sports beting v horse racing

[nat1223]

well i guess the question comes down to sports betting or horse racing?? what do others think is more profitable over the long haul?? is the take out in horse racing just to much to overcome? there seems to be more people out there claiming that sports betting is better.. thoughts

[lamboguy]

its really the same thing. depending upon your rebate, horseracing might have better value on the surface.

the key to either is to know the proper value of the prices and find mistakes in the odds on both.

i don't bet sports because i don't have a clue as to the correct odds, in horses i have a decent idea.

[horses4courses]

well i guess the question comes down to sports betting or horse racing?? what do others think is more profitable over the long haul?? is the take out in horse racing just to much to overcome? there seems to be more people out there claiming that sports betting is better.. thoughts

Sports betting, with it's low vig, will keep you in action longer.
That's for straight bets, though, not parlays.
In the long run, both are losing propositions, unless you pick your spots well.

[therussmeister]

Horse racing gives you more betting opportunities; hundreds of races 364 days a year, so if you are disciplined, horse racing is better, if not, sports betting is better.

[Tom]

Other than a few bookie sheets back in the day. I never bet sports.

[Stillriledup]

Horse racing is more profitable for most only because you can theoretically bet 2 dollars and win 1 million. There are large tri, super, pick 5 and pick 6 prices out there on a daily basis....not so in sports betting.

The toughest thing about sports betting is that the ROI margin is so small, that you really have to bet thousands and thousands per game to make a little bit of money.

For example, If you bet 5k per game in sports and you win 57% of your bets (which means you're a pretty good handicapper) , you're really only making an ROI of about 5% which means if you make 100 bets at 5K each, you're only making about what, 30k profit for the year? And, most people can't afford to wager 5k per game, so their profit is going to be less.

[Robert Goren]

At one time, you could find a bad line when bad college teams played each other if you took the local papers. The internet put an end to that. Now days the lines are seldom off very much. Even with the higher takeout, horse racing offers more spots where the odds more favorable. But you have to do your home work and it helps if you are at the track you are betting and can get a good look at the horses. It also doesn't hurt if you know someone in the horse business although they are generally tight lipped. You should know them from out side of the racing business. My dad knew a trainer from the winter pokergame/stags. He gave him a lot of good info not only on his horses, but other trainer's horses.

[mannyberrios]

It looks like Horseracing wins!

[CincyHorseplayer]

Horse racing is more profitable for most only because you can theoretically bet 2 dollars and win 1 million. There are large tri, super, pick 5 and pick 6 prices out there on a daily basis....not so in sports betting.

The toughest thing about sports betting is that the ROI margin is so small, that you really have to bet thousands and thousands per game to make a little bit of money.

For example, If you bet 5k per game in sports and you win 57% of your bets (which means you're a pretty good handicapper) , you're really only making an ROI of about 5% which means if you make 100 bets at 5K each, you're only making about what, 30k profit for the year? And, most people can't afford to wager 5k per game, so their profit is going to be less.

I used to have this conversation all the time with my old boss.He never understood the inferior advantage of the math.Good post.

[RaceBookJoe]

Have never bet sports, but cant understand why here in Vegas I can bet sports from my computer with Station Casinos but not horses. It would make it easier than having to phone in my plays. oh well

[Stillriledup]

I used to have this conversation all the time with my old boss.He never understood the inferior advantage of the math.Good post.

Thanks.

Also, if you are a huge bettor in sports, its hard to get down that much money without employing dozens of beards to bet for you. Racing wants to book bets, anyone's bets, but in sports, if you are a huge bettor and considered 'sharp' these places don't want your action....so, that's another way that makes really hard to win at least a couple hundred grand betting sports.

[Stillriledup]

Have never bet sports, but cant understand why here in Vegas I can bet sports from my computer with Station Casinos but not horses. It would make it easier than having to phone in my plays. oh well

Probably because the tracks you would be betting won't permit stations to offer that option. For example, the owner of Santa Anita might want you to sign up for their own betting service called xpressbet instead of Stations phone service, it would be more money in it for them.

Im not sure if im right about this, but this seems to be the most logical reason you cant bet racing on the phone with Stations.

[thaskalos]

Well...let's see...

In basketball and football you are profitable with a 53% winning percentage, and you are guaranteed to win 50% of the time with just a flip of a coin.

Adding the fact that you can bet as much as you want without hurting your own odds, and also considering that sports are much more "honest" than horse races...and I would have to say that sports betting wins hands down.

If the winning horseplayer were to spend HALF the time that he has invested in learning how to play our game, to analyze sports...then there is no doubt in my mind that he could come up with a way to win 56-60% of his football and basketball wagers (baseball is a little trickier).

And once he gets to this level of proficiency...the sky is the limit.

[Stillriledup]

Well...let's see...

In basketball and football you are profitable with a 53% winning percentage, and you are guaranteed to win 50% of the time with just a flip of a coin.

Adding the fact that you can bet as much as you want without hurting your own odds, and also considering that sports are much more "honest" than horse races...and I would have to say that sports betting wins hands down.

If the winning horseplayer were to spend HALF the time that he has invested in learning how to play our game, to analyze sports...then there is no doubt in my mind that he could come up with a way to win 56-60% of his football and basketball wagers (baseball is a little trickier).

And once he gets to this level of proficiency...the sky is the limit.

Sports may be 'easier' to beat, but horse bettors have more of a shot for a lifechanging score. Sports betting has a much lower 'takeout' and because of that, its easier to actually win. Now, making a living doing it is a different discussion.

[appistappis]

nobody, but nobody gets 60% in sports betting....the absolute top guys do around 56%.

[thaskalos]

Sports may be 'easier' to beat, but horse bettors have more of a shot for a lifechanging score. Sports betting has a much lower 'takeout' and because of that, its easier to actually win. Now, making a living doing it is a different discussion.

What do you call a "life changing score"...and how close to it have YOU gotten in your own play? :)

You don't judge a gambling game by its "life-changing" potential; you judge it by things like...

1.) How honest is it?

2.) How much effort does it take to become a profitable player?

3.) Can we conveniently fit the game into our daily lives?

4.) How much money can a winning player make in the long run?

Sports betting scores much higher than horse racing in all these categories, IMO.

The betting opportunities may be fewer in sports betting...but the winning sports bettor can take it as far as he wants it to go...because of the amounts of money he can get down on a game, without hurting his own odds.

There are sports bettors who have built up million dollar bankrolls over time...and they wager $10,000+ on a single wager.

Horse racing in this country cannot be played this way...

[thaskalos]

nobody, but nobody gets 60% in sports betting....the absolute top guys do around 56%.

I believe that the winning horseplayer could do it...if he chose to devote his time to sports rather than horses.

If a horseplayer has what it takes to beat the horses for sizable money...than I would bet my bottom dollar that he can win 56-60% of his sports bets.

IMO...there is nothing more difficult in the world of gambling than beating the horses.

Casino games excluded of course...

[PaceAdvantage]

Actually, all those studious types who are able to do well in horse racing or sports are all better off trying to tackle the financial markets.

Talk about life changing scores, UNLIMITED profit potential, and HUGE pools...

And I'd also like to take issue with Thaskalos saying you don't have to worry about betting big sums in sports. How long is a book going to take your action if you're constantly beating them?

I'm not a sports bettor, but I've read books like The Smart Money by Michael Konik where big winning sports bettors have to resort to all sorts of tricks to get bets down across town...using beards and whatnot...

[thaskalos]

I'm not a sports bettor, but I've read books like The Smart Money by Michael Konik where big winning sports bettors have to resort to all sorts of tricks to get bets down across town...using beards and whatnot...

If you and I were to walk up to the counter at a Las Vegas sports book...how much money do you think we could put down on a football game...without any problem?

The only problem we would face in putting down $10,000 would be the government form they would ask us to fill.

[Stillriledup]

What do you call a "life changing score"...and how close to it have YOU gotten in your own play? :)

You don't judge a gambling game by its "life-changing" potential; you judge it by things like...

1.) How honest is it?

2.) How much effort does it take to become a profitable player?

3.) Can we conveniently fit the game into our daily lives?

4.) How much money can a winning player make in the long run?

Sports betting scores much higher than horse racing in all these categories, IMO.

The betting opportunities may be fewer in sports betting...but the winning sports bettor can take it as far as he wants it to go...because of the amounts of money he can get down on a game, without hurting his own odds.

There are sports bettors who have built up million dollar bankrolls over time...and they wager $10,000+ on a single wager.

Horse racing in this country cannot be played this way...

I've had some massive hits, but nothing life changing only because no matter how much i win, when i wake up the next day, nothing really changes.

As far as honesty goes, i think that horse racing is much more honest than sports. In horse racing, there's no ref 'stepping in' to call a borderline foul or penalty on your team costing you the game. Sure, there are DQs that are BS, but most times, if you have the winning horse, you get paid.

Also, if a jock 'stiffs' your live runner, its easy to see on tape and you can bet that horse back next time and get an inflated price because the PP line will be worse than the horse really is. If a ref 'stiffs' your team, its not something you can take advantage of that in the next game.

I would imagine that the top horse bettor and the top sports bettors make a ton of money, but what about the solid horseplayer vs the solid sports bettor. The very good horse bettor who bets 200 to 500 per race and has a great year, could make quite a good amount of money. The sports bettor who is risking 200 or 500 isnt going to be able to do as well, in fact, the 500 dollar sports bettor would be very lucky to clear 20k profit for the year, but the sharp horse player can make a ton of money if he hits a huge Pentafecta or pick 5 or pick 6 during the year....he only needs ONE huge hit to have a big year.

[Stillriledup]

If you and I were to walk up to the counter at a Las Vegas sports book...how much money do you think we could put down on a football game...without any problem?

The only problem we would face in putting down $10,000 would be the government form they would ask us to fill.

Big casinos will let you bet 20k, 30k or more on an NFL game. Maybe less on college, but NFL limits are HUGE. I think the say '10k limit' on NFL, but if you asked for more, you could probably get it...especially if you 'appeared' square.

I dont think that you fill out any forms on sports bets...i think that they might keep a record 'in house' but you're betting on a 9-10 shot. Ive never bet anything close to 10k on a sporting event, so i wouldnt know for sure, but i dont think they make you 'sign' like racetracks do.

[davew]

This would have to rely on individual.

To be good at either, you have to be willing to watch thousands of hours of performances and also read to keep up with the players.

I can think of few things worse than watching thousands of hours of baseball. The few times I do, I see all the players and management who have put in tens of thousands of hours in their life, and still seem to enjoy it. -

The financial markets are rigged against the average player, because if your pockets are deep enough, you can move the markets one way or another for a long time.

[RaceBookJoe]

Probably because the tracks you would be betting won't permit stations to offer that option. For example, the owner of Santa Anita might want you to sign up for their own betting service called xpressbet instead of Stations phone service, it would be more money in it for them.

Im not sure if im right about this, but this seems to be the most logical reason you cant bet racing on the phone with Stations.

I can bet horses from my phone through Station Casino, but not from my computer. I can bet sports from my computer through them though...not sure they difference, next time i go there i will ask someone. Maybe because its a direct internet connection to them??

[therussmeister]

sports are much more "honest" than horse races...and I would have to say that sports betting wins hands down.

Here is the problem I have with sports betting, if betting against a point spread, the players on the field have a different goal than the bettor does.

If you bet the Giants who are favored by three points, and they are down by one with less than a minute with the ball on the opponents 15 yard line, you need a touchdown, but they will go for the field goal.

To me this negates the "honest" problem of horse racing.

