USA Politics Cannot Face Facts

[Native Texan III]

Another 4 years for appointment of leaders to USA who along with the electorate would rather bury their heads in irrelevancies than face any of the facts that need facing.

Admiral Lord Nelson at the Battle of Copenhagen famously held his telescope to his blind eye, saying, "I see no ships" before he disobeyed orders to attack. USA today does not even dare raise the telescope to look.


"IMAGINE a presidential candidate who spoke with blunt honesty about American problems, dwelling on measures by which the United States lags its economic peers.

What might this mythical candidate talk about on the stump? He might vow to turn around the dismal statistics on child poverty, declaring it an outrage that of the 35 most economically advanced countries, the United States ranks 34th (http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/pdf/rc10_eng.pdf), edging out only Romania. He might take on educational achievement, noting that this country comes in only 28th in the percentage of 4-year-olds (http://www.oecd.org/edu/CN%20-%20United%20States.pdf) enrolled in preschool, and at the other end of the scale, 14th in the percentage of 25-to-34-year-olds (http://www.oecd.org/edu/CN%20-%20United%20States.pdf) with a higher education. He might hammer on infant mortality (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html), where the United States ranks worse than 48 other countries and territories, or point out that, contrary to fervent popular belief, the United States trails most of Europe, Australia and Canada in social mobility (http://www.oecd.org/tax/publicfinanceandfiscalpolicy/45002641.pdf).

The candidate might try to stir up his audience by flipping a familiar campaign trope: America is indeed No. 1, he might declare — in locking its citizens up, (http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=all&category=wb_poprate) with an incarceration rate far higher than that of the likes of Russia, Cuba, Iran or China; in obesity (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_obe-health-obesity), easily outweighing second-place Mexico and with nearly 10 times the rate of Japan; in energy use (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_usa_per_per-energy-usage-per-person) per person, with double the consumption of prosperous Germany.

~~read the rest at the link~~

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/sunday-review/candidates-and-the-truth-about-america.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&partner=rss&emc=rss

[Steve R]

Nice! Thank you.

[Tom]

“People in this country want the president to be a cheerleader, an optimist, the herald of better times ahead,” says Robert Dallek, the presidential historian. “It’s almost built into our DNA.”

Most of all, we want him to be a leader. But the power of the bully pulpit cannot be ignored. Rah Rah Rah has its place among tangible actions. I have no doubt a candidate who stood up and spoke the truth would bury his cookie cuter opponent.

As far as quality of life, I will hold the USA against any and all other nations.
They sneak IN here, not OUT.

[FantasticDan]

As far as quality of life, I will hold the USA against any and all other nations. They sneak IN here, not OUT.Unless they're Romney polygamists :p

[ArlJim78]

Nice! Thank you.
I'm curious, what exactly do you find "Nice!" about what was posted?

[thaskalos]

I'm curious, what exactly do you find "Nice!" about what was posted?

The Truth is always "Nice"...even if it hurts.

[LottaKash]

The Truth is always "Nice"...even if it hurts.

Well put Thaskalos....."Nice"...

[bigmack]

Unless they're Romney polygamists :p
Just to throw folk off the trail of thinkin' you're constantly playing for one team, fact check ONE link from the left side of the fence or throw out ONE stereotypical nugget about mulatto's/blacks every now & aGain. :ThmbUp:
---

Can ya post ENTIRE articles?

[rastajenk]

What truths were revealed in this piece? World rankings? As if that reflects any kind of reality. I see no "truths" here, just opinion.

[thaskalos]

What truths were revealed in this piece? World rankings? As if that reflects any kind of reality. I see no "truths" here, just opinion.

IMO...the most important truth revealed in the piece was that our leaders KNOW that we "can't handle the truth"...so they don't bother troubling us with it.

Since they KNOW what we want to hear...they choose to offer us empty promises of a rosy future...instead of paying us the compliment of treating us as if we were responsible adults, and describing to us the mess that we currently find ourselves in...and how difficult it will be to get out of it.

