Replacement Refs.

[Zippy Chippy]

I have a feeling next week the regular refs will have to be back. There has to be such an uproar after yesterdays games. I have no idea what these refs are looking at. Not knowing all the rules, overturning calls when there's clearly no evidence to overturn them.

[headhawg]

I thought that the NFL and refs had another meeting yesterday, and Peter King reported that they were still miles apart. The replacements have their schedules through Week 5 the last I heard.

[Tom]

NFL short of money this year?:rolleyes:

As it is, they are showing no respect for their product or their fans, who pay through the nose. Obviously, the job requires some skills other than mobility.

[mountainman]

It seems disingenuous for the same commentators and sports writers that last year decried the games increasing sanitization to now complain abt replacement refs calling it loose. Let's get real: Several factions are PRAYING for a serious injury that would both create a big story and make the arrogant nfl seem culpable.

[cj's dad]

I assumed that the replacements were NCAA D1 refs. A friend told me that he heard on ESPN several weeks ago that D1 refs cannot ref NFL games for a variety of reasons. Apparently, what we are seeing here are D2, D3, and possibly high school referees.

Does anyone know if that is correct ?

[cj]

I assumed that the replacements were NCAA D1 refs. A friend told me that he heard on ESPN several weeks ago that D1 refs cannot ref NFL games for a variety of reasons. Apparently, what we are seeing here are D2, D3, and possibly high school referees.

Does anyone know if that is correct ?

That is correct. D1 refs aren't going to give up their jobs to do a temp gig for the NFL.

[Marshall Bennett]

Could be retired NFL refs or refs previously cut by the league.

[cj]

Could be retired NFL refs or refs previously cut by the league.

I don't think that is the case. I find it very hard to believe retired refs would not support those still working, especially when the biggest issue is that the NFL is trying to take away the same pension they enjoy.

[PhantomOnTour]

I wonder if the new Madden13 game, set to be released soon, will have replacement refs and huge delays :D

It took almost 25mins to run four plays in the Vikes-Niners game because of challenges, on-field ref meetings, and general confusion among the officiating crew.

[Tom]

Madden was in the stands yesterday, maybe taking notes.......:D

Yesterday's game was so long....the Vikings started out in their new uniforms, but by the end of the game, they were their throw-back uniforms!

[Valuist]

I assumed that the replacements were NCAA D1 refs. A friend told me that he heard on ESPN several weeks ago that D1 refs cannot ref NFL games for a variety of reasons. Apparently, what we are seeing here are D2, D3, and possibly high school referees.

Does anyone know if that is correct ?

I think this is the real problem. These are NAIA refs, and the speed of the game is so much faster in the NFL. If they could get SEC, or Big 10 or 12 refs, there probably wouldn't be any issue at all.

We talked about the 2 hours to play the first half of last Monday night's game. Have to think a number of people turned their TV's off, or to a different schedule. If ratings slip, the NFL will start to feel the heat.

[Stillriledup]

At what point do the replacement refs just become 'the refs'?

Seems like the artist formerly known as the replacement refs are just the plain old refs now. These are the refs, i think its a good idea to get use to them, cut them some slack, we all know there would be a learning curve, if coaches and players stop yelling at the refs like they are 5 year old children, maybe these guys can concentrate on their jobs and learn how to get better as the weeks go on.

Im not sure any of us thought these new guys were going to come in and not make mistakes.

These guys are here to stay, lets make the best of it.

[Rookies]

That is correct. D1 refs aren't going to give up their jobs to do a temp gig for the NFL.

That's not the only reason.

They aren't stepping up because they don't want to be seen as scabbing and therefore blackballed by the regulars once they get back.

However, I don't EVER recall the # 1 team of Collingsworth & Michaels absolutely smashing the refs live and during the prime time telecast, as they did last night. They were ruthless in their criticism and it's not the fault of the replacements, who clearly DON'T know the game, nor have the savvy and aauthgority to stand up to Pros.

But, putting on my competence hat, that doesn't mean I want the Regulars back, either. I ahve long thought they were out of their depth in this incredibly fast, moving game.

In 2004, I wrote to a Buffalo Talk Radio Sports Show as follows:

NFL Standards for Officials
Of course, there aren't any ! These old, fat, blind septuagenarians simply can't cut it in a high speed game.

For the past decade, this is my solution.

1) Hire full time officials @ $100k per annum.
2) EVERY new hire must be a recent Phyzz Ed Grad in great shape and
preferably played NCAA Divsion 1 Football.
3) Serious Knowledge AND conditioning testing before hiring.
4) Serious weekly/ Yearly evaluations of performance. Failures are FIRED !
5) Digital Cameras everywhere, including the sidelines and goal line.
6) Paid spotters to watch the cameras VERY instant.

We don't need Walmart greeters!

It's a multi billion dollar Biz-Game. Start acting like it and pay the freight!

[sandpit]

I had no dog in the Ravens-Patriots game last night, but that entire thing was a joke. If I was Belicheck, I wouldn't care how much I got fined, I would publicly blast them all week. They just don't get it, and when the games are extra-spirited, such as Sunday or Monday night, they seem even more clueless.

[dav4463]

At what point do the replacement refs just become 'the refs'?

Seems like the artist formerly known as the replacement refs are just the plain old refs now. These are the refs, i think its a good idea to get use to them, cut them some slack, we all know there would be a learning curve, if coaches and players stop yelling at the refs like they are 5 year old children, maybe these guys can concentrate on their jobs and learn how to get better as the weeks go on.

