Attendance Cup Day

[Ca9]

Great day of racing.I was surpised small crowd on a huge day of racing.

[thespaah]

Great day of racing.I was surprised small crowd on a huge day of racing.
Saw that only 8700 bothered to show up.
I can think of one problem right off the bat.
If one is coming from NJ or anywhere else west of the Hudson river, they are into their pocket $18.50 for tolls.....Lots of people have the money, but resent having to pay that kind of money AND get to sit in traffic for 90 minutes or more.
Ok, that may read like whining. However, the thing is with internet wagering widely available it's easier to just bet from home.
I'd like to see people go to the track. It would be great if the card drew 15 or 20 thousand.
If I were still living up there I would have sucked it up, paid the Port Authority and TBTA their dowry and went to the track.

[rgustafson]

Great day of racing.I was surpised small crowd on a huge day of racing.

This should be no surprise at all. It wasn't Belmont Stakes day with a potential triple crown winner on the line.

[ukbro00]

Santa Anita with 17,565 on Saturday

[usedtolovetvg]

Great day of racing.I was surpised small crowd on a huge day of racing.

According to Equibase the handle was up more than $3 million over last year.

[Jasonm921]

They don't promote...and in the current state of the franchise they're not going to even try.

I've even resorted to making my own ads up and pasting them up on facebook to help remind racing fans of potential matchups... http://www.flickr.com/photos/easygoer/8043930375/in/photostream

When the fans care more than management...its a problem.

[OTM Al]

They don't promote...and in the current state of the franchise they're not going to even try.

I've even resorted to making my own ads up and pasting them up on facebook to help remind racing fans of potential matchups... http://www.flickr.com/photos/easygoer/8043930375/in/photostream

When the fans care more than management...its a problem.

They do promote. Regular ads on sports radio, newspaper, social media, email blasts and the TV channel they broadcast. I guess you want them to buy primetime TV airtime? Kinda doubt they would get much return on that.

[Jasonm921]

Al...the 10 second ads on wfan are about as effective as facebook ads. No one knows what super saturday is...no one knows what 5 grade 1 races is....they need simplicity and some originality to bring people in who are outside our circle. They need creativity.

[PaceAdvantage]

Al...the 10 second ads on wfan are about as effective as facebook ads. No one knows what super saturday is...no one knows what 5 grade 1 races is....they need simplicity and some originality to bring people in who are outside our circle. They need creativity.But they also don't know who the hell those horses are either...

So what is there left to promote effectively, other than some giveaway?

Perhaps they should be promoting any recent big payouts in the pick 6 or pick 4...promote the fact that with a little bit of insight and a little bit of luck, you can turn $2 into a couple of hundred dollars...much better chance than you'll have with that scratch off ticket at the 7-11.

That might perk up some ears...

[aaron]

I think that most bettors will not go out of their way to go to the track.If people live more than a short ride they are probably not going to go.Many bettors,I know who live close to Belmont won't go because its just easier to bet from home. I don't think eleven race cards create more attendance.Also,its just the way racing is now. Most bettors continue to bet from home,because it is easier.At this point,I can't believe the low attendance is NYRA's fault. This is not 40 years ago,everything has changed. Also,there was no name horse on the card,that might draw people.
Its my guess the last 5 Jockey Gold Cup days,the attendance was probably not much different from Saturday.

[Jasonm921]

They should have advertised the half naked lady tvg jocks....may have gotten an extra 1000 guys there.

[OTM Al]

They should have advertised the half naked lady tvg jocks....may have gotten an extra 1000 guys there.

Actually the TVG jockey girls were there, so that's not going to do it either.

It's a tough sale. Star horses make little difference. Promoting that a horse will appear is an awful idea. You ever see what happens when that horse ends up having to scratch? Sports radio is a damn good outlet and probably the best medium there is to get the message to people you want to hear it. It would be better if the hosts talked about it more, but that doesn't get ratings so they aren't going to do it. I'd love for them to get better results and like to see them keep trying, but I'm not really sure anything will make a big difference

[rubicon55]

I know this is a problem getting folks to the track but I will give it a try once, here goes: how about certain type of regular wagers (exacta, dailly double, etc.) that pay a bonus amount when only placed at the track and only when their selected winner or combo hits, kinda like doubling up on your win by being at the track - money is always an incentive to a bettor (especially these days), or some other cash incentive like that? Got my helmet on now for the barrage of criticism. Back in the day at Longacres there was cash giveaways at the door inside giveaways that that brought the hordes in if freebies are a better option than bonuses.

