Aqueduct Sunday

[MickJ26]

All claimers and state breds. Looks like a Wednesday afternoon card in mid-February, not a pre-Gulfstream Sunday.

[lamboguy]

it is real nice if you find winners!

race 1---#2 EXCLUSIVE BULL

race 4----#4 IRON POWER

[lamboguy]

there is always a caveat, with EXCLUSIVE BULL, she is very fast, but she never worked with a good horse. she is going to go right out of the gate and maybe get the lead, whether she stays on or not is another story. i am guessing that she will be OK. the race is loaded with trainers that can win.

[ten2oneormore]

Who cares what they are it looks like a pretty good betting day with IMO 8 of 9 playable races.As a fan graded stakes are great but as a gambler I can live without the graded stakes where the 4 winners combined averaged about $5.50.

[lamboguy]

there is always a caveat, with EXCLUSIVE BULL, she is very fast, but she never worked with a good horse. she is going to go right out of the gate and maybe get the lead, whether she stays on or not is another story. i am guessing that she will be OK. the race is loaded with trainers that can win.
she got the lead, but was not that good at the end of the race to finish 4th and out of the money

[OTM Al]

All claimers and state breds. Looks like a Wednesday afternoon card in mid-February, not a pre-Gulfstream Sunday.

Seriously?????? I will assume you are simply spending the day trolling the reeds....

[lamboguy]

IRON POWER ran 4th also, raced green, should run better next time.

[MickJ26]

Seriously?????? I will assume you are simply spending the day trolling the reeds....

No, Al. These are the kinds of races I grudgingly accept after the inner track begins, not before. I prefer maiden specials and allowance races (open company) with a stake or two thrown in. They should save these kinds of cards for mid-week, not on a Sunday. Just my opinion. Looks like I'll be playing Hollywood today. Congrats to those who found some winners today.

[the little guy]

I frequently wonder if the people that complain about the "quality" of cards actually pay attention to racing throughout the country on any kind of regular basis.

[OTM Al]

I frequently wonder if the people that complain about the "quality" of cards actually pay attention to racing throughout the country on any kind of regular basis.

Nah, they are just fondly recalling the good ole days when every race was a grade 1 and had 37 runners...oh how we miss the grand ole days of yore. I bet Parx had an awesome card today!

[lamboguy]

New York racing gives you as good a program on a year round basis as anyone in North America these days.

the question is going to be how they will do when Rockingham Park re-opens with a top notch program and the purses increase @ Sulfolk Downs once they get slot machines. when that happens New York racing will face some serious challenges.

[cj]

New York racing gives you as good a program on a year round basis as anyone in North America these days.

the question is going to be how they will do when Rockingham Park re-opens with a top notch program and the purses increase @ Sulfolk Downs once they get slot machines. when that happens New York racing will face some serious challenges.

I find that very hard to believe.

[lamboguy]

I find that very hard to believe.i think new york racing is great

[cj]

i think new york racing is great

I'm talking about the Suffolk/Rockingham part.

[lamboguy]

I'm talking about the Suffolk/Rockingham part. i see now, from what i hear the newly elected governor of New Hampshire wants a first class thoroughbred track in her state along with a casino complex where Rockingham is in Salem, New Hampshire.

years ago the racing at Rockingham was top class in the summer months. when they had a fire there and closed in the late 1960's the big summer thoroughbred meet went to Saratoga. also the top 1 mile harness racing operation shifted over to the Meadowlands from Rockingham.


back in those days, people came from New York to New Hampshire for the summer meet. if history has any bearing on anything and the purse structure is as good or better than Parx, Monmouth, or Maryland racing, Rockingham Park should be able to attract those horses and trainers that would fit the racing program. Lou Smith, the owner of Rockingham in those days came from New York and was able to attract those trainers that were in New York for the summer meet. even though we don't have a Lou Smith today, all that it would take would be money.

[affirmedny]

i see now, from what i hear the newly elected governor of New Hampshire wants a first class thoroughbred track in her state along with a casino complex where Rockingham is in Salem, New Hampshire.

years ago the racing at Rockingham was top class in the summer months. when they had a fire there and closed in the late 1960's the big summer thoroughbred meet went to Saratoga. also the top 1 mile harness racing operation shifted over to the Meadowlands from Rockingham.


back in those days, people came from New York to New Hampshire for the summer meet. if history has any bearing on anything and the purse structure is as good or better than Parx, Monmouth, or Maryland racing, Rockingham Park should be able to attract those horses and trainers that would fit the racing program. Lou Smith, the owner of Rockingham in those days came from New York and was able to attract those trainers that were in New York for the summer meet. even though we don't have a Lou Smith today, all that it would take would be money.