Instead of being our "leaders", they have effectively assumed the role of our PARENTS...who told us fairy tales when we were little, so we could go to sleep.

[johnhannibalsmith]

IMO...the most important truth revealed in the piece was that our leaders KNOW that we "can't handle the truth"...so they don't bother troubling us with it.

Since they KNOW what we want to hear...they choose to offer us empty promises of a rosy future...instead of paying us the compliment of treating us like responsible adults, and describing to us the mess that we currently find ourselves in...and how difficult it will be to get out of it.

Instead of being our "leaders", they have effectively assumed the role of our PARENTS...who told us fairy tales when we were little, so we could go to sleep.

Of course, some do actually do this in some capacity or another and are generally met with "fear monger" labels and tin-foil hat monikers. The reality is just a shade deeper - people only selectively want to hear the truths that meet their needs at their moment and politicians tend to do what they must after careful calculation.

[thaskalos]

Of course, some do actually do this in some capacity or another and are generally met with "fear monger" labels and tin-foil hat monikers. The reality is just a shade deeper - people only selectively want to hear the truths that meet their needs at their moment and politicians tend to do what they must after careful calculation.
I agree...and I point the accusing finger at us!

WE are the ones who beg to be lied to.

[ArlJim78]

The Truth is always "Nice"...even if it hurts.
I hate to be the one to tell you but the NYT editorial page is not the place to go if you're seeking the truth. that isn't their mission.

[thaskalos]

I hate to be the one to tell you but the NYT editorial page is not the place to go if you're seeking the truth. that isn't their mission.

I was hoping for something more substantial -- like a rebuttal perhaps -- but thanks anyway...

[Tom]

It was substantial - the Times has a proven history of publishing fiction.
Zero credibility.

[rastajenk]

When an association of like-minded individuals does get together to tackle tough issues with a strong dose of reality, they are usually branded as "radical;" like those crazy radical Tea Partiers, for instance. So any attempt to label all Americans as unwelcoming to The Truth rings hollow with me. Just another worthless broad-brushed generalization.

[thaskalos]

It was substantial - the Times has a proven history of publishing fiction.
Zero credibility.

Would you care to point out the fiction in the piece featured in this thread?

[bigmack]

I was hoping for something more substantial -- like a rebuttal perhaps -- but thanks anyway...
Anyone who knows ANYTHING about those stats (NOT you, & 99% of the general pub) knows they're completely bogus.

I could destroy those infant mortality rates by country in one second by bringing up the fact that MANY nations don't report deaths at birth whereas we report EVERY SINGLE ONE, but that would blow the narrative of the piece that the US SUCKS compared to other countries. :lol:

If someone brought a strong rebuttal, you're not saying you're in a position to defend that erroneous piece, are you? 'Cause if you are, I'll go a few rounds about it with you. I just don't want to waste my time if you're underqualified.

[rastajenk]

Would you care to point out the fiction in the piece featured in this thread?
Here's one: The piece reads like Reagan's Morning in America ad took down Jimmy "Malaise" Carter. But the ad ran in the 2004 cycle, by which time Jimmy was long gone.

[thaskalos]

If someone brought a strong rebuttal, you're not saying you're in a position to defend that erroneous piece, are you? 'Cause if you are, I'll go a few rounds about it with you. I just don't want to waste my time if you're underqualified.

Are you sure that it wouldn't be I who would be wasting my time?

What chance is there that you could put aside your pre-conceived notions long enough for us to have a useful and unbiased discussion?

[bigmack]

Are you sure that it wouldn't be I who would be wasting my time?

What chance is there that you could put aside your pre-conceived notions long enough for us to have a useful and unbiased discussion?
Say WHAT? OK, so what you're saying is that you're intellectually in a position to defend that piece.

Let's go. Start with infant mortality rates... :rolleyes:

[rastajenk]

Better call hcap in, he's big on world rankings.

