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how cliche
10-05-2012, 11:19 AM
There's some 1-2 NL games and one 2-2-3 NL game near my home. There's no midstakes 2-5 games and the next level is what I consider high stakes at 5-10.

Low stakes is fine. The games aren't unbeatable, but one factor turns 'em into crapshoots, imo. The rooms limit your buy ins to 100bb. Anyone who plays these games understands this can put the newly seated player in precarious spots & often.

I wonder why the bi is so low. How do players go about raising it? Not asking for craziness, just would like to buy 250bb when I'm seated.

proximity
10-08-2012, 11:47 PM
back east here most of these games are 150bb max buy in. the only bigger buy in games (1-2) i know of are revel in a.c., which i believe was $500 and i hear there is no limit on the buy in at golden nugget in a.c. although i've never played there.

rivers in pittsburgh may have had a bigger max buy in (1-3) but i can't remember for sure.

lsbets
10-09-2012, 01:54 AM
At 1-3, both Bellagio and Aria are 100bb buy ins. 2-5 max is 100bb at Bellagio and 200bb at Aria. I've seen some rooms that have a 100bb max or 80% of the big stack.

If you're at a 1-3 table with some dude who has heeps in front of him and is trying to bully everyone, life got easy for you, especially if you have position. Nit it up and wait till you get a hand. It's 1-3 after all, chances are the guy is not nearly as good as he thinks he is.

raybo
10-09-2012, 10:33 AM
At 1-3, both Bellagio and Aria are 100bb buy ins. 2-5 max is 100bb at Bellagio and 200bb at Aria. I've seen some rooms that have a 100bb max or 80% of the big stack.

If you're at a 1-3 table with some dude who has heeps in front of him and is trying to bully everyone, life got easy for you, especially if you have position. Nit it up and wait till you get a hand. It's 1-3 after all, chances are the guy is not nearly as good as he thinks he is.

The problem with that strategy is that you may never get a hand until it's too late. Tight play in low stakes games is a good way to consistently lose money, in my ezperience anyway.

lsbets
10-09-2012, 01:02 PM
The problem with that strategy is that you may never get a hand until it's too late. Tight play in low stakes games is a good way to consistently lose money, in my ezperience anyway.

Most people who play at low stakes are not good enough to play a loose aggressive game. They end up gambling. In the example mentioned, if you have someone with a sizable chip advantage who is constantly raising and reraising to large amounts, the only correct strategy is to tighten up. He will never give you the correct odds to draw to a hand. But he will also not be able to let go of marginal hands, and your patience will be rewarded.

Tighten up does not mean wait for premiums. It means wait until you have good hands in position that are ahead of the maniacs range. Flat call his raises with hands that flop well. Call with middle and low pairs. You'll have to fold the flop most times, but when you get a set you'll double up. Call in position with suited connectors. Reraise with good pairs. Don't be subtle, most of these guys can't figure out how to fold. They start playing what I call big dick poker. Folding would be weak, they would rather show how tough they are by staying in, even when they know they are behind. If you have the stomach for it and don't mind a few flips, you will make money until he leaves or changes his play. You should probably have a few extra buy ins in your pocket, but if you don't start gambling, you will do well.

Personally I hate playing low stakes, to me its not enjoyable. But its easy to beat. The above strategy is how I built my bankroll. Hopefully I'll never be down at 1-3 again, but if I am, that's how I'll be playing.

raybo
10-09-2012, 01:23 PM
Most people who play at low stakes are not good enough to play a loose aggressive game. They end up gambling. In the example mentioned, if you have someone with a sizable chip advantage who is constantly raising and reraising to large amounts, the only correct strategy is to tighten up. He will never give you the correct odds to draw to a hand. But he will also not be able to let go of marginal hands, and your patience will be rewarded.

Tighten up does not mean wait for premiums. It means wait until you have good hands in position that are ahead of the maniacs range. Flat call his raises with hands that flop well. Call with middle and low pairs. You'll have to fold the flop most times, but when you get a set you'll double up. Call in position with suited connectors. Reraise with good pairs. Don't be subtle, most of these guys can't figure out how to fold. They start playing what I call big dick poker. Folding would be weak, they would rather show how tough they are by staying in, even when they know they are behind. If you have the stomach for it and don't mind a few flips, you will make money until he leaves or changes his play. You should probably have a few extra buy ins in your pocket, but if you don't start gambling, you will do well.

Personally I hate playing low stakes, to me its not enjoyable. But its easy to beat. The above strategy is how I built my bankroll. Hopefully I'll never be down at 1-3 again, but if I am, that's how I'll be playing.

The strategy you desribed in the quoted post is much different than your earlier post. I tend to agree with everything you say in the last post.

Low stakes games draw more average or below players, but it also draws its share of sharks, stalking the weaker players in these games. Picking your spots, and against whom, is extremely important. There's plenty of "dumb money" in these games, as a general rule, but beware of whom you choose to engage.

lsbets
10-09-2012, 01:34 PM
The strategy you desribed in the quoted post is much different than your earlier post. I tend to agree with everything you say in the last post.


That's my definition of nit it up. :) So to me, its just an explanation of what I said the first time. I think you saw my first post as wait for aces.

