27 Dead in Conn School shooting

[Tom]

Dreadful breaking news.
Maybe 14 students among the dead.


http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57559229/child-gunman-dead-in-conn-elementary-school-shooting/

[cj's dad]

I believe I heard on the news it was a k through 4th grade school.

This is beyond awful.

[dartman51]

I just heard 19 students and 8 adults, dead. What kind of sick individual targets women and children. This is just sickening. :(

[Striker]

I believe I heard on the news it was a k through 4th grade school.

This is beyond awful.
Yeah at an elementary school. Authorities are saying the suspect is dead. He had 2 weapons, a glock and a sig sauer.

[RaceBookJoe]

Horrible news. I was just saying the other day after the OR shooting, that this is just going to keep getting worse. I have my reasons why i think that, and it has nothing to do with guns or access to guns. Prayers to the community during this tragic time.

[DJofSD]

Just now learning about his tragedy. 27 reported dead.

[LavaFAN]

people are so sick in this world

[wisconsin]

and cowardly

[DJofSD]

I just spent about 30 minutes sampling information about the shooting. I looked at web sites, listened to 1 local radio station and viewed 2 national network's news reporting.

What passes for reporting and journalism just sucks. Inuendo, extrapolation, idle speculation and very little clear delineation of what is known and what is not known. There are even instances of being told what the authorities are doing when the authorities have not said what exactly they are doing. One reporter even stated that search warrents were being obtained so they could go to the school.

They're trying hard but sometimes it is best to say less or nothing at all.

[thaskalos]

I just spent about 30 minutes sampling information about the shooting. I looked at web sites, listened to 1 local radio station and viewed 2 national network's news reporting.

What passes for reporting and journalism just sucks. Inuendo, extrapolation, idle speculation and very little clear delineation of what is known and what is not known. There are even instances of being told what the authorities are doing when the authorities have not said what exactly they are doing. One reporter even stated that search warrents were being obtained so they could go to the school.

They're trying hard but sometimes it is best to say less or nothing at all.

They are not "trying hard"...IMO.

They are trying to beat others to the story...and they release things before they become fully varified.

It may be a harmless practice in minor cases...but not when it involves something like this...

[Valuist]

The insanity continues. 22 kids slashed in China:

http://www.courant.com/sns-rt-us-china-stabbingsbre8bd065-20121213,0,5592318.story

[Greybase]

Horrible news. I was just saying the other day after the OR shooting, that this is just going to keep getting worse..
I'm in Portland... right near the Clackamas Mall where a 22-year old murdered two people this week. He ran into the mall carrying an AR-15, wearing a hockey mask. He began shooting at random near the Food Court while Christmas music played in the background....

His AR-15 jammed... Cops were there in a flash so he took off running. Committed suicide in a stair well. We were VERY lucky the death toll wasn't much much higher.

[cj's dad]

Yeah at an elementary school. Authorities are saying the suspect is dead. He had 2 weapons, a glock and a sig sauer.

Supposedly. one other is in custody, 20 years old.

I have this sick feeling that these violent video games influence these whack jobs.

[Striker]

Supposedly. one other is in custody, 20 years old.

Yep and now it is up to 4 weapons recovered. This is horrifying.

[DJofSD]

They are not "trying hard"...IMO.

They are trying to beat others to the story...and they release things before they become fully varified.

It may be a harmless practice in minor cases...but not when it involves something like this...
Yes, that race to be first is always a part of it.

NBC just corrected one item: the shooter's mother was a worker at the school and apparently was one of the many shot and killed. Before, they had reported she was found dead in her home in New Jersey.

I have yet to hear of any FBI involvement.

[Striker]

Shooter identified as Ryan Lanza and his mother was an employee of the school and is one of the victims.

[tbwinner]

Fox News reporting that the gunman's father was found dead in the Hoboken, NJ home too..

[DJofSD]

Fox News reporting that the gunman's father was found dead in the Hoboken, NJ home too..
Sad development.

So, if the FBI was not involved before, they certainly will be now.

[Greyfox]

I'm deeply saddened.

My prayers and thoughts go out to the families and friends of the loved ones.

God Bless children everywhere.

[Tom]

20 children the latest count, 3:15?
Obama about to address the nation any minute now.

[DJofSD]

I'm sure some will be comforted by his words.

[Marshall Bennett]

Sad day. A shame the children as innocent as they are appeared to be the targets of this deranged individual.
I pray for the parents and families. How devastating this must be.

[ceejay]

Just horrible. :( :(

[LavaFAN]

Now there saying it wasnt Ryan Lanza it was his younger brother Adam Lanza

[098poi]

No words really. My heartfelt prayers to all the families and friends.

[Striker]

Now there saying it wasnt Ryan Lanza it was his younger brother Adam Lanza
Rumors from the media are that he had Ryan Lanza's ID on him.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Ryan, Adam, Joe...

Regardless of his name, string this peckerhead's corpse up in the very room in which it now lays and let anyone interested play it like a pinata. See what falls out after a few hundred whacks. If we must make these macabre scumbags posthumous celebrities, the least we can do is then give them a proper televised sendoff for the benefit of all the other wannabe infamous pieces of shit. Just to let them know who really gets the last word.

[badcompany]

Sickening

[JustRalph]

I am starting to detect a theme. Why are these State officials stating over and over that "all assets" were on the scene.

I smell a dog and pony show developing.................

[bobbyb]

I too am just sickened by this terrible shooting.

My Prayers and Condolences to the families.

bobby

[thaskalos]

What a terrible world we live in, if even kindergarteners are not safe in their schools.

Even a torturous death is too good for some of the scum out there...

[ArlJim78]

I can't even imagine the grief and horror that the parents, siblings and classmates are going through today.

[Marshall Bennett]

They're saying it could be quite a while before they remove the dead children from the crime scene. This must make it even harder on the parents. How helpless they must feel. I don't quite understand why it should take that long.

[HUSKER55]

has anyone heard of the motive?

[Beachbabe]

What a sad, sad Christmas for the families of these young, innocent children.

I would say the holidays will never be the same for any of these people.

A prayer to all the families involved.

:(

[fast4522]

The liberal approach is control guns so this can not happen again. I see the need to control liberals so the national debate is on jobs. The other day in China another whack job went whack a do with a knife, same shit different country. Anytime there is is a huge populous of significantly underemployed people who played with drugs when young will whack out and blame everyone for the fact that they are nothing in life. The cold truth is what you put into life is what you might expect to get out of life. The horrible loss of life that these poor family's are experiencing is something we should all look into the mirror for being responsible for. Our United States of America is degenerating to much less than what it was a decade ago. Company's like GE, Google, Apple, and countless others employ only a small fraction of employees in this country, while employing the majority or a large fraction outside this country. No jobs equal chaos and low wages for the rest of your lifetime and many more ugly days like today.

[PaceAdvantage]

This is just way beyond sad. Nothing really more to say...

[newtothegame]

Today, I can honestly say I could not wait for my grand daughter to walk through the door from school. I met her at the door, gave her a huge hug, looked her in the face and told her I love her soo much.
I can't imagine being one of the parents waiting, and waiting, and waiting, only to find out their child will not be coming home.
This is just horrific on so many levels. :( :( :( :(

[Stillriledup]

You would figure that at some point, we have drastic changes in this country, im just not sure what can be changed to prevent this from happening again.

I cant even fathom the horror of the situation, this stuff just makes no sense to me why it keeps happening.

God bless all involved, i can't even begin to imagine what kind of pain the people who are close to this situation are in right now.

[PaceAdvantage]

You would figure that at some point, we have drastic changes in this country, im just not sure what can be changed to prevent this from happening again.I'll give you a drastic change that is easy to do (well, it costs money) and may prove effective.

Start locking up nutjobs in a proactive manner, instead of waiting for them to go off the deep end. These days, you can't have someone committed to an institution unless they are a "danger to themselves or others." Yeah, real vague, and real helpful.... :rolleyes:

I'd blame it on political correctness in some way, but this thread is neither the time or the place for it...

Why am I saying this? Because I just read the following:

Ryan (the shooter's brother) told police that Adam has a history of mental illness, according to the senior official. http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/14/15907407-elementary-school-massacre-27-killed-including-20-kids-at-connecticut-school?lite

[thaskalos]

The liberal approach is control guns so this can not happen again. I see the need to control liberals so the national debate is on jobs. The other day in China another whack job went whack a do with a knife, same shit different country. Anytime there is is a huge populous of significantly underemployed people who played with drugs when young will whack out and blame everyone for the fact that they are nothing in life. The cold truth is what you put into life is what you might expect to get out of life. The horrible loss of life that these poor family's are experiencing is something we should all look into the mirror for being responsible for. Our United States of America is degenerating to much less than what it was a decade ago. Company's like GE, Google, Apple, and countless others employ only a small fraction of employees in this country, while employing the majority or a large fraction outside this country. No jobs equal chaos and low wages for the rest of your lifetime and many more ugly days like today.

Why the political commentary, when just a sympathy note would have done quite nicely?

[horses4courses]

If you're lucky enough to have kids, or grandchildren, be sure to give them a hug when you next see them.

[JustRalph]

You would figure that at some point, we have drastic changes in this country, im just not sure what can be changed to prevent this from happening again.

I cant even fathom the horror of the situation, this stuff just makes no sense to me why it keeps happening.

God bless all involved, i can't even begin to imagine what kind of pain the people who are close to this situation are in right now.

Not the place, and mostly not the time. But there are a couple of drastic failures overlooked in all this reporting and PA has touched on part of it.

Security was in place, and it was compromised. That's huge in this scenario. I also predict it will be huge in the coming lawsuits

[nijinski]

My heart goes out to all the loved ones of these children who lost their lives today ... and to everyone lost on this very sad day .

It's one of those times that really tests ones faith .We can only hope for those who are grieving ,that they find some peace and comfort somehow.

[johnhannibalsmith]

You would figure that at some point, we have drastic changes in this country, im just not sure what can be changed to prevent this from happening again.

...

Nothing. There are people that do horrible things. You can alter their methods or maybe even minimize their damage, but you aren't going to stop it. What is nasty is that the trend, though I don't think in all the cases like this that it is done for this reason, is that those targeted are all in places that are easy to attack and do significant damage. It's easy to say put a cop in every shool. Put a metal detector and extra security in every mall and theater. Then at WalMart. Then at the public park. Then, everywhere?

The ONE serious thing that could be done to help mitigate the likelihood of SOME of this bullshit is a) the easiest and b) the one that will never happen:

STOP treating the ****ing perpetrator as the story!!! All day long - what's his name, what's his history, does he have catchy middle name? We eat this crap up, the "mind of a lunatic", and celebrate it nightly whether on tonight's news or on the Biography channel. For ****'s sake, we have ACTUAL celebrities reduced to regularly doing some idiotic, often criminal activity, for NO REASON other than to re-establish and solidify their status as "worthy" of discussion. Reality star mentality of this country - what stupid ass thing can I do to make a name or a buck?

Obviously, I think this particular case is much more a story of a complete crackpot that was having a particularly bad day in his universe and no thesis on weapons or security or video games can rightfully be attributed to a story of a person that would actually murder one child methodically after another, twenty times. When you do that, there's no worthy discussion other than just how ****ing pathetic and ****ed up you have to be to actually stand there and fire repeatedly in that way.

[so.cal.fan]

It just seems these types of horror are happening almost on a daily basis, somewhere in this world.
It seems to be getting worse, and these horrible events keep getting more and more shocking.
It makes me wonder if some of the people are right...we are in "end times"?
Yesterday, I would not have thought this, tonight, I wonder........ :(

[PaceAdvantage]

No, we're not in end times. And like JHS said so rightly, there isn't much one can do to stop people like this, short of locking them up before they get a chance to carry out their particular brand of crazy.

What happened today is incomprehensible in terms of the magnitude of pure evil involved.

From losing your child in such a sudden, shocking, and brutal manner, to the psychological impact the very sight of these slaughtered, innocent children will have on all those who went through the horror of witnessing such a thing (survivors, first responders, MEs, etc), it is just completely incomprehensible...

[lamboguy]

Today, I can honestly say I could not wait for my grand daughter to walk through the door from school. I met her at the door, gave her a huge hug, looked her in the face and told her I love her soo much.
I can't imagine being one of the parents waiting, and waiting, and waiting, only to find out their child will not be coming home.
This is just horrific on so many levels. :( :( :( :(you did the right thing, keep hugging her, she is very precious.

[Tape Reader]

They're saying it could be quite a while before they remove the dead children from the crime scene. This must make it even harder on the parents. How helpless they must feel. I don't quite understand why it should take that long.

Can any one explain this?

[hcap]

The liberal approach is control guns so this can not happen again. I see the need to control liberals so the national debate is on jobs. The other day in China another whack job went whack a do with a knife, same shit different country. Anytime there is is a huge populous of significantly underemployed people who played with drugs when young will whack out and blame everyone for the fact that they are nothing in life. The cold truth is what you put into life is what you might expect to get out of life. The horrible loss of life that these poor family's are experiencing is something we should all look into the mirror for being responsible for. Our United States of America is degenerating to much less than what it was a decade ago. Company's like GE, Google, Apple, and countless others employ only a small fraction of employees in this country, while employing the majority or a large fraction outside this country. No jobs equal chaos and low wages for the rest of your lifetime and many more ugly days like today.THIS IS A VERY INAPPROPRIATE TIME FOR ONE OF YOUR RANTS. SHUT UP

[tbwinner]

Can any one explain this?

All I've heard was that they need to positively identify every body.

Some were saying the bodies won't even be released for a few days.

How horrible, I agree, for the parents.

Ugh. Just terrible all around.

[Robert Fischer]

STOP treating the ****ing perpetrator as the story!!! All day long - what's his name, what's his history, does he have catchy middle name? We eat this crap up, the "mind of a lunatic", and celebrate it nightly whether on tonight's news or on the Biography channel. For ****'s sake, we have ACTUAL celebrities reduced to regularly doing some idiotic, often criminal activity, for NO REASON other than to re-establish and solidify their status as "worthy" of discussion. Reality star mentality of this country - what stupid ass thing can I do to make a name or a buck?


it's true that the media seeks to capitalize on this like a pack of piranhas.
This case and the train case remind us that the media, our greatest source of information about "reality", will sell it's soul for a dollar.