[Jasonm921]

The mystery voucher worked until the employees started stealing them.
Al-i said they should havr advertised the tvg girls because they actually got more attention than the horses in the paddock.

[thespaah]

I did some research..
Here are the attendance/handle figs that are significant.
year main.....turf............all sources handle attendance..wx
2004...............fast.......Yielding.........$16 ,540,000.......16008
2005...............fast........firm.............$2 1,498,000........15737
2006...............fast........firm..............$ 17,649,000.......16959
2007...............fast........firm..............$ 15,722,000.......19338
2008...............my/sly(s)..off..............$16,600,000.........8563 showers
Note. off the turf except for grade 1's...Turf Classic/Flower Bowl
2009...............sly(s)......off...............$ 15,193,000.........7000..rain
Note off the turf except grade 1's Flower Bowl/ Turf Classic
2010...............fast..........off.............. $18,190,000.........9671
Note. Off the turf except Grade 1's Flower Bowl/Turf Classic
2011.................My(s).....Off...............$ 16,715,000.........10481
Note...off the turf except Grade 1's Flower Bowl/Turf Classic..
Notes
Intra state wagering for 2011 was just 1.8 million..That's by far the lowest.
Highest intra state off track handle 2005 at $5.029 million

Highest on track in the sample was 2011 $2.935 million
Lowest on track in the sample was 2008 $1.680
Highest out of state handle was 2005 at $13.812 million
Lowest out of state handle was in 2002 At $10.181 million
Looking at the nearly 60% drop in attendance between 2007 and 2008, '09 we can blame inclement weather. I also believe there was a significant hike in bridge and tunnel tolls in that time period. Also, the price of gas in 2009 was almost $3 per gallon up from just under $2 in 2007.
No doubt the betting is still there. The people are staying away in droves. That's bad.
I stand down from my soap box.

[thespaah]

The mystery voucher worked until the employees started stealing them.
Al-i said they should havr advertised the tvg girls because they actually got more attention than the horses in the paddock.
They really started stealing them? Unreal.

[Jasonm921]

Were there giveaways prior to 2008? I remember 2007 and cant recall if there was a giveaway but that is some drop off.

[dilanesp]

It's interesting that we have 2 threads on the front page complaining about the state takeover of NYRA, and then this thread about NYRA's inability to draw anybody to a very nice racetrack adjacent to a city with a population of 8 million, for a very good racecard with several stakes and a number of good races. The two facts are at least somewhat related.

I have no confidence whatsoever that the State of New York will do anything other than screw up horse racing. But nonetheless, NYRA should have actually lost its charter 30 years ago. That organization presided over the destruction of horse racing as a spectator sport in New York City, and then was allowed to continue to manage the corpse for the ensuing decades after doing it, because of its political connections and skid-greasing.

Even the 17,000 that Santa Anita drew for its card isn't really that great. But at least it's something.

[PaceAdvantage]

Even the 17,000 that Santa Anita drew for its card isn't really that great. But at least it's something.What kind of OTB system exists within driving distance of Santa Anita?

Even though NYC OTB closed, there are still OTBs all over Long Island (where Belmont is located)...does this factor into your criticism?

[bigmack]

What kind of OTB system exists within driving distance of Santa Anita?

Even though NYC OTB closed, there are still OTBs all over Long Island (where Belmont is located)...does this factor into your criticism?
Bit, and I mean, a small bit of a point you have, but the MAIN reason was opening Sat @ SA. Big splash.

Attendance by BEL/SA Date:

Sun 30: 3257 Sun 30: 5524
Sat 29: 8639 Sat 29: 17565
27: 2321 28th: 5775

-----

How many computers are in or around ANY track? Even octogenarians can figure out how to wag online.

[thespaah]

What kind of OTB system exists within driving distance of Santa Anita?

Even though NYC OTB closed, there are still OTBs all over Long Island (where Belmont is located)...does this factor into your criticism?
I went to the California OTB site. Unless I am a complete dummy, there is no tab on which to click so that one may find one of the 30 OTB shops in the State.
All the site says is there are 30 of those OTB shops. Where they are is anyone's guess.