[therussmeister]

Sports betting has a much lower 'takeout' and because of that, its easier to actually win.
Takeout is irrelevant if the competition is too tough. You can't assume because sports betting has a lower takeout it is easier to beat, just as you can't assume Keeneland is easier to beat than any other track due to their low takeout.

[olddaddy]

Sports are basically on the up and up, horse racing is full of chicanery. Very little information is available to the outsider in racing, really hard to beat a sport with so much being hidden.

[thaskalos]

I've had some massive hits, but nothing life changing only because no matter how much i win, when i wake up the next day, nothing really changes.

As far as honesty goes, i think that horse racing is much more honest than sports. In horse racing, there's no ref 'stepping in' to call a borderline foul or penalty on your team costing you the game. Sure, there are DQs that are BS, but most times, if you have the winning horse, you get paid.

Also, if a jock 'stiffs' your live runner, its easy to see on tape and you can bet that horse back next time and get an inflated price because the PP line will be worse than the horse really is. If a ref 'stiffs' your team, its not something you can take advantage of that in the next game.

I would imagine that the top horse bettor and the top sports bettors make a ton of money, but what about the solid horseplayer vs the solid sports bettor. The very good horse bettor who bets 200 to 500 per race and has a great year, could make quite a good amount of money. The sports bettor who is risking 200 or 500 isnt going to be able to do as well, in fact, the 500 dollar sports bettor would be very lucky to clear 20k profit for the year, but the sharp horse player can make a ton of money if he hits a huge Pentafecta or pick 5 or pick 6 during the year....he only needs ONE huge hit to have a big year.

I happen to think that horse racing, when run right, is the best betting game in the world. But when it's run wrong -- like it is now -- then it becomes the toughest "winnable"game in the world to beat.

Every day I see races that turn my stomach, where it is obvious that the "informed" money is using something other than what is available to me to make their selections. Couple that with the onerous takeout...and this becomes a game that no reasonable player would ever recommend to a friend.

Here is where sports betting differs from our game, IMO:

Yes, in the beginning -- when your bankroll is small -- you have to be satisfied with moderate gains. Sports betting doesn't promise those elusive "life-changing" scores that horse racing sometimes offers. But -- because sports betting is a "bigger game" -- the player can accumumate a bigger bankroll over time. Sports betting is more like stock market investing...where a 25% annual return may not appeal to the average Joe with the small starting capital -- but this return will make him a multi-millionaire if he can keep it up over a lifetime.

IMO...if sports betting was suddenly legalized and it became available throughout the country...this would bring about the swift death of our favorite game.

[Valuist]

nobody, but nobody gets 60% in sports betting....the absolute top guys do around 56%.

I agree. If you look at the tracking sites, you'd see a few over 60% for awhile, but once they got over 100 plays or so, they'd drop below 60%. Maybe 57% for a top but I would say that's it, if one was talking about a large number of wagers (1000 or more).

[Valuist]

The stock market is the most profitable and easiest of the 3. Its not a zero sum game. As for racing, in the past 10 years I can see any edge that I thought I had getting eroded. Now the only edges out there are really trips, especially when the DRF or Equibase miss something, or physicality handicapping. Sports are so tough because of the margins. Its easy enough to break even, needing to be right 11 times out of every 21, but realistically pretty much capped at around being right 5 times out of every 9.

[thaskalos]

The stock market is the most profitable and easiest of the 3. Its not a zero sum game. As for racing, in the past 10 years I can see any edge that I thought I had getting eroded. Now the only edges out there are really trips, especially when the DRF or Equibase miss something, or physicality handicapping. Sports are so tough because of the margins. Its easy enough to break even, needing to be right 11 times out of every 21, but realistically pretty much capped at around being right 5 times out of every 9.

I have, over the last three years, created a "system" for betting on football and basketball...which I will start betting real money on beginning with week 5 of this football season -- once the stats become meaningful. I will document all my plays at the selections forum of this site.

I am convinced that I will double my bankroll every year. :cool:

[CincyHorseplayer]

All this is assuming that you go on a win streak in sports betting that never ends,60% wins over a lifetime with a 20% ROI.Is that possible?I don't think it is.I'd love to meet the human being who bets 2.56 million the first year(regular season,every game,10K a pop) and makes 512K.Then repeats the % til the day he dies.He da man!!:cool:

[horses4courses]

All this is assuming that you go on a win streak in sports betting that never ends,60% wins over a lifetime with a 20% ROI.Is that possible?I don't think it is.I'd love to meet the human being who bets 2.56 million the first year(regular season,every game,10K a pop) and makes 512K.Then repeats the % til the day he dies.He da man!!:cool:

Yeah...horses are a piece of cake compared to a 5% takeout on straight sports.
Gimme a break....... :rolleyes:
I have been around thousands of race and sports bettors over the years.
Race players usually bust out quicker.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Yeah...horses are a piece of cake compared to a 5% takeout on straight sports.
Gimme a break....... :rolleyes:

5% take on a 20% ROI ceiling that might not exist.Yeah what red carpet situation there!:rolleyes:

[CincyHorseplayer]

Yeah...horses are a piece of cake compared to a 5% takeout on straight sports.
Gimme a break....... :rolleyes:
I have been around thousands of race and sports bettors over the years.
Race players usually bust out quicker.

And I'm sure those guys weren't equipped with a 2.56 mil bankroll to start the game either.That's what's being talked about here sleepy.:cool:

[horses4courses]

And I'm sure those guys weren't equipped with a 2.56 mil bankroll to start the game either.That's what's being talked about here sleepy.:cool:

It doesn't matter if your starting with 2 mil, or twenty bucks, Einstein.
It's easier to make money betting sports. Period.

[thaskalos]

All this is assuming that you go on a win streak in sports betting that never ends,60% wins over a lifetime with a 20% ROI.Is that possible?I don't think it is.I'd love to meet the human being who bets 2.56 million the first year(regular season,every game,10K a pop) and makes 512K.Then repeats the % til the day he dies.He da man!!:cool:
I am convinced that a bettor can double his bankroll in a year by wagering on footbal and basketball, without taking any excessive risks...and I aim to prove it to all, right here at this site.

And I am working on a baseball system as we speak...

[horses4courses]

And I am working on a baseball system as we speak...

For next season?
As you know, there's not much season left.

[thaskalos]

For next season?
As you know, there's not much season left.
For next season.

I was led to believe that baseball would be the easier game to beat...but I haven't found that to be the case.

I feel that I am close though...

[horses4courses]

For next season.

I was led to believe that baseball would be the easier game to beat...but I haven't found that to be the case.

I feel that I am close though...

Good luck!
You're probably right about baseball being a bit easier.
Few people understand baseball betting compared to football.
Only a small fraction of those bettors risk big money on it.
Sports books thrive on football - everyone thinks it's an easy gig. Wrong.

Booking horses and sports for many years,
I know that we held over 15% on the ponies, and 4-5% annually on sports, and we held higher than Vegas.
Sports is all about $ volume bet for the books. Though we only held a third on sports compared to horses %wise, we netted far more money on sports through volume. That was back in the day before pari-mutuel in Nevada.

[Stillriledup]

I can bet horses from my phone through Station Casino, but not from my computer. I can bet sports from my computer through them though...not sure they difference, next time i go there i will ask someone. Maybe because its a direct internet connection to them??

Hmmm, interesting. Yes, ask them, i'd love to know what they say.

[Stillriledup]

Here is the problem I have with sports betting, if betting against a point spread, the players on the field have a different goal than the bettor does.

If you bet the Giants who are favored by three points, and they are down by one with less than a minute with the ball on the opponents 15 yard line, you need a touchdown, but they will go for the field goal.

To me this negates the "honest" problem of horse racing.

You could bet money lines and not have to worry about the spread. If you bet the spread than yeah, you are betting into a situation where the players have a different goal than you (unless its a big college football team who has been known to attempt to cover large numbers to please the boosters!)

[Stillriledup]

I happen to think that horse racing, when run right, is the best betting game in the world. But when it's run wrong -- like it is now -- then it becomes the toughest "winnable"game in the world to beat.

Every day I see races that turn my stomach, where it is obvious that the "informed" money is using something other than what is available to me to make their selections. Couple that with the onerous takeout...and this becomes a game that no reasonable player would ever recommend to a friend.

Here is where sports betting differs from our game, IMO:

Yes, in the beginning -- when your bankroll is small -- you have to be satisfied with moderate gains. Sports betting doesn't promise those elusive "life-changing" scores that horse racing sometimes offers. But -- because sports betting is a "bigger game" -- the player can accumumate a bigger bankroll over time. Sports betting is more like stock market investing...where a 25% annual return may not appeal to the average Joe with the small starting capital -- but this return will make him a multi-millionaire if he can keep it up over a lifetime.

IMO...if sports betting was suddenly legalized and it became available throughout the country...this would bring about the swift death of our favorite game.

I completely know what you're saying about the money that shows up on a horse and you have no idea why (on paper/tape) and it turns out that the 'market' seems to be right much more than they're wrong. Bob Baffert had a huge dropper closing week at DMR in the first race of the day and the horse was hanging there at something like even money....that screamed "DEAD" on the board, this horse was a 1-9 shot on paper......needless to say, the horse was vet scratched in the post parade with 2 mins to post.

There have been times i've loved a horse who i figured would be a certain price and my pick was sitting up there on the board ice cold and twice the price i though he might be.....makes you start to wonder if the 'whole world' knows this horse is dead but me. I seldom seem to be able to get 8-1 on a horse i figure to be 4-1 and the horse is 'live'. Sure, 8-1s win all the time, but not 8-1s who figure to be much shorter on the board.

[Stillriledup]

This would have to rely on individual.

To be good at either, you have to be willing to watch thousands of hours of performances and also read to keep up with the players.

I can think of few things worse than watching thousands of hours of baseball. The few times I do, I see all the players and management who have put in tens of thousands of hours in their life, and still seem to enjoy it. -

The financial markets are rigged against the average player, because if your pockets are deep enough, you can move the markets one way or another for a long time.

I think that there are plenty of horseplayers and sports bettors who dont use 'hours and hours' of watching games or race replays to forumlate opinions. I know personally, that if i was going to bet sports seriously, i would pick a sport and watch every game that sports league had, i would need plenty of TVs and DVR boxes to record them all and i would spend a TON of time watching games, but i think some people make money betting sports and dont really watch the games, especially games they bet on.

I know that people can make money by not watching replays or games, but i know for me, my edge is video and game watching.

[Stillriledup]

Actually, all those studious types who are able to do well in horse racing or sports are all better off trying to tackle the financial markets.

Talk about life changing scores, UNLIMITED profit potential, and HUGE pools...

And I'd also like to take issue with Thaskalos saying you don't have to worry about betting big sums in sports. How long is a book going to take your action if you're constantly beating them?

I'm not a sports bettor, but I've read books like The Smart Money by Michael Konik where big winning sports bettors have to resort to all sorts of tricks to get bets down across town...using beards and whatnot...

You want to convince the head guy that you are a 'square'. Walk up to the book, introduce yourself and proclaim that you are a big bettor who's looking for some action and ask for the limits. Make sure you are wearing a jersey of a popular team (Yankees, Patriots, Lakers, etc) and stick a few grand on that team to win the title. The odds will be short and the guy will be convinced you are just a fanboy who is making a horrible long run bet. First impressions might go a long way!



The stock market is really the place to gamble huge, but, i would imagine the learning curve is massive and it would take years to figure how how to make winning bets. But, maybe i'm wrong on this and someone who's familiar with stock market gambling can chime in and tell us how big the learning curve is.