[redshift1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4l3Rgq-L1M

[Tape Reader]

All I've heard was that they need to positively identify every body.

Some were saying the bodies won't even be released for a few days.

How horrible, I agree, for the parents.

Ugh. Just terrible all around.

Does anyone know if parents were allowed to visit with the deceased?

[OntheRail]

The loss of a child is a pain that no parent should have to experience... my heart goes out to them. Time will numb it... but a void that will never be filled... :(

[newtothegame]

Does anyone know if parents were allowed to visit with the deceased?
If, and thats a big IF, the children are still in the school (for forensic reason I heard), then I would assume that no, the parents have not been allowed in the school. I would imagine once the bodies are taken and cleaned up, then the parents would be allowed the time. Of course I do not know this to be the case, I am just assuming. I cant see how the parents would be allowed to go into this horrific scene as I am sure it is already traumatic enough without adding to the misery.

[ArlJim78]

I heard a crisis counselor pretty much say the same thing. the bodies of the children would be cleaned up a bit, wounds covered up as much as possible, etc, then moved away from the scene before letting parents/family see the bodies.

the folks who worked that scene,,, beyond comprehension what they witnessed and how they will deal with it over time.

[Tape Reader]

The loss of a child is a pain that no parent should have to experience... my heart goes out to them. Time will numb it... but a void that will never be filled... :(

Thank you and please try to never imagine it.

[Tape Reader]

If, and thats a big IF, the children are still in the school (for forensic reason I heard), then I would assume that no, the parents have not been allowed in the school. I would imagine once the bodies are taken and cleaned up, then the parents would be allowed the time. Of course I do not know this to be the case, I am just assuming. I cant see how the parents would be allowed to go into this horrific scene as I am sure it is already traumatic enough without adding to the misery.

Thank you, but, I can't imagine how I could be stopped from taking my child home.

[OntheRail]

Thank you and please try to never imagine it
If only it was that simple.

Thank you, but, I can't imagine how I could be stopped from taking my child home.
They will not release any body to a parent. The Medical Examiner will only release to a mortician or their assistant. State Law's govern the handling of the deceased.

[fast4522]

THIS IS A VERY INAPPROPRIATE TIME FOR ONE OF YOUR RANTS. SHUT UP

Not In your lifetime!

[fast4522]

Why the political commentary, when just a sympathy note would have done quite nicely?

After so many events, a sympathy note just does not cut it. In order to fix the problems in our country we actually have to face them. In Germany right now today their government takes kids away from their parents who by their standards do not fit. The government is much more proactive in such matters than the USA is, but it is just a bureaucratic approach in a socialist system that is the root of the problem. The problem I have is the fact that bureaucrats do not fix anything, like ever and they make more money than the average Joe. This country needs to be put back to work and with its people all busy there would be significantly less insanity. I feel for everyone who lost a loved one in this tragedy, but look to see whys.

[lamboguy]

i was just watching the news and they recommended that parents turn off the television sets today and throw away the newspapers and make sure everything is normal with your children. the events in Conn. effect kids 3000 miles away.

[PICSIX]

I can't even imagine, don't want to imagine, what it would be like to lose a child. My thoughts and prayers are with these families. :(

[Tom]

After so many events, a sympathy note just does not cut it.

Yes, it does.
Offer a prayer - God knows, a lot of people need one today.
Some of theses Mothers were wrapping Christmas present, baking cookies, hanging decorations, planning visits to Grandma's for dinner......now they have to go pick up the bodies of their babies.
It doesn't get any worse than this.

[CryingForTheHorses]

So saddened by this,Made me cry watching the news today and yesterday.I just dont undersand why a person would do this The poor little kids never had a chance at life.They didnt even know the word hate!! I am hurting today and I dont even have kids. God Bless them all!!! :( :( :(

[098poi]

So saddened by this,Made me cry watching the news today and yesterday.I just dont undersand why a person would do this The poor little kids never had a chance at life.They didnt even know the word hate!! I am hurting today and I dont even have kids. God Bless them all!!! :( :( :(

I hope I can express this correctly but when a high school kid does this to other high school kids or someone in college does it I don't identify with it but I can kind of accept that it happened. Even when someone goes crazy at a mall or movie theater in some distant sense I can wrap my head around it a little. But with this I am at a complete loss. I know we can't try to "figure out" everything in life but I am at a complete loss as I said. I am not making light of or justifying other horrific acts just trying to express how I feel right now.

[Tom]

The photo that really hit me hardest was the one where the teacher was leading the kids out, hands on shoulders, eyes closed, so they would not see the horror they had to pass. Like she was desperately trying to save them from as much as she could.

That just ain't right.

[Saratoga_Mike]

After so many events, a sympathy note just does not cut it. In order to fix the problems in our country we actually have to face them. In Germany right now today their government takes kids away from their parents who by their standards do not fit. The government is much more proactive in such matters than the USA is, but it is just a bureaucratic approach in a socialist system that is the root of the problem. The problem I have is the fact that bureaucrats do not fix anything, like ever and they make more money than the average Joe. This country needs to be put back to work and with its people all busy there would be significantly less insanity. I feel for everyone who lost a loved one in this tragedy, but look to see whys.

High unemployment results in psychotic episodes? That seems to be the implication of your statement, but perhaps I'm reading it incorrectly.

[HUSKER55]

I just watched a news clip and they released the names and ages of the victims. They also said the guys had mental problems and mental issues that were not being addressed. Yet, he was able to lay his hands on two automatic pistols and an assault rifle and walk into that school.

They started to put pictures up and I had to turn off the set. I have no words.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yet, he was able to lay his hands on two automatic pistols and an assault rifle and walk into that school.They weren't his. They were his mother's. I'm hearing all sorts of reports on how she was a big gun advocate and went shooting with her kids and taught them all how to shoot.

It has started in earnest.

Instead of addressing the real reason why this God-awful tragedy occurred (mental illness), the media is going to focus on guns.

BTW, there was a shooting today at an Alabama hospital...a couple of people were killed.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I just watched a news clip and they released the names and ages of the victims. They also said the guys had mental problems and mental issues that were not being addressed. Yet, he was able to lay his hands on two automatic pistols and an assault rifle and walk into that school.

They started to put pictures up and I had to turn off the set. I have no words.

Wasn't his mother aware of these mental issues? Yet she would take him out shooting? And presumably he had access to her guns, given they were reportedly used in the shooting?

"A local landscaper, however, said Nancy Lanza was a gun collector and showed off a rifle she had recently purchased.

"She told me she'd go target shooting with her boys pretty often," said Dan Holmes, who owns a landscaping business."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/15/us/connecticut-lanza-family-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[PaceAdvantage]

Wasn't his mother aware of these mental issues?Parents aren't good evaluators of their children's shortcomings, especially when it comes to things like mental illness.

However, this Lanza was well known to have problems by both his classmates and his former teachers.

I will state once again that this nation needs to get much tougher on people who are mentally ill. There are so many people who should NOT be walking around in the general public, yet this country emptied many if not most of their mental institutions years ago...just walk around Manhattan for 30 minutes, and you'll come across any number of ticking time bombs...

[Saratoga_Mike]

Parents aren't good evaluators of their children's shortcomings, especially when it comes to things like mental illness.
However, this Lanza was well known to have problems by both his friends and his former teachers.

I will state once again that this nation needs to get much tougher on people who are mentally ill. There are so many people who should NOT be walking around in the general public, yet this country emptied many if not most of their mental institutions years ago...just walk around Manhattan for 30 minutes, and you'll come across any number of ticking time bombs...

You must be right.

Yes, that was a mistake...in the name of compassion (mainly in the late 60s/early 70s).

[nijinski]

Wasn't his mother aware of these mental issues? Yet she would take him out shooting? And presumably he had access to her guns, given they were reportedly used in the shooting?

"A local landscaper, however, said Nancy Lanza was a gun collector and showed off a rifle she had recently purchased.

"She told me she'd go target shooting with her boys pretty often," said Dan Holmes, who owns a landscaping business."

http://www.cnn.com/2012/12/15/us/connecticut-lanza-family-profile/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

I Absolutely agree , a mother knows when something is emotionally off kilterf with her kids . No way should he have ha access to a gun in his home . I'm not letting the father of easy either . Interesting ,we know little about him and his relationship with his son .

On the flip side . if he was going to carry out his sick mission . He would have found another means to do it . Whether it was a bomb or some other
way , his delusional mind was set on a massacre . The guns being there were
an easier opportunity for him .

Reports said his brother labeled him with a personality disorder . How accurate this is , who knows . The fact is , he did have a serious mental issue ., so is it really about the gun laws . No , it's about a place for these people to spend the rest of of there hateful lives to keep everyone else safe .

[nijinski]

Parents aren't good evaluators of their children's shortcomings, especially when it comes to things like mental illness.

However, this Lanza was well known to have problems by both his classmates and his former teachers.

I will state once again that this nation needs to get much tougher on people who are mentally ill. There are so many people who should NOT be walking around in the general public, yet this country emptied many if not most of their mental institutions years ago...just walk around Manhattan for 30 minutes, and you'll come across any number of ticking time bombs...

I can't agree with the first sentemce ., I believe they know and they deny .

[Tape Reader]

Every school should have a gun and someone that is qualified to use it. This guy good have killed every student in the school before the police got there.

Schools have fire extinguishes even though there is a fire department. Shots spread faster than fires.

[Marshall Bennett]

Yet, he was able to lay his hands on two automatic pistols and an assault rifle and walk into that school.

Actually I believe he shot his way in through a window or door.. Other than putting bars on all the windows in schools I don't know what would have stopped him.

[Tape Reader]

Actually I believe he shot his way in through a window or door.. Other than putting bars on all the windows in schools I don't know what would have stopped him.

A bullet !

[Marshall Bennett]

I will state once again that this nation needs to get much tougher on people who are mentally ill. There are so many people who should NOT be walking around in the general public
A local radio talk show host here brought this up today in what turned into quite a lengthy discussion with his listeners. Seems to be an issue the majority of the public simply doesn't want to address, whether it be because it strikes too close to home with someone they're close to or perhaps even themselves. People don't seem willing to label someone else suspect and suggest help. Without the help of the general public all that remains is a police state sort of roundup. Good luck with that, in particular any funding for such.
I see it as a helpless sad situation with much of the blame going towards a social meltdown of sorts. The family unit has decayed, so many children are neglected and not raised properly. Overall moral values have declined sharply. It all adds up and this is too often now the result.
Sad thing is in my humble opinion, it's only going to get worse before it gets better if that's even possible...how do you reform an entire society?

[fast4522]

Somehow I do not think someone armed at every school is the answer. Just a few bits: On D Day way back when our best and brave hit the beach, not all were ready to shoot and kill in combat. No disrespect for those who served but the United States armed forces learned that we as normal human beings are not programmed to kill by nature. About that time and going forward they knew that they had a real problem and needed to include brainwashing into the basic training. In my heart of hearts I know it would be very tough for me to end a life unless the cost was to lose a life. Knowing that and what I do believe about people in general, I think a switch is rocked in some people with the abuse of drugs while in school under peer pressure. I would refer to these misguided people as broken because I do not think the switch can be rocked back inside their head. We as people today do not view others who smoke dope as we should, heck states are making it legal. We as a nation are in decay, there were posts here that people said they would not call the police if a neighbor was selling drugs. Not only the older that I get the more I get square but I know my four corners are getting sharp as a normal Americans should. Again I say look into the mirror people because these United States is in part your doing.

[Tom]

You must be right.

Yes, that was a mistake...in the name of compassion (mainly in the late 60s/early 70s).

I remember that stupid deal.
You don't put mentally ill people on the streets. It is not compassion, it is lunacy. Those who let them out were crazier than the patients.
Living homeless eating rats is compassion to some really weak minded people. It made THEM feel good at the time. Which what mostly happens when stupid do-gooders get their way. This a a tough life - you do no favors when you stick your nose into nature.

The same idiots who did this will now flap their jaws about guns for the next month.THEY are the reason this shit happens - stupid people trying to feel frigging good about themselves.

[Marshall Bennett]

A bullet !
Yeah, hire snipers to perch on rooftops of schools. Good luck with that, too.
Consider a large school would need several armed guards to truly be effective. Otherwise he simply shoots his way in another entrance.
Suppose several "nutty" kids ambush the guard, take his weapon, and use it on a bunch of kids. Who's gonna take the heat for that?
Guns in schools aren't the answer. It's a disaster waiting to happen. Perhaps in some schools it may work, but those probably aren't the ones that really need the protection.
This is a social problem. Find the cause that makes these people snap and fix that. That's the only logical remedy.

[Tape Reader]

I see it as a helpless sad situation with much of the blame going towards a social meltdown of sorts. The family unit has decayed, so many children are neglected and not raised properly. Overall moral values have declined sharply. It all adds up and this is too often now the result.


Psst! Hollywood. We give awards to movies like Natural born killers.

Grand theft larceny is a big seller for the "child games."

Worst of all is the dumbed down parents that take their kids to see/buy these games for "presents".

It all comes down to product liability:

Sue Hollywood, save the world!

[Robert Goren]

I remember that stupid deal.
You don't put mentally ill people on the streets. It is not compassion, it is lunacy. Those who let them out were crazier than the patients.
Living homeless eating rats is compassion to some really weak minded people. It made THEM feel good at the time. Which what mostly happens when stupid do-gooders get their way. This a a tough life - you do no favors when you stick your nose into nature.

The same idiots who did this will now flap their jaws about guns for the next month.THEY are the reason this shit happens - stupid people trying to feel frigging good about themselves.There seems to be a lot of mentally ill people killing people lately. None of them was even close to being homeless or I believe on any kind of government aid. Only one had anything resembling a political motive. I know somebody will come up with somebody who injured a bunch of people with knives in China or Heaven knows where, but the last bunch in this country, it has been with guns. There reason for that. Guns are best killing machine for the average Joe to use and they are easy to learn to use. You kill more people faster with a gun that almost anything else except a well made bomb made by an expert. If Islamic idiots have taught us anything, a poorly made bomb put together by a fool doesn't do much if any harm. There is a reason armies long ago trade their swords for guns! I am pretty sure we can not keep guns out of the hands of all lunitics, but we can keep it out the hands of some, if we try harder. I don't think that it is too much ask that we try.
The idea of putting armed people in our schools is foolish and very expensive. They would quickly become like the TSA agents and we have even more TSA type stupidity. Do we really want more of that?