Im not sure any of us thought these new guys were going to come in and not make mistakes.

These guys are here to stay, lets make the best of it.


Voice of reason won't work with the NFL. I like your thinking. I am a high school basketball referee. I can only imagine how many calls I would miss in an NBA game and it wouldn't be because I can't referee. It would be the pressure, lack of respect from coaches and players, and the fact that I was just thrown in.....like you said....without a learning curve.

These guys know the game. They WILL get better, but if you are sticking with them....give them a chance and treat them with the same respect as the regular refs.

We don't throw a newbie into a high school game without a veteran crew around him to help him out. These guys are just thrown into the freakin' NFL!!!

Give them a break!

[kingfin66]

At what point do the replacement refs just become 'the refs'?

Seems like the artist formerly known as the replacement refs are just the plain old refs now. These are the refs, i think its a good idea to get use to them, cut them some slack, we all know there would be a learning curve, if coaches and players stop yelling at the refs like they are 5 year old children, maybe these guys can concentrate on their jobs and learn how to get better as the weeks go on.

Im not sure any of us thought these new guys were going to come in and not make mistakes.

These guys are here to stay, lets make the best of it.

Do you just spew this shit intentionally to be provocative, or are you really just the ****ing idiot that you appear to be in every thread in which you post?

[cj]

Give them a break!

I'm not for one second blaming the refs themselves. I'm blaming the NFL for this situation. That said, these guys seem to be getting more gunshy each week.

[Rookies]

I'm not for one second blaming the refs themselves. I'm blaming the NFL for this situation. That said, these guys seem to be getting more gunshy each week.

TERRIBLE calls tonight, with Gruden openly asking when the owners are to intervene. There is no way fans, Coaches & players will accept refs not ready for prime time.

ALL on the NFL to cut through the b.s. and get a deal.

[Striker]

Voice of reason won't work with the NFL. I like your thinking. I am a high school basketball referee. I can only imagine how many calls I would miss in an NBA game and it wouldn't be because I can't referee. It would be the pressure, lack of respect from coaches and players, and the fact that I was just thrown in.....like you said....without a learning curve.

These guys know the game. They WILL get better, but if you are sticking with them....give them a chance and treat them with the same respect as the regular refs.

I understand what you are saying. The problem is that most of these refs haven't improved at all IMO in 3 weeks now. Hopefully they do improve, but how can you justify giving these refs the same respect as the regular ones when you are dealing with refs that will make comments like the one to Leshon McCoy about "I need you for my fantasy team." I question the level of common sense and professionalism here. They have to earn that respect from the players and coaches by the way they officiate the game, and they are not on the right path to getting it.

[kingfin66]

Interesting end to the game. This will be the game that ends the lockout. If not, heaven help us all.

[Rookies]

OMG...

They can't have these Refs one more week and I have no skin in that game.

What a crock!!!:ThmbDown:

[Striker]

A few more plays that end up deciding games like this, and the NFL will be forced to cave in to the regular refs. That was the worst Off pass interference I have ever seen by one of Seattle's WR with a push in the back, and it looked like GB came down with the ball also.

[horses4courses]

Total farce :ThmbDown:

I'm a Bear's fan.....always glad to see GB lose...but that's just awful.

[Rookies]

"This entire fiasco of a game"

"No way Green Bay should have to go home after a decison like that."

[Valuist]

Right now, how much credibility does the NFL have? The PI/non-PI calls were among the worst I've ever seen. And how is the final play not an INT? Refs were intimidated by the loud Seattle crowd.

[Dahoss9698]

Interesting end to the game. This will be the game that ends the lockout. If not, heaven help us all.

If I was the Packers and the rest of the teams, I'd refuse to play anymore until the real refs are back.

I've been willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt...but no more after this weekend.

[Ocala Mike]

OMG! I'm just a casual FB fan, and my wife even less, but we both just watched that play in real time (not the replay). She said to me that #81 pushed the other guy, and I said don't worry, he didn't catch the ball anyway.
GB will win.

OMG!

[cj]

Brutal...three flag football refs couldn't be worse than this.

[elysiantraveller]

Based on the rule I think that was a touchdown. Simultaneous possession goes to the offense... Of course I'm a Lions fan and am used to getting jobbed by the normal officials.

At least this will end the strike.

[NJ Stinks]

Yea, I haven't played the game in 30 years but how easy is it to knock down a pass?

GB was screwed but why the DB tried to catch the ball in the first place is beyond me.

[delayjf]

I've been willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt...but no more after this weekend.

Me to, but that was bad. I though instant replay would save their bacon, but not so.

I don't think that was duel possession. The Seattle receiver had the ball in his body while the SS reciever had to reach around him to grab it - not duel possession IMO.

[Dahoss9698]

How much money roughly do you think this robbery (which is what it is) cost bettors across the country?

[cj]

Based on the rule I think that was a touchdown. Simultaneous possession goes to the offense... Of course I'm a Lions fan and am used to getting jobbed by the normal officials.

At least this will end the strike.

There is no way that was simultaneous possession. The Packer clearly had control, and then Tate reached in and grabbed the ball, barely. I have no idea how that wasn't overturned by the replay.

[cj]

Yea, I haven't played the game in 30 years but how easy is it to knock down a pass?