A few questions/comments:

What makes anyone think racing there will be any better than say Delaware Park?

The fire was in 1980 and they were closed until 1984.

Their harness meet was never anywhere near the quality of the Meadowlands. It was more akin to Foxboro.

Uncle Lou Smith was a good guy.

[Valuist]

Who cares what they are it looks like a pretty good betting day with IMO 8 of 9 playable races.As a fan graded stakes are great but as a gambler I can live without the graded stakes where the 4 winners combined averaged about $5.50.

I must be missing all the low payoff, small fields in big stakes. The River City at Churchill got a full field, and a 30-1 winner as well.

[cj]

years ago the racing at Rockingham was top class in the summer months. when they had a fire there and closed in the late 1960's the big summer thoroughbred meet went to Saratoga. also the top 1 mile harness racing operation shifted over to the Meadowlands from Rockingham.


Really, the Rock was bigger than Saratoga? Did you mean in the 1760s?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Really, the Rock was bigger than Saratoga? Did you mean in the 1760s?

It's possible Lambo is correct...

"In the 1957 season, Saratoga average attendance did increase from 13,649 in 1956 to14,919 (including 27,173 for the Travers), but this attendance increase did not last. Attendance at Saratoga did not reach the 1957
level until 1964 when average attendance reached 14,935. From 1958 -1963, average attendance ranged from a low of 13,674 in 1961 to a high of 14,592 in 1963. Saratoga did not break its own attendance mark of 15,380 per day set in 1952 until 1966 when the average attendance reached 16,017."

Oh, Belmont's avg attendance at the time was 23k!

Source: Albany Law School

[cj]

It's possible Lambo is correct...

"In the 1957 season, Saratoga average attendance did increase from 13,649 in 1956 to14,919 (including 27,173 for the Travers), but this attendance increase did not last. Attendance at Saratoga did not reach the 1957
level until 1964 when average attendance reached 14,935. From 1958 -1963, average attendance ranged from a low of 13,674 in 1961 to a high of 14,592 in 1963. Saratoga did not break its own attendance mark of 15,380 per day set in 1952 until 1966 when the average attendance reached 16,017."

Oh, Belmont's avg attendance at the time was 23k!

Source: Albany Law School

You are comparing Saratoga to itself, not Rockingham.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You are comparing Saratoga to itself, not Rockingham.

I was providing context, showing Saratoga attendance was more modest in the late 50s/early 60s despite the fact that the sport was more popular at the time. I couldn't find the Rockingham attendance numbers. I suspect you're right (Saratoga attendance vs Rock in the 60s), but Rockingham had some big purses and big-name jocks in the 60s. I suspect the attendance differential was more narrow than your response implied (i.e., "...the 1760s..").

[lamboguy]

its not even close, Rockingham Park had a much bigger attendance that Saratoga had back in those days. i will get the verification and post it when i find it.

the harness racing was as good as it gets in those days as well.

[the little guy]

Any kind of comparison involving Saratoga's attendance " back in the day " is beyond nonsensical. In those days, the discussion was whether or not Saratoga should even be opened, as downstate attendance dwarfed that meet. To suggest that Rockingham is going to reopen, and somehow have a competitive advantage to Saratoga now, or even any NY track, is borderline insanity.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Any kind of comparison involving Saratoga's attendance " back in the day " is beyond nonsensical. In those days, the discussion was whether or not Saratoga should even be opened, as downstate attendance dwarfed that meet. To suggest that Rockingham is going to reopen, and somehow have a competitive advantage to Saratoga now, or even any NY track, is borderline insanity.

Yes, I think Steve Crist wrote a column in the past few years saying the same thing, and that was the point of my prior post. I believe Crist even pointed out that into the early 1980s you could buy a Victorian on Union for $50k ($750k+ now).

[RXB]

To me, the granular point in the original post is the reference to state-bred races.

In the first four days of the Fair Grounds meet, 19 of the 40 races were restricted to La-breds.

New York is chockful of state-bred races all year but especially in the winter.

My jaw dropped a few weeks ago when I saw a $500,000 purse at Charles Town for a restricted WV-bred race. (The very best of those animals could compete for maybe a $50,000 open stakes purse.) Hands up, anybody who thinks that this is a legitimate use of slots revenue and takeout dollars.

I could go on and on. These restricted mutt races are taking over at many, many tracks. They are a false economy, racing for purses that are ridiculously inflated compared to what they'd earn if they had to run in open company. And they are especially prevalent in racino jurisdictions where slots money is directed to in-state breeders/owners for political purposes. Racing states are increasingly becoming walled off from outside competition.

