TVG AND BETFAIR

[GARY Z]

over the past few weeks TVG is showing Betfair odds vs actual odds
at various tracks.

i thought the issue of Betfair being available in the U S was
squashed.

I know Betfair owns TVG, anyone know if Betfair will now be avaliable
stateside?

[pandy]

They're still working on it but not getting much help from the racing industry. As you know, change comes slow to this poorly run industry. Another point, many horse players have actually come out against exchange wagering, which is puzzling since it clearly gives bettors more options and improves chances of showing a betting profit.

[classhandicapper]

Another point, many horse players have actually come out against exchange wagering, which is puzzling since it clearly gives bettors more options and improves chances of showing a betting profit.

Evidence that some gamblers have self destructive tendencies. ;)

[gm10]

Betfair isn't as seductive as it once was. The odds are still better, clearly better, but the commissions punishes those who make a profit from them.

As I mentioned in another thread, me and another guy run an automated strategy that generates about 5% profit (US thoroughbred races only). What I didn't mention before is that our profit before commission is 15%. In other words, Betfair takes 66% of our profits.

1/3 of a 15% edge is still better than 100% of what would be a 0% edge using tote odds, but it feels very unfair, especially since one of their main selling points is that their odds are much better.

To me, exchange betting is still a superior betting medium, but Betfair are running a bit of a monopoly at the moment. They are essentially getting away with false advertising: the final "real" odds are not the odds that you think you are getting.

[usedtolovetvg]

There is a great deal of negativity surrounding TVG & Betfair. I do believe the industry is stalling so that they can get their own platform in place. Many hurdles have to be overcome and an initiation is needed into how this really works. It is not just as simple as seeing odds you like and clicking. The real money is made betting both on the place and the lay sides; lay low, place high. There are bots that will snatch the best odds. The pros that make the most money are not necessarily horse players. It is not as simple as BF would like you to believe.

Caveat Punter!

[davew]

the Betfair odds posted/shown are similar to showing mutual odds before takeout.

but with some tracks having over 50% of the mutual pool showing up AFTER the gates are loaded and they are off - value betting is truly a crapshoot if you like any of the top contenders in the current parimutual system.

Both systems have much to offer, it is a shame owners and track management do not see this.

[edmond1]

Corresponding Betfair odds that TVG were showing on Keeneland races were misleading. They were forgetting to subtract 1 point from the Betfair odds. IE. on Betfair 3.0 actually means 2 to 1. Commission and applicable Premium Charges not included either.......

[edmond1]

Betfair isn't as seductive as it once was. The odds are still better, clearly better, but the commissions punishes those who make a profit from them.

As I mentioned in another thread, me and another guy run an automated strategy that generates about 5% profit (US thoroughbred races only). What I didn't mention before is that our profit before commission is 15%. In other words, Betfair takes 66% of our profits.

1/3 of a 15% edge is still better than 100% of what would be a 0% edge using tote odds, but it feels very unfair, especially since one of their main selling points is that their odds are much better.

To me, exchange betting is still a superior betting medium, but Betfair are running a bit of a monopoly at the moment. They are essentially getting away with false advertising: the final "real" odds are not the odds that you think you are getting.

Are Premium Charges not impacting your profits ?

[gm10]

Are Premium Charges not impacting your profits ?

Yes, they are.

It is all very misleading, and also very difficult to predict how much charges you will actually be paying. We were pretty shocked to be honest.

It's essentially a tax on profits. They should not be allowed to advertise that their odds are x% better than with the bookmakers/tote. The only bettors to who this applies are those who are unprofitable.

[Hoofhearted]

The couple of guys I know who fell victim to the Premium Charge a couple of years ago when it was introduced have consequently taken " preventative measures" to ensure they haven't been subject to it since. ;)

[gm10]

The couple of guys I know who fell victim to the Premium Charge a couple of years ago when it was introduced have consequently taken " preventative measures" to ensure they haven't been subject to it since. ;)
How would one take such measures?

[Hoofhearted]

How would one take such measures?

Nothing hugely technical or financially ingenious, really.

1) Gnomed Betfair accounts to spread the profit between same and also remain below the "250 markets" limit on each gnomed account.
2) Back likely losers ( in large liquidity markets like Prem Div soccer and Listed/Group horseraces) on Betfair, and Lay same at similar matched odds on Betdaq or Smarkets (3% and 2% base commission rates respectively).

[gm10]

Nothing hugely technical or financially ingenious, really.

1) Gnomed Betfair accounts to spread the profit between same and also remain below the "250 markets" limit on each gnomed account.
2) Back likely losers ( in large liquidity markets like Prem Div soccer and Listed/Group horseraces) on Betfair, and Lay same at similar matched odds on Betdaq or Smarkets (3% and 2% base commission rates respectively).

Option 1) would work ... thx

[Robert Goren]

there are two problems hold up betfair or any simular type of system.