GB was screwed but why the DB tried to catch the ball in the first place is beyond me.

This was a little different. He was behind the receivers and knocking it down may not have worked. The guy caught the ball. The refs screwed it up, tough to blame the DB.

[elysiantraveller]

There is no way that was simultaneous possession. The Packer clearly had control, and then Tate reached in and grabbed the ball, barely. I have no idea how that wasn't overturned by the replay.

Both guys went to the ground with their arms on the ball... Usually on the ground it sorts itself out but this time it didn't. The refs were absolutely terrible but the touchdown certainly wasn't their worst call of the night.

[dav4463]

I read on an officials forum that Tate was the first to come down with hands on the ball and BOTH feet on the ground. Since it was ruled a simultaneous possession, then it is a touchdown because defender still had one foot in the air. If the defender had been ruled to catch the ball first, it would have been an interception.

[johnhannibalsmith]

To think that the NHL took hell for Donutgate back in '88 immediately for letting the scabs ref one stinking game literally at the last minute... and they didn't even really do such a bad job...

Oh well, maybe there are some NFL fans in the horse racing industry that will draw some parallel to how having hack officiating can turn people off from both the sporting and gambling ends of the game.

[cj]

Both guys went to the ground with their arms on the ball... Usually on the ground it sorts itself out but this time it didn't. The refs were absolutely terrible but the touchdown certainly wasn't their worst call of the night.

I disagree, because that isn't a judgement call. Obviously it can be a tough call in real time (though not in this case), but not with replay. One guy clearly had the ball first. Every player, commentator, and ex-ref has said the same after the game. It shouldn't even be open for debate it was that obvious.

[elysiantraveller]

I read on an officials forum that Tate was the first to come down with hands on the ball and BOTH feet on the ground. Since it was ruled a simultaneous possession, then it is a touchdown because defender still had one foot in the air. If the defender had been ruled to catch the ball first, it would have been an interception.

It was hardly the most egregious call/noncall of the game. We've all seen regular refs get stuff like that wrong... If they had ruled it the other way the mother ship would have taken the other side.

They suck but at least IMO that was close to a 50/50 call.

[cj]

I read on an officials forum that Tate was the first to come down with hands on the ball and BOTH feet on the ground. Since it was ruled a simultaneous possession, then it is a touchdown because defender still had one foot in the air. If the defender had been ruled to catch the ball first, it would have been an interception.

This isn't relevant because this is not simultaneous possession. That is the big mistake, saying that it was. The guy with the best view was actually calling it a touchback, i.e. interception. How it went wrong from there is anyone's guess.

[cj]

It was hardly the most egregious call/noncall of the game. We've all seen regular refs get stuff like that wrong... If they had ruled it the other way the mother ship would have taken the other side.

They suck but at least IMO that was close to a 50/50 call.

Like I said, getting it wrong in real time is one thing, but inexcusable on replay. The only explanation is the guy looking at the replay didn't know the rule, and didn't ask the assistant that is in place for these guys. The review was way too fast.

You can say it was a close call, but it wasn't. It was a clear cut gaffe.

[elysiantraveller]

I disagree, because that isn't a judgement call. Obviously it can be a tough call in real time (though not in this case), but not with replay. One guy clearly had the ball first. Every player, commentator, and ex-ref has said the same after the game. It shouldn't even be open for debate it was that obvious.

And that guy was still in the air as a Lion fan I'm pretty familiar with "process of a catch." This exact same call happened last year week 16 between the Lions/Packers. Announcers loved Jordi Nelson for "fighting for the ball all the way to the ground."

It's not a black/white play.

[cj]

It's not a black/white play.
This one was. At no point did Tate have possession, simultaneous or otherwise. I've yet to hear a single person outside the PA board take your side, and most I've heard are a lot more knowledgeable about this than I am.

[menifee]

Like I said, getting it wrong in real time is one thing, but inexcusable on replay. The only explanation is the guy looking at the replay didn't know the rule, and didn't ask the assistant that is in place for these guys. The review was way too fast.

You can say it was a close call, but it wasn't. It was a clear cut gaffe.

Some are saying the issue of simultaneous possession it is not reviewable. Clearly an interception, but not sure they could have reversed it after they reviewed it.

[dav4463]

From the front view, I can see how it was called simultaneous. They both had both hands on the ball at the same time intitially. Tate let one hand go off the ball for a second, but then had both hands back on the ball as they hit the ground. Tate hit the ground first with both feet...by rule "completing the catch".

[cj]

From the front view, I can see how it was called simultaneous. They both had both hands on the ball at the same time intitially. Tate let one hand go off the ball for a second, but then had both hands back on the ball as they hit the ground. Tate hit the ground first with both feet...by rule "completing the catch".

I have no idea where you see them having both hands on the ball "initially". "Eventually", maybe.

[Ocala Mike]

What about the blatant offensive PI by #81? Is it "anything goes" down by the goal line? Is that not reviewable on replay, because it was CLEAR?

[cj]

What about the blatant offensive PI by #81? Is it "anything goes" down by the goal line? Is that not reviewable on replay, because it was CLEAR?
PI is never reviewable. Games would take a week!

Below pretty much shows it was never in Tate's possession.

www.therightscoop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/definitive_catch.jpg

[Zippy Chippy]

This isn't even football. I feel like I'm watching a Saturday night live slit when watching this games. Refs are like the keystone cops.