In a game against thinking players, I will see a lot more flops in position with more speculative hands. Suited connectors all the way down to 23, two gap suited down to 46, 3 gap down to 69. I'm much more apt to play a hand like 10 8 suited than a trouble hand like KJ off where you end up playing a guessing game if you flop a K.

how cliche
10-09-2012, 02:01 PM
I don't disagree with you fellows at all. I guess it's about enjoyment for me. Understand I often can budget just 5 to 7 hours in a single session. So it's often not til the 2nd half I sense I'm having fun.

Robert Goren
10-09-2012, 02:16 PM
I am pretty sure he is talking about cash games at a casino or a card club. There are regulars who sit there for hours on end gathering big stacks. It not unusal to see 4 or 5 big stakes in one of those games. They will try to push you arround and there is not much you can do about it until you hit a a big hand. It is different game than online. If it was me I would play limit poker. But then again, I am an old fart who grew up on limit or pot limit poker. Let me assure things do not change in NL with increased buy ins or larger stakes in NL. You will run into the same bulling in all live NL cash poker. It is what any, but the worst, NL player will do to a short stack. Learn to play a short stack. There is a ton of info on doing it online. Or go to a limit game, but beware , the average live limited player is a lot better than the average live NL player.

thaskalos
10-09-2012, 03:10 PM
It takes a lot of guts to play NL correctly...even at the lower stakes. IMO...the best way to get acclimated to the wild swings inherent in NL holdem is to buy in for a lesser amount. To be the short stack in a live game is not the disadvantage most people consider it to be...assuming of course that you have more money in your pocket, and you are not playing "scared".

Playing a short stack makes a player's life at the table much simpler...because the really tough decisions are much easier to make. It might seem that you are easier to push around when you are on a short stack...but in reality, the opposite is true.

Robert Goren
10-09-2012, 04:04 PM
It takes a lot of guts to play NL correctly...even at the lower stakes. IMO...the best way to get acclimated to the wild swings inherent in NL holdem is to buy in for a lesser amount. To be the short stack in a live game is not the disadvantage most people consider it to be...assuming of course that you have more money in your pocket, and you are not playing "scared".

Playing a short stack makes a player's life at the table much simpler...because the really tough decisions are much easier to make. It might seem that you are easier to push around when you are on a short stack...but in reality, the opposite is true.The short stack specialist is the most hated player in online NL poker. In a live you must be able to play a short stack and then switch gears as the stack. If you can't play a short stack in a cash game well, you are going to be eaten alive by the big stacks. Moving up stakes or larger buy ins isn't going to save you because you are always going to be short stacked when you sit down at the table unless you are there at the start of the table.

thaskalos
10-09-2012, 04:16 PM
The short stack specialist is the most hated player in online NL poker. In a live you must be able to play a short stack and then switch gears as the stack. If you can't play a short stack in a cash game well, you are going to be eaten alive by the big stacks. Moving up stakes or larger buy ins isn't going to save you because you are always going to be short stacked when you sit down at the table unless you are there at the start of the table.

My point is...it is much easier to play a short stack "right" than it is to play a big stack "right".

The short stack will not be able to make the elaborate bluffs that the large stacks can get away with...but the short stack has its advantages, and is not easily pushed around.

When I am about to pull a calculated bluff at the end of a hand, it isn't the large stack that I am most afraid of...it's the short stack -- because that's who is more likely to call me.

Even now, when I sit down in a 2/5 or a 5/10 NL game with "strangers"...I will buy in short -- until I get the feel of the table. And I never feel uncomfortable with a short stack.

raybo
10-09-2012, 04:21 PM
It takes a lot of guts to play NL correctly...even at the lower stakes. IMO...the best way to get acclimated to the wild swings inherent in NL holdem is to buy in for a lesser amount. To be the short stack in a live game is not the disadvantage most people consider it to be...assuming of course that you have more money in your pocket, and you are not playing "scared".

Playing a short stack makes a player's life at the table much simpler...because the really tough decisions are much easier to make. It might seem that you are easier to push around when you are on a short stack...but in reality, the opposite is true.

Agree! Especially agree with the "playing scared" part, you're pretty much doomed to lose, unless you get very lucky, very early on.

Learning to play the short stack, in any poker game, is a skill that most don't have, and most of those players don't even try to learn it, they just give up and go all-in and hope they get lucky. Of course, as you say, you are not nearly as short stack limited if you have more than 1 buy-in in your pocket. Your play can be much "looser/aggressive" if you're not looking at being tapped out after one or two big, losing hands.

lsbets
10-09-2012, 05:33 PM
The thing to remember playing a short stack (I'm talking 20bb) is the value of speculative hands goes way down and good top pair hands become much more valuable. Being the first one in the pot and having the lead in aggression is also much more valuable. Position is actually less important, because if you start with 20bb the correct play is often to go all in when you hit top pair on the flop. By doing that the deep stacks often end up making the wrong decision calling you because they are getting the wrong odds on their draws.

If you want to do well in tournaments you have to play very good short stacked poker.

lsbets
10-09-2012, 06:08 PM
One other thing. I haven't seen anywhere live that ou can buy in for a real short stack - 20bb. Off the top of my head, the lowest I recall is 40bb. That is not truly a short stack, and is also a pretty awkward stack size. You have too many chips to use the most powerful weapon a short stack has - all in. 25bb and lower is much easier to play.