Clemens on HOF ballot

[redshift1]

Several former PED users (or maybe all, who knows) on ballot, no way any of them makes the HOF. Bonds, Sosa and Clemens are obvious but Piazza may be a different story.




http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/28/here-is-the-2013-hall-of-fame-ballot/related/

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[OTM Al]

Several former PED users (or maybe all, who knows) on ballot, no way any of them makes the HOF. Bonds, Sosa and Clemens are obvious but Piazza may be a different story.




http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/11/28/here-is-the-2013-hall-of-fame-ballot/related/

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As opposed to the ones already in? Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.

[cj's dad]

As opposed to the ones already in? Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.

I don't know about that Al. Accountability has to start somewhere. I hope.

[OTM Al]

I don't know about that Al. Accountability has to start somewhere. I hope.

I'm not sure what the accountability was for. The sport was never clean, none of them were or even still are. I'll still stand by the claim that Mickey Mantle likely received steroid injections. Guys were popping amphetamines like candy in the 60s and 70s. Those are PEDs. Sholud all the great players from that era be excluded? From the first day you could make money playing a game, guys were doing whatever they could to keep doing it. I don't blame them. I would too. Beats selling cars or whatever else kinda job these guys would get otherwise.

Way I see it, Clemens and Bonds were great players with or without. They should be in. Let history judge them as it will. Sosa and McGuire were not great players without and were pretty one dimentional with. They should not be in.

How bad these things are, I'm not sure. In a way they are miracle drugs, allowing the players to be the best they can be and play through long seasons at near physical peak. Abused, I'm sure they are dangerous like all drugs, but I'm not so sure if they aren't good for the players if properly administered.

As I've always said too, as long as there has been baseball, there has been "cheating" in baseball. Some considered the curve ball cheating in the early days if you can believe that. I guess it just doesn't bother me that much.

[redshift1]

As opposed to the ones already in? Bonds and Clemens will make it eventually.

Not any time soon the overwhelming negative publicity precludes selection for at least a generation. Buster Olney is voting for the aforementioned but he conceded he's in a small minority.

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[rastajenk]

Vote for Pedro! Rose, that is. His transgressions weren't any worse than the current generation of ballotees.

[horses4courses]

Vote for Pedro! Rose, that is. His transgressions weren't any worse than the current generation of ballotees.

I truly hope that happens someday.
Sure hope it's while Pete is alive and kicking, too.

[OTM Al]

I truly hope that happens someday.
Sure hope it's while Pete is alive and kicking, too.

I'll be for it as soon as he tells the truth. He still has not to this day. He'd have been in for a long time now if only he had. His transgressions were far worse BTW. He was altering game outcomes. He did things in had effects not only on the games he bet on but the next days game as well.

[rastajenk]

Way I see it, Clemens and Bonds were great players with or without. They should be in.Was not Pete Rose a great player?

I don't think he'd be in by now if he had come clean; wouldn't have made a bit of difference.

[horses4courses]

His transgressions were far worse BTW. He was altering game outcomes. He did things in had effects not only on the games he bet on but the next days game as well.

Can you prove these statements?

I have met Pete Rose on a number of occasions.
A close friend of mine has spent a fair amount of time with the man.
That doesn't bring me any closer to his transgressions, but I do have some insight on Pete Rose's thoughts concerning his punishment.

Those are strong allegations to make.
You would have to be reading between the lines of any evidence ever produced,
unless you have another private source.

[ElKabong]

I agree with OTM Al on Bonds and Clemens. They were great before PEDs. Clemens was the best RHP I ever saw. Bonds was the best player of his era before he took PEDs, or, made him look like a freak. McGuire and Sosa weren't HOF material until they hit the juice

I'd leave off Bonds and Rocket till the 3rd year....if for nothing else, see what else comes out about them if anything. Same for all the steroid era players.

Side note on Clemens. Watching him in Austin was other-worldly. His soph yr was amazing, his walk to K ratio was unreal. His Jr year he was our 2nd best pitcher during the season (Schiraldi had the better year), yet he sat out the deciding game vs Miss State in a game that determined who would go to the CWS........