[thaskalos]

I suppose world rankings are only accurate when they reveal our military might...:rolleyes:

[bigmack]

I suppose world rankings are accurate when they reveal our military might...:rolleyes:
It's clear you're not intellectually 'up' enough on facts to stay afloat in this discussion, so I understand why you post inane comments like that, but let's do this.

As to the UNICEF child poverty by country stats. Also, TOTAL BS:

http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums/n537/themackster1/UnicefsreportonchildpovertyjustdoesntmakesenseTele graphBlogs.png
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/robertcolvile/100161506/despite-the-claims-of-unicef-child-poverty-is-a-result-of-bad-parenting-not-inequality/
-----

I could do this all day with that piece.

SEE, it's not just about partisan CRAP. It's about ACTUALLY being INFORMED.

Give it a try.

[thaskalos]

I'm sorry...I thought that we would actually phrase things in our own words so we could give an indication to the other person of what our opinion on things actually is...and where the other's opinion might be wrong.

When you said that you were "more informed" than I am...I didn't realize that what you meant was that you were more knowledgeable about the different blogs out there.

I thought you were actually going to get into a war of words with me.

Your OWN words...

[bigmack]

I thought you were actually going to get into a war of words with me.

Your OWN words...
Truth be told, many are WAY more qualified to talk nags than matters such as this. You fall in that crowd so I'll be as diplomatic as I can, which ain't much.

The ENTIRE premise of the piece is based on stats that are patently wrong. They are culled from sources who have interest in seeing countries like Canada, US, Britain & others drop in world ranking according to some nerd coming up with factors.

You don't know that, so I don't fault you, but you axed for someone to shoot holes in the piece and now you're saying you want it in certain vernacular.

So we come RIGHT back to my original suspicion. I AM wasting my time.

Get informed, THEN jump into discussions. :ThmbUp:

[thaskalos]

Truth be told, many are WAY more qualified to talk nags than matters such as this. You fall in that crowd so I'll be as diplomatic as I can, which ain't much.

The ENTIRE premise of the piece is based on stats that are patently wrong. They are culled from sources who have interest in seeing countries like Canada, US, Britain & others drop in world ranking according to some nerd coming up with factors.

You don't know that, so I don't fault you, but you axed for someone to shoot holes in the piece and now you're saying you want it in certain vernacular.

So we come RIGHT back to my original suspicion. I AM wasting my time.

Get informed, THEN jump into discussions. :ThmbUp:

Thanks for at least saying that I am somewhat qualified to talk about the nags.

But you are wrong when you say that the "ENTIRE premise of the piece is based on stats that are patently wrong".

Does it matter if the U.S. ranks 24th in child poverty instead of 34th...or that we are worse than 30 countries, when it comes to infant mortality, than the reported 48?

The point of the article is that we have some major problems in this country...and we get very defensive when we are reminded of them. We prefer to be told that we are THE GREATEST...and that the whole world is envious of us in every respect.

The focus of the piece is not on the world rankings...but on our unwillingness to embrace leaders who give us honest appraisals of the conditions under which we live. We prefer rosy promises instead.

The article is right on the money in this regard, IMO...and your refusal to recognize this as the point of the article is proof of that fact.

You cannot argue with the article's main point...so you look to find inaccuracies with the trivial aspects of it...so you can prove yourself right, and the article wrong.

The truth hurts...as they say.

[bigmack]

The truth hurts...as they say.
Funny you should mention that as the reason politicians dumb down everything is that 98% of the electorate hasn't a clue.

I do find it amusing you asking someone to shoot holes in the piece and now backtrack entirely on that notion.

So you want someone to shoot holes in the fact that politicians don't talk of REAL problems? Pardon me if I laugh.

No shame in your game. You're just uninformed.