[Stillriledup]

Voice of reason won't work with the NFL. I like your thinking. I am a high school basketball referee. I can only imagine how many calls I would miss in an NBA game and it wouldn't be because I can't referee. It would be the pressure, lack of respect from coaches and players, and the fact that I was just thrown in.....like you said....without a learning curve.

These guys know the game. They WILL get better, but if you are sticking with them....give them a chance and treat them with the same respect as the regular refs.

We don't throw a newbie into a high school game without a veteran crew around him to help him out. These guys are just thrown into the freakin' NFL!!!

Give them a break!

Thanks, appreciate the kudos.

So far i've seen a LOT of whining, crying and complaining from coaches, players and media about the refs. Supposedly, the impasse between the former refs and league is still going on and doesnt to seem to be close to being settled.

Time for a chill pill for everyone, time to settle down and let the refs get thru their learning curve, nobody said it was going to be easy, everyone is expecting perfection overnight, that's unrealistic. Yelling at the refs like they are your 5 year old son isnt going to solve anything, its only going to place more pressure on these guys to make the right calls.

Coaches are yelling at these refs in a much more animated and angry way than they ever yelled at the refs who used to work for the NFL. You would never see a guy going apeshit yelling at Ed Hochuli or Mike Carey, but they yell at the current refs like they're yelling at their young children, its really disrespectful and i hate seeing that type of behavior by coaches, there's no reason to disrespect these refs, they're doing the best they can.

[Marshall Bennett]

Conclusive evidence is the key. Had both referees called it an interception Green Bay would have won. I also believe, however, that had Green Bay been the home team the review call would have gone the other way.
The Seattle win won me my small pool against 11 others so I'm happy with the outcome :), had it gone the other say I wouldn't be.

[Teach]

This is turning into the "Keystone Cops." A joke! A travesty! Thank goodness I just bet on the ponies. If I had action on that game and lost because of that call, I'd be tearing my hair out - what little I have left.

No, I didn't stay up to watch the game. Frankly, I could have cared less. I live in the Boston area, so the only time I stay up to watch late games is if the Patriots are playing.

So I wake up this morning, turn to my favorite sports talk show and all I hear is the "Hail Mary" catch in the endzone. A "walk off" TD.

Well, I watched the replay -- a few times. No "ifs," "ands" or "buts" about it. I have no rooting interest. I could give a rat's ass who wins that game. Bottom line: interception. No simultaneous catch. No tie goes to the runner. M.D. Jennings, #43, had clearly interecepted the ball. Oh, a second later, Golden Tate sticks his mitts on the football.

As an afterthought, the "Johnny-on-the-spot" refs come running over - a day late and a dollar short! They look at each other like "you make the call, no you make the call!" They finally, almost in unison, raise both their arms and signal: Touchdown!

Like I said, I could care less. But, these replacement refs are turning this professional football into a travesty. Hey, if I did bet on these games or played fantasy football, I'd be sayin': "Fuhgettaqboutit!"

My chief point: These refs are inept. As a former teacher, it reminded me of the times when an inept sub was brought in to fill in for a regular teacher. All Hell broke loose. It was a free-for-all. The inmates were running the asylum.

Nuff Said.

[sammy the sage]

Awesome baby...can't wait for a Ref. to get KNOCKED out cold... :lol: ...


I kid, I kid,..it's a joke...well the whole nfl thing anyways!

[Stillriledup]

Why did the Packers player NOT just knock the ball to the ground? Arent you taught in 5th grade to knock it down? The guy tried to be a hero and add one more interception to his totals, he never realized that his fundamentally unsound play would result in THIS.

But, its all good, because all the blame is going to the refs and not the player who just had to knock the ball to the ground. Swat it down.

I dont remember this same exact 'outrage' when Ed Hochuli screwed the Chargers a bunch of years ago.

I think that the Seattle player had enough of the ball to make it a 'tie goes to the runner' situtation but i could completely see if you felt that the Packers player had the ball. At any rate, if you think that refs make mistakes and this was a mistake, i respect your opinion, but there's no need to go batshit crazy over this. The Media, fans and players are going to all have a cow....and like i said, i dont remember this same outrage when Ed Hochuli cost the Chargers a playoff berth a bunch of years ago.

[Valuist]

Why did the Packers player NOT just knock the ball to the ground? Arent you taught in 5th grade to knock it down? The guy tried to be a hero and add one more interception to his totals, he never realized that his fundamentally unsound play would result in THIS.

But, its all good, because all the blame is going to the refs and not the player who just had to knock the ball to the ground. Swat it down.



Lets go back to Sunday. Its final play of the game time, and the Lions throw a Hail Mary. The Titan deflects the ball but it ends up in the arms of Lion WR Titus Young for a touchdown. When one is airborne, its hard to gauge where a deflected ball is going to go. If one is standing or jumping straight up, yes deflecting down becomes much easier. Outstretched, possibly leaning back while airborne and fighting amongst 4 players (including teammates), I can understand the defender not wanting to deflect the ball.

Having said all that, word is the NFL is reviewing the finish. Could they overturn the call? Would be unprecedented. But probably warranted.

[Rookies]

The NFL & Goodell are going to receive a constant drumbeat of angry criticism all day long today, it would appear. Let's see if they can stand the heat.