For all the talk about high takeout and drugs, this is an issue that gets little mention but is an equally serious problem. Politicians and the racing industry, showing their usual degrees of integrity, foresight and business acumen, choose to support the proliferation of restricted state-bred races. In the end, it doesn't matter whether it's an individual company, or an industry, or a nation/state-- when any form of anti-competitive, anti-merit favouritism takes over the allocation of resources to a significant extent, it's game over.

[cj]

I believe Crist even pointed out that into the early 1980s you could buy a Victorian on Union for $50k ($750k+ now).

If that is true, those people should sell NOW!

[Tom]

I stated going to Toga in 1977, for the Alabama, and all I know was that year. I was parked about a half hours walk from the gates, almost literally over the river and through the woods. And a few other things not wisely stepped in.

[cj]

its not even close, Rockingham Park had a much bigger attendance that Saratoga had back in those days. i will get the verification and post it when i find it.

the harness racing was as good as it gets in those days as well.

My point was that means nothing now. Attendance mattered back then, but even so, the racing was nowhere near as good at Rkm as it was at Sar. That was all I was trying to say.

[Saratoga_Mike]

If that is true, those people should sell NOW!

Here's an example: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/91-Union-Ave-Saratoga-Springs-NY-12866/32405164_zpid/

You've been to Saratoga enough (I believe) to know about all the Victorians. Real estate close to the track is fairly expensive vs other parts of town. That said, Saratoga is much more of a yr-round place than it was 30 yrs ago or even 10 yrs ago. As for the $50,000 number, that's what I believe I read in a Crist column sometime in the past few years. I'd bet $10 that was the number he used, but no more than that.

[lamboguy]

My point was that means nothing now. Attendance mattered back then, but even so, the racing was nowhere near as good at Rkm as it was at Sar. That was all I was trying to say.

that's right, but there were plenty of horses that came from New England that would win in New York. today its pretty impossible during the warmer months.

the newly elected governor of New Hampshire says she wants a casino complex and stressed top racing as a priority. if that becomes reality, there is no doubt in my mind that there will be some type of impact on New York racing, they are going to compete for the same horses. there aren't that many good horses or trainers around not to have an impact. the same 10% of the trainers win 90% of all the stake races nationwide.

[rastajenk]

Will the Rock work with Suffolk to create a two-track circuit, or compete with it for horses, fans, etc and try to bury them?

[lamboguy]

Will the Rock work with Suffolk to create a two-track circuit, or compete with it for horses, fans, etc and try to bury them?they are going to raise purses there too, but not like the Rock plans.

Ohio racing could take a turn for the good as well. i have a friend that is going to drop 20 mares in Ohio that have dropped in New York for years. his reasoning was that it will be tougher to win in New York and the money in Ohio will be good enough for him.

[the little guy]

Yes, I think Steve Crist wrote a column in the past few years saying the same thing, and that was the point of my prior post. I believe Crist even pointed out that into the early 1980s you could buy a Victorian on Union for $50k ($750k+ now).


More like mid-70s.

[the little guy]

If that is true, those people should sell NOW!

Saratoga real estate is a lot stronger than you think, especially with the new facility in Malta, which is five miles South. Proximity to the racetrack, in fact, is hardly a deciding factor, though many of the most desirable homes are in that area.

[ten2oneormore]

I must be missing all the low payoff, small fields in big stakes. The River City at Churchill got a full field, and a 30-1 winner as well.

The title of the thread is "Aqueduct Sunday", I was talking about Aqueduct Saturday but I'm sure you knew that.

[MickJ26]

To me, the granular point in the original post is the reference to state-bred races.

In the first four days of the Fair Grounds meet, 19 of the 40 races were restricted to La-breds.

New York is chockful of state-bred races all year but especially in the winter.

My jaw dropped a few weeks ago when I saw a $500,000 purse at Charles Town for a restricted WV-bred race. (The very best of those animals could compete for maybe a $50,000 open stakes purse.) Hands up, anybody who thinks that this is a legitimate use of slots revenue and takeout dollars.

I could go on and on. These restricted mutt races are taking over at many, many tracks. They are a false economy, racing for purses that are ridiculously inflated compared to what they'd earn if they had to run in open company. And they are especially prevalent in racino jurisdictions where slots money is directed to in-state breeders/owners for political purposes. Racing states are increasingly becoming walled off from outside competition.

For all the talk about high takeout and drugs, this is an issue that gets little mention but is an equally serious problem. Politicians and the racing industry, showing their usual degrees of integrity, foresight and business acumen, choose to support the proliferation of restricted state-bred races. In the end, it doesn't matter whether it's an individual company, or an industry, or a nation/state-- when any form of anti-competitive, anti-merit favouritism takes over the allocation of resources to a significant extent, it's game over.