What makes your position particularly rich is you BLEW A GASKET over Romney saying 47%. :D

[thaskalos]

What makes your position particularly rich is you BLEW A GASKET over Romney saying 47%. :D

I don't remember that... :cool:

[ArlJim78]

I was hoping for something more substantial -- like a rebuttal perhaps -- but thanks anyway...
rebuttal to who, you? your comment to me was something about it's nice to have the truth even though it hurts. did you expect something substantial in response to that?

the thrust of the opinion was that Americans would rather not hear about the really important matters. they just want to hear that America is number one.

of course that's not true at all. The issue is that Americans in general have a different view of what the important issues are than the NYT editorial board.

[Native Texan III]

It was substantial - the Times has a proven history of publishing fiction.
Zero credibility.

Tom,

It does not matter if the "facts" came from NYT or Fox News.
Not that you contradict a single point that NYT have made.
The whole point for "credibility" is do you as a voter know exactly what the candidates stand for over the next 4 years for a whole raft of real issues that face USA. We know Obama would soldier on much the same. We have no clues as to how Romney will actually create a single job or cut a single $ of taxes - he just says he will. Millions overseas can do as good a job as a USA worker at 1/10 th the cost. What they will actually do or not do on the other major issues is totally unknown to the voter and the public do not press them on it. They appear to like living with their delusions about past grandeur.

Unless you address the other real issues then you cannot start to solve them and if we do not then there is a whole world out there who will in competition against us.

[bigmack]

T
Not that you contradict a single point that NYT have made.
Well, technically, they're quotes from nerds at Universities.

Let's start rolling out some of the dung for a closer inspection.

The candidate might try to stir up his audience by flipping a familiar campaign trope: America is indeed No. 1, he might declare
Show me where either candidate said anything like that in either of two debates and listen for it tonight.

Americans demand constant reassurance that their country, their achievements and their values are extraordinary.
This ridiculously inane nonsence according to another ivy tower nerd.

“People in this country want the president to be a cheerleader, an optimist, the herald of better times ahead,” says Robert Dallek, the presidential historian. “It’s almost built into our DNA.
More drivel.

“I think there’s more of a tendency now than in the past to avoid discussion of serious problems,” says Allan J. Lichtman, a political historian at American University. “It has a pernicious effect on our politics and on governing, because to govern, you need a mandate. And you don’t get a mandate if you don’t say what you’re going to do.”
Total crap.

This is a peculiarly American brand of nationalism. “European politicians exercise much greater freedom to address bluntly the uglier social problems,” says Deborah Lea Madsen, professor of American studies at the University of Geneva. An American politician who speaks too candidly about the country’s faults, she went on to say, risks being labeled with that most devastating of epithets: un-American.
More nonsense.

----

Other than that, hell of a piece. :ThmbUp:

[Dahoss9698]

I'm sorry...I thought that we would actually phrase things in our own words so we could give an indication to the other person of what our opinion on things actually is...and where the other's opinion might be wrong.


Hey...give him credit. He was able to complete his post without recycling the same 2 or 3 pictures.

You hit the nail on the head though. The people that run around here thinking they are so "informed" are the ones who regurgitate Fox News the most. That is how they are "informed."

Parrots.

[PaceAdvantage]

Hey...give him credit. He was able to complete his post without recycling the same 2 or 3 pictures.

You hit the nail on the head though. The people that run around here thinking they are so "informed" are the ones who regurgitate Fox News the most. That is how they are "informed."

Parrots.Simply not true. And you sound like a parrot for propagating such misinformation.

Fox News is no better and no worse than any other cable news network. You consider them slanted just as others consider MSNBC. Two sides of the same coin.

There's a guy posting link after link from Mother Jones lately...maybe you are planning a swipe at him next?

See what I mean? Nobody here is better than anyone else. The vast majority of us has picked a side and that's the way it is.

And for the record, I can't remember the last time I watched Fox News or any other cable news network for that matter.

[Dahoss9698]

Simply not true. And you sound like a parrot for propagating such misinformation.