"Sometime Tuesday afternoon, after an emergency session of some NFL owners subcommittee and a quick folding in front of a federal labor mediator, commissioner Roger Goodell should step in front of a podium, declare the lockout of the league's referees over and apologize to the coaches, players, fans and replacement officials for the last three weeks of football.
It's the owners who are locking out the refs and must sign off on a contract. And it is the owners who employ Goodell. But at some point, Goodell has to lead his bosses. That's the mark of a great commissioner, and make no mistake, Roger Goodell believes he is a great commissioner.

A great commissioner doesn't stand around and let his league continue on as a laughingstock."

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nfl--nfl-commissioner-roger-goodell-needs-to-clean-up-officiating-mess--hellip-and-issue-a-public-apology.html

"Can we now, in unison and without debate, agree that the NFL's plan to replace its locked-out officials has failed spectacularly and embarrassingly, undermining the credibility of the league and -- after two months of nervous anticipation -- directly impacting the outcome of a game?

That's the only possible reaction after watching the final play of the Seattle Seahawks (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/sea/seattle-seahawks)' 14-12 victory Monday night over the Green Bay Packers (http://espn.go.com/nfl/team/_/name/gb/green-bay-packers). I guess you can debate all the calls and potential mistakes that happened earlier in the game, from wildly inconsistent pass interference judgments to a failure to remove a "K" ball from the field on the Packers' failed two-point conversion in the fourth quarter. But there is no question that Monday night's crew of replacement officials erred repeatedly on the play in question and then lost control of the teams in one of the most chaotic scenes in recent NFL history."

http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/46789/nfl-got-what-it-deserved-but-does-it-care

[sammy the sage]

ahead a pay-off both sides?

[Rookies]

The Referee who made the call last night, was let go from... (waitforit)

THE LINGERIE LEAGUE!

:lol: :bang: :D

Dan Patrick Show...

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

[cj]

Why did the Packers player NOT just knock the ball to the ground? Arent you taught in 5th grade to knock it down? The guy tried to be a hero and add one more interception to his totals, he never realized that his fundamentally unsound play would result in THIS.



The better play, in 2012, is to catch the ball. Teams wait for other teams to try to knock it down and usually have a guy waiting to get it, like Sunday for the Lions and many other times over recent years. Even if knocking it down was the best play, how could he do it with two Seahawks in front of him?

[Dahoss9698]

I think that the Seattle player had enough of the ball to make it a 'tie goes to the runner' situtation but i could completely see if you felt that the Packers player had the ball. At any rate, if you think that refs make mistakes and this was a mistake, i respect your opinion, but there's no need to go batshit crazy over this. The Media, fans and players are going to all have a cow....and like i said, i dont remember this same outrage when Ed Hochuli cost the Chargers a playoff berth a bunch of years ago.

I know you're just looking for a reaction, but humor me here.

This mistake by the refs, and I'm putting it nicely cost the Packers the game. I realize all calls could have that impact, regardless of when they happen during the game. It just so happens when things happen at the end of the game we tend to focus on them.

But this one REALLY cost the Packers the game. Without a doubt, 100%. I'm sorry, but there is no way someone can look at that replay and say that it's not an interception. The only way that should NOT have been overturned is if it in fact cannot be overturned according to the rules.

Which leads us to the call itself. One guy calls it a TD, one indicates a stop in time, usually what you do for a touchback, which would indicate he thought INT. How about talking it over guys? Not to mention the guy that called it a TD had a better view and totally blew it. How about being in position to make the call. Did they not think it was going to be a hail mary?

These guys are in a tough spot. They are totally under qualified and out of their element. Sure, it's not fair to them, but who cares? They aren't the victims here. They agreed to do the job and are not doing it well.

It cost the Packers the game. 1 of 16 in a league where every game literally matters. It was estimated this mistake cost bettors worldwide anywhere from 150-250 million. http://twitter.com/darrenrovell

Now is the time to go batshit crazy. If not now, when?

[sammy the sage]

Now is the time to go batshit crazy. If not now, when?

Why....ratings will ACTUALLY go UP......long as nobody gets hurt seriously...then they'll have to cave...til then...not so much...

It's entertainment...

[cj]

Why....ratings will ACTUALLY go UP......long as nobody gets hurt seriously...then they'll have to cave...til then...not so much...

It's entertainment...

What do you call what happened to Hayward Bay?

[Teach]

Aretha Franklin said it best: R-E-S-P-E-C-T. What it comes down to is simple. That is that the players and coaches don't respect these guys. Oh, it's not their fault. The replacement refs are, by and large, overmatched. They're out of their element. If this were baseball, it's like a Single-A or Double-A player coming straight to the majors. They're a "fish out of water". These guys aren't even in the category of top-flight college officials, e.g., SEC, Big Ten, etc.

So, it all comes down to respect. No respect - a free for all. The "glue" that's keeping the game together is going, going, gone. Players may start trying "stuff" they ordinarily wouldn't think of doing. Somebody might needlessly get hurt. No, not the refs. I'm talking about the players. As things stand, these upcoming games are becoming more meaningless by the minute. If you're betting, it's becoming as guessing game. Make your own line. Foreget the players, find out who they refs are. What will they call; what won't they call.

More and more, the NFL isn't standing for the National Football League; it's beginning to stand for: "The National F*ck-Up League"

[hugh]

Thank you bad refs!!! Got to think these crap refs had something to do with my 5-0. How much are they getting paid? All of these dogs won straight up... think about how much money the 85% of the betting public lost on these games. Wouldn't be suprised if there is an investigation.