[PaceAdvantage]

I can't agree with the first sentemce ., I believe they know and they deny .That's exactly what I was trying to say...thanks for clarifying my thoughts.

[PaceAdvantage]

Psst! Hollywood. We give awards to movies like Natural born killers.

Grand theft larceny is a big seller for the "child games."

Worst of all is the dumbed down parents that take their kids to see/buy these games for "presents".

It all comes down to product liability:

Sue Hollywood, save the world!Blaming Hollywood is as effective as blaming guns.

Hollywood and Guns aren't the problem.

People are the problem. Whether they be mentally ill, or abused or neglected by their parents while children...whatever it is that sets these killers off, it all comes down to PEOPLE.

You don't cure the problem by taking away guns or banning video games or telling Hollywood what it can and can't make...those are the easy "solutions" but really aren't solutions at all.

I hate to say this, but a lot of this boils down to the parent(s) and how they raise their children. Barring being born mentally ill, this is where it all starts. This is the genesis...the building blocks.

And we as a nation must become more vigilant in getting mentally ill people the help they need...be it medication or therapy or institutionalization for however amount of time is needed.

[Tape Reader]

Somehow I do not think someone armed at every school is the answer. Just a few bits: On D Day way back when our best and brave hit the beach, not all were ready to shoot and kill in combat. No disrespect for those who served but the United States armed forces learned that we as normal human beings are not programmed to kill by nature.

With all due respect to our GIs, a parent would tear the eyes out of an assailant trying to kill their child.

[PaceAdvantage]

There seems to be a lot of mentally ill people killing people lately. None of them was even close to being homeless or I believe on any kind of government aid. Only one had anything resembling a political motive. I know somebody will come up with somebody who injured a bunch of people with knives in China or Heaven knows where, but the last bunch in this country, it has been with guns. There reason for that. Guns are best killing machine for the average Joe to use and they are easy to learn to use. You kill more people faster with a gun that almost anything else except a well made bomb made by an expert. If Islamic idiots have taught us anything, a poorly made bomb put together by a fool doesn't do much if any harm. There is a reason armies long ago trade their swords for guns! I am pretty sure we can not keep guns out of the hands of all lunitics, but we can keep it out the hands of some, if we try harder. I don't think that it is too much ask that we try.
The idea of putting armed people in our schools is foolish and very expensive. They would quickly become like the TSA agents and we have even more TSA type stupidity. Do we really want more of that?Your proposal is nothing but a band-aid fix on a problem that needs much more than that. Plus it has the added effect of further eroding our constitutional rights.

And if you want to get cold about it, there just aren't a lot of people that die via gunfire in this country. Oh sure, they certainly make the NEWS...But there are plenty of other more readily available ways to die in everyday life.

More people die by poisoning in the US than by firearm. I bet you wouldn't have thought that, would you? Of course, we all know more people are killed via automobiles compared to guns.

[Stillriledup]

Found this on the wikipedia page of the columbine tragedy:


In May 2002 the Secret Service published a report that examined 37 US school shootings. They had the following findings:

Incidents of targeted violence at school were rarely sudden, impulsive acts.
Prior to most incidents, other people knew about the attacker's idea and/or plan to attack.
Most attackers did not threaten their targets directly prior to advancing the attack.
There is no accurate or useful profile of students who engaged in targeted school violence.
Most attackers engaged in some behavior prior to the incident that caused others concern or indicated a need for help.
Most attackers had difficulty coping with significant losses or personal failures. Moreover, many had considered or attempted suicide.
Many attackers felt bullied, persecuted, or injured by others prior to the attack.
Most attackers had access to and had used weapons prior to the attack.
In many cases, other students were involved in some capacity.
Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most shooting incidents were stopped by means other than law enforcement intervention.[71]

[johnhannibalsmith]

.... They would quickly become like the TSA agents and we have even more TSA type stupidity. Do we really want more of that?

I can't believe that we agree on this particular thought.

[mountainman]

My son has asperger's syndrome, and i wept for the shooter as well as the victims. Evil played no role in this. Just a sad and unspeakable tragedy.

While I know in my heart that shane would never harm himself or others, asperger's people are prone to suicidal thoughts, and shane does sometimes slip into depression. Thus, in the wake of this tragedy, I couldn't help but ask him to reassure me that he never harbors violent thoughts. He simply looked at me with his mirthful, intelligent eyes and and asked "dad, are all normal people alike??" POINT TAKEN.

[PaceAdvantage]

I think it's widely known (or at least it's been reported lately in the wake of this tragedy) that asperger's syndrome is not something thought to make people prone to violence, and although I haven't read much media today, I take it nobody is blaming asperger's on what happened. Or am I wrong on that?

Something else was deeply wrong with this man, obviously.

[FantasticDan]

My son has asperger's syndrome, and i wept for the shooter as well as the victims. Evil played no role in this. Just a sad and unspeakable tragedy.
No link between Asperger's and violence:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/16/sandy-hook-school-shooting-asperger-violence/1772589/

[johnhannibalsmith]

... I couldn't help but ask him to reassure me that he never harbors violent thoughts. ...

Congratulations, you are in the upper 99th percentile of responsible parents. Again, responsible, caring parenting won't stop every incident, but simple interactions like that which you describe are, in my estimation, a crucial and simple component in mitigating the chances of things ending as bleakly as possible.

[mountainman]

I think it's widely known (or at least it's been reported lately in the wake of this tragedy) that asperger's syndrome is not something thought to make people prone to violence, and although I haven't read much media today, I take it nobody is blaming asperger's on what happened. Or am I wrong on that?

Something else was deeply wrong with this man, obviously.

no, not wrong. it just hits home with me. asperger's is a gift in that it can bestow those afflicted with incredible mental powers, but i tend to ignore sometimes that it IS a disability. beyond the tragic aspect of this, i must confess a profound curiosity concerning the shooter's mental state, history, and relationship with his mother. no question that this incident will focus our nation on mental illness.

[badcompany]

No link between Asperger's and violence:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/16/sandy-hook-school-shooting-asperger-violence/1772589/

When something like this happens, it's an indictment of the species as a whole. Does a species that produces someone like this even deserve to exist? So, naturally people try to distance themselves by attributing some sort of disease to the perpetrator.

[PaceAdvantage]

Couple of interesting details of this case are emerging...

One is that Lanza seemed to had taken a big turn for the worse after his parents divorced in 2008.

Then there is this being reported:

Sources close to the investigation also revealed last night that Nancy had recently stopped hosting monthly get-togethers for neighbors in order to look after her increasingly troubled son.

The 50-year-old is thought to have worked as a supply teacher at the elementary school where the shootings took place.

Last night it also emerged Nancy was a member of the Doomsday Preppers movement, which believes people should prepare for end of the world.

Her former sister-in-law Marsha said she had turned her home ‘into a fortress’. She added: ‘Nancy had a survivalist philosophy which is why she was stockpiling guns. She had them for defense.

‘She was stockpiling food. She grew up on a farm in New Hampshire. She was skilled with guns. We talked about preppers and preparing for the economy collapsing.’ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2248782/Adam-Lanza-How-classmates-remember-genius-turned-heartless-killer.html

[FantasticDan]

The 50-year-old is thought to have worked as a supply teacher at the elementary school where the shootings took place.The district Superintendent said Saturday that she did not work at the school.

[PaceAdvantage]

The district Superintendent said Saturday that she did not work at the school.There are a lot of facts that have been reported in error that later either turn out to be true (or not).

I believe Lanza's father was reported murdered along with Lanza's mother, but he is alive and was never confronted by his son during this killing spree.

There was a report of a dead body at the New Jersey home of Lanza's brother, but that turned out to be false as well.

A blessing and a curse of the Internet age...quicker reporting of information, but less accurate as well.

[Marshall Bennett]

Don't have details, but word is another kid was stopped short of blowing up his school auditorium with kids in it yesterday. He then planned to set off explosives at doorway as help arrived.
Seems to be a horrible trend developing whether on a daily, monthly, or whatever means. Society is breeding a mental time-bomb within our public.
I have a very good idea as to one of the major causes, but I won't go into it now. Would only start a battle back and forth here which we don't need right now. Stay tuned none-the-less.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Don't have details,...

http://news.yahoo.com/oklahoma-student-arrested-alleged-school-massacre-plot-191933718.html

[highnote]

I said the same thing after 911 and caught flak for it. More people die of heart disease in a day in the U.S. than die of terrorist attacks. TSA is a waste of money. Gun control is not the answer. The world is a dangerous place and there will always be people who try to kill other people. A better solution is learning and practicing "Situational Awareness". Had the mother of the Newtown Shooter and the School been more aware this tragedy might have been prevented or made less awful.

I will provide some links about situational awareness in my next post.

And if you want to get cold about it, there just aren't a lot of people that die via gunfire in this country. Oh sure, they certainly make the NEWS...But there are plenty of other more readily available ways to die in everyday life.

More people die by poisoning in the US than by firearm. I bet you wouldn't have thought that, would you? Of course, we all know more people are killed via automobiles compared to guns.

[highnote]

I encourage everyone to read the following columns about Situational Awarenes. It could save your life or someone else's.

From what I have read there were red flags that could have been noticed by people who came into contact recently with the Newtown shooter's.


http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20100609_primer_situational_awareness

Regardless of the threat, it is very important to recognize that criminal and terrorist attacks do not materialize out of thin air. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Criminals and terrorists follow a process when planning their actions, and this process has several distinct steps. This process has traditionally been referred to as the "terrorist attack cycle," but if one looks at the issue thoughtfully, it becomes apparent that the same steps apply to nearly all crimes.

Read more: A Primer on Situational Awareness | Stratfor

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/20110810-situational-awareness-how-everyday-citizens-help-make-nation-safe

How to Look for Trouble: A STRATFOR Guide to Protective Intelligence
How to Live in a Dangerous World: A STRATFOR Guide to Protecting Yourself, Your Family and Your Business

Read more: Situational Awareness: How Everyday Citizens Can Help Make a Nation Safe | Stratfor

http://www.stratfor.com/threats_situational_awareness_and_perspective

Though some threats are indeed hyped, the world nonetheless remains a dangerous place. Undoubtedly, at this very moment some people are seeking ways to carry out attacks against targets in the United States. Moreover, terrorism attacks are not the only threat -- far more people are victimized by common criminals. Does this reality mean that people need to live in constant fear and paranoia? Not at all. If people do live that way, those who seek to terrorize them have won. However, by taking a few relatively simple precautions and adjusting their mindsets, people can live less-stressful lives during these uncertain times. One of the keys to personal preparedness and protection is to have a contingency plan in place in the event of an attack or other major emergency. The second element is practicing situational awareness.

Read more: Threats, Situational Awareness and Perspective | Stratfor

http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/practical-guide-situational-awareness

It is important to note that situational awareness -- being aware of one's surroundings and identifying potential threats and dangerous situations -- is more of a mindset than a hard skill. Because of this, situational awareness is not something that can be practiced only by highly trained government agents or specialized corporate security teams. Indeed, it can be exercised by anyone with the will and the discipline to do so. Situational awareness is not only important for recognizing terrorist threats, but it also serves to identify criminal behavior and other dangerous situations.

Read more: A Practical Guide to Situational Awareness | Stratfor

[highnote]

So, the TSA is a waste of money but if the school had been more aware things may have been different? That's absurd.


What is so absurd about it?

TSA detains 12 year old girls in wheel chairs. Now that's absurd.

Everyone can practice situational awareness. Nothing absurd about that concept.

Guns and mental illness do not mix well. This is also not an absurd notion.

[TJDave]

I'm a gun nut. Own dozens of 'em. Much more needs to be done to ensure that crazy people don't have access to guns. I don't know how exactly to go about that but as a former dealer I can state unequivocally that it's way to easy for anyone to acquire weapons and ammunition.

[highnote]

I'm a gun nut. Own dozens of 'em. Much more needs to be done to ensure that crazy people don't have access to guns. I don't know how exactly to go about that but as a former dealer I can state unequivocally that it's way to easy for anyone to acquire weapons and ammunition.


Agree. Family, neighbors, co-workers, friends, etc. need to be pro-active in making sure those with mental illness do not have access to guns. They also need to know that someone with mental could be dangerous to society. 99.99% of the time people with mental illness do not pose any danger, but society still needs to be aware of the potential for danger that could come from anyone -- mentally ill or not.

I don't know what the exact protocol should be, but I do know that practicing situational awareness is a good place to start.

[Tom]

99.99% of the time people with mental illness do not pose any danger,

How many people is .01% of our population?

How many GUNS are out there?
What percentage of all guns ( excepting the ones Obama sold intentionally) have been involved in mass killings?

[highnote]

How many people is .01% of our population?

How many GUNS are out there?
What percentage of all guns ( excepting the ones Obama sold intentionally) have been involved in mass killings?


Maybe .01% is too large of an estimate. I have no idea what the correct number is. My point is that most people with a mental illness pose no danger -- especially if they are getting treatment. The dangerous ones are are probably more likely to be those who are not getting treatment. And there are probably some who are getting treatment who are still dangerous. And there are probably some who are not getting treatment and who are not dangerous.

[Grits]

Maybe .01% is too large of an estimate. I have no idea what the correct number is. My point is that most people with a mental illness pose no danger -- especially if they are getting treatment. The dangerous ones are are probably more likely to be those who are not getting treatment. And there are probably some who are getting treatment who are still dangerous. And there are probably some who are not getting treatment and who are not dangerous.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Because there's some misinformation in the 8 pages of this thread, gentlemen, I'd like to suggest your reading of this chilling piece written by a mother of a son who is mentally ill. And, after reading the piece, I would spend considerable time reading the comments that follow.

When familiar with the special needs population it is easier to realize that as a society we are failing, miserably, in providing help for some of those who need it most. I began to learn, one day at a time beginning almost 36 years ago--if a condition, if a situation, doesn't effect us, if it doesn't touch us in our own daily life, it is someone else's problem. Not ours. Therefore, we can rarely manage a second thought, much less genuine concern.