Thank you, RXB. State breds and claimers are the majority of most racing jurisdictions. They have their place and that place is Wednesday through Friday. Saturday and Sunday should be reserved for the higher class horses. Unless the early opening of Gulfstream has taken all the big barns down to Florida earlier than usual and this is all the racing secretary can fill. If that's the case, I'm very disappointed.

[OTM Al]

Thank you, RXB. State breds and claimers are the majority of most racing jurisdictions. They have their place and that place is Wednesday through Friday. Saturday and Sunday should be reserved for the higher class horses. Unless the early opening of Gulfstream has taken all the big barns down to Florida earlier than usual and this is all the racing secretary can fill. If that's the case, I'm very disappointed.

Perhaps then you missed the fact they ran four stakes races on Thursday and Friday, two graded. Holiday and all. But then if it wasn't for complaining, what would most so called horse players do? I don't even know how to play most types of claiming races and I still find the point you are trying to make ludicrous. Just because it is a high end race doesn't mean it should be played and low end races pay just as well as BC races quite often. They are all horses. They have numbers and little men on them and they run counter clockwise on an oval. The same bets are available. You get paid in either case if you win and not if you lose. If you are really that disappointed then you life is full of disappointment, so guess its time you got used to it.

[MickJ26]

Perhaps then you missed the fact they ran four stakes races on Thursday and Friday, two graded. Holiday and all. But then if it wasn't for complaining, what would most so called horse players do? I don't even know how to play most types of claiming races and I still find the point you are trying to make ludicrous. Just because it is a high end race doesn't mean it should be played and low end races pay just as well as BC races quite often. They are all horses. They have numbers and little men on them and they run counter clockwise on an oval. The same bets are available. You get paid in either case if you win and not if you lose. If you are really that disappointed then you life is full of disappointment, so guess its time you got used to it.


You're right, life is full of disappointments. You're right, they are all horses. For a Sunday on the main track meet, the card was poor quality. When the big barns go south for the winter, all we're left with are the cheap claimers and the state breds, for the most part. If Gulfstream was in full swing, then I'd be fine with it, that's just the way it goes in the winter. But, it's not winter yet and we're still on the main track. If you can make money playing these types of horses, more power to you. State breds just aren't "exciting" and I don't play claimers, at least not cheap ones. I'm a snob. If this is the best the racing secretary can come up with, then the early start of Gulfstream is going to have more of an impact than I thought.

[castaway01]

You're right, life is full of disappointments. You're right, they are all horses. For a Sunday on the main track meet, the card was poor quality. When the big barns go south for the winter, all we're left with are the cheap claimers and the state breds, for the most part. If Gulfstream was in full swing, then I'd be fine with it, that's just the way it goes in the winter. But, it's not winter yet and we're still on the main track. If you can make money playing these types of horses, more power to you. State breds just aren't "exciting" and I don't play claimers, at least not cheap ones. I'm a snob. If this is the best the racing secretary can come up with, then the early start of Gulfstream is going to have more of an impact than I thought.

But most weeks don't have holidays on Thursday and Friday, in which case those stakes races could have been run on the weekend. Pretty simple, obvious point you overlooked, or are choosing to overlook, that ends the whole discussion.

[OTM Al]

You're right, life is full of disappointments. You're right, they are all horses. For a Sunday on the main track meet, the card was poor quality. When the big barns go south for the winter, all we're left with are the cheap claimers and the state breds, for the most part. If Gulfstream was in full swing, then I'd be fine with it, that's just the way it goes in the winter. But, it's not winter yet and we're still on the main track. If you can make money playing these types of horses, more power to you. State breds just aren't "exciting" and I don't play claimers, at least not cheap ones. I'm a snob. If this is the best the racing secretary can come up with, then the early start of Gulfstream is going to have more of an impact than I thought.

Well, if you don't play cheap claimers, then why be so excited about Gulfstream? They run cheaper levels than NYRA does. Can't wait for all 8 $6250s they will be running next month alone let alone the plethora of 10K NW2L and NW3Ls.

[MickJ26]

I'm not just talking about stakes races. You're right, it wasn't a "typical" week, it was a holiday weekend, of which Sunday was a part of. If they used up all the good horses on Thursday and Friday and the races didn't fill that may have been scheduled for Sunday, then I stand corrected.

I'm not looking forward to Gulfstream. I'm just using it as an example since NYRA and Gulfstream draw from the same talent pool. When I'm not playing Aqueduct, my winter track of choice is Santa Anita. If opening weekend at Gulfstream has full fields of maiden specials and allowance horses, then I'll have my answer.