[nat1223]

if you play the right tracks where the money pool is good and there are 8+ horse fields then you have a good chance of making some money on horse racing. the problem is that most tracks dont carry large pool money and you have 5 to 6 horse fields.
sports betting seems easy because you technically have a 50/50 chance, but is that so? linsemakers take out alot of advantage that you think you may have on a particular sports game. look at football, how do you handicap a team that will play prevent defense when they are up by a few touchdowns and the line is -13 and that team doesn't care if they give up another touchdown b/c there is 2 minutes left in the game. sports teams only care about winning and not covering a spread. thaskalos i hope to see your picks posted on this site so i can follow to see how your doing. i wish you luck

[Johnny V]

I very seldom bet anything other than baseball and the horses. I have found baseball to be somewhat more profitable. I cannot speak for other sports because I have never done well in football or basketball and I gave up on them long ago.
For me it is all about the money line. I spend more time with an accurate line on BB than I do in racing. The two are similar in my approach. In BB (all sports) once you bet that is the line you get, where in racing all that goes out the window.
If you are handicapping for the winner as opposed to handicapping any overlay on the money line be it the dog or the favorite you will have some poor results IMO.
It is a long season and there are many games every day in BB so it is work but there are plenty of opportunities just as in racing. For me betting sports is better also from a standpoint of I have 27 outs to win the game. I am in the game until that last pitch. They cannot quit or walk off. In racing I could done at the start or half sometimes or my jockey falls off or whatever. Just a preference for getting a run for my money.

[Beachbabe]

One difference between betting football (as an example) to betting racing is: in racing you only have one individual who can make a mistake and cost you your investment; in football you have any one of 22 peeps who can make a costly mistake to negatively affect your investment. You know....the quaterback who throws into coverage; the cornerback who slips trying to cover a receiver; the runningback who fumbles the ball a foot from the goal line; the bad snap on the field goal try; the stupid penalty; yadda, yadda

Oy vay......the heartburn !!!! :mad:

[Stillriledup]

One difference between betting football (as an example) to betting racing is: in racing you only have one individual who can make a mistake and cost you your investment; in football you have any one of 22 peeps who can make a costly mistake to negatively affect your investment. You know....the quaterback who throws into coverage; the cornerback who slips trying to cover a receiver; the runningback who fumbles the ball a foot from the goal line; the bad snap on the field goal try; the stupid penalty; yadda, yadda

Oy vay......the heartburn !!!! :mad:

Especially college football, yikes, that's a sport you need a TON of antacid on hand if you plan on betting.

[horses4courses]

When I first was introduced to US football betting in the late 1980s, I was in my late 20s, and had worked for 5 years in Irish race and sports betting.

My first reaction to college football...... :eek:
These are kids out there!
Guys are wagering thousands of dollars on some 19/20 year old to kick a 40 yard field goal with no time left.
He misses - and they cuss him from a height!

If you lose in that situation, you asked for it, bud!!!

[RaceBookJoe]

The only bet that makes sense to me would be the "over" on college football with the way they run overtimes. Think i will stick to horses though.

[magwell]

Betting on a football game is like betting on a 4/5 shot and waiting 3 hours to run the race,that just doesn't get it for me......:cool:

[CincyHorseplayer]

I am convinced that a bettor can double his bankroll in a year by wagering on footbal and basketball, without taking any excessive risks...and I aim to prove it to all, right here at this site.

And I am working on a baseball system as we speak...

I believe in you if you think it Thask.I just think it's a load BIGTIME!!I didn't realize there was a take at all.Now that it's being said it's 5% and 60% wins nets you a 20% ROI that means 15% is the ceiling.50% wins now being a loss.

I would not even enjoy the entire scenario one iota.Bust balls at max level bets where proficiency is a break even proposition.I think ego indulgence and feeling the hair stand up on your balls is all that can be gained from this!!!:p

[Robert Goren]

I completely know what you're saying about the money that shows up on a horse and you have no idea why (on paper/tape) and it turns out that the 'market' seems to be right much more than they're wrong. Bob Baffert had a huge dropper closing week at DMR in the first race of the day and the horse was hanging there at something like even money....that screamed "DEAD" on the board, this horse was a 1-9 shot on paper......needless to say, the horse was vet scratched in the post parade with 2 mins to post.

There have been times i've loved a horse who i figured would be a certain price and my pick was sitting up there on the board ice cold and twice the price i though he might be.....makes you start to wonder if the 'whole world' knows this horse is dead but me. I seldom seem to be able to get 8-1 on a horse i figure to be 4-1 and the horse is 'live'. Sure, 8-1s win all the time, but not 8-1s who figure to be much shorter on the board. All the 8-1's that win, I had figured at 20-1 +

[CincyHorseplayer]

Betting on a football game is like betting on a 4/5 shot and waiting 3 hours to run the race,that just doesn't get it for me......:cool:

Amen.I've thought or said the same exact thing for years.

[Robert Goren]

When I bet football and hoops, most of the time I'd win a little or lose a little each week. Then one week would come along where every team lost. There was never a week where every team won. That is why I quit betting sports. At least the ponies give a taste every once in a while.

[appistappis]

rather than give a detailed answer here why about 56/57% is tops and how they emply hundreds of runners to move lines and get all their action in, I suggest you guys google billy walters and see how things are.

[thaskalos]

IMO...it is imperative that the serious gambler find another game to play...because our game is dying right before our eyes. The fields will continue to get smaller...and the mutuel pools will continue to decline...because the horsemen have finally gotten their wish. They no longer have to depend on the pesky horseplayer for their precious purses.

I am just doing what I have to do, before it's too late...:)

[Stillriledup]

IMO...it is imperative that the serious gambler find another game to play...because our game is dying right before our eyes. The fields will continue to get smaller...and the mutuel pools will continue to decline...because the horsemen have finally gotten their wish. They no longer have to depend on the pesky horseplayer for their precious purses.

I am just doing what I have to do, before it's too late...:)

Great post, couldnt agree more.

[BlueShoe]

The good news about sports betting is that the juice is only 4.54% on straight bets. The bad news is that in the modern era betting lines are very efficient, with bad lines very difficult to find and exploit. As others have mentioned, there are far fewer plays for a careful bettor in sports than at the track, in one week at the track a player may find more solid plays than a sports bettor finds in an entire football season.

In spite of the outrageous mutuel take that we must contend with compared to sports, do think that racing is still best, the reason being that unlike sports, the pools and betting lines are often inefficient and can be exploited by handicappers for a larger profit potential than in sports wagering.

For myself, treat sports betting as recreation on my trips to the Nevada racebooks, something to make a small wager on and kill some time after the serious stuff with the horses is done. Three hours entertainment for $22 with perhaps getting back $42 not a bad way to spend some time. Certainly can understand the frustration of those that wager large sums on games. A dropped pass in the endzone or a missed free throw very late in the game that costs one big bucks can sure cause the old tummy to churn up and trigger a chewing-on-the-carpet fit. Racing equivalent would be dropping a very tough beat photo by a nose or getting Dq'ed, and we all have been through that countless times.

[CincyHorseplayer]

IMO...it is imperative that the serious gambler find another game to play...because our game is dying right before our eyes. The fields will continue to get smaller...and the mutuel pools will continue to decline...because the horsemen have finally gotten their wish. They no longer have to depend on the pesky horseplayer for their precious purses.

I am just doing what I have to do, before it's too late...:)

The year I got into racing James Quinn came out with his book playing the horses in troubled times.I know no different than bad.I have noticed it has gone downhill in my neck of the woods since around 2003 and while I am waiting for it to die it doesn't.I just did my records from last Saturday and finished a page.I'm 9 for my last 26 and I only had 1 winner drop below my 2-1 mandatory odds.I had 10 cashes and overall a 42% ROI.Usually when the wins go down the places go up and exotics give me leverage.I think the game as many have said just needs contraction but as a player unless I see I'm dying I won't believe the game is.

Reading your post I'm guessing it's all about action.How much can I bet and how often can I bet.For me I'm not really interested in other forms of gambling.I always do well at Blackjack but it bores me,as does poker,that is something to do when I'm drunk and feel like being a blowhard!!I still think horses are the best betting game there is.Watching a race unfold,there's nothing like it.That's where my heart lies and I haven't been convinced otherwise just yet!

[mannyberrios]

The good news about sports betting is that the juice is only 4.54% on straight bets. The bad news is that in the modern era betting lines are very efficient, with bad lines very difficult to find and exploit. As others have mentioned, there are far fewer plays for a careful bettor in sports than at the track, in one week at the track a player may find more solid plays than a sports bettor finds in an entire football season.

In spite of the outrageous mutuel take that we must contend with compared to sports, do think that racing is still best, the reason being that unlike sports, the pools and betting lines are often inefficient and can be exploited by handicappers for a larger profit potential than in sports wagering.

For myself, treat sports betting as recreation on my trips to the Nevada racebooks, something to make a small wager on and kill some time after the serious stuff with the horses is done. Three hours entertainment for $22 with perhaps getting back $42 not a bad way to spend some time. Certainly can understand the frustration of those that wager large sums on games. A dropped pass in the endzone or a missed free throw very late in the game that costs one big bucks can sure cause the old tummy to churn up and trigger a chewing-on-the-carpet fit. Racing equivalent would be dropping a very tough beat photo by a nose or getting Dq'ed, and we all have been through that countless times.
Horse Racing is winning

[nat1223]

IMO...it is imperative that the serious gambler find another game to play...because our game is dying right before our eyes. The fields will continue to get smaller...and the mutuel pools will continue to decline...because the horsemen have finally gotten their wish. They no longer have to depend on the pesky horseplayer for their precious purses.

I am just doing what I have to do, before it's too late...:)


without the gamblers betting on these small fields there will be no purse money..like anything else i think the industry will find a way back.. a good portion of the smaller tracks might die out, but the bigger ones will stay intact. if i were a trainer i think i would want my horses running in larger fields where there is more money being taken in by the track where the purse money will be larger..

[traynor]

The year I got into racing James Quinn came out with his book playing the horses in troubled times.I know no different than bad.I have noticed it has gone downhill in my neck of the woods since around 2003 and while I am waiting for it to die it doesn't.I just did my records from last Saturday and finished a page.I'm 9 for my last 26 and I only had 1 winner drop below my 2-1 mandatory odds.I had 10 cashes and overall a 42% ROI.Usually when the wins go down the places go up and exotics give me leverage.I think the game as many have said just needs contraction but as a player unless I see I'm dying I won't believe the game is.

Reading your post I'm guessing it's all about action.How much can I bet and how often can I bet.For me I'm not really interested in other forms of gambling.I always do well at Blackjack but it bores me,as does poker,that is something to do when I'm drunk and feel like being a blowhard!!I still think horses are the best betting game there is.Watching a race unfold,there's nothing like it.That's where my heart lies and I haven't been convinced otherwise just yet!

I think that anyone who believes horse racing is a dying sport should get out of the house more. A week or two at Sha Tin and another couple of weeks trundling around Australia will give them an entirely new perspective on the health of the racing industry.

Nothing that is as profitable as the racing industry in the US is going to die. There are way too many greedy people milking that cash cow to let that happen anytime in the foreseeable future.

[CincyHorseplayer]

I think that anyone who believes horse racing is a dying sport should get out of the house more. A week or two at Sha Tin and another couple of weeks trundling around Australia will give them an entirely new perspective on the health of the racing industry.