The life of a family, or a mother, of a child or adult with special needs, be it mental illness or mental disability, (sometimes, both, as dual diagnosis is not uncommon,) is a complex one, and sadly, quite often, a solitary one.

[highnote]

Great article Grits. Thanks for posting.

There used to be a lot more mental hospitals. These were shuttered in the 80s by the Regan administration because they felt local communities should deal with the mental health problems of their citizens in an out-patient setting and that this would save a lot of money. I am not trying to be political about this. This is just a fact. It might even have seemed like a good idea at the time. This lady is absolutely correct that you cannot get help for a person with a mental illness unless they commit a crime. Having to wait until a person commits a crime before they can get help with their illness is ridiculous!

Like it or not, better treatment facilities are needed for people with mental illness. It is not fair for the rest of society to have to be put at risk of injury from people with mental illnesses.

Prison is no place for a person with a mental illness. Prisons are not equipped and staffed to deal with two distinct populations of people. People with mental illness are usually not criminals. But what happens is that people with mentall illness eventually become so incapicated that they commit a crime and then there is no alternative except jail. Then they may sit in jail for days or weeks waiting for a hearing all the while they are left untreated.

Our system has become not much better than in medieval times when the mentally ill were locked away in a tower.

The worst part is that many individuals are treatable and can become productive members of society.

[thaskalos]

My son has asperger's syndrome, and i wept for the shooter as well as the victims. Evil played no role in this. Just a sad and unspeakable tragedy.

While I know in my heart that shane would never harm himself or others, asperger's people are prone to suicidal thoughts, and shane does sometimes slip into depression. Thus, in the wake of this tragedy, I couldn't help but ask him to reassure me that he never harbors violent thoughts. He simply looked at me with his mirthful, intelligent eyes and and asked "dad, are all normal people alike??" POINT TAKEN.

Great kid...and a great father too. :ThmbUp:

[Grits]

Great kid...and a great father too. :ThmbUp:

Indeed!!!

[PaceAdvantage]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-illness-conversation_n_2311009.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Because there's some misinformation in the 8 pages of this thread, gentlemen, I'd like to suggest your reading of this chilling piece written by a mother of a son who is mentally ill. And, after reading the piece, I would spend considerable time reading the comments that follow.

When familiar with the special needs population it is easier to realize that as a society we are failing, miserably, in providing help for some of those who need it most. I began to learn, one day at a time beginning almost 36 years ago--if a condition, if a situation, doesn't effect us, if it doesn't touch us in our own daily life, it is someone else's problem. Not ours. Therefore, we can rarely manage a second thought, much less genuine concern.

The life of a family, or a mother, of a child or adult with special needs, be it mental illness or mental disability, (sometimes, both, as dual diagnosis is not uncommon,) is a complex one, and sadly, quite often, a solitary one.Good link...I think it says a lot:

No one wants to send a 13-year old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, “Something must be done.”

I agree that something must be done. It’s time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That’s the only way our nation can ever truly heal.

God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

[Grits]

I think so, too. It made me cry a lot because I know there are so many more mothers out there with sons and daughters like Michael with nowhere to turn. :( :( :(

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
Some of theses Mothers were wrapping (random muslim celebration*) present, baking cookies, hanging decorations, planning visits to Grandma's for dinner......now they have to go pick up the bodies of their babies.
It doesn't get any worse than this.

*edited out Christmas for effect.

Okay, now that most everyone has gotten over the initial extreme sensitivities to discussing the issue and we have multiple threads on a variety of angles, I'm going to pick on Tom's post here (partly because I'll probably get a good reply and I don't think he'll take it personally like another might), but it could just as easily be any number of posts justifiably expressing the distinction of inexplicable horror when it is children being slayed.

What about those roughly 200 (10 Lanzas) children (depending on whose unverifiable numbers you believe since we aren't allowed to know) that have been murdered by drone attacks in Yemen and Pakistan alone? Are they not innocent? Is it worth it? Is it good policy? Are our children special or more innocent? Do the innocent brownish kids deserve to be murdered so we can get that one guy here or that one guy there and keep the guys who actually signed up for war safely behind a desk? Are we actually making things better in the long run by murdering thousands(? - again, we only have estimates) of civilians and especially children? Do you think those people understand why we do it and realize that we are "morally justified"? Or do they vow revenge, ravaged by the lifechanging trauma like these families are suffering with, even if they never had an opinion of the United States before their mother and seven-year-old younger brother were annihilated by a giant rocket from the sky while they were just being a happy family in some hellhole?

Yeah, it's shit stirring at its finest. But, I also have serious problems with the way we casually murder innocent civilians in a non-war and think its fantastic. So, since I know I'm in the extreme minority... like me and Steve R sized minority... now that everyone suddenly is gripped by the devastation that murdering innocent babies creates.... that there just doesn't seem any logical explanation for EVER knowingly doing such a thing... yeah, even though they are funny brown people with a strange religion and stuff, they are still people, even if they have nasty, horrible, murderous people that live amongst them... I mean, hell, I think we can relate...

Is it right?



(Don't jump my shit about tangential political statements if we can have five threads and every major media outlet talking about guns again. More has been talked about this not because of the guns, but because the guns killed innocent BABIES and what kind of monster can EVER do that, something we allegedly find unfathomable.)

[PaceAdvantage]

So you're saying drone attacks have killed 200 or so children (under the age of 10?) in a mere two countries? I'd like to see your source. Not that I don't believe this is a possibility, but I'd like to see the source.

And even if this is true, you think it has something to do with the color of their skin?

You know, I find that last statement more believable, considering how it seems the media in this country tends to pay much more attention to white children with blond hair and blue eyes when they are murdered or abducted than they pay attention to dark skinned, black hair and brown eyed children who meet similar fates.

[johnhannibalsmith]

So you're saying drone attacks have killed 200 or so children (under the age of 10?) in a mere two countries? I'd like to see your source. Not that I don't believe this is a possibility, but I'd like to see the source.

And even if this is true, you think it has something to do with the color of their skin?

You know, I find that last statement more believable, considering how it seems the media in this country tends to pay much more attention to white children with blond hair and blue eyes when they are murdered or abducted than they pay attention to dark skinned, black hair and brown eyed children who meet similar fates.

Impossible to know their ages or even the true numbers because unless Kucinich and Paul got their way, nobody is coming with real numbers that they have. I've seen numbers even higher, I posted a herd of links that covered a range of estimates I think in a post to mostpost about his Nobel savior Obama.

I'll try to find something that you might not find objectionable, but the best I can tell you is that I've tried to filter out some of the extreme estimates and even though I don't necessarily trust any source, the best I can do is look for the ones that aren't overtly extreme in estimates.

As far as brown people - no - not in the literal sense. Just in the sense that they aren't us, and worse, we don't really even associate them as being human on the same level, partly because of their religion and partly because of their association to those cave dwelling terrorists. It was shorthand for how we can disassociate ourselves from people that are very culturally different.

[ArlJim78]

*edited out Christmas for effect.

Okay, now that most everyone has gotten over the initial extreme sensitivities to discussing the issue and we have multiple threads on a variety of angles, I'm going to pick on Tom's post here (partly because I'll probably get a good reply and I don't think he'll take it personally like another might), but it could just as easily be any number of posts justifiably expressing the distinction of inexplicable horror when it is children being slayed.

What about those roughly 200 (10 Lanzas) children (depending on whose unverifiable numbers you believe since we aren't allowed to know) that have been murdered by drone attacks in Yemen and Pakistan alone? Are they not innocent? Is it worth it? Is it good policy? Are our children special or more innocent? Do the innocent brownish kids deserve to be murdered so we can get that one guy here or that one guy there and keep the guys who actually signed up for war safely behind a desk? Are we actually making things better in the long run by murdering thousands(? - again, we only have estimates) of civilians and especially children? Do you think those people understand why we do it and realize that we are "morally justified"? Or do they vow revenge, ravaged by the lifechanging trauma like these families are suffering with, even if they never had an opinion of the United States before their mother and seven-year-old younger brother were annihilated by a giant rocket from the sky while they were just being a happy family in some hellhole?

Yeah, it's shit stirring at its finest. But, I also have serious problems with the way we casually murder innocent civilians in a non-war and think its fantastic. So, since I know I'm in the extreme minority... like me and Steve R sized minority... now that everyone suddenly is gripped by the devastation that murdering innocent babies creates.... that there just doesn't seem any logical explanation for EVER knowingly doing such a thing... yeah, even though they are funny brown people with a strange religion and stuff, they are still people, even if they have nasty, horrible, murderous people that live amongst them... I mean, hell, I think we can relate...

Is it right?



(Don't jump my shit about tangential political statements if we can have five threads and every major media outlet talking about guns again. More has been talked about this not because of the guns, but because the guns killed innocent BABIES and what kind of monster can EVER do that, something we allegedly find unfathomable.)
since you posted here I'll reply here although I don't know if it belongs.

I'm with you on this. Our Nobel peace prize president talked about healing an America who lost its way and gaining world respect when talking about Gitmo and enhanced interrogation, yet he personally supervises a kill list which is carried out on any number of countries soil and you're right, when innocent bystanders or children are killed it barely makes the news.
now we're told we have to do something serious about gun control but a few years ago we were supplying guns to the Mexican drug cartels and hundreds were killed. our government is out of control and all over the map.

[PaceAdvantage]

since you posted here I'll reply here although I don't know if it belongs.

I'm with you on this. Our Nobel peace prize president talked about healing an America who lost its way and gaining world respect when talking about Gitmo and enhanced interrogation, yet he personally supervises a kill list which is carried out on any number of countries soil and you're right, when innocent bystanders or children are killed it barely makes the news.
now we're told we have to do something serious about gun control but a few years ago we were supplying guns to the Mexican drug cartels and hundreds were killed. our government is out of control and all over the map.You can't have it both ways. When Bush was using drone attacks, it was AOK. You can't be criticizing Obama for doing the same thing.

As far as drone attacks go to kill terrorist leaders, I am behind the President 100% on this.

I find it very hard to believe that so many children have been killed as collateral damage in such attacks. Not saying it's not true, it's just that I find it hard to believe. It doesn't make a lot of sense, unless those being targeted make it a habit of being around lots and lots of children each and every time.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Damn it... literally the best source I can find is that videographer that has his link on the HuffPo that was claiming 170 or something last year... that's not who I was looking for, nor the site LivingUnderDrones, which is far too politically bent. :lol: I know I found something that was pretty solid and well-written that made the case for the 150 plus range for children, representing something like 7% of all civilian casualties if I remember. I'll keep digging because now I'm pissed Goooogley has things out of whack.

I saved a PDF not that long ago from Columbia I think that dealt with the entire program much more broadly and didn't get too much into numbers because they were obviously trying to be a bit more scientific and the best they could do was cite a variety of estimates from several sources that showed the disparities. I can attach it if you want, but it's about 100 pages.

I'll concede any number, 20, 200, or 2000, may be off-the mark. If 20 is the absolute minimum and we're ready to turn the world upside down here over that number, to quote the great skate, welpers...


Edited... Dang it, not what I was looking for because it references the same Stanford/NYU report that uses data produced by a group out of City University in London, but at least its an actual news source reporting it... I'll keep poking for a bit more... getting slleeeppy.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/25/world/asia/pakistan-us-drone-strikes/index.html

[xtb]

There used to be a lot more mental hospitals. These were shuttered in the 80s by the Regan administration because they felt local communities should deal with the mental health problems of their citizens in an out-patient setting and that this would save a lot of money.


This is an old myth. The "Community Mental Health Act" of 1963 and the supreme court case of "O'Connor vs Donaldson" in 1975 are big reasons why mental hospitals were closed.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'll keep digging because now I'm pissed Goooogley has things out of whack.You know, I respect your opinion way too much to put you through so much grief.

Your point is well taken, whether it be 200 children or 20 children. One is way too many. All children are innocent, no matter their country of origin or their skin color.

[johnhannibalsmith]

You know, I respect your opinion way too much to put you through so much grief.

Your point is well taken, whether it be 200 children or 20 children. One is way too many. All children are innocent, no matter their country of origin or their skin color.

Well, I regret firing off the number 200 for dramatic effect as it added a zero to the number 20. In reality, if the government claims its closer to 20 and the total wingnuts are adding two zeros, and the investigators that probably have an agenda but are at least trying to be taken seriously are adding one zero - I'm going to generally assume that the total wingnuts are lying and always assume the government is lying. Especially since the two pseudo-Indies in Congress are the only two fighting for more clarity with no success.

That 167 number is the one that stuck with me as being the most believable. Maybe a little high, maybe even a little low, but if the government says that its way off the mark, then it must be close enough for this cynic.

And yes, frankly, my only true point is that we aren't even in any actual war, like usual these days, and are using whatever rules we want to justify our actions with no accountability. War is a necessary evil, to use a cliche, but I'm only becoming less convinced that this is all necessary at all, and it isn't even a war. There is no true comparison between civilian casualties, even children, in war, and what happened on Friday.

But simply put, considering ALL that we know, even the made-up stuff about these civilian deaths in Connecticut, and all the anguish over these civilian deaths in the media, it is sort of depressing to me that we just blow right by all this devastation of families elsewhere without a thought - even applauding it - mainly because I think it just doesn't get the grizzly coverage that the domestic murders get. I'm not passing any judgment, just opening a door.

[highnote]

This is an old myth. The "Community Mental Health Act" of 1963 and the supreme court case of "O'Connor vs Donaldson" in 1975 are big reasons why mental hospitals were closed.


Sounds reasonable. Still, no matter what the reason, it is wrong that society has to wait until a mentally ill person commits a crime before they can get help. And it is wrong that the mentally ill person has to be jailed after the crime and before going to a mental health facility.

The time to get a person checked into a mental health facility is before they commit a crime!

[nijinski]

I would never applaud a death of any child , it's tragic no matter where or who they are .

Many can relate in some ways to these children , it hits home . They look like your son or your niece or neighbor . It's close to your backyard and then you look at your own and the fear , sadness and reality sets in .

It needs to be evaluated as it looks to be a middle to upper middle class
phenomena . Those who fled the inner cities and payed a nice chunk of
money for a safe place to live and raise their kids . Now they worry about
the kids being safe in school . iIt's a big concern .