[cj's dad]

Great day of racing.I was surpised small crowd on a huge day of racing.

Word got out that Just Ralph and I were not attending.

[elhelmete]

I went to the California OTB site. Unless I am a complete dummy, there is no tab on which to click so that one may find one of the 30 OTB shops in the State.
All the site says is there are 30 of those OTB shops. Where they are is anyone's guess.

http://www.calracing.com/racetracks/

[OTM Al]

Word got out that Just Ralph and I were not attending.

The rain noticed as well and thus did not show up either :)

[Tom]

Word got out that Just Ralph and I were not attending.

I turned the car around just outside Albany and headed back home when I got the tweet!

[Pine Tree Lane]

Were there giveaways prior to 2008? I remember 2007 and cant recall if there was a giveaway but that is some drop off.

Wasn't Super Saturday run on a Sunday that year? I think the winners were: Curlin, English Channel, Lahoudood, Fabulous Strike, Unbridled Belle.

[thespaah]

The rain noticed as well and thus did not show up either :) :lol:

[thespaah]

Wasn't Super Saturday run on a Sunday that year? I think the winners were: Curlin, English Channel, Lahoudood, Fabulous Strike, Unbridled Belle.
Don't know specifically, but there were a few in the sample that were held on a Sunday.
I will say this. I think it is time to move the Turf Classic and Flower Bowl to earlier in September. Since 2004 those two events when run on JCGC day were contested on "off" conditions. Who the hell wants to see some of the best turfers in the States run a mile and a half in an hour and a half...With half the fields being scratched...
Since 2004 inclusive here is the score sheet on that.
2004 turf Soft
2005 thru 2007 firm
2008 thru 2011 all races taken off except for the Grade 1's...Which were run on "yielding" surfaces...Judging by the finishing times, the turf was a cranberry bog.

[MickJ26]

Two things, for what it's worth:
The year Funny Cide won the Gold Cup, the place was wall to wall people. So, the presence of a "name horse" can affect attendance. The closest thing to a name horse this year was Royal Delta, a superstar, but, doesn't have the same popularity that Funny Cide did.

On NYRA's Facebook page, for anybody who so chose, and I did, if you printed out their Gold Cup picture, you could redeem it for a free package that included a voucher for a hot dog, soda, program and admission on your next visit.

I know it's not much, but, at least it's something. Generally speaking I agree that 8700 is sad state of affairs.

[PaceAdvantage]

I wonder if attendance would suffer at Santa Anita if they were under the kind of attack that NYRA is from the state and from the press? But lets get down to what really counts...the bottom line:

Belmont on Saturday?

11 races, 89 betting interests = $20.15M in handle

Santa Anita?

11 races, 113 betting interests = $14.3M in handle

I think a track will take handle over attendance any day of the week.

Belmont wins. Again.

[the little guy]

The year Funny Cide won the Gold Cup, the place was wall to wall people. So, the presence of a "name horse" can affect attendance. The closest thing to a name horse this year was Royal Delta, a superstar, but, doesn't have the same popularity that Funny Cide did.


There were 16,508 people in attendance for Funny Cide's 2004 Jockey Club Gold Cup win.

That would be wall-to-wall in my apartment....but not Belmont.

[thespaah]

I wonder if attendance would suffer at Santa Anita if they were under the kind of attack that NYRA is from the state and from the press? But lets get down to what really counts...the bottom line:

Belmont on Saturday?

11 races, 89 betting interests = $20.15M in handle

Santa Anita?

11 races, 113 betting interests = $14.3M in handle

I think a track will take handle over attendance any day of the week.

Belmont wins. Again.
Handle is important. However, if people stop going to the track and new fans are not introduced to the game, the game dies.
Can we stipulate the average age of a horse player in the US is over 50?
Ok...so you and I agree that handle is more important than track attendance.
MY problem with the situation is if fewer people are becoming interested in the game and let's face it, they will go to the track to learn before they become on-line players..the source of what 75% of handle, in 20 to 25 years, there won't be anyone left to bet on the races.
With that in mind, attendance takes on a whole new level of importance.

[usedtolovetvg]

It's a new day and age. It is most important getting new blood in the sport. Their modus operandi is the hand held device through the internet. Racing should be attacking this demographic and their mindset. They will go to the venue but that is not as important as getting them involved in the sport.