Nothing that is as profitable as the racing industry in the US is going to die. There are way too many greedy people milking that cash cow to let that happen anytime in the foreseeable future.


Amen Traynor.I don't believe it either.I like your posts by the way.

[PaceAdvantage]

They've been saying racing has been a dying sport for 30+ years...it's the slowest death ever recorded...

[cj]

They've been saying racing has been a dying sport for 30+ years...it's the slowest death ever recorded...

This is true, but it has never been as bad as it is right now in my lifetime.

[thaskalos]

I think that anyone who believes horse racing is a dying sport should get out of the house more. A week or two at Sha Tin and another couple of weeks trundling around Australia will give them an entirely new perspective on the health of the racing industry.

Nothing that is as profitable as the racing industry in the US is going to die. There are way too many greedy people milking that cash cow to let that happen anytime in the foreseeable future.
Forgive me...I should have been a lot more clear than I was.

When I said that the game was dying...I meant as a gambling option for the serious player. I never meant to imply that the game would completely cease to exist.

Those "greedy" people...who seek to "milk" the game for their own personal gain...will surely find a way to keep the cash cow alive. But the serious player, IMO, will no longer be part of the scenery.

I also was not making a comment about the state of the game in Hong Kong or Australia.

As I've said many times, I love this game...and wish it to remain well. But I cannot ignore what I see taking place 5 days a week at every race track in the land. The "big" tracks are decimated by "short-fielditis" from monday to friday...while the "small" tracks -- with the bigger fields -- present special problems of their own for the player -- where his 9/5 choice is reduced to 6/5 after the race starts, preventing him from doing anything about it.

On the other hand...my pessimism for the game might be due to the fact that my success -- ROI-wise -- is not yet at the level of some of the other players that I have seen commenting on these pages...

If a player can maintain a ROI in the 30%+ range...then I doubt that he has much to worry about...

[thaskalos]

They've been saying racing has been a dying sport for 30+ years...it's the slowest death ever recorded...

Well...I've been in this game for over 30 years myself...and I have only been saying that the game is dying for about a year now.

It's pretty obvious that the game now is hardly what it was 30 years ago...

[dkithore]

IMO...it is imperative that the serious gambler find another game to play...because our game is dying right before our eyes. The fields will continue to get smaller...and the mutuel pools will continue to decline...because the horsemen have finally gotten their wish. They no longer have to depend on the pesky horseplayer for their precious purses.

I am just doing what I have to do, before it's too late...:)

Why don't you take a look at Australia Racing where the field sizes vary from 8-18 horses and payoffs handsome. Your racing fundamentals in which you have invested almost a lifetime should not go to waste (IMO). You can adapt to this racing quickly.

DK

[Stillriledup]

Well...I've been in this game for over 30 years myself...and I have only been saying that the game is dying for about a year now.

It's pretty obvious that the game now is hardly what it was 30 years ago...


The biggest problem the game has right now is the disrespect for the customer and the lack of leadership. There is nobody 'taking the reins' to clean up the game. The most important thing in the health of the sport is the idea that the races are squeaky clean and anyone who's not interested in playing by the rules needs to be dealt with harshly and not these slap on the wrist punishments that are doled out now.

[mannyberrios]

I think that anyone who believes horse racing is a dying sport should get out of the house more. A week or two at Sha Tin and another couple of weeks trundling around Australia will give them an entirely new perspective on the health of the racing industry.

Nothing that is as profitable as the racing industry in the US is going to die. There are way too many greedy people milking that cash cow to let that happen anytime in the foreseeable future.Horse racing is winning

[cj]

Why don't you take a look at Australia Racing where the field sizes vary from 8-18 horses and payoffs handsome. Your racing fundamentals in which you have invested almost a lifetime should not go to waste (IMO). You can adapt to this racing quickly.

DK

We aren't in Australia. The people that can make changes on this continent have shown very little desire to do so.

[olddaddy]

Horse racing is winning


The only reason horse racing is winning is because there isnt a easy, legal way to bet on sports, like there is on horse racing.

[badcompany]

The stock market is really the place to gamble huge, but, i would imagine the learning curve is massive and it would take years to figure how how to make winning bets. But, maybe i'm wrong on this and someone who's familiar with stock market gambling can chime in and tell us how big the learning curve is.

Much like horseracing, the market can be approached in a number of different ways. With the former, it’s the type of bet you make, wps,exacta, tri etc.; the latter, it’s the timeframe you trade.

First, there’s Daytrading, in which traders fight over tiny price fluctuations, but lots of them. Here, IMO, an individual has almost no shot of being profitable, as he’s up against, on one side, large trading firms with their huge amounts of capital, proprietary trading algorithms and lower trading costs; on the other side there’s the market makers, which mainly are the big banks who can see the order flow and act accordingly in order to make themselves, not you, money.

Next, there’s Swingtrading where a trader attempts to catch intermediate market trends of approximately a week to a month or two. Here,there’s a little better chance of being profitable as speed isn’t a huge factor. However, I’m not much of a fan of this type of trading, as the profits tend to be small compared to the losses, and you can lose more than you had planned because of a stock opening on a gap up or down. In other words, you often don’t know your bet size.

Lastly, there’s long term trading/investing, in which the trader holds stocks for 6-18 months or longer. Here, the individual trader/investor actually has a few advantages as a large part of the competition is Mutual Funds, Pension Funds and Endowments. The sheer size of these entities requires that they spread the money around to hundreds of stocks; whereas the individual can maintain a more concentrated portfolio. In addition, the small investor can more easily bail out of a bad situation, where the big guys often have to sit there and take it as their selling could drive prices down even further.

For a horseplayer to try long term trading, he has to get out of the “action” mindset, as sitting on your hands for months or even years requires tremendous patience and discipline. Anyone who tells you that making money in the Stock Market is “easy” probably isn’t making any.

[Robert Goren]

The problem with horse racing is same problem online poker developed just before it became illegal in the US. The players are getting more and more skilled. In horse racing, the Whales are eating away at profitable races. And there seems to be more whales every day. Even worse the smaller betters are beginning to use the methods the whales use. The money in betting the horses today is at the small pool tracks and even then you have to pull some what some people call unethical tricks like canceling large wagers at the last second. As far I can see, There is only two ways to make money at decent sized tracks. Betting against bridge jumpers and betting into large carry overs. Both situations are fairly rare and require a fair large amount of working capital. A third way might be going to the track live and learning the ins and outs of how a horse looks. That will take time and travel, but it might give you an edge if the expenses don't eat you alive.

I am not sure there is way for gambler with limited funds to eke out a living in any form of gambling these days. The computer has evened the playing field to much.

[traynor]

Forgive me...I should have been a lot more clear than I was.

When I said that the game was dying...I meant as a gambling option for the serious player. I never meant to imply that the game would completely cease to exist.

Those "greedy" people...who seek to "milk" the game for their own personal gain...will surely find a way to keep the cash cow alive. But the serious player, IMO, will no longer be part of the scenery.

I also was not making a comment about the state of the game in Hong Kong or Australia.

As I've said many times, I love this game...and wish it to remain well. But I cannot ignore what I see taking place 5 days a week at every race track in the land. The "big" tracks are decimated by "short-fielditis" from monday to friday...while the "small" tracks -- with the bigger fields -- present special problems of their own for the player -- where his 9/5 choice is reduced to 6/5 after the race starts, preventing him from doing anything about it.

On the other hand...my pessimism for the game might be due to the fact that my success -- ROI-wise -- is not yet at the level of some of the other players that I have seen commenting on these pages...

If a player can maintain a ROI in the 30%+ range...then I doubt that he has much to worry about...

Racing is a lot like a journey in the bush. It doesn't matter what a nice dinner one had yesterday ... dinner today is the objective. Situations that existed are only a memory. Situations that exist are the reality one must deal with. That is one of the things that make horse racing so interesting--the safety and security of an endlessly repetitive reality are missing. I like it that way. It gives those willing to learn, change, and adapt to dynamic reality a big advantage. Advantage is good.

[Valuist]

I think racing is the most difficult because there's so many different scenarios that the learning curve is years. Maybe its different now because there's so many opportunities but it seems like it would be easier for a newbie to bust out quickly now. I don't know anybody who had been betting horses for 4 years or less before they could be profitable. Maybe all the software has evened the playing field.

At least with sports, you should be around 50%. You'll slowly lose money as you learn to handicap. But anybody who thinks they are going to top 60% regularly is delusional.

[melman]

Traynor==Always find your posts interesting no matter if you post in the t-bred section or s-bred. Have a questionfor you. And for others who want to voice there views. Do you know a lot of younger people? People who like to gamble? In the age bracket of 21 to 30? I'm not talking "no brainers" who just play video games all day but young people who are interested in betting for a fair shot at making money. Of that group that I talk with the HUGE majority of them dismiss racing as having far to many "crooks". By crooks they mean "juice" trainers. The best examples they give are this. If at the highest levels of racing i.e. the triple crown races in the last few years the winners have been trainers O'Neil and Dutrow then how much worse is it in the lowel levels. These people and myself for that matter want to bet horses not "when is the juice trainer live". When people think that any business is no longer on the level that is a HUGE negative. It killed off boxing. The big three when I was a young guy where baseball, boxing, and t-bred racing. For racing there was a "buzz" talked about on TV and radio, people looked forward to certain meets. Today I think that only applies to Saratoga and Kenneland. The big problems are juice trainers, high takeout, and short fields. The racing industry IMO does not address any of that. Also IMO the industry has make a big mistake in counting on slot cash. I think the higher purses with slot cash has been a major failure everywhere. Maybe New York can make it work but I have my doubts seeing what it has done to racing in Pennsylvania and Delaware. In these two states there is almost no one watching and handles are small. In s-bred racing the Meadowlands is the track that gets people out to watch had bet. So what do the horsemen do? The support via entries tracks in PA and Del.

Honest question for you Pace Advantage. You say that you have heard that racing is dying for 30 years now. Well without the slot cash just how many tracks would still even be open? How do you explain the drop in total handle on US racing over the last 10 years. The young people I know today are looking at other options and not at racing. By other options I mean stock trading, sports betting, overseas betting, poker. Yes I think there will always be some racing. But it's sad to say but I also think racing will never return to it's previous status. It's nothing more than a niche sport today. Between the horsemen only interested in purse money and mangement mostly interested in making more on slot cash and not racing it's a bad future. Look at PA Derby day and see the future. Large purses, they had two million dollor races. Little buzz little interest and on that day they only did just over 4 million in handle. The amount of purse money paid out on that day was obsene in relation to money bet. Also what I do see is state governments giving less and less ofa share to racing. They are the ones who make the laws so they can also change them when they feel like it. That has already started in Penna and Delaware. I remember when Ed Rendell was gov of Penna and he pushed for slot cash for racing. All the promises.
All failures. I wish NY well with there attempts at slot cash purses. Hope they go against the grain and can make it work. But it looks like NYS government is already set to derail that. Or at least try to. It is NOT the same industry as 30 years ago, or 10 years ago.

[mannyberrios]

The only reason horse racing is winning is because there isnt a easy, legal way to bet on sports, like there is on horse racing.
Maybe. Your right!

[RaceBookJoe]

Much like horseracing, the market can be approached in a number of different ways. With the former, it’s the type of bet you make, wps,exacta, tri etc.; the latter, it’s the timeframe you trade.

First, there’s Daytrading, in which traders fight over tiny price fluctuations, but lots of them. Here, IMO, an individual has almost no shot of being profitable, as he’s up against, on one side, large trading firms with their huge amounts of capital, proprietary trading algorithms and lower trading costs; on the other side there’s the market makers, which mainly are the big banks who can see the order flow and act accordingly in order to make themselves, not you, money.