[Tom]

Maybe .01% is too large of an estimate. I have no idea what the correct number is. My point is that most people with a mental illness pose no danger -- especially if they are getting treatment. The dangerous ones are are probably more likely to be those who are not getting treatment. And there are probably some who are getting treatment who are still dangerous. And there are probably some who are not getting treatment and who are not dangerous.

I'm agreeing with you. With so many people, there are bound to be a few that do this crap. One is too many.

How do you address the .0001% while not stifling the rights of all the rest?

We really need to get all the facts in about this one.....

[HUSKER55]

GUYS and gals, do you mean to tell me that limiting guns will stop homicides. you are playing with numbers. maybe a neighbor to neighbor spat once in a while but normal people don't cause crime and those that do crime know where to go. Hell, even I know where to go to buy a gun off the street. I also know how to turn a 22 into full automatic. (actually, I know of two ways).


I may not know the answer but I am 100% sure that licensing guns or gun control or anything else along those lines will not work. Why? Cause only the honest would put up with that crap. That is people like us. People like us do not commit crime. You are wasting time energy and money.

[badcompany]

I may not know the answer but I am 100% sure that licensing guns or gun control or anything else along those lines will not work. Why? Cause only the honest would put up with that crap. That is people like us. People like us do not commit crime. You are wasting time energy and money.

It's, yet, another example of the Ludwig Von Mises Theory of Government Intervention: that it will produce the opposite of the intended effect.

Tough gun laws create a situation where only the criminals have guns. Is that really what we want?

[Robert Goren]

GUYS and gals, do you mean to tell me that limiting guns will stop homicides. you are playing with numbers. maybe a neighbor to neighbor spat once in a while but normal people don't cause crime and those that do crime know where to go. Hell, even I know where to go to buy a gun off the street. I also know how to turn a 22 into full automatic. (actually, I know of two ways).


I may not know the answer but I am 100% sure that licensing guns or gun control or anything else along those lines will not work. Why? Cause only the honest would put up with that crap. That is people like us. People like us do not commit crime. You are wasting time energy and money. It has been tried in other countries and those countries have generally have lower murder rates.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I think it's widely known (or at least it's been reported lately in the wake of this tragedy) that asperger's syndrome is not something thought to make people prone to violence, and although I haven't read much media today, I take it nobody is blaming asperger's on what happened. Or am I wrong on that?

Something else was deeply wrong with this man, obviously.

What mother brings a kid/young man with Asperger's** to a gun range on a regular basis? This article may be off base (much of the early reporting has been), but it seems to answer that question...

"Nancy Lanza portrayed as 'survivalist' who stockpiled food, water and guns
She was shot four times in the head, possibly as she slept, by her son
Collection of guns included handguns, assault rifle and two hunting rifles
Son Adam was reclusive, spending most of his time in adjoining bedrooms
Fiercely protective mother insisted he was never left on his own
Moved to Sandy Hook in around 1998 but Mrs Lanza and husband divorced
Funerals for the young victims are to begin today "

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2249185/Nancy-Lanza-Did-paranoid-gun-crazed-mother-trigger-Sandy-Hook-Connecticut-killing-spree.html

**people with Asperger's often suffer from depression - why bring guns into the mix?

[Tom]

Tough gun laws create a situation where only the criminals have guns. Is that really what we want?

We create schools where there are no weapons, no means of defense, no protetion. As we saw Friday, when that happens, it is not good.

I would rather see armed guards, or cops assigned to schools. We have them in some banks, in public buildings, why not where we put our most precious assets?

Why not let teachers, who want to, pack heat? Have special training for them, to teach them how to react.

[fast4522]

As we dive into the strange thoughts of arming teachers or armed guards in schools it becomes time to be real and suggest that with every right we have an equal or greater responsibly that goes with that right. Real gun people know and accept that responsibly. The woman who was the mother of this monster knew upfront that she had a son with problems and she still brought guns into the home, but most stupidly failed to secure them properly. The real problem is that so many are not up to the responsibly of even being a parent or a good neighbor.

[Robert Goren]

As we dive into the strange thoughts of arming teachers or armed guards in schools it becomes time to be real and suggest that with every right we have an equal or greater responsibly that goes with that right. Real gun people know and accept that responsibly. The woman who was the mother of this monster knew upfront that she had a son with problems and she still brought guns into the home, but most stupidly failed to secure them properly. The real problem is that so many are not up to the responsibly of even being a parent or a good neighbor. or a gun owner

[Jay Trotter]

Just got an email from my son where he indicates a memo had just been sent out by the company CEO announcing that four people (2 children & 1 wife passed away and 1 wife survived) connected to their firm were directly involved in the shooting.

So sad how this touches so many.

[Tape Reader]

Just got an email from my son where he indicates a memo had just been sent out by the company CEO announcing that four people (2 children & 1 wife passed away and 1 wife survived) connected to their firm were directly involved in the shooting.

So sad how this touches so many.

Me too, similar. Christmas party canceled as one of the participants sister is being buried that day. Teacher at the school.

[hcap]

As we dive into the strange thoughts of arming teachers or armed guards in schools it becomes time to be real and suggest that with every right we have an equal or greater responsibly that goes with that right. Real gun people know and accept that responsibly. The woman who was the mother of this monster knew upfront that she had a son with problems and she still brought guns into the home, but most stupidly failed to secure them properly. The real problem is that so many are not up to the responsibly of even being a parent or a good neighbor.So only "Real gun people" should have guns?
GUYS and gals, do you mean to tell me that limiting guns will stop homicides. you are playing with numbers. maybe a neighbor to neighbor spat once in a while but normal people don't cause crime and those that do crime know where to go. Hell, even I know where to go to buy a gun off the street. I also know how to turn a 22 into full automatic. (actually, I know of two ways). The answer is yes. fewer guns and gun control have been shown just what you are denying. Not eliminate but REDUCE homicides


ONE MORE TIME........


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/researc...eath/index.html

Harvard Injury Control Research Center
Homicide

citations for each study are listed


1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review)

....Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide..

2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

3. Across states, more guns = more homicide 1 study

4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2nd) study


Also

http://www.statehealthfacts.org/com...p?ind=113&cat=2

Number of Deaths Due to Injury by Firearms per 100,000 Population, 2009

I hate to tell you this guys, but it looks like there is a correlation between red states/more deaths by firearms and blue states/fewer death by firearms.

And

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...nd-gun-control/

Six facts about guns, violence, and gun control

[Steve R]

So only "Real gun people" should have guns?
The answer is yes. fewer guns and gun control have been shown just what you are denying. Not eliminate but REDUCE homicides.[/B]

That's exactly right. The attached chart shows data from 33 of the 34 OECD countries published by the Guardian in the UK. Only the data for Iceland was unavailable. It displays gun ownership vs gun homicides by country rank. Clearly there is a correlation between the average number of guns owned and the homicide rate. The correlation coefficient is about 0.4.

[thaskalos]

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_22209219/text-eulogy-6-year-old-newtown-victim?source=rss

[hcap]

That's exactly right. The attached chart shows data from 33 of the 34 OECD countries published by the Guardian in the UK. Only the data for Iceland was unavailable. It displays gun ownership vs gun homicides by country rank. Clearly there is a correlation between the average number of guns owned and the homicide rate. The correlation coefficient is about 0.4.Careful Steve. The crew here KNOWS your info is worthless because it after all uses Socialist countries to support your thesis. You are obviously wrong. I used info from Harvard, but then again I have been called a Commie for lesser crimes like quoting the Congressional Record
. :cool:

[johnhannibalsmith]

Hey, you won't bother Steve by tagging him with those labels... :D

I'm a bit dejected that my baby killing drone diatribes last night didn't engage Steve's attention so he could maybe point me to some of that data that I couldn't relocate last night... and was too lazy to mess with today.

[PaceAdvantage]

Careful Steve. The crew here KNOWS your info is worthless because it after all uses Socialist countries to support your thesis. You are obviously wrong. I used info from Harvard, but then again I have been called a Commie for lesser crimes like quoting the Congressional Record
. :cool:Here is some more info from Harvard:

There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is
why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate.
Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement
(b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so.**
Since at least 1965, the false assertion that the United States has
the industrialized world’s highest murder rate has been an artifact
of politically motivated Soviet minimization designed to hide the
true homicide rates.

Since well before that date, the Soviet Unionpossessed extremely stringent gun controls that were effectuated by a police state apparatus providing stringent enforcement. So successful was that regime that few Russian civilians now have firearms and very few murders involve them.

Yet, manifest success in keeping its people disarmed did not prevent the Soviet Union from having far and away the highest murder rate in the
developed world.

In the 1960s and early 1970s, the gun‐less Soviet Union’s murder rates paralleled or generally exceeded those
of gun‐ridden America. While American rates stabilized and then
steeply declined, however, Russian murder increased so drasti‐
cally that by the early 1990s the Russian rate was three times
higher than that of the United States. Between 1998‐2004 (the lat‐
est figure available for Russia), Russian murder rates were nearly
four times higher than American rates.

To bear that burden would at the very least
require showing that a large number of nations with more
guns have more death and that nations that have imposed
stringent gun controls have achieved substantial reductions
in criminal violence (or suicide). But those correlations are
not observed when a large number of nations are compared
across the world.

Over a decade ago, Professor Brandon Centerwall of the Uni‐
versity of Washington undertook an extensive, statistically sophis‐
ticated study comparing areas in the United States and Canada to
determine whether Canada’s more restrictive policies had better
contained criminal violence. When he published his results it was
with the admonition:
If you are surprised by [our] finding[s], so [are we]. [We] did
not begin this research with any intent to “exonerate” hand‐
guns, but there it is—a negative finding, to be sure, but a nega‐
tive finding is nevertheless a positive contribution. It directs us
where not to aim public health resources.
150 http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf

[hcap]

The guys simply got published by the Harvard Law School.

Geographic Patterns within Nations


Credentials

* Don B. Kates (LL.B., Yale, 1966) is an American criminologist and constitutional lawyer associated with the Pacific Research Institute, San Francisco. He may be contacted at dbkates@earthlink.net; 360‐666‐2688; 22608 N.E. 269th Ave., Battle Ground,
WA 98604.

** Gary Mauser (Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1970) is a Canadian criminologist and university professor at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC Canada.He may be contacted at www.garymauser.net, mauser@sfu.ca, and 604‐291‐3652.

Big difference between these two and the well known institute I linked to.
The Harvard Injury Control Research Center

BTW, when was this study published?

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW, when was this study published?Since they cite the latest Russian data being 2004, I would assume it was published a little bit after that, as I can find no date on the document itself.

However, why should that matter? They cite evidence that even in a relatively gunless developed nation, the murder rate far outshone the United States during that time (when gun laws here were even less stringent then they are now).

[johnhannibalsmith]

...BTW, when was this study published?

Within the last five years. There are many citations from 2006 and one on page 19 from early 2007, so I would speculate that it was published mid to late-2007, perhaps later.

[hcap]

Since they cite the latest Russian data being 2004, I would assume it was published a little bit after that, as I can find no date on the document itself.

However, why should that matter? They cite evidence that even in a relatively gunless developed nation, the murder rate far outshone the United States during that time (when gun laws here were even less stringent then they are now).Curious that it was published under Harvard Law School's auspices and not the Harvard organization that specializes in these studies. I guess there is always an outlier. Steve posted data from 33 of the 34 OECD countries that correlates with my data. Any studies found that correlate with this study?

But at least your guys have credentials.

When I have more time I will see what else is around and legit.

[highnote]

I'm agreeing with you. With so many people, there are bound to be a few that do this crap. One is too many.

How do you address the .0001% while not stifling the rights of all the rest?

We really need to get all the facts in about this one.....

The problem is, guns are neither good or bad. They're neutral. Mentally ill people and criminals with assault rifles are the problem. I don't think a bunch of new gun laws are the answer.

It seems to me there need to be more hospitals and health care centers built that cater to the mentally ill. The Newtown shooter would have probably had a better life if he had lived in a special facility that gave him the treatment he needed and a safe environment in which to live. A person with his condition probably should not be running around without supervision. His former babysitter said that the mother instructed him to never leave the kid alone for a second -- not even if he had to go to the bathroom. That is a kid with a serious disability. And to think his mother had assault rifles in the house! That is no environment for a severly mentally ill person.

[Tom]

http://southernoklahoma.com/schoolshootings/



History of School Shootings in the United States

A Fairly good list of School Shootings in history..

Not all that new....

[Greybase]

Why not let teachers, who want to, pack heat? Have special training for them, to teach them how to react.
THIS is one of the few real, practical ideas coming out... A State Rep out here in Oregon name Dennis Richardson is getting some coverage. Caught him on CNN today in fact.. Link below to HuffPO article.

Schools can't afford to hire full time Rent A Cops. Budgets have been cut and are being cut further... Maybe the only workable solution is to designate 1 person in a small school, more in a large school. They would be trained by Law Enforcement to respond. Guns would be locked in a safe/ secret location.

Since each responder identity is unknown, and the location of the gun safe is unknown, and it's different for every school... No criminal could easily plan for this. In fact, the very idea might serve to discourage any "shooter" from entering a school since it would be known that "someone" in every school ...IS armed!!

Oregon State Rep. Dennis Richardson - Teachers should have guns (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/17/oregon-state-rep-dennis-richardson-teacher-guns-stopped-connecticut-shooting_n_2317444.html)

[hcap]

Here is an article that examines the various studies for and against gun control.

The majority of carefully examined serious studies have come out on the side for fewer guns and more gun control

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/18/the_answer_is_not_more_guns/

The answer is not more guns
A trendy argument suggests we'll be safer if more people carry guns. It's dangerous, wrong and terrible policy

For instance.

...Daniel Webster, the director of the Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Policy and Research, explained in an interview: “It’s hard to make the case, as some have done, that right-to-carry laws will lead to an enormous increase in violence. That does not appear to be the case. But it also does not appear to be the case that there is any beneficial effect.”

“So if you want to argue that the reason we have so many mass shootings, the reason that the United States has a homicide rate about seven times higher than other developed countries, is because we don’t allow enough concealed carry of firearms, the data just don’t bear that out. And the thought experiment that you do is almost laughable,” Webster added.

...We know, for instance, that the mere presence of a gun inside a house is associated with a nearly fivefold increased risk of suicide and threefold increased risk in homicide, according to a 2004 paper published by Centers for Disease Control researchers in the American Journal of Epidemiology. (That finding has been replicated in numerous studies.)

