing within it instill discipline...and also protect against catastrophic losses.
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:
My nomination for Post of the Year.

Overlay
12-19-2012, 09:49 AM
I don't believe that people should bring disposable income to the track. That is called "playing out of pocket"...and it's a very bad idea, IMO...regardless of how competent the horseplayer is.

The horseplayer should set up a bankroll which is saved up from his disposable income...and then he should operate strictly within that bankroll -- endeavoring to build it up over time -- while leaving the rest of his disposable income alone.

It is strictly my opinion, of course...but I don't consider a horseplayer to be "serious" about what he does at the track, until he sets up a bankroll for his play.

Setting up a bankroll and playing within it instill discipline...and also protect against catastrophic losses.
Another significant component of the effort to instill discipline (in my opinion) is reducing subjectivity in both the selected types and amounts of wagers to the greatest degree possible.

Capper Al
12-19-2012, 10:04 AM
I don't believe that people should bring disposable income to the track. That is called "playing out of pocket"...and it's a very bad idea, IMO...regardless of how competent the horseplayer is.

The horseplayer should set up a bankroll which is saved up from his disposable income...and then he should operate strictly within that bankroll -- endeavoring to build it up over time -- while leaving the rest of his disposable income alone.

It is strictly my opinion, of course...but I don't consider a horseplayer to be "serious" about what he does at the track, until he sets up a bankroll for his play.

Setting up a bankroll and playing within it instill discipline...and also protect against catastrophic losses.

The bankroll has to be made from disposable income.

therussmeister
12-19-2012, 11:02 AM
Ideally, except for a small seed, bankroll is made from racetrack profits, and bankroll should not be considered disposable.

Capper Al
12-19-2012, 01:13 PM
Ideally, except for a small seed, bankroll is made from racetrack profits, and bankroll should not be considered disposable.

Agree. Once it is established then it becomes a fund of its own and must be managed. I call mine the H fund.

wisconsin
12-19-2012, 05:00 PM
Agree. Once it is established then it becomes a fund of its own and must be managed. I call mine the H fund.


I tell my wife it's a "Mutuel" Fund. ;)

CincyHorseplayer
12-21-2012, 03:56 PM
You are clearly overreacting. I asked a simple question of you. Is the $250 what you walk in with or what you wager? Just trying to clarify how people monitor how much they actually bet.

I'm sure we have all had days of large churn. I was not measuring dicks with you at all, so ease up.

I make $300 a day at my job. I walk into a track or OTB with around $500. I really don't keep track of my actual wagering amounts. If I have a bad day, I wager $500. If I have a better day, I obviously wager more.

OK.I was a bit off for a second.I think everything is relative.My point was if there's a guy out there that makes $5000 a day and bets $2000 it's not as impressive IMO as a guy that makes $2000 a day and bets $5000.

Reading this thread,I'm seeing a trend that the longer we are in this game,the more comfortable we are betting more in relation to what we make in real life.Personally I would feel comfortable betting 15-20% of my total bankroll per day tops.In my experience up to this point anything beyond that would be reckless.

I knew a guy from my old neighborhood that would outbet me 10 times over in a day.If he lost that meant his kids didn't eat because the food stamps were hocked at 2 to 1,the welfare check was gone,and his money from selling weed took a major hit.I sure didn't think he was a player:cool:

myhorse1
12-21-2012, 08:27 PM
I think everything is relative.My point was if there's a guy out there that makes $5000 a day and bets $2000 it's not as impressive IMO as a guy that makes $2000 a day and bets $5000.

:
You are leaving a lot unsaid.

If what they make a day is strictly from betting why would you not be more impressed by the guy betting $2000 and making $5000.

Betting over how long a period?

baconswitchfarm
12-21-2012, 09:20 PM
I would be interested in one of these $5000 a day jobs. Twice the Nba league minimum. Pretty sweet.

Greyfox
12-21-2012, 10:38 PM
I make $400 a day at my job, and wager an average of about $4,000 a day at the track...six days a week. :cool:

You have raised an issue that most people don't really pay attention to.

Most bettors put through the tote far more money in the course of a year than they realize.

Thaskalos - If you are supplementing your income at the job by $160 a day, you are doing well.
As you are a very bright handicapper, I suspect that you are making more than that.

thespaah
12-22-2012, 10:36 AM
The bankroll has to be made from disposable income.
Correct. A PORTION of that disposable income.
For example, I go to the track or bet on line with funds set aside. In other words a portion of disposable income earmarked especially for things such as wagering..
Or for other things. Such as a round of golf.
Put it this way. Finances are tight for most of us. Unless one is a professional bettor, i.e. one who's occupation it is to earn a living by wagering on horses, it is recreational gambling. And as such, it is incumbent on the recreational gambler to budget his or her money appropriately.

Exotic1
12-22-2012, 11:53 AM
:ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:
My nomination for Post of the Year.

Some Serious advice offered by Thask.

I'd throw in a couple of dollars into a "Post of the Year" pool and a "Poster of the Year" pool.