:faint:
Posted this Week:
"Minny +7 vs. SF: Only 15% of the public is on Minn plus the points. Let's see if we can another half a point (+7.5)and hammer it.
Titans +3.5 vs. Detroit: TRAAAAP! But not a top play because both teams are 0-2 ATS. Take Tenn plus the points for a unit or two.
Jags +3 vs Indy: Only 14% of the bets at the books are on Jacksonville. YET the line just shaved a half a point (it was +3.5). Smart money is hitting so Jacksonville is a very solid play this week.
Oakland +4 vs. Pitt: Oakland is only grabbing 14% of all bets. But smart money is all over them. Raiders +4 is the PLAY OF THE WEEK
Seattle +3 vs. Packers: A golden opportunity on Monday Night Football. Role whatever winnings you have after Sunday and take the SEAHAWKS and the points. I know it will be hard to pull the trigger but that's why it makes for such a terrific bet. Seattle will win outright. (smart money on them too)"

[Pace Cap'n]

Random musings...

How upset should the Packers be? They only scored TWELVE freaking points. Eight sacks in one half. How many NFL games is that going to win?

ESPN showed a bunch of clips of blown calls, all by "the best" officals. Anyone watch the Seahawks-Steelers super bowl? The Tigers "perfect game"? The Royals-Cardinals world series?j It happens.

Didja notice the two refs looking at each other like WTF? Then they both start to raise their arms at the same time and it looks to me like the TD guy thought the other one was going to signal TD also. He seemed to have a surprised look when he saw the waving arms. But it was too late.

Does anyone remember ever seeing so many across-the-league pass interference penalties? Not questionable calls, just no-doubt-about-it PI. Almost like players are being coached to interfere.

Lastly, if you like football and don't have the Red Zone, you need to get it. Like CJ said, exciting finishes across the board and you get to see them all.

[Marshall Bennett]

One would have to consider the amount of attention these referees are getting. Every average fan is looking harder than ever for mistakes. Last night was obvious and horrible. Have we always given the usual refs the same close inspection these are receiving? I don't think so.

[Striker]

I also believe, however, that had Green Bay been the home team the review call would have gone the other way.

Completely agree on that point.

[cj's dad]

NFL has issued a statement that last night's call was correct.

[Striker]

The NFL will continue to be the only winner here, as fines for players and coaches will be at an all time high if this continues. Fox and Del Rio were just hit for a total of $55k for verbal abuse against officials.

[duncan04]

The NFL will continue to be the only winner here, as fines for players and coaches will be at an all time high if this continues. Fox and Del Rio were just hit for a total of $55k for verbal abuse against officials.


They can use the $$ from the fines to bring back the real refs!!!

[cj]

NFL has issued a statement that last night's call was correct.

What else were they going to say. It clearly is not the right call, but no way will Goodell ever admit that and undermine his scabs.

[Striker]

NFL has issued a statement that last night's call was correct.
At least the NFL admitted that the refs missed the pass int. call though. :)

[PhantomOnTour]

Remember that old feature they used to run during the game called You Make The Call?

Maybe we should make the call.
Give America 3mins to vote with one of their 1,000 ways to communicate thru social media, march out Richard Dawson (or whomever is still alive that used to host that show)...thurvey thays!....it's a touchdown.

Problem solved...next issue!

[PhantomOnTour]

Heck, we're all yelling at the NFL to pay the regular refs what they're worth, and at the same time folks are yelling at the teachers in Chicago to go back to work.

Go figure

[Pace Cap'n]

Money is not the main issue with the refs. The league wants to set up a process for replacing under-performing officials, and their union doesn't want to hear any of it.

[Teach]

Sometimes, good things come out of bad outcomes. As a former history teacher, I’m reminded of President Woodrow Wilson as he left the White House in March, 1921. Wilson was a broken man; he had suffered a stroke on a cross-country trip to save his League of Nations. Both the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations had been rejected by the U.S. Senate. Yet, although Wilson acknowledged that America’s entry into The League of Nations had been rejected, he predicted that an even better world body was possible in future years.



Well, the NFL has a golden opportunity to make lemonade out of lemons. A chance to develop a whole new officiating scenario. The NFL can use what I call the “Eye In The Sky” concept. It would take some refining, but several cameras would be trained on the field of play. Some cameras would watch the line of scrimmage. Others would focus on the wide receivers, still others the on the secondary. In any event, each camera or groups of cameras had a specific officiating role. The cameras and the attendant officials could make the decisions from high above the stadium; the same decisions that are now made on the field of play. Oh, you need one or two officials, such as a head referee (convey decisions) and a line-judge (for ball placement). However, everything else, theoretically, could be made from “upstairs”.



Here’s how, in my estimation, it could work. First, green is the color. If the color green continues to flash on the banks of lights that surround, say the mezzanine level, of a stadium (they could be easily installed), everything’s cool. No infractions. However, a red light indicates an infraction. The red light could be quickly flashed, even before the play developed, if there were, say a dead-ball delay of game, illegal procesure, or offside. The ref down on the field could quickly announce it.



Other infractions could be spotted by the various “programmed” cameras. They would trained to spot penalties, e.g. pass interference, holding, illegal block in the back, etc. These could be quickly indicated after the play was over. There would certainly never be a question as to whether a field goal or point-after was good. The camera could act like the tennis “line-judge,” in-or-out camera and tell immediately whether the ball went through the uprights, or not.



