This man is about to die... [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

PaceAdvantage

12-04-2012, 10:10 PM

Much controversy surrounding the NY Post's decision to publish this photo on their front page...

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/04/should-this-subway-photo-have-been-published/

What a nightmare all around...nobody is trying to help this guy...of course you have to worry if you try and help, he'll pull you onto the tracks as well...but it looks like the doomed man could have made it to the other side, knowing the subway system as I do...but he was dazed and confused after being pushed onto the tracks by a demented ****...

So sad...

PaceAdvantage

12-04-2012, 10:18 PM

Interesting comment from a photographer on that NYT blog:

As a serious, if amateur, photographer, and one who is very familiar with the history of photography, the image grabbed me this morning when I saw it. As an image, it is in many ways perfect. It shows the horror of oncoming death. Maybe this is why so many dislike it, we no longer like to see these types of images that show us we are mortal, or what it is like to die a violent death, whether in or out of war. (Look at the toll of our current wars and our history of censoring photos from them).

One thing that the editors must have considered is that the face of the victim is not shown. That makes it just palatable enough for publication, imo

Again, speaking as a photographer, it certainly brings the question of the role of a photojournalist into sharp relief. Do you put down the camera and get involved, or do you steel yourself and get the shot? Consider that if this photographer got this shot, he must have gotten others even less pleasant. No doubt they will be used as evidence in front of a jury, and when the murderer gets an extra long sentence because of the horror of these images, we will be pleased.

Another reason I am glad the photo was published, is it shows how absolutely alone the victim was. Where were the other people who could have helped? Instead of blaming the photographer, let's think about that. Easy to wave at the train operator. Less easy to take direct action. All it would have taken is two average sized males to pull the victim up from the tracks.

nijinski

12-04-2012, 10:38 PM

I personally think it's a horrible image for his family to have deal with and know it's out there in circulation .

thaskalos

12-04-2012, 11:09 PM

What a startling example of the apathy and gross indifference some of us are capable of displaying...even at the most critical times.

A man desperately trying to escape the most gruesome sort of death...and no one anywhere near to help him.

Shocking beyond words...

PaceAdvantage

12-04-2012, 11:16 PM

thaskalos

12-04-2012, 11:23 PM

One has to consider the circumstances. This man was pushed to the tracks by, apparently, a raving lunatic, who was still nearby. Do you not only risk your life trying to save the man, considering he might accidentally pull you down onto the tracks with him, or perhaps the raving lunatic might try and push you in front of the train as well?

It's not so easy to sit back and say someone should have tried to help, given the circumstances...

I couldn't disagree more.

There should have been 5 people right there, at least attempting to pull the man up. Yes, one person would have been risking his own life...but two people might have pulled him up with no trouble.

Not to have even one person close by is unthinkable...IMO.

PaceAdvantage

12-04-2012, 11:56 PM

I couldn't disagree more.

There should have been 5 people right there, at least attempting to pull the man up. Yes, one person would have been risking his own life...but two people might have pulled him up with no trouble.

Not to have even one person close by is unthinkable...IMO.You're discounting the crazy ****er who has already proven he has no problems pushing people onto the tracks. There's a reason there is nobody else in the picture, and it probably doesn't have all to do with the fact that there is a man on the tracks and nobody is rushing to help him.

There have been similar stories in NYC of people who have fallen onto the tracks while drunk or accidentally, and people have saved them...

Overlay

12-04-2012, 11:59 PM

The commentator quoted in post #2 above seems to take the point of view that the photographer was valuing getting his shot over helping the victim. From what I read, the photographer was running toward the victim using the only implement he had (the flash on his camera) in an attempt to alert the conductor of the oncoming train (however ineffectual that effort may have been). The images that he was capturing in the process were incidental to that, as horrifying as they turned out to be (again, according to what I read).

Pace Cap'n

12-05-2012, 12:05 AM

Not to have even one person close by is unthinkable...IMO.

Would help to know how long he was down there before the train showed up.

Robert Fischer

12-05-2012, 12:16 AM

Ideally you have one leader who can order the guy over to the other side , or organize a 2-man pickup.