Next, there’s Swingtrading where a trader attempts to catch intermediate market trends of approximately a week to a month or two. Here,there’s a little better chance of being profitable as speed isn’t a huge factor. However, I’m not much of a fan of this type of trading, as the profits tend to be small compared to the losses, and you can lose more than you had planned because of a stock opening on a gap up or down. In other words, you often don’t know your bet size.

Lastly, there’s long term trading/investing, in which the trader holds stocks for 6-18 months or longer. Here, the individual trader/investor actually has a few advantages as a large part of the competition is Mutual Funds, Pension Funds and Endowments. The sheer size of these entities requires that they spread the money around to hundreds of stocks; whereas the individual can maintain a more concentrated portfolio. In addition, the small investor can more easily bail out of a bad situation, where the big guys often have to sit there and take it as their selling could drive prices down even further.

For a horseplayer to try long term trading, he has to get out of the “action” mindset, as sitting on your hands for months or even years requires tremendous patience and discipline. Anyone who tells you that making money in the Stock Market is “easy” probably isn’t making any.

I would re-classify a couple of your timeframes. Nowadays a swing trade is anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. intermediate trade would be couple of weeks to couple of months.

Daytrading is easier ( not easy ) than horseracing and costs are not that bad. When i started, i was paying $50 each way, now Im paying $10 roundtrip. Not only that, but the money is much better and as long as you are smart enough to trade liquid stocks/futures etc..getting in and out is not difficult at all. You can even set your price where to enter and exit and if the trade isnt working out, you can bail. Once a horse leaves the gate..im stuck with my ticket win or loss. Best thing is that i am flat at the end of the day and can sleep well. No worries about my stock or portfolio due to some situation beyond my control. Again, daytrading isnt "easy" , but it is easier than being successful and profitable than horses. I daytrade to make money and pay the bills, I play horses because its something i love to do.

[traynor]

I think racing is the most difficult because there's so many different scenarios that the learning curve is years. Maybe its different now because there's so many opportunities but it seems like it would be easier for a newbie to bust out quickly now. I don't know anybody who had been betting horses for 4 years or less before they could be profitable. Maybe all the software has evened the playing field.

At least with sports, you should be around 50%. You'll slowly lose money as you learn to handicap. But anybody who thinks they are going to top 60% regularly is delusional.

Only to a point. To me, it would be incredibly foolish of anyone to bet until (and unless) they have a solid shot at turning a profit. Now, today--not four or five or ten years down the road, with a lot of luck and a few minor miracles.

Specifically, an interest in horse racing wagering that is not predicated on winning seems seriously misguided. Like Lee Rousso used to say, "If you are not picking winners, it doesn't make much sense to bet as if you are." Perhaps it is because I don't get anything in the way of emotional excitement or pleasure in wagering, but I find it difficult to understand why anyone would continue betting (and losing) for years unless there was something seriously wrong. Or why a new racing fan would start betting until he or she was fairly confident of her or his ability to do considerably better than breaking even.

If horse racing as a sport or recreation is rewarding, one can study and learn handicapping without betting. If the only reward (or the primary reward) is the rush attached to risking money, the crap tables offer unparalleled opportunity to experience all the emotional highs and lows of a month of racing in a few hours.

[traynor]

Traynor==Always find your posts interesting no matter if you post in the t-bred section or s-bred. Have a questionfor you. And for others who want to voice there views. Do you know a lot of younger people? People who like to gamble? In the age bracket of 21 to 30? I'm not talking "no brainers" who just play video games all day but young people who are interested in betting for a fair shot at making money. Of that group that I talk with the HUGE majority of them dismiss racing as having far to many "crooks". By crooks they mean "juice" trainers. The best examples they give are this. If at the highest levels of racing i.e. the triple crown races in the last few years the winners have been trainers O'Neil and Dutrow then how much worse is it in the lowel levels. These people and myself for that matter want to bet horses not "when is the juice trainer live". When people think that any business is no longer on the level that is a HUGE negative. It killed off boxing. The big three when I was a young guy where baseball, boxing, and t-bred racing. For racing there was a "buzz" talked about on TV and radio, people looked forward to certain meets. Today I think that only applies to Saratoga and Kenneland. The big problems are juice trainers, high takeout, and short fields. The racing industry IMO does not address any of that. Also IMO the industry has make a big mistake in counting on slot cash. I think the higher purses with slot cash has been a major failure everywhere. Maybe New York can make it work but I have my doubts seeing what it has done to racing in Pennsylvania and Delaware. In these two states there is almost no one watching and handles are small. In s-bred racing the Meadowlands is the track that gets people out to watch had bet. So what do the horsemen do? The support via entries tracks in PA and Del.



I know a lot of younger people (and I am still in contact with a number of people I first met when they were in their early 20s) because I attended college and university full-time for 11 straight years, up until five years ago. Most of those I encountered considered racing in much the same category as casino blackjack--work hard, study hard, learn to do it better than the average bettor--and it is like free money. That is undoubtedly due to the fact that I was primarily a business (and management information systems) major. MBA or MIS graduate students are quite willing to seriously research the potential of a given activity before they risk a dollar of their own money.

It may also be that MBA or MIS graduate students are less likely to believe in the "just world hypothesis" than the average person. I cannot recall even one of them concerned with dishonesty in racing as a deterrent to profit. Especially the ones doing presentations and research studies on Enron, Bernie Ebers, Arthur Anderson's "creative accounting", and the ins and outs of Soxley (the Sarbanes-Oxley and related legislation). At least with the DRF you rarely have CFOs deciding to list a debit as a credit because it makes the numbers look better.

As for the "recent nefarious activities that are unlike the honest, straightforward racing of the good old days," I suggest one look closely at the start of the 1953 Kentucky Derby.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBBvKILL1IM

Ah, yes--the good old days--when a mortal lock in the most prestigious race in the world could be (expletive deleted).

[badcompany]

I would re-classify a couple of your timeframes. Nowadays a swing trade is anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks. intermediate trade would be couple of weeks to couple of months.


Instead of nitpicking my timeframes, why don't you tell us what advantage an individual day trader has over a large Wall St. firm?

Capital? Information? Research? Proprietary Software? Speed? Trading Costs?

I don't see any other than "I'm smarter than the other guy."

Aren't we all!:lol:

[RaceBookJoe]

Instead of nitpicking my timeframes, why don't you tell us what advantage an individual day trader has over a large Wall St. firm?

Capital? Information? Research? Proprietary Software? Speed? Trading Costs?

I don't see any other than "I'm smarter than the other guy."

Aren't we all!:lol:

First, i wasnt nitpicking, just pointing out that the markets have changed the past few years. Second, i dont recall saying that the individual day trader had an advantage or not over a wall st firm. Disadvantage for individual might be speed/costs/research? Not sure what software you use, but my orders get filled extremely fast, i can see L2,L3, can trade right off my charts and i have access to a decent short inventory. Advantages to being an individual daytrader : i dont have to move millions of dollars at at time, my scanner picks up instant moves,news so i can either jump on the move or wait to fade it. I also dont have to waste my time doing fundamental analysis/research, am flat every night and get a great nights sleep. Just not a fan of having my money at risk 24/7. Its not about being smarter than the other guy, its about making money, and money can be made easier ( not always easy but sometimes it is), quicker and more of it in trading than in horses.

[Robert Goren]

I have observed one thing about day traders. They are all geniuses in a bull market. Very few of the ones I have known survived in a bear market. Bull and bear markets don't exist most forms of gambling. Thats is what makes day trading much harder than any other form of gambling. Even the technology in day trading markets is way ahead of any other form of gambling which gives the "whales" an larger advantage over the gambler with limited funds. I would not recomend giving up horse race betting for day trading. I think you have better if small chance of coming out ahead in horse racing in the long term.

[Leparoux]

Personally, I find neither profitable in the long run :D

I enjoy betting any sort of college football game. Compared to horses, it can keep you entertained and interested for a longer period of time and less money, which is why I gamble in the first place.

However, the first gambling story out of my mouth is usually my biggest score, which is from horse racing.

[RaceBookJoe]

I have observed one thing about day traders. They are all geniuses in a bull market. Very few of the ones I have known survived in a bear market. Bull and bear markets don't exist most forms of gambling. Thats is what makes day trading much harder than any other form of gambling. Even the technology in day trading markets is way ahead of any other form of gambling which gives the "whales" an larger advantage over the gambler with limited funds. I would not recomend giving up horse race betting for day trading. I think you have better if small chance of coming out ahead in horse racing in the long term.

Well, either the people you have observed arent really daytraders or you didnt observe them long enough. Daytraders make money when stocks go up or when they go down, we dont rely on some perceived bull or bear market. We just look for moves to tkae advantage of. Somedays a stock will go up while the markets overall will be going down. Take today...in just over 2 hrs I have already had 6 roundtrip trades on BTH alone..approx $4100. No comparison to horse racing. Daytrading is not easy like i said, but the money is there if you take the time to learn your craft. Ok, time to get back to work :)

[myhorse1]

Well, either the people you have observed arent really daytraders or you didnt observe them long enough. Daytraders make money when stocks go up or when they go down, we dont rely on some perceived bull or bear market. We just look for moves to tkae advantage of. Somedays a stock will go up while the markets overall will be going down. Take today...in just over 2 hrs I have already had 6 roundtrip trades on BTH alone..approx $4100. No comparison to horse racing. Daytrading is not easy like i said, but the money is there if you take the time to learn your craft. Ok, time to get back to work :)


6 trades = about $700 per trade --how much capital do you have at risk per trade?

[mamaluke]

My two cents worth

Here is how I bet football,and I have for years making a small profit in almost every year,and on a bad year losing very little over the last 50 years
I buy a service from the likes of the Lasky brothers and fade

No studying or looking at stats.Just a phone call and fade
Also remember to ask the tout to only give you his best bests,not more than 3 games,and never complain about his selections

I am sure the fade also works in basketball and baseball betting against these charlatans

[Robert Goren]

Well, either the people you have observed arent really daytraders or you didnt observe them long enough. Daytraders make money when stocks go up or when they go down, we dont rely on some perceived bull or bear market. We just look for moves to tkae advantage of. Somedays a stock will go up while the markets overall will be going down. Take today...in just over 2 hrs I have already had 6 roundtrip trades on BTH alone..approx $4100. No comparison to horse racing. Daytrading is not easy like i said, but the money is there if you take the time to learn your craft. Ok, time to get back to work :)you may be right about them not really being real day traders. all really know about them was when the dow was going up almost every day, they were bragging about how much money they were making and picking up the check when we met for supper or whatever. When dow was going down most day, they were hitting me up for a job. Maybe the ones I knew just weren't bright enough to handle the bear markets. Good Luck with your trades.

[Midnight Cruiser]

My two cents worth

Here is how I bet football,and I have for years making a small profit in almost every year,and on a bad year losing very little over the last 50 years
I buy a service from the likes of the Lasky brothers and fade

No studying or looking at stats.Just a phone call and fade
Also remember to ask the tout to only give you his best bests,not more than 3 games,and never complain about his selections

I am sure the fade also works in basketball and baseball betting against these charlatans

What does fade mean?

[RaceBookJoe]

you may be right about them not really being real day traders. all really know about them was when the dow was going up almost every day, they were bragging about how much money they were making and picking up the check when we met for supper or whatever. When dow was going down most day, they were hitting me up for a job. Maybe the ones I knew just weren't bright enough to handle the bear markets. Good Luck with your trades.