Oh, it might take time to work out the kinks. But with modern technology available. Why not let the players down on the field decide the outcome.



As for Woodrow Wilson, he was right. Although we never joined the League of Nations, a better and more all-encompassing world body was founded at the end of World War II; it’s called The United Nations.

[cj]

Money is not the main issue with the refs. The league wants to set up a process for replacing under-performing officials, and their union doesn't want to hear any of it.

The regular refs certainly aren't without blame here. They defend even the worst of officials, no matter what. It isn't like those guys haven't made awful calls at times.

[PhantomOnTour]

Hey, we can all agree on this:

We want Golden Tate on our team
-that's a real, bona fide, tried n true football player right there. :ThmbUp:

[Stillriledup]

I know you're just looking for a reaction, but humor me here.

This mistake by the refs, and I'm putting it nicely cost the Packers the game. I realize all calls could have that impact, regardless of when they happen during the game. It just so happens when things happen at the end of the game we tend to focus on them.

But this one REALLY cost the Packers the game. Without a doubt, 100%. I'm sorry, but there is no way someone can look at that replay and say that it's not an interception. The only way that should NOT have been overturned is if it in fact cannot be overturned according to the rules.

Which leads us to the call itself. One guy calls it a TD, one indicates a stop in time, usually what you do for a touchback, which would indicate he thought INT. How about talking it over guys? Not to mention the guy that called it a TD had a better view and totally blew it. How about being in position to make the call. Did they not think it was going to be a hail mary?

These guys are in a tough spot. They are totally under qualified and out of their element. Sure, it's not fair to them, but who cares? They aren't the victims here. They agreed to do the job and are not doing it well.

It cost the Packers the game. 1 of 16 in a league where every game literally matters. It was estimated this mistake cost bettors worldwide anywhere from 150-250 million. http://twitter.com/darrenrovell

Now is the time to go batshit crazy. If not now, when?

Excellent post, points well taken.

These refs are currently doing a crappy job, no other way to sugar coat it.

A lot more people are unhappy than happy, to put it mildly.

I think under the spirit of the game, you can't say that was a catch by Seattle. But, under the technical part of the rule, it might have been a catch? I think about the rule in the NBA that creates a jump ball situation, if a player has his both hands wrapped around the ball and is on the floor and an opposing player dives on the ground and places one hand on the ball while its currenly being cradled, sometimes they'll say dual possession and jump ball. There have been many instances in the NBA where one of the players had 'more' possession than the other guy and yet, it was still ruled a jump ball.

Maybe the rule in the NFL is open to interpretation and the offensive player doesnt have to have 'equal' possession to be rewarded the catch? The Seattle player did have one arm in between the GB player and the ball, so, i dont know if the rules say that's a catch by the offensive player or not. It comes down to how the rule is written. It appeared to the naked eye that the Packer player had 'more' possession of the ball, that's not really much of a debate, the debate probably boils down to how much 'possession' does the Seattle player need to win the 'tie'.

As far as the review part, i could have sworn someone said that they cant review who caught it, but they can only review if the ball was actually caught by *someone* and didnt hit the ground. Im not sure if they were technically allowed to reverse this, but i don't know for sure. So, it might have been a case of making a bad call to begin with and then not being allowed to reverse it per the rules.

At any rate, your 'batshit crazy' is in full force, i can't remember an outrage or outcry that even comes close to this, many players and coaches are coming out saying these guys have to go and the anger is really at an extremely high level.

It just FEELS like the NFL can't play one more game with the backup refs, it seems to me that they have to settle this asap and get these regular refs on the field before any more games are played......people are just not interested in 'learning curves' for the refs, they want accurate calls and a fairly officiated game, i think we will see a settlement sooner rather than later, the entire league is on the verge of a mutiny.

[Rookies]

I am told,

IF the NFL "gave in" to the Refs, that would cost them $15 Mill over the next 5-6 years.

During the same time, the NFL will be making $60 Billion!:eek:

What does that work out to?

0.0025%:lol:

Hmmmm... which side is the complete asshole here & what purpose is served by trying to be???

[dav4463]

I have no idea where you see them having both hands on the ball "initially". "Eventually", maybe.


I'm saying....in real time you can see from the front where it looks like both players have both hands on the ball. The referee saw that and thought "simultaneous possession". He did in fact, have one hand on the ball and the other on Jenning's wrist, but he did get his other hand on the ball and his feet landed first "completing the catch". Touchdown, based on the rule and how the official saw it.

I saw it as the defender caught it first. I'm just saying,, I can see how the official thought both had the ball and since Tate never let go of the ball and was the first to hit the ground with the ball and both feet down....offense is awarded the catch.

Another way to explain it is to take the defender out of the play. Tate went up with one hand, got the ball, then got both hands on it, and came down on two feet to complete the catch. There is no rule that says the ball goes to whoever has "more control". In the official's mind, both players had control of the ball. That's his call.

[cj]

That's his call.

It is his call, but it was the wrong one. Say what you will about NFL officials, but they know the rule better than anyone. Not a single one that I have seen thinks that was simultaneous position in real time or slo mo. Getting your feet down has nothing to do with that rule.

[Valuist]

Finally over. Sportsline reporting the NFL and refs have come to an agreement.

[cj]

Finally over. Sportsline reporting the NFL and refs have come to an agreement.

I think we get one more game of bad refs tomorrow night!