[thespaah]

There were 16,508 people in attendance for Funny Cide's 2004 Jockey Club Gold Cup win.

That would be wall-to-wall in my apartment....but not Belmont.
I wanted to take a look back into the 80's when I went to Belmont it seemed like every Saturday for the Fall meet, but Equibase historic charts do not go back that far in time. I swear that at least 25,000 to 30,000 were at Belmont for every JCGC and Marlboro Cup day in the 80's.

[westny]

There were 16,508 people in attendance for Funny Cide's 2004 Jockey Club Gold Cup win.

That would be wall-to-wall in my apartment....but not Belmont.

I know your handicapping is top-notch...but you must live in one of those multi-floor penthouses in the Trump Tower IF you could even fit :eek: 16k into your apartment...no matter how squished...

[Jasonm921]

They really started stealing them? Unreal.

http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/16972/nyras-mystery-voucher-promo-stopped-mid-stream

[thespaah]

I know your handicapping is top-notch...but you must live in one of those multi-floor penthouses in the Trump Tower IF you could even fit :eek: 16k into your apartment...no matter how squished...
I had a super bowl party in my 1700 square foot house. There were 48,306 people in attendance. Or was it just that the mess they left made it seem like that it was that many.
Based on that 16k in an apartment is a drop in the bucket.

[MickJ26]

Well, if he can get SAM machines installed in his apartment, I say party at Andy's.

[thespaah]

Well, if he can get SAM machines installed in his apartment, I say party at Andy's.
WOO HOO!!!!
So whadda say there Little Guy?!!!!!

[dilanesp]

Handle is important. However, if people stop going to the track and new fans are not introduced to the game, the game dies.
Can we stipulate the average age of a horse player in the US is over 50?
Ok...so you and I agree that handle is more important than track attendance.
MY problem with the situation is if fewer people are becoming interested in the game and let's face it, they will go to the track to learn before they become on-line players..the source of what 75% of handle, in 20 to 25 years, there won't be anyone left to bet on the races.
With that in mind, attendance takes on a whole new level of importance.

I'd go further. Handle is an excuse used by incompetents who can't get people to come to the track. You can't sell a betting dollar a hot dog or parking, and tracks only get a small cut of the takeout anyway.

The fact that NYRA fans always point to handle is proof that NYRA is a failure. If you are successful, you will have attendance figures to point to. NYRA does in Saratoga, but not at the NYC tracks except one day a year.

[Al Gobbi]

I'd go further. Handle is an excuse used by incompetents who can't get people to come to the track. You can't sell a betting dollar a hot dog or parking, and tracks only get a small cut of the takeout anyway.

The fact that NYRA fans always point to handle is proof that NYRA is a failure. If you are successful, you will have attendance figures to point to. NYRA does in Saratoga, but not at the NYC tracks except one day a year.

Tracks and Horsemen do not get much off of off-track handle, you need on-track business to make money. I'm not saying you need 15k people a day everyday but you can't keep getting smallish crowds and little money bet ontrack (see PARX) and expect to survive long term unless the business model changes.

[dilanesp]

What kind of OTB system exists within driving distance of Santa Anita?

Even though NYC OTB closed, there are still OTBs all over Long Island (where Belmont is located)...does this factor into your criticism?

Hollywood Park. Xpressbet. TVG. Twin Spires. The Commerce Casino racebook.

Seriously, NYRA drew fine in the 70's with a boatload of OTB outlets in New York. You have to be totally incompetent to not draw anyone from an 8 million person city + several more million metropolitan area to see great racing at a great facility. Unfortunately for New York fans, you have exactly that and have for decades.

[the little guy]

I'd go further. Handle is an excuse used by incompetents who can't get people to come to the track. You can't sell a betting dollar a hot dog or parking, and tracks only get a small cut of the takeout anyway.

The fact that NYRA fans always point to handle is proof that NYRA is a failure. If you are successful, you will have attendance figures to point to. NYRA does in Saratoga, but not at the NYC tracks except one day a year.

This may be the most poorly informed post I have seen in some time.

So NYRA is smart during Saratoga but dumb the rest of the year. Same people, but their IQs just drop once they head below the Catskills?