Trust me, i knew a bunch of those types of traders. Its the same with mutual fund managers/brokers...they only know how to buy stocks. They rarely know when/how to short a stock, so if the market goes up they look smart, when the market consolidates or goes lower they start sweating bullets. Thank you for your well wishes, trading can drive you crazy sometimes haha.

[RaceBookJoe]

6 trades = about $700 per trade --how much capital do you have at risk per trade?

The short answer is that my normal lot is 1000 shares on stocks priced $200 and lower. So yesterday, my BTH trades were approx $25K each time. I do adjust things from time to time though, all depends on stock volume/price/time of day etc.

[myhorse1]

to win $700 (nothing to fancy)you would need to bet $350 to win on say a 2/1 favorite-- note the huge difference in scale between $25,00 and $350.

[RaceBookJoe]

to win $700 (nothing to fancy)you would need to bet $350 to win on say a 2/1 favorite-- note the huge difference in scale between $25,00 and $350.

True, but you would also have to win. If horse loses, all your money is gone. I can always bail on a trade that either gets stuck or starts to drop to keep my losses small and in proportion. Again, my trading goes a bit deeper than just buy here,sell there. Most trades i put a r/r to it, so if i am targeting a $1 move, my stop is somewhere around 25cents which gives me a 4:1. To put it in perspective, i made just over $4K for the Saratoga meet ( 6 weeks )..didnt play everyday but still, it took 6 weeks. I made that yesterday in under 3hrs. Small tracks, try putting a $350 win bet down and see what happens. I also trade futures contracts, weeklys..much less money down. Also, i can repeat a trade over and over on the same stock like i did yesterday..can only bet a horse once :) I love playing horses like i said, but when its time for a new car I need to rely on my trading money.

[myhorse1]

True, but you would also have to win. If horse loses, all your money is gone. I can always bail on a trade that either gets stuck or starts to drop to keep my losses small and in proportion. Again, my trading goes a bit deeper than just buy here,sell there. Most trades i put a r/r to it, so if i am targeting a $1 move, my stop is somewhere around 25cents which gives me a 4:1. To put it in perspective, i made just over $4K for the Saratoga meet ( 6 weeks )..didnt play everyday but still, it took 6 weeks. I made that yesterday in under 3hrs. Small tracks, try putting a $350 win bet down and see what happens. I also trade futures contracts, weeklys..much less money down. Also, i can repeat a trade over and over on the same stock like i did yesterday..can only bet a horse once :) I love playing horses like i said, but when its time for a new car I need to rely on my trading money.

your 25cent stop loss is a $250 loss not that far from my $350 at risk--but you actually are risking a greater amount in that stocks have been known to go through their stops without being covered, you are also at risk for all kinds of events you have no control over e.g. computer meltdown, internet slowdown,fat thumb or any other type of black swan event that is unpredictable.
if i have a black swan event e.g. horse shot from the stands -the most i have at risk is $350.

congratulations on winning 4k at saratoga that is no mean feat.

by the way i don't think that making significant money betting horses is in the cards for most people --i think that there are some people on this board who do
and my hat is off to them.

i also think that day trading carries its own set of risks which are not always quantifiable or appreciated.

[traynor]

True, but you would also have to win. If horse loses, all your money is gone. I can always bail on a trade that either gets stuck or starts to drop to keep my losses small and in proportion. Again, my trading goes a bit deeper than just buy here,sell there. Most trades i put a r/r to it, so if i am targeting a $1 move, my stop is somewhere around 25cents which gives me a 4:1. To put it in perspective, i made just over $4K for the Saratoga meet ( 6 weeks )..didnt play everyday but still, it took 6 weeks. I made that yesterday in under 3hrs. Small tracks, try putting a $350 win bet down and see what happens. I also trade futures contracts, weeklys..much less money down. Also, i can repeat a trade over and over on the same stock like i did yesterday..can only bet a horse once :) I love playing horses like i said, but when its time for a new car I need to rely on my trading money.

I am quite certain that I am not the only one curious, but I may be the only one who lacks the shyness to ask. What would you recommend as a basic source of information for someone interested in day trading? Books, or other sources of information?

I am not looking for "inside tips" or some quickie app to do all the work. I am a very curious person by nature, and I like to learn how to do things for myself. I have no fear whatsoever of complexity or steep learning curves. I managed to get through graduate school as a business major with high marks, so I already understand the basic processes involved. What would you recommend as the most useful area/resource for further knowledge?

[RaceBookJoe]

your 25cent stop loss is a $250 loss not that far from my $350 at risk--but you actually are risking a greater amount in that stocks have been known to go through their stops without being covered, you are also at risk for all kinds of events you have no control over e.g. computer meltdown, internet slowdown,fat thumb or any other type of black swan event that is unpredictable.
if i have a black swan event e.g. horse shot from the stands -the most i have at risk is $350.

congratulations on winning 4k at saratoga that is no mean feat.

by the way i don't think that making significant money betting horses is in the cards for most people --i think that there are some people on this board who do
and my hat is off to them.

i also think that day trading carries its own set of risks which are not always quantifiable or appreciated.

There are risks with everything, not too worried about the "what-ifs". Fat thumbs can also work to your advantage too, very rare occurance since I am not in a trade all that long. I have 1 main trading computer with 6 monitors and 3 backup computers just in case, plus a phone.

[RaceBookJoe]

I am quite certain that I am not the only one curious, but I may be the only one who lacks the shyness to ask. What would you recommend as a basic source of information for someone interested in day trading? Books, or other sources of information?

I am not looking for "inside tips" or some quickie app to do all the work. I am a very curious person by nature, and I like to learn how to do things for myself. I have no fear whatsoever of complexity or steep learning curves. I managed to get through graduate school as a business major with high marks, so I already understand the basic processes involved. What would you recommend as the most useful area/resource for further knowledge?

Great question, and I honestly wished that i had a great answer. I learned by the constant watching of how stocks gyrate, how they act at certain levels etc. Then it took a bit to fine-tune my "style". Every trader uses something different..whether its trading from a 1min chart or a 2 or 5 minute chart, using different moving avgs or even indicators. For me it was a lot of trial and error. Then it was about having the right equipment...computer/broker/scanner etc.

Havent really found much in books worthwhile, most of the ones i have read are more about investing or short term/swing trading. You can go to youtube and find some useful stuff..but if you do that..just like in handicapping for me..try to grasp the overall concept as opposed to the exact "system". Does that make sense? I can tell by your handicapping posts that you are very thorough. And just like in handicapping, the best "no way this can lose" idea sometimes still loses. I take my share of losses, i just keep my losses small as i can. I always thought that if someone was a decent handicapper, that they would also be a decent trader.

[traynor]

Great question, and I honestly wished that i had a great answer. I learned by the constant watching of how stocks gyrate, how they act at certain levels etc. Then it took a bit to fine-tune my "style". Every trader uses something different..whether its trading from a 1min chart or a 2 or 5 minute chart, using different moving avgs or even indicators. For me it was a lot of trial and error. Then it was about having the right equipment...computer/broker/scanner etc.

Havent really found much in books worthwhile, most of the ones i have read are more about investing or short term/swing trading. You can go to youtube and find some useful stuff..but if you do that..just like in handicapping for me..try to grasp the overall concept as opposed to the exact "system". Does that make sense? I can tell by your handicapping posts that you are very thorough. And just like in handicapping, the best "no way this can lose" idea sometimes still loses. I take my share of losses, i just keep my losses small as i can. I always thought that if someone was a decent handicapper, that they would also be a decent trader.

Thanks, I appreciate the insights. One of the major problems I had (have) is accepting "information" as reliable (especially financial reports). It sounds like you are doing it more directly--analyzing what is rather than what "should" be or what someone tells you it should be. That is a really good way to look at reality, and one that a lot of horse race bettors might consider. Again, thanks for your insights.

[Stillriledup]

What does fade mean?


Fade = To bet against.

[Stillriledup]

Great question, and I honestly wished that i had a great answer. I learned by the constant watching of how stocks gyrate, how they act at certain levels etc. Then it took a bit to fine-tune my "style". Every trader uses something different..whether its trading from a 1min chart or a 2 or 5 minute chart, using different moving avgs or even indicators. For me it was a lot of trial and error. Then it was about having the right equipment...computer/broker/scanner etc.

Havent really found much in books worthwhile, most of the ones i have read are more about investing or short term/swing trading. You can go to youtube and find some useful stuff..but if you do that..just like in handicapping for me..try to grasp the overall concept as opposed to the exact "system". Does that make sense? I can tell by your handicapping posts that you are very thorough. And just like in handicapping, the best "no way this can lose" idea sometimes still loses. I take my share of losses, i just keep my losses small as i can. I always thought that if someone was a decent handicapper, that they would also be a decent trader.


Is there something in day trading that would be equivalent to the 'takeout' in horse betting? Maybe there's small fees to conduct business, but is there any 'takeout' in the market? Or, is everyone 'betting' on a 0 pct takeout and the only 'takeout' is the fee you pay to make the trade?

[RaceBookJoe]

Is there something in day trading that would be equivalent to the 'takeout' in horse betting? Maybe there's small fees to conduct business, but is there any 'takeout' in the market? Or, is everyone 'betting' on a 0 pct takeout and the only 'takeout' is the fee you pay to make the trade?


The closest thing to the track takeout I guess would be the bid/ask spread. Thats the difference between what you can buy/sell a stock for at a certain moment in time..its always changing. Kind of technical, but there are ways around paying the spread and/or getting paid a small amount to make the trade. Also, as in most businesses, there are overhead costs...broker commissions ( you pay those win or loss on each trade ), data feeds ( monthly) etc but they are miniscule. But i think that the bid/ask spread answers your main question...the spread is where market makers make their money. Some stocks only have a penny or 2 spread, others get wider.

Note to all, especially PA: I didnt mean for this thread to wander into a daytrading thread, my apologies.

[speculus]

What do you call a "life changing score"...and how close to it have YOU gotten in your own play? :)

You don't judge a gambling game by its "life-changing" potential; you judge it by things like...

1.) How honest is it?

2.) How much effort does it take to become a profitable player?

3.) Can we conveniently fit the game into our daily lives?

4.) How much money can a winning player make in the long run?

.......


No, no, no, no, no, no........NO.

You need to ask only ONE question in ANY game:
How DUMB is your COMPETITION?

And HORSE RACING wins HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!

[thaskalos]

No, no, no, no, no, no........NO.

You need to ask only ONE question in ANY game:
How DUMB is your COMPETITION?

And HORSE RACING wins HANDS DOWN!!!!!!!

Your view is shortsighted, my friend...

I have a very learned friend who decided that horse racing was the ideal gambling game for him...mainly because of his low opinion of the patrons that he ran into at the OTBs.

He saw the rusted and dented cars in the parking lot, with their bumpers held up by wire...he observed the customers' rather disheveled appearance...and noticed that the vast majority of them didn't even read the DRF -- choosing instead to read the sketchy simulcast programs which they would pick up at the door, on the way in.

These people didn't even appear to be "handicapping" at all; all they did was hastily scan the abbreviated PPs for a few minutes in-between races, and then dash to the betting window...making up their minds as they were waiting in line.

It seemed like an "intelligent" player's paradise.

"If you can't beat morons like these...then you shouldn't be gambling at all"...my smart friend told me.