[fast4522]

Because the truth is this most recent whack job used guns, the next may not. We are living in a time when people intend having their 15 minutes television time are planing to die. Obviously this most recent whack job hatched a plan to inflect damage, the next whack job will hatch something else. A few years ago white powder was being sent to government office buildings, remember that? How about Bill Ayers back in the day as a Weatherman planting bombs. Do you people really think that schools will be the target of the next whack job, I don't think so? This was what a 20 year old degenerate did to us, who knows from what ranks the next will come from? I prefer to be wrong but believe we will be broadsided someplace else. The idea of arming people in schools is crazy.

[hcap]

I don't think so. School shootings have a long history, and give the shooter his few minutes of fame.

Unfortunately the copycat factor is strong

[hcap]

Here’s a map of the world with violent mass shootings. Yes, there have been plenty of problems around the world but you can’t help but notice the concentration of events in the US.

http://americablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Screenshot-50.png

Compiled from:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

Time Line of Worldwide School and Mass Shootings

[Pace Cap'n]

What a coincidence...the most populous country has the most shootings.

Guns are to homicides as knives and forks are to obesity.

[delayjf]

I used info from Harvard

Yea, they're not political. Might as well quote NBC.

[badcompany]

Careful Steve. The crew here KNOWS your info is worthless because it after all uses Socialist countries to support your thesis. You are obviously wrong. I used info from Harvard, but then again I have been called a Commie for lesser crimes like quoting the Congressional Record
. :cool:

Is it not standard operating procedure for Governments to use a tragedy to take away rights from its citizens?

[Robert Goren]

Is it not standard operating procedure for Governments to use a tragedy to take away rights from its citizens?What the rights of those 20 children and 6 adults that died because inadequate gun laws? Did not the government take away their rights by failing to act in what is now an all too apparent danger to us all by mental ill people with guns designed to be used by soldiers in war? This not first time this kind of mass murder has happened? Heck, It is not even the first time it has happened this month. How many more times does it have too happen before action is taken? I mean real action, not just crazy talk about impractical things like putting armed guards at every school, movie theater , shopping mall or where ever the next place is that one of these nuts weighted down automatic and/or semi-automatic guns decides to wreck havoc on innocent people.

[ArlJim78]

according to CNN, after the first 911 calls from the school, first responders arrived 20 MINUTES later. 20 minutes to respond to a call about shots fired in a grade school? If that is true (just because CNN reported it doesn't make it true, if we've learned anything it's not to trust any information from the so-called "most trusted" names in news), then I'd like to see a detailed response timeline showing why it took so long. for something like this minutes can mean life or death.

[Tom]

What the rights of those 20 children and 6 adults that died because inadequate gun laws?

You say tighter gun laws would have prevented this.
This is not a given.
We had an assault rifle ban in 1993 - data shows it did nothing.

Drugs are illegal, Bobby - yet they are everywhere.

How about inadequate protection for the school?
They had a glass door locked and he shot it out.

The fact is, he was the only one armed in the so-called school safe zone.

[sammy the sage]

according to CNN, after the first 911 calls from the school, first responders arrived 20 MINUTES later. 20 minutes to respond to a call about shots fired in a grade school? If that is true (just because CNN reported it doesn't make it true, if we've learned anything it's not to trust any information from the so-called "most trusted" names in news), then I'd like to see a detailed response timeline showing why it took so long. for something like this minutes can mean life or death.

Well the dispatcher 1st had to ASK... :rolleyes:

What phone is this?
then...
Who is this?
then...
Where are you calling from?

alrighty then...we got that straightened out :faint:

What's happenning AGAIN???

you say a shooting...what kind...

who is it?

what's all that screaming about?

are THOSE actual gunshots?

Don't hang-up?

oh yes...we have somebody already dispatched...after they get their donuts on the way...

[Robert Goren]

You say tighter gun laws would have prevented this.
This is not a given.
We had an assault rifle ban in 1993 - data shows it did nothing.

Drugs are illegal, Bobby - yet they are everywhere.

How about inadequate protection for the school?
They had a glass door locked and he shot it out.

The fact is, he was the only one armed in the so-called school safe zone.So we shouldn't have glass windows or doors in our schools. And we should arm our teachers. Those are the crazy ideas. An armed guard at the door would have just gotten the guard killed and prevented nothing. Good guns laws do work somewhat and there are countries that have them to prove it. Once the nut is at the school, mall or whatever with his guns, it is too late. We have stop him before he gets there.

[Tom]

An armed guard at the door would have just gotten the guard killed and prevented nothing.

I'm saying armed guards, but if one were there, doubtful he would have ever tried to get in.

Arming teachers in NOT absurd. It is being done in some of the more intelligent states now. You just don't hand out guns.....there is a process.

http://www.lonsberry.com/writings.cfm?story=3474&go=4



Half the country is against banning guns and the other half is against arming teachers. Politically, neither can be enacted, and efforts to do either will only incite political division and rancor.

So if something has to be done, what should we do?

My suggestion: School resource officers.

[johnhannibalsmith]

What the rights of those 20 children and 6 adults that died because inadequate gun laws? ...

(next post)

...We have stop him before he gets there.
...

I don't get from point A to point B in your logic. Do we need to take away his offensive looking weapon or do we need to stop him before he gets there? Surely taking away his offensive looking weapon alone doesn't stop him before he gets there.

I agree with the conclusion, the second statement for sure. I might agree with the first statement, but it is independent from the second. It certainly doesn't appear to me to be a condition of reaching the conclusion.

Do you want fewer people to die or do you want to stop him from getting there? Which is more important, because lard knows, we only have the attention span and will to deal with one major problem at a time. Considering the benefit of approaching the problem from the perspective of sentence number one and then the benefit of approaching it from sentence number two, and then factoring in the political battles and what would happen in the interim of those battles, which direction would you actually like to see our attention focused on primarily? Taking the offensive gun or stopping him before he gets there?

[Tom]

Taking the offensive gun or stopping him before he gets there?

Or be ready for him when he arrives?

[Robert Goren]

I hope all of you who want to put armed people in our schools are ready to come up with the dollars to do it because it going to be expensive, very expensive.

[OntheRail]

Ok I've heard he was buzzed in... and that he broke the window to get in. If the latter... back in the day our school had windows that had chicken wire in the glass on the doors... you could not easily defeat this stuff. Now days they have films that can not be breached with a ball bat. If they had either of these might that of given time for Police to arrive? How about a video feed that's monitors the grounds? Car pulls up guy has guns in hand and has to walk or run to the doors... some one could of seen that and had them on the way... add in the wire or film and he may not of made it in.

[highnote]

Is it not standard operating procedure for Governments to use a tragedy to take away rights from its citizens?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/the-police-state-comes-to_b_2321878.html

"[Police are] going to be in SWAT gear and have AR-15s around their neck," Stovall said. "If you're out walking, we're going to stop you, ask why you're out walking, check for your ID."
Stovall said while some people may be offended by the actions of his department, they should not be.

"We're going to do it to everybody," he said. "Criminals don't like being talked to."

Gaskill backed Stovall's proposed actions during Thursday's town hall.

"They may not be doing anything but walking their dog," he said. "But they're going to have to prove it." . . .

[Tom]

I hope all of you who want to put armed people in our schools are ready to come up with the dollars to do it because it going to be expensive, very expensive.

How much is our kid worth?
Do you suppose maybe governments now waste billions of dollars a year?
How many kids could we have protected for the billions lost on Solyndra?
How about we replace the cafeteria staff with guards and let parent be in charge of feeding their own kids?

[highnote]

I hope all of you who want to put armed people in our schools are ready to come up with the dollars to do it because it going to be expensive, very expensive.


It would be expensive to build more mental health facilities, but this is a cost that will have to be borne. Which is more costly -- losing innoncents to violence committed by individuals with mental illness or or building facilities to treat people with mental illness to prevent their potential acts of violence?

Even if assault weapons are banned, there will be a cost. It's called opportunity cost. Opportunity cost is the money lost from potential sales of the weapons and all the goods and services employees of weapon manufacturers will not spend on goods and services.

No matter what, there is going to be a cost. I think it is better to treat the underlying cause -- mental illness, rather than treat the symptoms -- mentally ill people committing violence.

You can ban assault rifles, but there will still be untreated mentally ill people roaming free. Doesn't it make more sense to start with treatment of the individual?

[johnhannibalsmith]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/the-police-state-comes-to_b_2321878.html

Absolutely disgusting. I sincerely hope that I am run over by a herd of loose horses before I'm forced to live in a society like that.

[highnote]

Absolutely disgusting. I sincerely hope that I am run over by a herd of loose horses before I'm forced to live in a society like that.


The article also states:

"Individuals who do not produce identification when asked could be charged with obstructing a governmental operation, according to Stovall."

[Tom]

Naw, we don't need the second amendment.

[johnhannibalsmith]

The article also states:

"Individuals who do not produce identification when asked could be charged with obstructing a governmental operation, according to Stovall."

I don't think this man understands the law cited. Maybe I don't. Good luck proving that someone knowingly is impeding a governmental function by not carrying identification. Those statutes almost always clarify that it exempts anyone that isn't actively or affirmatively interfering with government if they believe to be subject to a search or other conduct by the officer which is unlawful.

[Robert Goren]

It would be expensive to build more mental health facilities, but this is a cost that will have to be borne. Which is more costly -- losing innoncents to violence committed by individuals with mental illness or or building facilities to treat people with mental illness to prevent their potential acts of violence?

Even if assault weapons are banned, there will be a cost. It's called opportunity cost. Opportunity cost is the money lost from potential sales of the weapons and all the goods and services employees of weapon manufacturers will not spend on goods and services.

No matter what, there is going to be a cost. I think it is better to treat the underlying cause -- mental illness, rather than treat the symptoms -- mentally ill people committing violence.

You can ban assault rifles, but there will still be untreated mentally ill people roaming free. Doesn't it make more sense to start with treatment of the individual? At best they are treating the symptoms of mentally ill when they treat them at all. They have no idea what the underlaying cause is of most mental illness. They always site some mysterious chemical imbalance. They have no clue what causes that chemical imbalance or that matter in most cases even exactly what chemicals are out of balance. How well many of treatments of mental illness work is another question! We are along way from having the knowledge to just throw a few drugs at the mentally ill and turn them loose with guns and expect that something bad isn't going happen. I would agree with you if we had good treatments for the mentally ill, but unfortunately in many forms mental illness we don't.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...just throw a few drugs at the mentally ill and turn them loose with guns and expect that something bad isn't going happen. ...

This line pretty much gets to the root of what has to be utterly intentional misrepresentation of the concept being presented.

[highnote]

We are along way from having the knowledge to just throw a few drugs at the mentally ill and turn them loose with guns and expect that something bad isn't going happen.

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not advocating that if we treat the mentally ill in an institutional setting that, once treated, they will be able to return to their communities and live unsupervised in a house full of automatic weapons.

I'm saying that better treatment facilities are needed so that individuals with mental illnesses can get the treatment they need. Currently, a person with a mental illness has to commit a crime before they can be committed to a treatment facility. And after they commit the crime they are often sent to jail and then prison before it is determined that they are mentally incompetent and should be sent to a mental health facility. Jail and prison facilities do not have the right kind of staff to rehabilitate people with mental illness.

[Robert Goren]

I think you misunderstood my point. I am not advocating that if we treat the mentally ill in an institutional setting that, once treated, they will be able to return to their communities and live unsupervised in a house full of automatic weapons.

I'm saying that better treatment facilities are needed so that individuals with mental illnesses can get the treatment they need. Currently, a person with a mental illness has to commit a crime before they can be committed to a treatment facility. And after they commit the crime they are often sent to jail and then prison before it is determined that they are mentally incompetent and should be sent to a mental health facility. Jail and prison facilities do not have the right kind of staff to rehabilitate people with mental illness.At least in Nebraska, a person can be commited if he is found to be a danger to himself or others by the county mental health board. He does not have to commit a crime. I know of a person who has been committed several times. They get him back on his meds and release him. In a few months he goes off his meds and gets himself recommitted. This has happened at least 10 times. He is not a danger as long he is on his meds. He is really scary when he is not.

[fast4522]

There is a huge difference from a challenged person and a physio bastard. Liberal thought is that you can treat both types, this is why you see CVS & Walgreens popping up on every single block. Closer to the truth is that the challenged person is very unlikely to be of any harm to others and does not go around singing the Soprano's song and often more caring than the normal person. The physio bastard is a very rare bird indeed, and while you feel they number in the thousands it is closer to just a small handful world wide. Granted there are the gang banger's, the KKK, the Hell's Angel's, the Latin Kings and who and what has been left out here who are on another scale we are not talking about. Get a grip on your thoughts we are not at the stage we have to arm people in schools, the next place something happens will be just as unthinkable, unlikely, and probably not in this country. But certain to happen and equally horrific to normal law abiding people.

[sammy the sage]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/radley-balko/the-police-state-comes-to_b_2321878.html

Yep...movie "V" vendetta comes to mind...amazing how movies PREDICT the future...20k leagues under the sea...and MANY more :eek:

[hcap]

What a coincidence...the most populous country has the most shootings.

Guns are to homicides as knives and forks are to obesity.
"I used info from Harvard"

Yea, they're not political. Might as well quote NBC.

1-Add up the populations of the countries listed in and around Europe. Don't forget to include Asian Pacific countries like Japan, Australia and New Zealand. Tell me what the rate of all homicides per 100,000 by firearm is.

Guns are to homicides as knives and forks are to obesity
Guns enable 5x the number of homicides of knives.


.................................................. .......................................


2-I sed The he Harvard Injury Control Research Center. Epidemiological studies are the way to analyses this problem. That's what they do and are the gold standard along with CDC. I also used data from the CDC and quoted John Hopkins.

You seem to suffer from Conspiracy on-the-brainitis :)

[elysiantraveller]

1-Add up the populations of the countries listed in and around Europe. Don't forget to include Asian Pacific countries like Japan, Australia and New Zealand. Tell me what the rate of all homicides per 100,000 by firearm is.