People that measure racetracks success by on-track attendance figures are badly confused. If you want to measure attendance, do it in virtual terms, as customers no longer have to go to a track to watch and bet their races. With simulcasting and in-home wagering, with races available on television and on-line, the number of " attendees " at the NYRA tracks are likely over 50,000 on any raceday and frequently at least twice that much. These numbers are clearly correlated by the handle figures, which contrary to your remarks, are how tracks make money, and fund their purse accounts.

[MickJ26]

This may be the most poorly informed post I have seen in some time.

So NYRA is smart during Saratoga but dumb the rest of the year. Same people, but their IQs just drop once they head below the Catskills?

People that measure racetracks success by on-track attendance figures are badly confused. If you want to measure attendance, do it in virtual terms, as customers no longer have to go to a track to watch and bet their races. With simulcasting and in-home wagering, with races available on television and on-line, the number of " attendees " at the NYRA tracks are likely over 50,000 on any raceday and frequently at least twice that much. These numbers are clearly correlated by the handle figures, which contrary to your remarks, are how tracks make money, and fund their purse accounts.


With all due respect, Andy, handle is only part of the issue. We all became fans because our fathers, or somebody close to us, brought us to the racetrack. If my father gambled on line, assuming they had it back then, instead of actually going to the racetrack, then I most likely wouldn't be a racing fan now. All sources handle is the most important thing in the here and now, but, doesn't necessarily ensure the next generation of future gamblers.

[thespaah]

This may be the most poorly informed post I have seen in some time.

So NYRA is smart during Saratoga but dumb the rest of the year. Same people, but their IQs just drop once they head below the Catskills?

People that measure racetracks success by on-track attendance figures are badly confused. If you want to measure attendance, do it in virtual terms, as customers no longer have to go to a track to watch and bet their races. With simulcasting and in-home wagering, with races available on television and on-line, the number of " attendees " at the NYRA tracks are likely over 50,000 on any raceday and frequently at least twice that much. These numbers are clearly correlated by the handle figures, which contrary to your remarks, are how tracks make money, and fund their purse accounts.
I must disagree. In my opinion, people newly drawn to the game with get their initial experiences at the racetrack itself. It is only after a period of time they may begin wagering on line or otherwise off track.
Empty grandstands is not a promising outlook.
There is a need for infusion of new fans of the game.

[dilanesp]

This may be the most poorly informed post I have seen in some time.

So NYRA is smart during Saratoga but dumb the rest of the year. Same people, but their IQs just drop once they head below the Catskills?

People that measure racetracks success by on-track attendance figures are badly confused. If you want to measure attendance, do it in virtual terms, as customers no longer have to go to a track to watch and bet their races. With simulcasting and in-home wagering, with races available on television and on-line, the number of " attendees " at the NYRA tracks are likely over 50,000 on any raceday and frequently at least twice that much. These numbers are clearly correlated by the handle figures, which contrary to your remarks, are how tracks make money, and fund their purse accounts.

NYRA doesn't run Saratoga very well. (Extending the season was dumb.) But Saratoga is harder to screw up.

[thespaah]

NYRA doesn't run Saratoga very well. (Extending the season was dumb.) But Saratoga is harder to screw up.
Extending the meet to six weeks was a good idea. One dark day per week is not so much.

[alhattab]

This may be the most poorly informed post I have seen in some time.

So NYRA is smart during Saratoga but dumb the rest of the year. Same people, but their IQs just drop once they head below the Catskills?

People that measure racetracks success by on-track attendance figures are badly confused. If you want to measure attendance, do it in virtual terms, as customers no longer have to go to a track to watch and bet their races. With simulcasting and in-home wagering, with races available on television and on-line, the number of " attendees " at the NYRA tracks are likely over 50,000 on any raceday and frequently at least twice that much. These numbers are clearly correlated by the handle figures, which contrary to your remarks, are how tracks make money, and fund their purse accounts.

Andy- arguments aside, have you seen an on-track per capita like was reported on Gold Cup day? If I recall it epwas $340 or so. I've never seen Anything like that.

[the little guy]

Andy- arguments aside, have you seen an on-track per capita like was reported on Gold Cup day? If I recall it epwas $340 or so. I've never seen Anything like that.

I think it was over $350 today.

[thespaah]

I think it was over $350 today.
That tells me whomever is in attendance is betting with both fists.

[alhattab]

I think it was over $350 today.

I guess I haven't looked in awhile. For the Spring/Summer meet ex Belmont Day Per capita was about $300 and small change, and that's just on the live product.