1) how to pay the people put on the show
2) will there be enough cash in play to make it worthwhile.
The second problem is going to harder to over come than the first. without a large customer base, the losers money will soon be gone and new losers will needed to be attracted. this is not easily done and will be very costly to Betfair. The winners seem to think the losers grow on trees but they don't. I think the Betfair model is not a workable business plan in the USA although I wish it were. I would love to know exactly what odds I was getting when I bet on a horse.
Then there is problem of stiffed horses at what appear to be attractive odds. The industry has enough problem with people trying to cheat to win without adding a bunch of crooks cheating to lose the race to win a bet. Anybody who doesn't think this will become as wide spread the people cheating to win a race has their head in buried artifical turf that was removed Santa Anita.

[castaway01]

Robert, I'm sorry you were sick, but I'm not happy that you're back to be negative about everything, most of which you have no knowledge of. Betfair is good FOR THE PLAYER COMPARED TO THE TAKEOUT WE HAVE NOW. I'm a player, and I'd love the legal option of Betfair or something similar in the United States. Case closed.

[Robert Goren]

Robert, I'm sorry you were sick, but I'm not happy that you're back to be negative about everything, most of which you have no knowledge of. Betfair is good FOR THE PLAYER COMPARED TO THE TAKEOUT WE HAVE NOW. I'm a player, and I'd love the legal option of Betfair or something similar in the United States. Case closed. Thanks for the concern about my health. I am not out the woods yet. but at least I have found a way to post here
There is no bigger advocate of huge drops in takeout rates than me. my posts on the subject number in the hundreds if not the thousands. I wish the Betfair business model would work, I just can not take a realistic look at it and see how it can. The fact that they have had to put a surcharge on large winners pretty much tells the story.

[gm10]

Thanks for the concern about my health. I am not out the woods yet. but at least I have found a way to post here
There is no bigger advocate of huge drops in takeout rates than me. my posts on the subject number in the hundreds if not the thousands. I wish the Betfair business model would work, I just can not take a realistic look at it and see how it can. The fact that they have had to put a surcharge on large winners pretty much tells the story.

They didn't have to, they really didn't. Not until they decided to become a corporation that is traded on the London Stock Exchange, anyway.

The company was more than profitable when it was small and nimble, and the customers got a much better deal!

Hope everything works out for you health-wise.

[usedtolovetvg]

All the original members of the management have left BF. Like so many other companies that have gone public they have become obsessed with showing a profit for their stock holders. Unfortunately, like so many others, cost cutting and money grubbing doesn't not always = a higher stock price. The stock is now about 1/2 of its ipo price and shareholders are not happy :( . Still surprising to me that Burn is still there. He is definitely part of the old team and hasn't been a roaring success over here.

[edmond1]

Option 1) would work ... thx

Thought that Betfair has a special team of investigators checking for this type of activity ?? That's why I bet on Betdaq now if I get right odds.

[gm10]

Thought that Betfair has a special team of investigators checking for this type of activity ?? That's why I bet on Betdaq now if I get right odds.

My wife has one which I can use.

[Hoofhearted]

Thought that Betfair has a special team of investigators checking for this type of activity ?? That's why I bet on Betdaq now if I get right odds.
If the Gnome accounts are in the names of wive's, brothers, friends etc who are "real" people and who consequently do not red-flag Betfair's Know-Your-Customer procedure then no problems will arise. Betfair's investigative dept are on the look-out for "something else" which is better not discussed here.
It is also highly recommended also, of course, to change the M.A.C.address of your computer -- the hardware/firmware identifier unique to every computer. (There is a particular easy and straightforward method to accomplish this).
To a lesser degree, it might also be safer to delete that horrible little creature known as Iesnare from your comp. ( Most every gamer and punter has had Iesnare surrepticiously planted on their computer by those evil bookmakers, and they don't realise it). :)
Whatever about Iesnare, however, it is the M.A.C address that will catch you out every time. Change it !

[fmolf]

I have to agree with Robert their is just too much room for "Hanky Panky" all at the expense of the little guy/recreational gambler......
Robert best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Wish some of the" Math guys" could give us the effective takeouts for exchange wagering with betfair.I have a friend that worked for6 mos. over in london he said he felt more comfortable and got better odds using the conventional brick/mortar bookmaking operation!

[Some_One]

I have to agree with Robert their is just too much room for "Hanky Panky" all at the expense of the little guy/recreational gambler......
Robert best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Wish some of the" Math guys" could give us the effective takeouts for exchange wagering with betfair.I have a friend that worked for6 mos. over in london he said he felt more comfortable and got better odds using the conventional brick/mortar bookmaking operation!

I believe I calculated a while ago that the difference with a 4% commission is that effect is similar to a 7% rebate, probably why Pinnacle was so great when it was around.