Alas, he has been losing for 15 years straight...and -- worst of all -- still has nor learned his lesson...which, not coincidentally, has been emphasized in every combat book ever written:

"When going into battle...the worst mistake you can make is to underestimate your opponent."

[cj]

"When going into battle...the worst mistake you can make is to underestimate your opponent."

I would say his biggest mistake was misidentifying his opponent. The people you mention most times aren't betting enough to matter. He didn't realize there are some sharp players that bet big, and those are his competition.

[traynor]

Your view is shortsighted, my friend...

I have a very learned friend who decided that horse racing was the ideal gambling game for him...mainly because of his low opinion of the patrons that he ran into at the OTBs.

He saw the rusted and dented cars in the parking lot, with their bumpers held up by wire...he observed the customers' rather disheveled appearance...and noticed that the vast majority of them didn't even read the DRF -- choosing instead to read the sketchy simulcast programs which they would pick up at the door, on the way in.

These people didn't even appear to be "handicapping" at all; all they did was hastily scan the abbreviated PPs for a few minutes in-between races, and then dash to the betting window...making up their minds as they were waiting in line.

It seemed like an "intelligent" player's paradise.

"If you can't beat morons like these...then you shouldn't be gambling at all"...my smart friend told me.

Alas, he has been losing for 15 years straight...and -- worst of all -- still has nor learned his lesson...which, not coincidentally, has been emphasized in every combat book ever written:

"When going into battle...the worst mistake you can make is to underestimate your opponent."

You make a really good point. One cannot help but wonder what mental aberration drives someone to lose for 15 years .. and on top of it to delude themselves into believing they are engaging in an intellectual activity that is fit for sentient beings.

Perhaps it is such a deep seated desire to be right (at some time, about something) that he or she feels occasionally cashing a winning ticket is worth the losses. Or it may be as Igor Kusyshyn was so fond of saying, "When I lose I console myself with the knowledge that I did it scientifically."

[Grits]

You make a really good point. One cannot help but wonder what mental aberration drives someone to lose for 15 years .. and on top of it to delude themselves into believing they are engaging in an intellectual activity that is fit for sentient beings.

Perhaps it is such a deep seated desire to be right (at some time, about something) that he or she feels occasionally cashing a winning ticket is worth the losses. Or it may be as Igor Kusyshyn was so fond of saying, "When I lose I console myself with the knowledge that I did it scientifically."

With all of the education, all the degrees, grad school with high marks, the curious nature and inability to accept the knowledge of others--in addition to a copious amount of time on your hands for messageboards, WHY do I get the feeling you're between positions, or just simply, unemployed? :lol:

[traynor]

With all of the education, all the degrees, grad school with high marks, the curious nature and inability to accept the knowledge of others--in addition to a copious amount of time on your hands for messageboards, WHY do I get the feeling you're between positions, or just simply, unemployed? :lol:


If you define "employed" as being someone's flunky, I have been unemployed for the past 20 or so years. It is a great life! I think the only people who work to make money for others are those unable to make money for themselves. Fortunately, that is not one of my many shortcomings.

[Grits]

If you define "employed" as being someone's flunky, I have been unemployed for the past 20 or so years. It is a great life! I think the only people who work to make money for others are those unable to make money for themselves. Fortunately, that is not one of my many shortcomings.

Reading your long screeds was entertaining. But no longer, and I know that's OK.

Everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky to you?

For the record, what in the hell are you doing here, sitting on your butt in front of a keyboard, hour after hour, wasting your time with us, commoners?

Successful individuals don't speak like you have, its one of the reasons for our success. There are many of us here. Maybe you'll come to recognize this fact. ..... What a hoot.

[traynor]

Reading your long screeds was entertaining. But no longer, and I know that's OK.

Everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky to you?

For the record, what in the hell are you doing here, sitting on your butt in front of a keyboard, hour after hour, wasting your time with us, commoners?

Successful individuals don't speak like you have, its one of the reasons for our success. There are many of us here. Maybe you'll come to recognize this fact. ..... What a hoot.

Nah. I think it is more that statement about believing people are foolish who continue betting and losing hit too close to home.

And yes, I believe everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky. Anyone who can't wake up, look out the window, and decide to go kayaking for a few days instead of whatever else he or she was supposed to do--without asking anyone's permission, without making excuses, and without rationalizations--is a flunky.

[thaskalos]

Nah. I think it is more that statement about believing people are foolish who continue betting and losing hit too close to home.

And yes, I believe everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky. Anyone who can't wake up, look out the window, and decide to go kayaking for a few days instead of whatever else he or she was supposed to do--without asking anyone's permission, without making excuses, and without rationalizations--is a flunky.I hope you have no aspirations for political office in the future. These words may come back to haunt you... :)

[traynor]

I hope you have no aspirations for political office in the future. These words may come back to haunt you... :)

I was going to make an exception for public servants, but I had in mind police, firepersons, military, and such like.

It is actually an advantage, rather than a character defect. I devote more time and effort to analyzing races than most who do it as a hobby. Like Elena Shushunova said about gymnastics a few years back, "it is not that I am better at it than anyone else. It is that I am willing to work harder to be good at it than anyone else."

[CincyHorseplayer]

This thread sounds like pure degenerate gambler inquiries from the get go."I absolutely have to bet,what's better?".Horse racing is dying,compare the prototypical loser of horse betting to the most virtuous sports bettor in existence and call that reality.Yeah.Doubt the integrity of the sport because betting into a 5% take on a 15% ROI ceiling is the most enobling effort ever put forth by mankind.Why?Because I have to bet.

Degenerate gambler with a high IQ.They aren't mutually exclusive.The smarts don't alleviate the fact.This thread is just that pure and simple.Now go bet something.You have no choice!:cool:

[thaskalos]

This thread sounds like pure degenerate gambler inquiries from the get go."I absolutely have to bet,what's better?".Horse racing is dying,compare the prototypical loser of horse betting to the most virtuous sports bettor in existence and call that reality.Yeah.Doubt the integrity of the sport because betting into a 5% take on a 15% ROI ceiling is the most enobling effort ever put forth by mankind.Why?Because I have to bet.

Degenerate gambler with a high IQ.They aren't mutually exclusive.The smarts don't alleviate the fact.This thread is just that pure and simple.Now go bet something.You have no choice!:cool:

If this thread does not meet your lofty standards...then why bother participating in it?

Why don't you just leave it to us "degenerate gamblers"?

[Stillriledup]

Nah. I think it is more that statement about believing people are foolish who continue betting and losing hit too close to home.

And yes, I believe everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky. Anyone who can't wake up, look out the window, and decide to go kayaking for a few days instead of whatever else he or she was supposed to do--without asking anyone's permission, without making excuses, and without rationalizations--is a flunky.

There's something to be said for people who dont have to answer to anyone, its the greatest feeling in the world no doubt.

But, along with that great feeling, there's pressure to know that you aren't going to get a paycheck at the end of the week no matter what.

I've found that people who work for others can 'tank' or take a day off whenever they want without jeopardizing their pay. If you work for yourself, especially if you are a professional gambler, you really can't ever go in the tank. You have to perform at an incredibly high level 365 in order to stay afloat.

Some people would rather just 'go thru the motions' and collect a paycheck and when 5PM on Friday comes, they can 'turn off' their brains and have fun, enjoy their families, have diversity in their lives and so on and so forth. To be a professional gambler, you really have to put aside a lot of 'fun' activities in order to be great enough to consistently win and even then, there are no guarantees.

Some people might feel the sacrifices you need to make to be a professional sports bettor, pro horse bettor, pro stock picker, pro poker player, etc isnt worth it and they would rather be the flunkey going thru the motions, collecting a guaranteed check and enjoying life.

[Stillriledup]

Your view is shortsighted, my friend...

I have a very learned friend who decided that horse racing was the ideal gambling game for him...mainly because of his low opinion of the patrons that he ran into at the OTBs.

He saw the rusted and dented cars in the parking lot, with their bumpers held up by wire...he observed the customers' rather disheveled appearance...and noticed that the vast majority of them didn't even read the DRF -- choosing instead to read the sketchy simulcast programs which they would pick up at the door, on the way in.

These people didn't even appear to be "handicapping" at all; all they did was hastily scan the abbreviated PPs for a few minutes in-between races, and then dash to the betting window...making up their minds as they were waiting in line.

It seemed like an "intelligent" player's paradise.

"If you can't beat morons like these...then you shouldn't be gambling at all"...my smart friend told me.

Alas, he has been losing for 15 years straight...and -- worst of all -- still has nor learned his lesson...which, not coincidentally, has been emphasized in every combat book ever written:

"When going into battle...the worst mistake you can make is to underestimate your opponent."

This is one of life's greatest mysteries. How can the morons beat the smart people.

[traynor]

There's something to be said for people who dont have to answer to anyone, its the greatest feeling in the world no doubt.

But, along with that great feeling, there's pressure to know that you aren't going to get a paycheck at the end of the week no matter what.

I've found that people who work for others can 'tank' or take a day off whenever they want without jeopardizing their pay. If you work for yourself, especially if you are a professional gambler, you really can't ever go in the tank. You have to perform at an incredibly high level 365 in order to stay afloat.

Some people would rather just 'go thru the motions' and collect a paycheck and when 5PM on Friday comes, they can 'turn off' their brains and have fun, enjoy their families, have diversity in their lives and so on and so forth. To be a professional gambler, you really have to put aside a lot of 'fun' activities in order to be great enough to consistently win and even then, there are no guarantees.

Some people might feel the sacrifices you need to make to be a professional sports bettor, pro horse bettor, pro stock picker, pro poker player, etc isnt worth it and they would rather be the flunkey going thru the motions, collecting a guaranteed check and enjoying life.

I agree completely. If one is happy, content, and satisfied doing whatever they do, I am happy for them. I cannot think of a worse life (or a more boring life) than "going through the motions."

I agree, the alternative is tough. I wouldn't have it any other way. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it, and that would take all the fun out of it. Then I would have to go get a flunky job just to be different, and I know I wouldn't like that at all.

Again, there is purpose in it. Sartin argued endlessly that the worst possible race analysts were "horse players"--those who approached handicapping as sport, recreation, or "pleasure" (however measured). In contrast, the ones who went at it strictly for profit and were willing to exert the effort needed to be successful, were the ones who were the most successful.

At the same time that "horse players" were bitterly complaining that Sartin was a charlatan and fake whose "systems didn't work" a whole lot of people were raking in money on a steady basis using those same systems. No one told them it took years of losing before they could win, so they just bypassed that whole thing and went straight to the making a profit part. Some still do.

[badcompany]

IMO, the psychological part of Sportsbetting is harder than that of Horseracing.

If you get into a hole betting horses, a big score can get you back quickly. The lower payouts of Sportsbetting create a great temptation to get it back by making bigger bets.

Losing horse players tend to end up broke, but losing sportsbettors often find themselves in deep doo doo.

[thaskalos]

IMO, the psychological part of Sportsbetting is harder than that of Horseracing.

If you get into a hole betting horses, a big score can get you back quickly. The lower payouts of Sportsbetting create a great temptation to get it back by making bigger bets.

Losing horse players tend to end up broke, but losing sportsbettors often find themselves in deep doo doo.

You are right...but the "psychological part" of gambling involves more than you mention here -- and I'm sure you know that.

There are many more losing streaks in horse racing...and they last a lot longer than they do in betting sports. The length of these losing streaks often do a number on a player's psychological state.

