Charles Town R2 wednesday 10/17

[Robert Fischer]

Anyone know what happened here ?

I had the :6: horse to show.

Horse breaks cleanly, runs 2nd the whole way and finishes 2nd as clearly the 2nd best.

I come back to see the 6 is not listed in the top 3 horses. My ADW shows it as a loss.

Watched the replay, no cause for objection that I could see. He didn't break down near the wire, I saw the horse cross the line, and verified that it was #6.

Did anybody catch this ? Was there a DQ ??

[Robert Fischer]

just watched the replay again

couldn't have been cleaner out of the gate and into the first turn.

:confused:

horse name Stop the Bull

[Relwob Owner]

Anyone know what happened here ?

I had the :6: horse to show.

Horse breaks cleanly, runs 2nd the whole way and finishes 2nd as clearly the 2nd best.

I come back to see the 6 is not listed in the top 3 horses. My ADW shows it as a loss.

Watched the replay, no cause for objection that I could see. He didn't break down near the wire, I saw the horse cross the line, and verified that it was #6.

Did anybody catch this ? Was there a DQ ??



There was and I think the issue was at the start?

[lamboguy]

it was a very marginable take down. i had the same horse. he banged into the 5 who in turn banged into the 4. most of the time they let that go, in WV, you never know what they are going to do. i thought they were going to leave it up because there was only $5k in the show hole on him. i was wrong!

[Robert Fischer]

it was a very marginable take down. i had the same horse. he banged into the 5 who in turn banged into the 4. most of the time they let that go, in WV, you never know what they are going to do. i thought they were going to leave it up because there was only $5k in the show hole on him. i was wrong!

just watched it again

he never touched the 5

are they saying he cut across the 5 too aggressively ??

WTF this is stupidity

[Robert Fischer]

guess they don't like minus pools there.


Lesson learned.

[Stillriledup]

CT has borderline takedowns there all the time, they run a 'tight ship' sort of speak.

Call the judges and state your case and tell them why you think it was a bad call. I've called CT before (maybe 6-9 months ago?) and had a nice and somewhat long conversation with one of the judges about a DQ i thought was unfair. I think you need to be civil and professional and the guy will give you the time of day and tell you why the horse came down.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...are they saying he cut across the 5 too aggressively ??

WTF this is stupidity

I would assume so. He drops pretty aggressively from the 6 path down to about the three and from the head-on it seems the five reacted as though the 6 wasn't clear of him and began a chain reaction that forced the three others inside of him to all take up to some degree. The head-on view shows what happens, but it surely doesn't demonstrate whether or not the 6 was clear of the 5 or anyone else. It looks as though the 5 broke a little poorly, which in my mind mitigates any "entitlement" to a path leaving the gate when it is a horse directly inside or outside that comes down or over. I tried watching the pan from the live view again, but that angle sucks too. It certainly may be the case that the 6 was not sufficiently clear when dropping in and caused all the trouble, but the two angles available to the viewer don't make an exceedingly convincing case to substantiate that beyond something in the ballpark of a reasonable doubt.

[Robert Fischer]

CT has borderline takedowns there all the time, they run a 'tight ship' sort of speak.

Call the judges and state your case and tell them why you think it was a bad call. I've called CT before (maybe 6-9 months ago?) and had a nice and somewhat long conversation with one of the judges about a DQ i thought was unfair. I think you need to be civil and professional and the guy will give you the time of day and tell you why the horse came down.

Thanks Stillriled.

I can see what the call was on the replay. The :5: horse (one post inside of my 6) was out of control from the break. At the break the 5 lugs in to the 4 all on his own, while the 6 breaks straight ahead.

My jock Jose Montano on my :6: has a clear path to start to move inside to secure decent position into the tight first turn. However Montano was demonstrative with the move. -Andd at the same time he didn't urge my 6.

Meanwhile the GOOFY 5 horse (who has 1/18th the WPS money as my 6) Is busy lugging in AGAIN on the 4 and putting everyone in tight quarters.
Had Montano urged my 6 and accelerated into the 1st turn it would have been obvious that the 5 was just a mess, but with Horse and rider sitting tight (picture Dominguez when he knows he has secured rail position going to the 1st turn), I can see how it looked bad and could be construed as my 6 causing him to be lugging in and leaning on the other horse in tight quarters.

Obviously I'm biased, but that is the best I could see from that.

Honestly a little "stunned", at this moment don't think contacting the stewards would be a benefit, but I am going to withdraw and regroup.