Coach Gus(tafson) called on Steve Labay to pitch vs MSU in the 83 regionals, a team of LH batters that included Raffy Palmiero and Will Clark.... Labay, who couldn't break a pane of glass with his fastball, shut down the Bulldogs and we went on to win the CWS that season.....all b/c Clemens was seated in favor of Steve "LaLob" Labay from the Brazosport area. MSU lit up Clemens in game 1, we had to claw thru the losers bracket to get to the Monday game.......Clemens shined in the CWS, pitched in relief to close out the championship game on 2 days rest vs Bama (Dave Madigan led team).......

The guy was amazing his first few yrs in the Mlb. In the very late 90s I had a feeling he hit the roids given his personality change.

[Stillriledup]

I'll be for it as soon as he tells the truth. He still has not to this day. He'd have been in for a long time now if only he had. His transgressions were far worse BTW. He was altering game outcomes. He did things in had effects not only on the games he bet on but the next days game as well.

Pete Rose is a degenerate gambler who bets on more than just baseball. He's an action junkie, he's not looking to 'fix' sporting events for an 'edge'. Problem gamblers just want the action, they dont care about the winning part of things. Pete is a gambler, not an 'investor' who is looking to manipulate a baseball game in order to 'profit'.

[thaskalos]

I can understand the delimma of a lesser player...who has to take steroids in order to secure his place in the major leagues.

But what can I say about a superstar, who elects to take steroids in order to hit the ball 500 feet...instead of only the 450 feet that his natural ability would allow?

Or the best pitcher most of us have ever seen, who sought the help that only steroids could provide...so he could be untouchable...because mere greatness was not enough for him?

BECAUSE they were both great even without steroids...THAT'S why both Bonds and Clemens deserve to be permanently kept out of the HOF. They didn't need to cheat...and yet they did it anyway.

Their blatant disregard for the rules of the game has already gotten them all the wealth they could ask for. But it should end there.

The game's most coveted prize is not for them.

[Robert Goren]

I'm not sure what the accountability was for. The sport was never clean, none of them were or even still are. I'll still stand by the claim that Mickey Mantle likely received steroid injections. Guys were popping amphetamines like candy in the 60s and 70s. Those are PEDs. Sholud all the great players from that era be excluded? From the first day you could make money playing a game, guys were doing whatever they could to keep doing it. I don't blame them. I would too. Beats selling cars or whatever else kinda job these guys would get otherwise.
I don't think steroids even existed when Mantle was playing. 1968 was his last year. One thing was for sure, he drank more than his fair share of alcohol. I don't think anybody ever thought alcohol was a PED unless they were drunk at the time.

[OTM Al]

I don't think steroids even existed when Mantle was playing. 1968 was his last year. One thing was for sure, he drank more than his fair share of alcohol. I don't think anybody ever thought alcohol was a PED unless they were drunk at the time.

Yes they did. They had been around since the 20s. As to Mantle, recall why he fell out of the 1961 HR race. Absess on hip after receiving a "vitamin B" shot from infamous NY doctor known as "Dr Feelgood". The shots were well known to contain Vitamin B as well as amphetamines and steroids. Steroid injections well known to have potential side affects of causing absess. The "proof" is just as substantial to any of the guys who never tested positive in modern days. And of course there were the regular ole greenies.

[OTM Al]

Can you prove these statements?

I have met Pete Rose on a number of occasions.
A close friend of mine has spent a fair amount of time with the man.
That doesn't bring me any closer to his transgressions, but I do have some insight on Pete Rose's thoughts concerning his punishment.

Those are strong allegations to make.
You would have to be reading between the lines of any evidence ever produced,
unless you have another private source.

Not private. They guy that did all the gambling investigations on him used to come on Max Kellerman's show a few years back and flat out said he still wasn't telling the truth. Rose hasn't come clean (again) since then, therefore, he still hasn't told the truth.

[Robert Fischer]

I don't think anybody ever thought alcohol was a PED unless they were drunk at the time.

:D

Personally I don't have a big problem with these guys. In some respects they were a product of their era. However, they did break the rules. The Hall of Fame has a high standard. I don't see Bonds or Clemens getting in for years, maybe ever.

[horses4courses]

Not private. They guy that did all the gambling investigations on him used to come on Max Kellerman's show a few years back and flat out said he still wasn't telling the truth. Rose hasn't come clean (again) since then, therefore, he still hasn't told the truth.

There's no disputing that Pete Rose bet on baseball when he shouldn't have.
Yes, the man should admit it publicly.