Apparently the guy was down there over a minute.

I don't blame the photographer, but his story sounds hard to believe. I'm not a photographer, but I can't logically arrange how sprinting towards the train and flashing distress signals results in perfectly centered, perfectly timed shots.

thaskalos

12-05-2012, 12:31 AM

Apparently the guy was down there over a minute.

Criminal...

PaceAdvantage

12-05-2012, 12:34 AM

Criminal...I find it hard to believe that you, as a father, would rush without thinking twice, to save this man all the while knowing there is a raving lunatic nearby who just pushed this person onto the tracks...

I'm not saying you wouldn't...just saying I find it hard to believe you wouldn't think long and hard about it...and there wasn't really time to think long and hard about anything from what I'm reading.

PaceAdvantage

12-05-2012, 12:36 AM

What time of day was it, and approximately how many able-bodied men were on that platform?

PaceAdvantage

12-05-2012, 12:39 AM

thaskalos

12-05-2012, 12:50 AM

I find it hard to believe that you, as a father, would rush without thinking twice, to save this man all the while knowing there is a raving lunatic nearby who just pushed this person onto the tracks...

I'm not saying you wouldn't...just saying I find it hard to believe you wouldn't think long and hard about it...and there wasn't really time to think long and hard about anything from what I'm reading.

Don't get me wrong...I am not exactly the "hero" type.

But there is no way I would have just stood there, as a man was desperately trying to pull himself up from certain death...for over a MINUTE? That's hardly a heroic act.

I can't believe that they didn't report how many people were down there when it happened.

NJ Stinks

12-05-2012, 01:05 AM

The video below shows the two guys arguing before the man was pushed onto the tracks. You can see some people in the background but the station wasn't crowded. It's from the NY Daily News website:

http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?vcid=23906647&freewheel=90051&sitesection=nydailynews

Greybase

12-05-2012, 03:17 AM

Ho Hum, another beautiful day in the Big Apple :cool:

Seriously, ever heard of Kitty Genovese? This kind of stuff has been the popular image of big USA cities - and especially New York City - for 50 years...

I was a baby at the time, but recall hearing about the Genovese case growing up, a story that persisted during the 70s. Woman stabbed to death right in front of dozens of onlookers in Brooklyn. Nobody says or does anything. Keep in mind this was VERY shocking back then. In 2012 ??

Murder of Kitty Genovese NYC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese)

JustRalph

12-05-2012, 05:38 AM

Let me stir the pot

Too bad Bernie Goetz wasn't there.

atlasaxis

12-05-2012, 08:24 AM

Remember Mr. Autrey? Thank God for someone like him, I know Mr. Hollopeter did! :ThmbUp:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/03/nyregion/03life.html

ArlJim78

12-05-2012, 11:07 AM

thaskalos

12-05-2012, 11:52 AM

one part of this story which doesn't pass the smell test is that the photographer was trying to signal the train using his flash. yeah right. how convenient that this frantic heroic effort to signal the train happened to result in a perfectly positioned photo from behind the perspective of the victim.

If there is anything more disturbing than the fact that no one ran to this man's aid, it's that someone stood there taking pictures of the whole thing.

What sort of person claims that his first impulse, at a time like this, was to run towards the train while frashing his camera...in order to warn the conductor? Why not run towards the man...and try to help him off the tracks?

The poor guy was struggling to get himself unto the platform for over a minute; are we suppossed to believe that he never uttered a sound in the meantime...to let the others there know what was going on?

This apathy that New Yorkers have been labeled with may not be a myth after all...

Marshall Bennett

12-05-2012, 12:28 PM

I suppose every human reacts differently in such a dire situation. It's not for me to judge what one is suppose to do or what should have been done.
What I will judge is the Post's decision to publish the photo on its front page. What good does it do? Many more are disrespected than are benefited from doing so. There are avenues on the net I'm sure to pursue this desire to see people about to die, why shove it in the faces of millions that subscribe to a daily newspaper?
Another example of a deteriorating society. Moral values are out the window once again.