[Robert Fischer]

It looks as though the 5 broke a little poorly, which in my mind mitigates any "entitlement" to a path leaving the gate when it is a horse directly inside or outside that comes down or over. I tried watching the pan from the live view again, but that angle sucks too. It certainly may be the case that the 6 was not sufficiently clear when dropping in and caused all the trouble, but the two angles available to the viewer don't make an exceedingly convincing case to substantiate that beyond something in the ballpark of a reasonable doubt.

thanks JHS

[Robert Fischer]

aw man..

the "goofy" 5 horse from this race "FRANK GALL"

...
his last race his comments: "came out bumping ROCKY TWIST at the start, brushed JENNYS EARTHQUAKE early then never factored outside"

I just watched Frank Galls' last race (9/27) and he did the same crap at the beginning of the race lugging into other horses and putting several in tight quarters.

:bang::bang::bang:

i need to move on. forget it.

[SharpCat]

I had the 6 in the exacta. I believe it was the correct call. There was a stewards inquiry 4 against the 6. Let's get this out of the way. If you watch the head on the 5 breaks inward ever so slighty and the jock quickly corrects him never making any contact or impeding the 4 horse in any manor. Montavo on the 6 horse moves toward the inside without having proper clearance of the 5 horse who eventually came over on the 4 horse. Montavo never even looked over his shoulder to make sure he had proper clearance before moving towards the inside. I'm sure the stewards will be going over the replay with Montavo.

[Relwob Owner]

I had the 6 in the exacta. I believe it was the correct call. There was a stewards inquiry 4 against the 6. Let's get this out of the way. If you watch the head on the 5 breaks inward ever so slighty and the jock quickly corrects him never making any contact or impeding the 4 horse in any manor. Montavo on the 6 horse moves toward the inside without having proper clearance of the 5 horse who eventually came over on the 4 horse. Montavo never even looked over his shoulder to make sure he had proper clearance before moving towards the inside. I'm sure the stewards will be going over the replay with Montavo.


I watched the regular and head on replays several times and it is hard to tell if he was clear when he moved over. That being said, what that horse got taken down for probably happens in at least thirty percent of the races up there in the short period after leaving the gate and they rarely take horses down or even take a look at it at all.

[SharpCat]

I watched the regular and head on replays several times and it is hard to tell if he was clear when he moved over. That being said, what that horse got taken down for probably happens in at least thirty percent of the races up there in the short period after leaving the gate and they rarely take horses down or even take a look at it at all.


I was ok with the descision. I personally thought he did not have proper clearance when he came over causing a chain reaction. One thing I can say for sure is that the stewards did not take long to make their descision. I put this one on the jockey for not looking to see whether he was clear or not. As for the stewards all I can ask is that they be consistent but they struggle to do that.

[appistappis]

another brutal call in my opinion.....the 6 did no more to the 5/4 than the 1 did to the 2/3 out of the gate.

[SharpCat]

another brutal call in my opinion.....the 6 did no more to the 5/4 than the 1 did to the 2/3 out of the gate.


Have to disagree here. The infraction did not happen right out of the gate. The 6 broke straight about 4 or 5 strides into the race the jockey moves him towards the inside. The only question in this race is whether or not he had clearance on the 5. Maybe multiple jockeys got on the phone and said he did not have clearance.

[Robert Fischer]

It was the wrong call, but in hindsight there was not anything nefarious about it.

It was hard to know that the 5 was a problem horse, and if you don't look for it, and know what to look for, it would be very easy to think that the actions of the 6 had something to do with the 5 being out of control.

You're horse can stumble badly from the gate, dump the rider, bolt the turn, break down, get fouled badly by another horse, legitimately foul another horse, or even in this case simply appear to foul a horse.

Lots of things that can randomly happen aside from the running of the horse race, and they are all part of the probability estimate. In theory they should even out. Part of the game.

[SharpCat]

It was the wrong call, but in hindsight there was not anything nefarious about it.

It was hard to know that the 5 was a problem horse, and if you don't look for it, and know what to look for, it would be very easy to think that the actions of the 6 had something to do with the 5 being out of control.

You're horse can stumble badly from the gate, dump the rider, bolt the turn, break down, get fouled badly by another horse, legitimately foul another horse, or even in this case simply appear to foul a horse.

Lots of things that can randomly happen aside from the running of the horse race, and they are all part of the probability estimate. In theory they should even out. Part of the game.


I wonder if maybe you are watching a different race than me. I lost money because of the DQ and believe it was the correct call. From the head on it's clear that the Montavo on the 6 moves over about 4 paths. From the pan shot it does not appear to me the 6 horse has proper clearance and at one point the 5 horse almost clips his heels. Can you explain to me how the 5 was out of control? If the 5 was out of control as you say how come the jockey claimed foul against the 6 instead?