To say that he bet on games with a view towards manipulating the outcome for his own profit is a totally different thing. To my knowledge, that accusation is false, and cannot be proved. It is one thing to bet on your own team to win, but to bet against them, and to throw games - that's another story, and I don't think that's Pete Rose.

[OTM Al]

Pete Rose is a degenerate gambler who bets on more than just baseball. He's an action junkie, he's not looking to 'fix' sporting events for an 'edge'. Problem gamblers just want the action, they dont care about the winning part of things. Pete is a gambler, not an 'investor' who is looking to manipulate a baseball game in order to 'profit'.

Didn't say he was fixing per se, but consider this. Even if he did only bet on his team to win (an I do not believe this) he was the one in control of the roster. Say the top starter isn't having a good day and he bet the game. He was in the position to throw whatever releivers he had to get the win, even if he should be resting certain individuals and letting the game go, which is a far better long term strategy in a 162 game season. In doing this, he has further affected the games that follow by having an even weaker staff available. On top of that, the guys taking his action know what he's doing, so it would behoove the to bet on the other team in the next games before the result of the "tainted game" knowing Pete is thowing whatever he has out to win that particular game. It not only affects the game he bet on, but those that follow, so it might as well be a fix for the later games.

[horses4courses]

Didn't say he was fixing per se, but consider this. Even if he did only bet on his team to win (an I do not believe this) he was the one in control of the roster. Say the top starter isn't having a good day and he bet the game. He was in the position to throw whatever releivers he had to get the win, even if he should be resting certain individuals and letting the game go, which is a far better long term strategy in a 162 game season. In doing this, he has further affected the games that follow by having an even weaker staff available. On top of that, the guys taking his action know what he's doing, so it would behoove the to bet on the other team in the next games before the result of the "tainted game" knowing Pete is thowing whatever he has out to win that particular game. It not only affects the game he bet on, but those that follow, so it might as well be a fix for the later games.

The man is not that calculated.
He's a ballplayer - pure and simple.

If it could ever be proved that Pete Rose bet against the team that he was managing at the time then, yes, he should face a lifetime ban from the game, and exclusion from the HOF. I doubt that it ever happened, though.

Also, what you refer to with pitching staff usage amounts to fixing the outcome of a future game.

[OTM Al]

The man is not that calculated.
He's a ballplayer - pure and simple.

If it could ever be proved that Pete Rose bet against the team that he was managing at the time then, yes, he should face a lifetime ban from the game, and exclusion from the HOF. I doubt that it ever happened, though.

Also, what you refer to with pitching staff usage amounts to fixing the outcome of a future game.

All I know is that even after Rose admitted he bet on games his team was in the guy that did the investigation still said he hadn't come completely clean. If you can come up with an alternate for what's left other than having bet against his own team, then perhaps we can agree, but I sure can't think of anything else.

[Pace Cap'n]

When the Game Of The Week had the Reds on during his managerial career anyone who watched would have had little doubt that he had motives other than winning. Even the announcers noticed. Some of the strangest pitching moves ever.

He should definitely be in the Hall, however. What he did as a manager had nothing to do with his stats and his game. Remember how he RAN to first on ball four?

[Stillriledup]

When the Game Of The Week had the Reds on during his managerial career anyone who watched would have had little doubt that he had motives other than winning. Even the announcers noticed. Some of the strangest pitching moves ever.

He should definitely be in the Hall, however. What he did as a manager had nothing to do with his stats and his game. Remember how he RAN to first on ball four?

Maybe he was just a horrible manager. You know that there is at least some precedent that incredible great players don't make great executives, managers, etc.

Also, its up to the players that are put on the field to perform, no matter who Rose uses in the field, those guys are good enough to be on a professional roster, the GM makes most or all of the decisions on which 25 men complete any roster..the GM gives the manager 25 players thru trades, drafts and signings. The manager takes what is given to him and assumes that all 25 guys on that roster are capable MLB players and has no hesitation in using every one of them at any particular time.

[Valuist]

Rose should be in before Clemens and/or Bonds, assuming HE wasn't on steroids as well.

[OTM Al]

Rose should be in before Clemens and/or Bonds, assuming HE wasn't on steroids as well.

I really doubt it. He will be long dead before the day comes if it ever does. And it is his fault alone. He should be there, he was given repeated chances to clear the way to get him there and he didn't take any of them.