ArlJim78

12-05-2012, 01:15 PM

If there is anything more disturbing than the fact that no one ran to this man's aid, it's that someone stood there taking pictures of the whole thing.

What sort of person claims that his first impulse, at a time like this, was to run towards the train while frashing his camera...in order to warn the conductor? Why not run towards the man...and try to help him off the tracks?

The poor guy was struggling to get himself unto the platform for over a minute; are we suppossed to believe that he never uttered a sound in the meantime...to let the others there know what was going on?

This apathy that New Yorkers have been labeled with may not be a myth after all...
couple thoughts;
yes the picture taking is disturbing.
but the rest is just speculation imo. not being there you don't know how this really played out in realtime. was it really as you suspect people standing around totally indifferent to the mans plight? or did it happen quickly with futile efforts to save him. i think it's harsh to pass judgement on people or a city without actually being there and witnessing it.

let's face it, going over that wall is a death sentence. a natural first reaction with a man there and a train coming is to think that going up next to that edge and having the man grab on to you puts YOUR life greatly at risk once he starts grabbing on to your arm what's to stop you from going over? with a bit of time to think maybe they could have made a human chain to yank him out.

if it were my wife or daughter, yeah I know I would do whatever it took at whatever risk to myself. in this situation with a stranger and a train approaching? I think I would be very nervous about going to that edge without being secured by someone/something.

why couldn't they design in some foot inlays/steps in the wall, so that a person who fell or got pushed over had a chance to extricate himself and not be consigned to a death sentence?

thaskalos

12-05-2012, 02:08 PM

couple thoughts;
yes the picture taking is disturbing.
but the rest is just speculation imo. not being there you don't know how this really played out in realtime. was it really as you suspect people standing around totally indifferent to the mans plight? or did it happen quickly with futile efforts to save him. i think it's harsh to pass judgement on people or a city without actually being there and witnessing it.

let's face it, going over that wall is a death sentence. a natural first reaction with a man there and a train coming is to think that going up next to that edge and having the man grab on to you puts YOUR life greatly at risk once he starts grabbing on to your arm what's to stop you from going over? with a bit of time to think maybe they could have made a human chain to yank him out.

if it were my wife or daughter, yeah I know I would do whatever it took at whatever risk to myself. in this situation with a stranger and a train approaching? I think I would be very nervous about going to that edge without being secured by someone/something.

why couldn't they design in some foot inlays/steps in the wall, so that a person who fell or got pushed over had a chance to extricate himself and not be consigned to a death sentence?

You say it's speculation...

Here is a video which shows the scene shortly before the man -- whose face is hidden -- is pushed onto the tracks by the man who is arguing with him.

http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?vcid=23906647&freewheel=90051&sitesection=nydailynews

How far do the other people appear to be from where he is?

It was reported that the man was on the tracks for more than a minute before he was hit by the train. And yet, no one ran to his aid...

ArlJim78

12-05-2012, 02:42 PM

You say it's speculation...

Here is a video which shows the scene shortly before the man -- whose face is hidden -- is pushed onto the tracks by the man who is arguing with him.

http://landing.newsinc.com/shared/video.html?vcid=23906647&freewheel=90051&sitesection=nydailynews

How far do the other people appear to be from where he is?

It was reported that the man was on the tracks for more than a minute before he was hit by the train. And yet, no one ran to his aid...
yes I say it's speculation because that video doesn't show what happened. how long after that did the push occur? were those people in the video background still there when it happened? none of us know the answer.

you say one minute, but in the Times interview I found this,

"At one point, the man said to have shoved Mr. Han came toward Mr. Abbasi, he said, so he backed up against a wall, still flashing his camera. He estimated the victim was on the tracks for 10 or 15 seconds before he was struck"

not a lot of time for any kind of a rescue.

boxcar

12-05-2012, 04:14 PM

This apathy that New Yorkers have been labeled with may not be a myth after all...

It's one of the signs of the times. It's written in scripture that in these last days, the hearts of men will grow cold.