[Relwob Owner]

I wonder if maybe you are watching a different race than me. I lost money because of the DQ and believe it was the correct call. From the head on it's clear that the Montavo on the 6 moves over about 4 paths. From the pan shot it does not appear to me the 6 horse has proper clearance and at one point the 5 horse almost clips his heels. Can you explain to me how the 5 was out of control? If the 5 was out of control as you say how come the jockey claimed foul against the 6 instead?


I don't think there is any way you can tell from the pan shot whether the horse had proper clearance. To me, that is what made it a bad decision because there wasn't an angle that showed the horse should be taken down.

As I stated earlier in the thread, one thing that isn't debatable and makes the decision look strange is that things like this happen at CT all of the time leaving the gate and in the time shortly thereafter and no changes are made.

[SharpCat]

I don't think there is any way you can tell from the pan shot whether the horse had proper clearance. To me, that is what made it a bad decision because there wasn't an angle that showed the horse should be taken down.

As I stated earlier in the thread, one thing that isn't debatable and makes the decision look strange is that things like this happen at CT all of the time leaving the gate and in the time shortly thereafter and no changes are made.


The 5 checked and eventually came over on the 4 causing him to check and bump the 3. The question is whether or not the 6 was at fault. I agree that with the pan shot you can not tell 100% whether or not he had proper clearance. That leads to a couple of questions. As a steward do you solely rely on the video to make your descision? What do you do if the jockeys on 3, 4 and 5 say he did not have clearance?

[Relwob Owner]

The 5 checked and eventually came over on the 4 causing him to check and bump the 3. The question is whether or not the 6 was at fault. I agree that with the pan shot you can not tell 100% whether or not he had proper clearance. That leads to a couple of questions. As a steward do you solely rely on the video to make your descision? What do you do if the jockeys on 3, 4 and 5 say he did not have clearance?

Without a doubt....the video isn't biased. The opinions of the jocks are. Do you really think that with money on the line, along with their reps in terms of how they rode, jocks can be relied upon? I honestly don't and frankly have always wondered why their opinions are considered because of their obvious bias. If there isn't definite video evidence(which you said there wasn't in terms of being 100 percent sure there was clearance), the horse shouldn't come down in my opinion.

Even if they were forthright in spite of their obvious biases, who is to say the jocks on the three and the four were watching what was going on to their right instead of looking straight ahead?

[SharpCat]

Without a doubt....the video isn't biased. The opinions of the jocks are. Do you really think that with money on the line, along with their reps in terms of how they rode, jocks can be relied upon? I honestly don't and frankly have always wondered why their opinions are considered because of their obvious bias. If there isn't definite video evidence(which you said there wasn't in terms of being 100 percent sure there was clearance), the horse shouldn't come down in my opinion.

Even if they were forthright in spite of their obvious biases, who is to say the jocks on the three and the four were watching what was going on to their right instead of looking straight ahead?


I'm not familiar with the configuration of CT. Is it possible they saw something through binoculars that they could not see on video?

[Relwob Owner]

I'm not familiar with the configuration of CT. Is it possible they saw something through binoculars that they could not see on video?


I doubt it. I just think they made a bad call. It happens at all tracks but with that big of a favorite getting knocked out of the top 3, it raised eyebrows. Because of the greater number of turns than normal and the often short runs up to them, you see lots of jostling similar to what happened in that race and as I have said, usually they don't result in DQ's/

I guess we just agree to disagree on it but always glad to debate the goings on at CT and wish you good luck betting there. I think it is a cool track to bet.

[SharpCat]

I must be crazy I lost money because of the DQ and I agree with the call. I like to bet CT and wish you luck as well. It's nice to have a debate back and forth where both parties are civil.

[Relwob Owner]

I must be crazy I lost money because of the DQ and I agree with the call. I like to bet CT and wish you luck as well. It's nice to have a debate back and forth where both parties are civil.


Not crazy, just shows you are objective and unbiased......I agree about being good to debate things in a civil way. Good luck if you are betting the Classics tomorrow night. I have a very poor history betting them but hope to turn it around!

[SharpCat]

I'll probably watch the races from Ellis Park. Will be pulling for 6yo Russell Road to win his 3rd West Virginia Classic.

[Relwob Owner]

I'll probably watch the races from Ellis Park. Will be pulling for 6yo Russell Road to win his 3rd West Virginia Classic.


Me too.....terrific horse and an owner who is very easy to root for