Your data is skewed somewhat and not presented honestly. The link between gun ownership and higher homicide rates is marginal at best and certainly not outside any margin where other factors need to be considered. Here is the exact same graph SteveR posted to proper scale using OECD data.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mf67w8pgGe1qgzzqz.png

Source:

Charts Based on Wiki Data (http://georgeoughttohelp.tumblr.com/post/38139814109/gun-ownership-vs-murder-rate-by-country)

[elysiantraveller]

FWIW the murder rate in the United States has also dropped since the AWB in 2004 expired and every year since 2006.

[Greybase]

What the rights of those 20 children and 6 adults that died because inadequate gun laws? Did not the government take away their rights by failing to act in what is now an all too apparent danger ...
OK, what should the government do? Repeal the 2nd Amendment?? A great way to start another Civil War in this country!! There are MILLIONS of these guns already "out there". What do you suggest... have SWAT teams going door to door, and collect them all? Hmmm... Randy Weaver. Ruby Ridge. I agree some action is necessary, just a bit tough to change 200 years of American culture.

How many more times does it have too happen before action is taken? I mean real action, not just crazy talk about impractical things like putting armed guards at every school, movie theater , shopping mall
Before we dismiss ideas as "crazy", what is your solution? What is your cost effective, practical, alternative ?? Again... the idea is to have a designated 1st Responder at each school, with access to a weapon, trained by local Law Enforcement. I agree hiring armed guards is NOT workable or cost effective, in most situations.

So we shouldn't have glass windows or doors in our schools. And we should arm our teachers. Those are the crazy ideas. An armed guard at the door would have just gotten the guard killed and prevented nothing..
Again if you're following the news... the concept is having ONE gun available to a 1st Responder at each school. Even having the gun stashed in a hidden floor safe, it would take just a couple minutes to retrieve a pistol. It is estimated at Sandy Hook the shooter was firing away for well over 10 minutes. IF the Principal was able to retrieve a weapon she likely could have saved most of those kids.

In Oregon, it has been revealed that the Clackamas Mall shooter was interrupted by an armed citizen who waved a pistol, and made eye contact before taking cover. Apparently that spooked the guy after he sprayed his 1st clip... 100 people around that Food Court... it might have been the reason only TWO were murdered here.

[Tape Reader]

I read that some parents are pressing authorities to let them view the crime area. The authorities are reluctant. How/why can this request be denied?

[Robert Goren]

OK, what should the government do? Repeal the 2nd Amendment?? A great way to start another Civil War in this country!! There are MILLIONS of these guns already "out there". What do you suggest... have SWAT teams going door to door, and collect them all? Hmmm... Randy Weaver. Ruby Ridge. I agree some action is necessary, just a bit tough to change 200 years of American culture.


Before we dismiss ideas as "crazy", what is your solution? What is your cost effective, practical, alternative ?? Again... the idea is to have a designated 1st Responder at each school, with access to a weapon, trained by local Law Enforcement. I agree hiring armed guards is NOT workable or cost effective, in most situations.


Again if you're following the news... the concept is having ONE gun available to a 1st Responder at each school. Even having the gun stashed in a hidden floor safe, it would take just a couple minutes to retrieve a pistol. It is estimated at Sandy Hook the shooter was firing away for well over 10 minutes. IF the Principal was able to retrieve a weapon she likely could have saved most of those kids.

In Oregon, it has been revealed that the Clackamas Mall shooter was interrupted by an armed citizen who waved a pistol, and made eye contact before taking cover. Apparently that spooked the guy after he sprayed his 1st clip... 100 people around that Food Court... it might have been the reason only TWO were murdered here.The principal, Dawn Hocksprung, was one of, if not the first victim of the shooter. She would have had no time to retrieve a gun from a place that would not been available to the kids. It is too bad that some posters don't even bother to check the facts before they post a dumb and impossible idea.

[Greybase]

The principal, Dawn Hocksprung, was one of, if not the first victim of the shooter. She would have had no time to retrieve a gun from a place that would not been available to the kids.
From news reports I have read, she was killed after running into the hall, unarmed, and lunging at the shooter.. after he shot his way into the building. Obviously in the proposed scenario, she (or another of the 6 adults killed), would retrieve a gun BEFORE engaging the shooter.

I'm trying to decipher your sentence above. Kids were in classrooms, NOT in the Principal's office. Or other back office areas. The idea being discussed is to have a designated 1st Responder trained, to return fire ASAP.

It is too bad that some posters don't even bother to check the facts before they post a dumb and impossible idea.
Still waiting for your smart, workable, practical idea... got one? :confused:

[highnote]

This message is from the National Alliance on Mental Illness -- Ohio chapter -- http://www.namiohio.org/

(I bolded certain parts -- change at the local level is important -- the feds don't always need to get involved. Mandates from the federal level is what leads to wasted money.)

The NAMI Ohio family grieves for the children and families of Connecticut impacted by the tragedy at Sandy Hook Elementary School.

Despite considerable speculation, there has been no real information as to whether Adam Lanza had a mental illness or if his family sought mental health services. However, with the focus on mental illness, this is a good time to remind the public about the prevalence of mental illness and the need for more services and supports for those living with it every day.

What we can say with certainty is that mental illness exists in every state, every city and every neighborhood in the U.S. One in 4 adults experiences a mental health disorder in a given year. One in 17 lives with a serious mental illness and 1 in 10 children has a serious mental or emotional disorder. Yet fewer than one-third of adults and one-half of children with a diagnosed mental disorder receive mental health services in a given year. There are many reasons for this, including:

• Lack of knowledge about mental illness

• Stigma of mental illness deters people from seeking help

• Individuals and families don’t know that treatment works or where to go for help

• When individuals or families do seek help, the services are frequently not available.

Over a decade ago, the Surgeon General concluded in a report that “the overall contribution of mental disorders to the total level of violence in society is exceptionally small.” However, when violence does occur, it is usually because something has gone terribly wrong in the mental health care system. Either something has fallen short or something hasn’t happened at all.

It is hard to think of any good that might come out of this tragedy. However, we would be remiss if we did not call attention to the mental health crisis our country is facing, to confront hurtful stereotypes, to take steps to learn more about mental illness, and to ensure that people have access to the care and treatment they need.

NAMI Ohio will be requesting an audience with Governor Kasich to discuss the many issues that individuals with mental illness and their families face every day and the NEED FOR CHANGE.

To this end, we recommend the following action:

* The Governor prioritize funding to increase the continuity of housing options for individuals with mental illness, including long term and transitional secure residential care. Too many people with serious mental illness are living on the streets because there are not enough supportive housing options available. Many individuals end up in jail or prison unnecessarily because they have no place to go that has sufficient supervision.

* Allocate additional resources to communities to meet the mental health needs of children and their families. Too many families are still being required to give up custody to get their child into residential treatment. Youth who require a high level of care are winding up in the juvenile justice system, and young people are falling through the cracks as they transition into adulthood.

* Clarify the Ohio Revised Code to give judges the ability to court order outpatient treatment. Because of the ambiguity in Ohio’s statute pertaining to a judge’s ability to court-order outpatient treatment, only a handful of probate court judge’s order outpatient treatment. Other judges believe they are only allowed to court order into the hospital.

* Create a formal mechanism for individuals with mental illness and family members to communicate their needs to their local ADAMH Boards. Their recommendations will lead to real change at the local level.

Violent tragedies should not have to occur before the country realizes that mental health care must be a priority. NAMI Ohio represents thousands of Ohioans living with mental illness. We are parents. We are friends. We are individuals living with these illnesses. We get it. We’ve been there.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Damn it Goren, you deleted your post before I could quote it!

:D

[Robert Goren]

Damn it Goren, you deleted your post before I could quote it!

:D
I delete the previous post because I felt it poorly worded and would be misinterpreted by some. I will say this much. The idea these incidents could prevent by giving another person another gun whether they want it or not is crazy. If I had young kids I would not let them go to school where guns were left unattended no matter how secure the teachers and/or principal think they are. Of all the dumb ideas out there, that is the dumbest. The danger of having guns around a lot of small kids is just asking for tragedy. This from a person who started hunting at 12 and quit at 17 when a friend died in a hunting accident. Sometimes the danger makes it not worth the pleasure even when the people involved are both sane and reasonably knowledgeable.
I do believe that there is a lot of types of guns that should not be available to the general public. They have no use for the general public except for target practice. The risk that one will fall into to hands of a mass murder is too great. We do not now allow people to have a bomb. I know that some fools make them and try to use them, but over a long period of time the number of time the people who die from them is very small when compared to those who die from the legal guns.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I delete the previous post because I felt it poorly worded and would be misinterpreted by some....

I understand, and honestly, this post is much better. There are a lot of things in the revised version that I don't disagree with much, if at all.

[fast4522]

I hope all of you who want to put armed people in our schools are ready to come up with the dollars to do it because it going to be expensive, very expensive.

All too often the liberal response is downright too fast and wrong, even conservatives slip and fall into that trap. For starters putting guns inside the school just seems plain wrong because it is too reactive a solution. Follow with me on this just for a bit for logistics.

I think the police do a fine job as keepers of the peace and are sworn to serve.
That being said I do not see that they actually belong inside the schools because that is "too late for today, and too early for tomorrow".

The solution is easy to have them in cars at the parking area and restrict cars from driving right up to the door of a school. This is a easily managed solution that says Dunkin Donuts is not the police substation and the school is. Inside the school normal personnel who work there would be able to receive calls from units outside monitoring the parking and the walkway from the parking to the school.

This is not a added cost to the community at all, it is just a refocus of assets.
It is perfect for the men and women who are sworn to protect and serve, and in my mind more worthy than the local Wal Mart. We live in a day where you can not please everyone and sometimes because of that no one, but this is how I see this playing out in the long run.

[Tom]

It now appears as though his mother was going to have him committed and he was not happy about it.

He also took specific actions to cover himself, so "snapping" might not be what happened.

[sammy the sage]

All too often the liberal response is downright too fast and wrong, even conservatives slip and fall into that trap. For starters putting guns inside the school just seems plain wrong because it is too reactive a solution. Follow with me on this just for a bit for logistics.

I think the police do a fine job as keepers of the peace and are sworn to serve.

The solution is easy to have them in cars at the parking area and restrict cars from driving right up to the door of a school. This is a easily managed solution that says Dunkin Donuts is not the police substation and the school is. Inside the school normal personnel who work there would be able to receive calls from units outside monitoring the parking and the walkway from the parking to the school.

This is not a added cost to the community at all, it is just a refocus of assets.
It is perfect for the men and women who are sworn to protect and serve, and in my mind more worthy than the local Wal Mart.

Well written...well said...and too DAMN logical...somebody ain't making out W/this solution...never let a good crisis go to waste...so it won't happen in this scenerio :bang: :mad: :(

[Robert Goren]

All too often the liberal response is downright too fast and wrong, even conservatives slip and fall into that trap. For starters putting guns inside the school just seems plain wrong because it is too reactive a solution. Follow with me on this just for a bit for logistics.

I think the police do a fine job as keepers of the peace and are sworn to serve.
That being said I do not see that they actually belong inside the schools because that is "too late for today, and too early for tomorrow".

The solution is easy to have them in cars at the parking area and restrict cars from driving right up to the door of a school. This is a easily managed solution that says Dunkin Donuts is not the police substation and the school is. Inside the school normal personnel who work there would be able to receive calls from units outside monitoring the parking and the walkway from the parking to the school.

This is not a added cost to the community at all, it is just a refocus of assets.
It is perfect for the men and women who are sworn to protect and serve, and in my mind more worthy than the local Wal Mart. We live in a day where you can not please everyone and sometimes because of that no one, but this is how I see this playing out in the long run.As somebody who used off duty police officers, I can assure you there nothing cheap about it. If there is one at the local Walmart or A bar or whatever, Walmart, the bar owner or whomever is paying for it. Right now the local police almost everywhere are stretched to the limit. If you going put an officer in a school and there are a lot of public schools between grade schools, moddle schools and high schools. And then there is bunch more private faith based schools too. In Lincoln, Ne where I live, putting officer in each school would take up about 20% of the the total force. Then there is all the other place where nuts have open fire like movie theater, shopping malls and even a congresswoman's town hall meeting. You are as crazy as one of the shooters if you think you can do it on the cheap.

[highnote]

There are comparisons and contrasts that can be made between Newtown and Waco. There is one that is sticking out in my mind:

In the Waco seige (or massacre, as some call it), 16 children under the age of 10 died. 20 kids died in Newtown. In Waco, Seventy-six men, women and children died in total, but I do not recall Americans being asked to pause for a moment of silence even one time for the Waco victims.

Yet, in contrast, I have been asked to pause for a moment of silence at least three times this week for Newtown victims (which, by the way, is appropriate and meaningful).

Does anyone here recall being asked to pause for a moment of silence for the Waco victims?

When innocent people die en masse should the circumstances under which they died be a factor in whether or not a moment of silence should be requested?

[TJDave]

There are comparisons and contrasts that can be made between Newtown and Waco.

Other than the fact that guns were involved, the two have nothing in common. Those 16 children in Waco were sacrificed by their parents.

[highnote]

Other than the fact that guns were involved, the two have nothing in common. Those 16 children in Waco were sacrificed by their parents.


There is more than one thing in common: Guns, kids under 10 died, adult women died. Probably others similarities could be found.

However, the questions I asked were -- "Do you remember if there was a moment of silence requested for the victims of Waco?" and "When innocent people die en masse should the circumstances under which they died be a factor in whether or not a moment of silence should be requested?"

To your point -- Does the fact that the kids in Waco were sacrificied by their parents automatically disqualify them from receiving a moment of silence?

[PaceAdvantage]

highnote has a point. Those kids who died in Waco WERE innocent victims, just as the kids (and adults) who died in Newtown.

It's a ridiculous notion to think the children who died in Waco were less deserving of the nation's tears simply because their parents put them in that situation.

I'm sure TJDave will tell me that's NOT what he's saying...but yeah...it is...

[hcap]

Totally different situations.

[PaceAdvantage]

Totally different situations.Yes, they are totally different situations, except for one thing. MANY INNOCENT CHILDREN DIED in both.

Yet it seems some children are more innocent than others, considering the nationwide reaction. That's more of a Boxcarian notion, don't you think? That some children could be more innocent than others...

And THAT is as PREPOSTEROUS as one can get.