Boxcar

Robert Fischer

12-05-2012, 04:59 PM

"At one point, the man said to have shoved Mr. Han came toward Mr. Abbasi, he said, so he backed up against a wall, still flashing his camera. He estimated the victim was on the tracks for 10 or 15 seconds before he was struck"

:ThmbDown:that looks like it may be more of the same dubious info from the photographer (Mr. Abbasi is the photographer).
Now not only was Abbasi flashing his camera in attempts to warn the driver, he was also according to that story approached by the man who shoved Mr. Han onto the tracks.... , not only that Abbasi claims he only had 10 or 15 seconds... :rolleyes:

Witnesses told police that the man (Han) was on the track a minute - 90seconds before the train came.
"Han had been in a heated exchange with a man — who police described as emotionally disturbed and talking to himself — when he was thrown off the Seventh Avenue platform as other straphangers looked on.

More than a minute — and possibly as long as 90 seconds — elasped before the train slammed into him, a police source said."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...p_ref=new-york (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/04/ki-suk-han-man-fatally-struck-subway-one-minute-tracks_n_2238334.html?utm_hp_ref=new-york)

I don't blame the photographer for filming if he had no idea or way to help. I think even war has a place for photography. However the photographers account of events (desperately flashing distress signals that somehow capture centered photographs :rolleyes:, and now the being approached/cornered by the suspect :rolleyes: but all of it happening within only 15 seconds anyway :rolleyes:.... ) comes across as twisted lies.
Maybe he just seems like a P.O.S. ?
Sometimes a traumatic event can distort the sense of time, and sometimes a traumatic event can cause you to rationalize or justify your actions during the trauma as a coping mechanism. Without actually being a witness I don't know for sure that the photographer is a P.O.S., and it isn't really fair to act like I'm 1000% certain.

I also don't fault the man for selling his photograph and story to the press.

DJofSD

12-05-2012, 09:34 PM

First, I used to carry my camera equipment around with me just about every where I went. On many occasions, I stumbled upon something which resulted in my taking photos. Some times it was tragic circumstances but never anything like a person about to die. Dead bodies, yes, but never anything like the topic of this thread. The point being, I can put myself into the shoes of the photographer and I would defend his actions.

To believe the photographer could have literally lent a hand to save the other man's life assumes too much. And I'll press the point further by saying if the survivors were to sue the photographer for something like wrongful death, I highly doubt they'd win the case.

thaskalos

12-05-2012, 10:09 PM

DJofSD

12-05-2012, 10:16 PM

That's a false dichotomy.

Do you absolutely know the photographer could have saved the man?

What would you say if the photograph had attempted to assist but was also killed?

thaskalos

12-05-2012, 10:26 PM

That's a false dichotomy.

Do you absolutely know the photographer could have saved the man?

What would you say if the photograph had attempted to assist but was also killed?

Well...witness accounts and police reports suggest that the man was on the tracks for 60 to 90 seconds before he was struck by the train...and we also know that there were at least 4-5 more people on the platform at that time.

It would seen to me that, given the circumstances...something more could have been done for this man, than just snapping a few photos.

PaceAdvantage

12-06-2012, 02:41 AM

It's one of the signs of the times. It's written in scripture that in these last days, the hearts of men will grow cold.

BoxcarYou and thaskalos can bite the big apple...there are TONS of stories of New Yorkers acting heroically in a time of great crisis.

How soon everyone forgets the heroes of 9/11.

How soon everyone forgets stories of people coming to the aid of someone who has fallen onto the tracks:

V6SrwTj5dcg

DJofSD

12-06-2012, 10:27 AM

I head on local radio this AM a couple of more facts about this tragic incident. Apparently the man who died had been in yet another fight with his wife over his continued drinking problem. He had left their home an hour earlier and was on the way to get a visa or a passport.

The account I heard on the radio had a couple of claims: there were upwards of a dozen people on the platform when he was pushed, and, he was down on the tracks for about two minutes.

DJofSD

12-06-2012, 10:44 AM

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/06/nyc-subway-push/1750401/

TJDave

12-06-2012, 01:10 PM

I find it hard to believe that you, as a father, would rush without thinking twice, to save this man all the while knowing there is a raving lunatic nearby who just pushed this person onto the tracks...