Fox News is no better and no worse than any other cable news network. You consider them slanted just as others consider MSNBC. Two sides of the same coin.

There's a guy posting link after link from Mother Jones lately...maybe you are planning a swipe at him next?

See what I mean? Nobody here is better than anyone else. The vast majority of us has picked a side and that's the way it is.

And for the record, I can't remember the last time I watched Fox News or any other cable news network for that matter.

Well I think it's true and I have the entire off topic section as proof.

we've had the same discussion a bunch of times and we're never going to agree, no matter how much you want me to.

[Tom]

Would you care to point out the fiction in the piece featured in this thread?

It is an opinion piece.

[Tom]

I don't remember that... :cool:

Seriously?

[Tom]

Tom,

It does not matter if the "facts" came from NYT or Fox News.

Unless you address the other real issues then you cannot start to solve them and if we do not then there is a whole world out there who will in competition against us.

I was replying to the post about the Times not being the place to go to for information.

I think I have been addressing the issue of our entire government being bought and paid for and corrupt for along time now.

[Tom]

The people that run around here thinking they are so "informed" are the ones who regurgitate Fox News the most. That is how they are "informed."

Parrots.

Both sides, but you knew that.
At least they post something other than the drive-by drivel pot shout that are your contributions. :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

Both sides, but you knew that.
At least they post something other than the drive-by drivel pot shout that are your contributions. :lol:
How many times are you going to whine about how I post? If the moderator has an issue with what I say, he deletes it.

For a "guy" who likes to talk about people growing a set, you've been crying for over a week now about me and how I post.

How about you grow a set and man up. If you're going throw your lame shots out there, then shut your big mouth when they are returned.

[Tom]

How about you grow a set and man up. If you're going throw your lame shots out there, then shut your big mouth when they are returned.

Ooooooo.
Board cop getting testy? :lol::lol::lol:

Try contributing to a thread or two once in a while. Might get you some credibility.

[Dahoss9698]

Ooooooo.
Board cop getting testy? :lol::lol::lol:

Try contributing to a thread or two once in a while. Might get you some credibility.
I just wanted you to see how ridiculous it is when you have your little outbursts. Looks pretty dumb, right? Now you know how we feel.

Credibility. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Your complete lack of self awareness is amusing as always.

[rastajenk]

Dude, every thread you enter turns to unreadable shitslinging. Your complete sense of self awareness is not amusing.

[Dahoss9698]

There is an ignore function. You can always utilize it.

Or whine about me. Either way have a great night! :ThmbUp:

[bigmack]

There is an ignore function. You can always utilize it.

Or whine about me. Either way have a great night! :ThmbUp:
Keep that daily post count up. Exit with a BANG. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

There is an ignore function. You can always utilize it.

Or whine about me. Either way have a great night! :ThmbUp:Ignore function wouldn't work too well considering...

[Dahoss9698]

Ignore function wouldn't work too well considering...
It works fine.

But it's not my fault that you have people here who even you admit are out of control. That's on them...and you for allowing it.

Be careful though. You respond to a few more of my posts and I might accuse you of stalking, or call you a name because I am unable to control myself. That's what the real men do, right?

[Robert Goren]

There is one disturbing trend in the USA both inside and outside of government I noticed. Everything that cost money is treat the way accountants treat paying taxes. Postpone paying them as long as possible even it will end costing more in the long run. The Government(all of them federal,state and local), private companies and even individuals seem to have adopted this attitude on fixing everything. Don't do anything that cost(or at least pay for the cost) until absolutely have to. Look arround and you will see the results of this attitude everywhere. you will see it in bad roads and outdated computers as but two examples. you will see it with houses that need a new coat of paint. I don't think this an attitude that will sustain a great nation forever.