[hcap]

Every so often you come up short and S_T_R_E_T_C_H things to fit another silly objection. Children die all over the world I agree then children are the common denominator.

So what?

[highnote]

Every so often you come up short and S_T_R_E_T_C_H things to fit another silly objection. Children die all over the world I agree then children are the common denominator.

So what?


So if children die all over the world then why bother having a moment of silence for any of them?

I think perhaps the media plays a very large role in how we interpret these events. Many consumers of media probably allow their emotions to be controlled by the media. We focused on certain aspects of the events in Newton and on different aspects in Waco.

I don't see any difference in the tragedy of the 16 kids under the age of 10 who were killed in the Waco siege compared to the 20 kids who were killed in Newtown except for the total number.

To me, both tragedies are deserving of a moment of silence. Yet, I don't remember there being a moment of silece for the Waco deaths. Maybe there was, but I have forgotten?

Maybe the nation should have a moment of silence once per week to remember all the people who have been killed in these massacres -- Waco, Newtown, Columbine, etc. Maybe if the nation was reminded these senseless acts of violence would disappear.

[elysiantraveller]

The media is calling for a assault weapons ban even though the hcap's data shows they commit less than 2.5% of homicides in this country.

Do you really think facts matter?

[PaceAdvantage]

The media is calling for a assault weapons ban even though the hcap's data shows they commit less than 2.5% of homicides in this country.

Do you really think facts matter?Not in the least.

[hcap]

So if children die all over the world then why bother having a moment of silence for any of them?

.Maybe the nation should have a moment of silence once per week to remember all the people who have been killed in these massacres -- Waco, Newtown, Columbine, etc. Maybe if the nation was reminded these senseless acts of violence would disappear.Maybe we should

..Unless we are remembering Pearl Harbor or 911, we don't have moment of silence for many historical tragedies, but often we have moments of silence for ongoing tragic events

I will agree that the media is milking events for profit. But we need a kick in the ass to do something that has to be done. Gun control in general, including licensing and greater restrictions including high capacity magazines and closing the gun show loophole of zero background checks

The media is calling for a assault weapons ban even though the hcap's data shows they commit less than 2.5% of homicides in this country.

Do you really think facts matter?That should be part of a larger set of restrictions. Hopefully it is a beginning

[PaceAdvantage]

That should be part of a larger set of restrictions. Hopefully it is a beginningOf course it should be... :rolleyes:

Where else could this lead? :bang:

BTW, does Connecticut count as a TOUGH gun law state or an EASY gun law state?

How about the states surrounding it? New York? Massachusetts? Are they EASY gun law states?

Let's all give our heads a collective shake while we figure out the VERY tough questions I just posed... :rolleyes:

[elysiantraveller]

I will agree that the media is milking events for profit. But we need a kick in the ass to do something that has to be done. Gun control in general, including licensing and greater restrictions including high capacity magazines and closing the gun show loophole of zero background checks

That should be part of a larger set of restrictions. Hopefully it is a beginning

I'll don't disagree with you on much here. I'll go over what I think should be done when I have a little more time.

One thing I will say though is the AWB is and was a joke.

[highnote]

..Unless we are remembering Pearl Harbor or 911, we don't have moment of silence for many historical tragedies, but often we have moments of silence for ongoing tragic events

I will agree that the media is milking events for profit.

It is true that we have moments of silence for ongoing tragic events, however, I don't recall a moment of silence for Waco, but perhaps I have forgotten.

They were both tragedies, but I'm not sure the media treated them equally. Maybe the media has become more adept at sensationalizing tragic events since Waco? Or maybe it's the NYC media's proximity to NYC?

As far as recognizing historical tragedies, I remember my father, a WWII vet, feeling hurt when he saw the Vietnam memorial in Washington D.C. He felt that the soldiers who died in WWII should have had a memorial long before the Vietnam memorial was built. So I'm sure other WWII vets feel the same way.

Maybe it just takes our society a while to figure out how to deal with tragic and significant events?

I think what is needed to prevent future mass shootings is a well thought-out plan for prevention, not a knee-jerk reaction.

One problem is that state mental hospitals have been closed. The state mental hospital in Connecticut was closed a couple of decades ago. It was located in Newtown. What if the hospital still existed -- would the mother of the shooter have checked him in to the hospital?

That's a big what-if. However, returning to a system where we have hospitals geared specifically toward the mentally ill might actually be better than the current system where mentally ill people have to commit a crime before they and their families can get the help needed.

[PaceAdvantage]

If the mother was truly on the verge of committing her sick son, then she deserves most if not all of the blame for this tragedy. There is no way her house should have contained one single firearm or round of ammunition. She should have had them stored somewhere far away until he was out of the house...

[highnote]

If the mother was truly on the verge of committing her sick son, then she deserves most if not all of the blame for this tragedy. There is no way her house should have contained one single firearm or round of ammunition. She should have had them stored somewhere far away until he was out of the house...


I think almost everyone agrees the mother made a huge mistake.

The girl who survived said the shooter seemed very angry. What made him so angry?

[nijinski]

While I understand some who have said how difficult it is to raise a child like him . I do understand and I've seen both moderate and severe autistic children who are partly mainstreamed in schools . Their parents have a struggle most will never know . Amazing people , who in many cases , could not afford the extra help needed . In this case , both parents had the means to avail him with the proper care . Both in insurance and income .

I will never understand how the Mom could keep these firearms in the home with him . It was a disaster waiting to happen that unfortunately did .

[Robert Goren]

A few decades ago states started closing mental institutions and went to community based mental health programs. This hailed as a great idea at the time. The problem is/was the funding for the programs never developed at any level. Unless somebody is willing to fund mental programs, more this kind of stuff is going happen at increasing rate. And that doesn't touch the mental problems of returning vets who, for lack of better phrase, have just seen too much. That is another ticking time bomb that no one wants deal with because of costs.

[Robert Fischer]

don't they have some sort of social-coach for kids like this?

Especially if the family has money, you would think some private company would offer such a service.

I don't know where I heard that the mom had just returned from a 4 day vacation? It seems a week in vegas with a social-coach would have done a lot of good with this kid.

[fast4522]

A few decades ago states started closing mental institutions and went to community based mental health programs. This hailed as a great idea at the time. The problem is/was the funding for the programs never developed at any level. Unless somebody is willing to fund mental programs, more this kind of stuff is going happen at increasing rate. And that doesn't touch the mental problems of returning vets who, for lack of better phrase, have just seen too much. That is another ticking time bomb that no one wants deal with because of costs.

You guys are just as thick as they come, there is no more money. Every thing you want has been scrapped because we will not borrow from China to please you. Mid term elections in every President's second term are always a nightmare for the Presidents party, and by then it will be a good idea to push you over the cliff so think about that.

[jdhanover]

A few decades ago states started closing mental institutions and went to community based mental health programs. This hailed as a great idea at the time. The problem is/was the funding for the programs never developed at any level. Unless somebody is willing to fund mental programs, more this kind of stuff is going happen at increasing rate. And that doesn't touch the mental problems of returning vets who, for lack of better phrase, have just seen too much. That is another ticking time bomb that no one wants deal with because of costs.

You are 100% correct. Unfortunately I am learning this as my son approaches adulthood. He is not as severe a case as this kid was (thankfully) but the help really gets sparse once he graduates next year.

A lot of this is priorities - what do we spend $ on? ALL politicians (both sides, for many years) make lots of decisions on spending money that would be better spent here.

[Robert Goren]

You guys are just as thick as they come, there is no more money. Every thing you want has been scrapped because we will not borrow from China to please you. Mid term elections in every President's second term are always a nightmare for the Presidents party, and by then it will be a good idea to push you over the cliff so think about that. It happened during the Reagan years (or before). Mental health was never a federal concern. Its costs were always taken care of by state government. When the states began to close their asylums in the late 1970s and early 1980s, they promised monetary help to local government that were now responsible for mental health. The aid in most states never came.
The responsibility for our return vets should that of the federal government. If we enough money to fight wars, then it is us that should take care of the brave soldiers who fought in them. I realise this a concept completely foreign to to right wing ideologues such as you and Dick Cheney. Just call them fakers you and the hell with them. That was Cheney way and you seem to adopted it.
Never mind the costs of ignoring the problems in both human lives and monetarily when these problems explode in our faces. Just continue ramble on about China owning our debt. That is the new mantra of the far right when faced something they don't want to face. The problems don't go away because you don't want pay to fix them. There are going to be more school shooting with or without armed people at schools. There is going to be more shooting at malls and work places unless we act. That is the truth whether you want to admit it or not. In the mean time, go shoot up a bunch paper targets while shouting your right wing propaganda at the top of your voice. It will take your mind off the real problems this country faces and make you feel better about not dealing with them in any sort of meaningful way.

[elysiantraveller]

Maybe we should

..Unless we are remembering Pearl Harbor or 911, we don't have moment of silence for many historical tragedies, but often we have moments of silence for ongoing tragic events

I will agree that the media is milking events for profit. But we need a kick in the ass to do something that has to be done. Gun control in general, including licensing and greater restrictions including high capacity magazines and closing the gun show loophole of zero background checks

That should be part of a larger set of restrictions. Hopefully it is a beginning

Okay I figured I'd throw out my stance on the issue. First a couple of things regarding the shootings. There really was nothing that could have been done legislatively on the gun side to prevent the most recent shootings in Colorado, Oregon, and Connecticut. The Colorado guy snapped and in both Oregon and Connecticut the guns were stolen. There really isn't anything that the legal system could have done with gun ownership to prevent them.

Changes I would support would be background checks on all firearm sales including private. Retailers could simply charge a fee for processing the transaction and that would be the end of it.

We should have laws in place that if your firearm is used in a crime and hasn't been reported stolen within the first 24 hours it was noticed missing you are to be charged as a accomplice in said crime. Some states may already have these JR would probably know.

Firearm education should be compulsory in public schools.

Those are three I would have no problem seeing implemented. As far as the banning of "Assault weapons" I think its a moronic idea. There really is not such thing as a "assault" weapon its largely a media creation. While it sounds nice there is no way it creates any meaningful prevention as evidenced by the existence of one from 1994-2004 and the fact since its expiring homicide rates are down and "assault" weapons make up probably less than 2 or 1% of homicides. As for limiting the size of magazines again I don't know what purpose that serves, A) I don't think its possible and B) So what a person just carries more magazines. Feel good measures but really not a solution to anything.

Finally, there is the idea of a national firearm registry. I am personally 110% against the creation of such a list but would actually prefer it to just arbitrarily banning things.

Those are some things a gun guy thinks you could do. Again none of these would have prevented the recent shootings but I truly feel there wasn't anything on the firearm side that could have prevented them. You can't legislate crazy away.

[Robert Goren]

Okay I figured I'd throw out my stance on the issue. First a couple of things regarding the shootings. There really was nothing that could have been done legislatively on the gun side to prevent the most recent shootings in Colorado, Oregon, and Connecticut. The Colorado guy snapped and in both Oregon and Connecticut the guns were stolen. There really isn't anything that the legal system could have done with gun ownership to prevent them.

Changes I would support would be background checks on all firearm sales including private. Retailers could simply charge a fee for processing the transaction and that would be the end of it.

We should have laws in place that if your firearm is used in a crime and hasn't been reported stolen within the first 24 hours it was noticed missing you are to be charged as a accomplice in said crime. Some states may already have these JR would probably know.

Firearm education should be compulsory in public schools.

Those are three I would have no problem seeing implemented. As far as the banning of "Assault weapons" I think its a moronic idea. There really is not such thing as a "assault" weapon its largely a media creation. While it sounds nice there is no way it creates any meaningful prevention as evidenced by the existence of one from 1994-2004 and the fact since its expiring homicide rates are down and "assault" weapons make up probably less than 2 or 1% of homicides. As for limiting the size of magazines again I don't know what purpose that serves, A) I don't think its possible and B) So what a person just carries more magazines. Feel good measures but really not a solution to anything.

Finally, there is the idea of a national firearm registry. I am personally 110% against the creation of such a list but would actually prefer it to just arbitrarily banning things.

Those are some things a gun guy thinks you could do. Again none of these would have prevented the recent shootings but I truly feel there wasn't anything on the firearm side that could have prevented them. You can't legislate crazy away. The stats on assault weapon numbers are skewed by the fact most homicides are one or two victims by killed by someone they know. How to stop them is an entirely different question than how stop these mass shooting that have happen recently. It appears that most of the mass murders involve an assault weapon. There are no doubt exceptions which I am sure will be pointed out. All of the mall shooting that I can recall used an assault weapon. You aren't going to get off a couple hundred rounds in few minutes using one of John Wayne's six shooters.

[Robert Goren]

Compulsory fire arm education just isn't going to happen for a lot of reasons.

[Saratoga_Mike]

1) The stats on assault weapon numbers are skewed by the fact most homicides are one or two victims by killed by someone they know.

2) It appears that most of the mass murders involve an assault weapon.

How do you know 1 and 2? Are there FBI stats available?

[Robert Goren]

How do you know 1 and 2? Are there FBI stats available?I am sure there are. You can do a google search for them if you want. Anybody who watches the local news knows that 1 is true. Watching the national news will lead you to believe that 2 is true. If you find FBI stats to prove me wrong, I will admit it. I have been wrong before here and have admitted it. If fact, PA got me to do it last week. But in this case I don't think you will prove me wrong nor am I willing to waste my time trying to prove to me what is obvious. Take your best shot at it, if you wish. Google to your heart's content.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am sure there are. You can do a google search for them if you want. Anybody who watches the local news knows that 1 is true. Watching the national news will lead you to believe that 2 is true. If you find FBI stats to prove me wrong, I will admit it. I have been wrong before here and have admitted it. If fact, PA got me to do it last week. But in this case I don't think you will prove me wrong nor am I willing to waste my time trying to prove to me what is obvious. Take your best shot at it, if you wish. Google to your heart's content.So you just throw stuff out not knowing whether it is fact or fiction, and ask others to prove you wrong? :lol:

Oh, that's right. You have admitted on more than one occasion that you like to press people's buttons...bordering on troll-like... :lol:

[Robert Goren]

Ok, here they are for 2010
http://ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/ezashr/asp/off_display.asp

Row Family Acquaintance Stranger UnknownTotal
2010 15.3% 41.5% 21.0% 22.2% 100.0%