I'm not saying you wouldn't...just saying I find it hard to believe you wouldn't think long and hard about it...and there wasn't really time to think long and hard about anything from what I'm reading.

Your dog, faithful companion of 10 years and a total stranger are trapped in a burning structure. You have time to save either, not both.

Who will it be?

thaskalos

12-06-2012, 01:38 PM

Your dog, faithful companion of 10 years and a total stranger are trapped in a burning structure. You have time to save either, not both.

Who will it be?

Save either...don't just stand there and take pictures...

elysiantraveller

12-06-2012, 02:09 PM

Save either...don't just stand there and take pictures...

:ThmbUp:

Yep.

OTM Al

12-06-2012, 04:26 PM

With all this said, I too am very surprised nobody rushed to try and pull this man up. It wouldn't be all that hard to do...two guys could easily grab him under the shoulders and yank him up...he apparently wasn't an overly large man...

That's why I question how many people were around at that moment...

Beyond there being a crazy guy there, this is a well known psychological phenomenon in groups. Studies have shown someone is much more likely to help another when he/she is the only person there. When there is a group of people, they all tend to look at each other and do nothing unless a lead individual takes the initiative. Hardwiring in the social animal or some such.

And the Post sucks.

boxcar

12-06-2012, 04:47 PM

You and thaskalos can bite the big apple...there are TONS of stories of New Yorkers acting heroically in a time of great crisis.

How soon everyone forgets the heroes of 9/11.

How soon everyone forgets stories of people coming to the aid of someone who has fallen onto the tracks:

V6SrwTj5dcg

And there are "tons" of stories about people turning a blind eye to people in trouble, too. Don't forget: Most of the heroism on 9/11 came from the first responders.

Most Americans (especially in the large urban areas) are not exactly your "good Samaritan" types.

http://apolyton.net/showthread.php/201325-People-in-the-NE-really-are-cold-hearted

Boxcar

PaceAdvantage

12-06-2012, 10:06 PM

Your dog, faithful companion of 10 years and a total stranger are trapped in a burning structure. You have time to save either, not both.

Who will it be?Man, what a tough one...I would like to be able to say that I wouldn't hesitate to help the stranger, but I know every fiber of my being would be wanting to rescue my dog...

elysiantraveller

12-06-2012, 10:13 PM

Man, what a tough one...I would like to be able to say that I wouldn't hesitate to help the stranger, but I know every fiber of my being would be wanting to rescue my dog...

At 10 my dog will have had a pretty epic life (for a dog) which makes it a fairly easy choice for me.

It was a good question though.

PaceAdvantage

12-06-2012, 10:21 PM

At 10 my dog will have had a pretty epic life (for a dog) which makes it a fairly easy choice for me.

It was a good question though.Yes, I thought the same thing. Can I cop out and say I've never had a dog? Which would be the truth...

I do have a cat though...and the question would still be a heart breaker for me...I know that calls into question my sanity and my humanity, but hey, at least I'm honest.

elysiantraveller

12-06-2012, 10:29 PM

Yes, I thought the same thing. Can I cop out and say I've never had a dog? Which would be the truth...

I do have a cat though...and the question would still be a heart breaker for me...I know that calls into question my sanity and my humanity, but hey, at least I'm honest.

It's tough because they rely on you for everything. Cats are tough though... I would die going into the blaze to save my cat and he would already be outside... Cats are like that though.

Dogs > People

On average IMO. They bring out the best in us.

PhantomOnTour

12-06-2012, 10:40 PM

"In his heart he knows that sometimes a dog is as good as any man"
-John Bell of WSP from the song C Brown (as in Charlie Brown)

thaskalos

12-06-2012, 11:20 PM

Yes, I thought the same thing. Can I cop out and say I've never had a dog? Which would be the truth...

I do have a cat though...and the question would still be a heart breaker for me...I know that calls into question my sanity and my humanity, but hey, at least I'm honest.

It does not call into question your sanity or your humanity.

I have a cat too...and losing him in a fire would devastate me.