[badcompany]

Yes, I'm thoroughly convinced by the piece that the United States needs to be more like Europe.:lol:

http://www.latimes.com/business/money/la-fi-mo-europe-unemployment-record-economy-20121001,0,3913626.story

Eurozone unemployment rate at record 11.4% in August

WASHINGTON -- The unemployment rate in the economically struggling Eurozone hit a record 11.4% in August, the European Union said Monday.
The unemployment rates for June and July also were revised up to 11.4%, meaning the 17-nation Eurozone has seen its jobless situation at that level for three straight months, according to Eurostat, the European Union's statistical office.

Before the adjustments, Eurostat had said unemployment was at 11.2% in June and 11.3% in July, both record highs. The combined unemployment rate for the Eurozone nations dates to 1995.

Unemployment for the Eurozone in August was up from 10.2% a year earlier.
Amid rising concern about the region's economy, the European Central Bank last month unveiled a plan to buy bonds of financially troubled nations.

The highest unemployment rates in August were in Spain and Greece, whose debt problems have fueled a European crisis that is dragging down the world economy. About a quarter of residents in those two countries -- 25.1% in Spain and 24.4% in Greece -- were unemployed in August.

The lowest rates were 4.5% in Austria, 5.2% in Luxembourg, 5.3% in the Netherlands and 5.5% in Germany.

The U.S. unemployment rate was 8.1% in August. The government is set to release the September rate on Friday.

[Valuist]

There is an ignore function. You can always utilize it.

Or whine about me. Either way have a great night! :ThmbUp:

Thanks for reminding us. I think I will make you the first ignore.

[bigmack]

Thanks for reminding us. I think I will make you the first ignore.
You don't have to do that. He's gone Nov 7th.

[thaskalos]

You don't have to do that. He's gone Nov 7th.

Are you guys serious about that?

I thought it was a joke...

[bigmack]

Are you guys serious about that?

I thought it was a joke...
What gave you that impression?

[badcompany]

The areas which the writer cites the U.S as lacking are healthcare, education and poverty reduction. However, because of his economic illiteracy and ideological blinkers, he can't see that these are the same areas in which there has been the most government intervention, and he can't fathom the idea that government intervention has made these problems worse.

The writer as well as the Liberals on this board might want to take a look at the tech sector where there is very little government intervention. Not surprisingly, the United States is easily the world leader. You also should ask yourselves why there are virtually no innovative European tech companies. Where is the European Apple, Google, Amazon, Ebay or even Facebook?

The answer is that, in Socialist Europe, Entrepeneurs are viewed with disdain.

[Dahoss9698]

You don't have to do that. He's gone Nov 7th.
I love how confident you are. Ironically, you've really stepped it up since you had (another) your unfortunate emotional outburst. Must have made you feel pretty good talking tough like that, huh big guy?

Either way it's a win/win for me. I win and no one has to read your tired recycled posts anymore. I mean, how many times can you post that picture from O Brother, Where Art Thou before you realize you've beaten it to death like one of Tom's poor keyboards?

I lose and I don't have to keep making you look like such a chump anymore. I think we can all agree I have done a solid job with that, and by now it's just old watching it happen over...and over...and over again. Isn't it?

[bigmack]

:lol:

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhwiilQoe81qe0eclo1_r1_500.gif

[Dahoss9698]

That's the one. Was funny the first 100 or so times. Now it's as played out as your "most interesting person in the world" nonsense.

But hey, you impress Tom.

Congrats.....I guess?

[Tom]

Leave me out of your childish games.
How old are you anyway? :rolleyes:

[Dahoss9698]

Leave me out of your childish games.
How old are you anyway? :rolleyes:
Yeah, you really set the standard for maturity here.

[bigmack]

Yeah, you really set the standard for maturity here.
Nice signature.

You're coming unglued. Is Dexter still alive? :D

[Tom]

Isn't it against TOS to quote posters in your signature?

[bigmack]

Isn't it against TOS to quote posters in your signature?
Let him have his few hours of fun. Handicapping hasn't been going well for him and he's about to lose a bet with moi.