[Valuist]

I think we get one more game of bad refs tomorrow night!

Bad refs and Brandon Weedan. Must see TV!

[Rookies]

Finally over. Sportsline reporting the NFL and refs have come to an agreement.

After that Packers' travesty, I figured it couldn't last the week. Of course, after some players published Goodell's personal telephone number and e-mail, he received 70k protest messages in one day.

That, had nothing to do with the movement on negotiations, no doubt! :lol:

[kingfin66]

Bad refs and Brandon Weedan. Must see TV!

I heard a report on the radio that there is a real crew ready to go for tomorrow night.

[Hosshead]

Money is not the main issue with the refs. The league wants to set up a process for replacing under-performing officials, and their union doesn't want to hear any of it.

Ironic isn't it ?

Everybody is complaining about the "under-performing" replacement refs, but the real refs don't want any of their under-performing members replaced.
I hope the NFL didn't give in on that point. (but they probably did)

[Tom]

Yes, the REAL incompetent blind bastards are back in action tonight! :D

[Marshall Bennett]

Yes, the REAL incompetent blind bastards are back in action tonight! :D
Add to that the most incompetent television commentators, compliments of the NFL network. Add to that one of the most mismatched contest of the season.
Should be quite exciting. :bang:

[Valuist]

I can just envision the popular Halloween costume this year: guys go out and buy a referee's shirt a couple sizes too small and claim they are Ed Hochuli.

[Robert Goren]

One thing was clear from this mess. The worst regular official was lot a better than the best replacement refs. This should serve as a lesson to any boss that is tempted to use scabs. The quality of your product will suffer immensely when you start to use inexperenced replacements. employees learn the inner working of a job by working along side an experenced co-worker. Starting fresh with a whole new crew is going to lead to major problems. I saw this happen close up when my company was bought out and the new company started drug testing and we lost 2/3 of our veteran help over night. There wasn't enough people to train the new people and our receits took a major hit for over a couple years as the new people learned the trade. Customers do not put up with employees who do not know what they are doing for very long at least in a customer service industry.

[iwearpurple]

Robert

The fact that the officials belong to a union does not make them better. They are better because of the experience they have and the fact they work as a team and know each other.

Certainly, the quality of product will suffer when you use inexperienced replacements. Again, this is true whether the employees are union employees or not.

Keep in mind that the regular officials also make huge mistakes. Just ask the San Diego fans how they feel about Ed Hochuli. I am willing to bet that at least 90% of the replacement officials would have gotten that call right. Because Ed Hochuli belongs to a union doesn't necessarily make him better.

[Tom]

Add to that the most incompetent television commentators, compliments of the NFL network. Add to that one of the most mismatched contest of the season.
Should be quite exciting. :bang:

For me, it comes down to do I watch Person for Interest, or 18 Persons of No Interest? :lol:

[TJDave]

I saw this happen close up when my company was bought out and the new company started drug testing and we lost 2/3 of our veteran help over night.

You worked for Major League Baseball?

[johnhannibalsmith]

:lol:

:lol:

One for each of the last two posts.

[Stillriledup]

One thing was clear from this mess. The worst regular official was lot a better than the best replacement refs. This should serve as a lesson to any boss that is tempted to use scabs. The quality of your product will suffer immensely when you start to use inexperenced replacements. employees learn the inner working of a job by working along side an experenced co-worker. Starting fresh with a whole new crew is going to lead to major problems. I saw this happen close up when my company was bought out and the new company started drug testing and we lost 2/3 of our veteran help over night. There wasn't enough people to train the new people and our receits took a major hit for over a couple years as the new people learned the trade. Customers do not put up with employees who do not know what they are doing for very long at least in a customer service industry.

I think the lesson wasnt necessarily to not use scabs, the lesson was that if you use scabs and they REALLY screw up, you'll get an incredible amount of publicity, massive TV ratings (because who doesnt love a trainwreck?) and you get the most important thing of all....you invoke the PASSIONS of the fans. Every fan had an opinion on these 'scabs' and every fan was incredibly passionate about this opinion.

When you grab a passionate situation and attach that situation to the hips of the fans, you 'train' your fans to feel passion when they think about your product.

Win Win for the NFL (as usual).

[raybo]

Robert

The fact that the officials belong to a union does not make them better. They are better because of the experience they have and the fact they work as a team and know each other.

Certainly, the quality of product will suffer when you use inexperienced replacements. Again, this is true whether the employees are union employees or not.

Keep in mind that the regular officials also make huge mistakes. Just ask the San Diego fans how they feel about Ed Hochuli. I am willing to bet that at least 90% of the replacement officials would have gotten that call right. Because Ed Hochuli belongs to a union doesn't necessarily make him better.

I agree, the word "scabs" disgusts me anyway. The "union" that should have stepped up, was the players' union. The owners and the NFL don't make money when the players walk out. The quality of the refs the NFL used was simply, inexperienced, and the safety of the players and the quality of the game both suffered, the NFL and owners are the bad guys here, not the "scabs". They did as well as their experience allowed, unfortunately.

[Valuist]

I look at the Denver-Balt game, seeing how a Bronco receiver was clearly interfered with on what turned out to be a Pic 6....huge momentum changer in that game thanks to the no-call. If that was replacement refs, the media and public would've been all over it. Yes, the replacement refs totally screwed up the Seattle-Green Bay Monday nighter but the fact of the matter is the real refs screw up a lot of plays.