And just because a big score at the track is possible...that doesn't mean it will be forthcoming when it's needed. :)

But the big difference, IMO, is that sports betting can peacefully and conveniently coexist with the bettor's "regular" life...whereas with horse racing, that's not the case. Horse racing makes big demands of a player's time...and this often creates psychological pressure of a different -- but just as serious -- sort.

I would not recommend that the sports bettor bet on credit though...for obvious reasons.

[CincyHorseplayer]

If this thread does not meet your lofty standards...then why bother participating in it?

Why don't you just leave it to us "degenerate gamblers"?

You know I like your threads and the conversation Thask.It just hit me though what the premise of this thread is,just thought to letters,voila.It irritated me,best case scenario vs worst case scenario,followed by pages of justification.Not buying it.The motive tore down the house of cards in this kid's opinion.

[thaskalos]

You know I like your threads and the conversation Thask.It just hit me though what the premise of this thread is,just thought to letters,voila.It irritated me,best case scenario vs worst case scenario,followed by pages of justification.Not buying it.The motive tore down the house of cards in this kid's opinion.

Just messing with you, Cincy...:)

You have a right to your opinion...as have I, and everyone else.

No one loved this game more than me...and not many have supported it as much as I have over the last 30 years.

But our game has changed...and not for the better. The game today is not being run with the horseplayer in mind...and I fear that things will only get worse.

This is not the game I fell in love with...and I no longer feel that it deserves my loyalty.

My hat goes off to those who still feel that this is the best gambling game around...but I can no longer agree with this opinion.

And believe me when I say that I never thought these words would ever come out of my keyboard.

[CincyHorseplayer]

Just messing with you, Cincy...:)

You have a right to your opinion...as have I, and everyone else.

No one loved this game more than me...and not many have supported it as much as I have over the last 30 years.

But our game has changed...and not for the better. The game today is not being run with the horseplayer in mind...and I fear that things will only get worse.

This is not the game I fell in love with...and I no longer feel that it deserves my loyalty.

My hat goes off to those who still feel that this is the best gambling game around...but I can no longer agree with this opinion.

And believe me when I say that I never thought these words would ever come out of my keyboard.

I know you love the sport or you wouldn't be enjoyable to read!

I don't think anything has ever been about the player at all since it's inception.Nowadays they think dollar dogs and dollar beers are what attract the players.Like it's a church bingo or some crap.Sweeping that aside and looking purely at races,other than my hometrack where I have managed a bizarre means of winning off $15-20 exactas and an average mutuel of 2-1,I change venues constantly based on cards,have loyalty to zero place and pass races the second my mind get's mildly fed up with the look of a race.It works.

I don't know the good old days.Like I said in an earlier post I fell in love with this game the year Quinn put out his "Playing The Horses In Troubled Times" book.Apparently it has always sucked for me.The pure romance has worn off on me but it still retains it's charms except with a touch of seeking out the good on an individual race basis.The passing attack is my whole key.You know I don't bet any horse less than 2-1 in any form.I'm actually amazed I don't sit out entire cards and days.I thought it would be different.I'm not crushing reality.But the opportunities are still there.And I'm getting better as a player.Mainly because of nonhandicapping things.Self handicapping.Odds rules brackets.Race day prep.Specific bet parameters.Just being organized.Mainly just adjusting to betting so many different tracks and situations.It's taken a while.It will still take a while.But the picture is coming more into focus for me.there is still plenty of money to take out of this game.I think the biggest thing is the game itself.Unless I wake up one day and hate a horse,I'm always going to love it.I don't function off sentiment though.But the sentiment keeps my creativity and imagination going in ways that any other betting would never do.That I actually love horses and this game gives me the werewithal to see this through.When I was a reckless kid I had some hellacious win streaks that changed me forever.Now I'm older and realizing what it takes to be a consistent winner,the breadth of it.I'm almost there!Soul intact!

[mannyberrios]

Great post Cincy, horse racing is winning

[Grits]

And yes, I believe everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky. Anyone who can't wake up, look out the window, and decide to go kayaking for a few days instead of whatever else he or she was supposed to do--without asking anyone's permission, without making excuses, and without rationalizations--is a flunky.

You're mistaken. I only bet for entertainment and the love of the game. Nothing you've said hits home with me. Not anything other than you calling others, flunkies. Indicating they have lesser skills than yourself, when if truth were told, you couldn't be found in a workplace environment because you, yourself, lack the skill.

I'm a woman, and I built a company 25 years ago, (probably when you were in diapers) I still own it today, though, semi-retired. I have two assistant flunkies and 35 other flunkies that I employ. When there's a problem, I'm in the office with these flunkies, solving the problem. When there's bonuses handed out, these flunkies that have been with me, some for decades, are pleased. They've worked hard, and so have I.

What I've not done in these past 25 years is refer to them, and all others that work every single day all over this nation, as FLUNKIES. No matter what walk of life.

Hope your kayak doesn't roll; keep it in the deep. You never know, you could find yourself pulled from waters, bashed against rocks, hospitalized with nurses and doctors (more flunkies) taking care of you. Good luck with this one.

Guys like you are a dime a dozen on the internet. Every day, all day long. I can get tossed for writing this post, but I couldn't care less.

[badcompany]

I would not recommend that the sports bettor bet on credit though...for obvious reasons.

I haven't bet sports in a very long time. So, I'm not sure how much things have changed, but, back then most of the bets were made through bookies, on credit. You called in your bets and settled up at the end of the week.

[traynor]

You're mistaken. I only bet for entertainment and the love of the game. Nothing you've said hits home with me. Not anything other than you calling others, flunkies. Indicating they have lesser skills than yourself, when if truth were told, you couldn't be found in a workplace environment because you, yourself, lack the skill.

I'm a woman, and I built a company 25 years ago, (probably when you were in diapers) I still own it today, though, semi-retired. I have two assistant flunkies and 35 other flunkies that I employ. When there's a problem, I'm in the office with these flunkies, solving the problem. When there's bonuses handed out, these flunkies that have been with me, some for decades, are pleased. They've worked hard, and so have I.

What I've not done in these past 25 years is refer to them, and all others that work every single day all over this nation, as FLUNKIES. No matter what walk of life.

Hope your kayak doesn't roll; keep it in the deep. You never know, you could find yourself pulled from waters, bashed against rocks, hospitalized with nurses and doctors (more flunkies) taking care of you. Good luck with this one.

Guys like you are a dime a dozen on the internet. Every day, all day long. I can get tossed for writing this post, but I couldn't care less.

Good grief! Is that supposed to be a curse on my kayaking? That is the most ridiculous attempt I have ever been privileged to read. Thank you for putting a bright, warm fuzzy smack dab in the middle of my day.

Some people need to follow. If they have no one to lead them, they are like lost sheep. For such people, "conventional employment" is a haven from the stresses and anxieties that other thrive on. I am not one of those people, and I never regret that simple fact of life.

On the contrary, I believe that a high degree of self-efficacy is mandatory for successful wagering at a professional level. I learned that a long time ago from a fellow named Ken Uston, and nothing has happened since then to alter that opinion one bit. If others are happy doing what they are doing, great. I think that the basic, underlying reason people lose--especially for prolonged periods of time while "learning the game"--is directly related to a lack of self-efficacy.

Stroking people's egos while watching them crash and burn financially does not strike me as particularly useful or desirable behavior.

[Tom]

Originally Posted by traynor
And yes, I believe everyone who is employed by a corporation or entity, large or small, is a flunky. Anyone who can't wake up, look out the window, and decide to go kayaking for a few days instead of whatever else he or she was supposed to do--without asking anyone's permission, without making excuses, and without rationalizations--is a flunky.


You are either rich or irresponsible.
Who pays your bills while you don't contribute to anything?

Flunkies?
How does TOOL sound to you?
Why do you waste your time...and OURS...on this home for the flunkies?
Another anonomous Walter Mitty living out his dreams on a hrose board. Pathetic.

[Tom]

Reading your long screeds was entertaining. But no longer, and I know that's OK.



I must disagree with you, Grits.
His post wer NEVER entertaining.....I can smell BS a long ways off, and he made my eyes water. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

I must admit I don't understand the hostilities being displayed here towards traynor. Maybe senility is setting in early for me, and I'm not remembering something from the past that some folks (like Grits and Tom) have stuck in their craw...

I wish people wouldn't take so personally the things they see written here from time to time, especially when said things aren't specifically directed at them.

[Tom]

Nothing from the past...calling us all flunkies, I thought I was pretty civil to him. I'm done with him - off to IGGYland with the rest of the dull tools.

[PaceAdvantage]

We've all been called much worse. I work for someone else for a living, and I didn't give his comment a second thought.

[cj]

We've all been called much worse. I work for someone else for a living, and I didn't give his comment a second thought.

People don't like to be talked down to would be my guess.

[PaceAdvantage]

People don't like to be talked down to would be my guess.True, but it's not like he came right out of the blue with that comment. His comment was based on being confronted with the following:

With all of the education, all the degrees, grad school with high marks, the curious nature and inability to accept the knowledge of others--in addition to a copious amount of time on your hands for messageboards, WHY do I get the feeling you're between positions, or just simply, unemployed? :lol:

[cj]

True, but it's not like he came right out of the blue with that comment. His comment was based on being confronted with the following:

I understand. But how is that known? I suspect it was posted by him earlier. Who does that on a horse racing message board?

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm not going to get bogged down in the minutia of this particular "feud."

I just see it as totally unnecessary and yet another distraction completely unrelated to the topic at hand.

[Grits]

You're making a case that your flunkies are in the trenches grinding it out with you and that its not at all bad to BE a flunky, yet, your tone seems to indicate something different. If being a flunky is fine and dandy in your world, why would you take offense and lash out?

DON'T type words into my posts.

I lashed out because I've never thought of my employees as flunkies, or anyone else for that matter that works for a living everyday. Nor do I call them . . . LOST SHEEP. I worked for a bank for 10 years before I went into business for myself. I wasn't a flunky, neither were those I worked with, or for.

Please, if you will, don't read squat into my tone, when there's nothing in my tone, but the fact that I don't tolerate anyone being called a flunky.

[Grits]

I'm not going to get bogged down in the minutia of this particular "feud."

I just see it as totally unnecessary and yet another distraction completely unrelated to the topic at hand.

There's no feud, I said something. You don't like it; you own the place. It happens. I can handle it. And yes, it was based on his own statements.

Professional horseplayers, professionals--period--in any field, don't speak about others like this (unless they're running for president). You know this as well as I.

[PaceAdvantage]

There's no feud, I said something. You don't like it; you own the place. It happens. I can handle it. And yes, it was based on his own statements.

Professional horseplayers, professionals--period--in any field, don't speak about others like this (unless they're running for president). You know this as well as I.It's not that I don't like it. It's just that I don't understand the need for it...you can say whatever you'd like, within reason of course. That's your right.

And as for how professional horseplayers or professionals in any field speak about others, you know as well as I do that this world is made up of all kinds. Many such professionals are arrogant by nature and tend to look down upon those who haven't achieved as much in this life. So no, I don't agree with you theory that professionals in any field don't speak like this about others.

[Stillriledup]

DON'T type words into my posts.

I lashed out because I've never thought of my employees as flunkies, or anyone else for that matter that works for a living everyday. Nor do I call them . . . LOST SHEEP. I worked for a bank for 10 years before I went into business for myself. I wasn't a flunky, neither were those I worked with, or for.

Please, if you will, don't read squat into my tone, when there's nothing in my tone, but the fact that I don't tolerate anyone being called a flunky.

If you dont think of your employees as flunkies, why would a comment about flunkies get you up in arms? Since your employes are not flunkies, im not even sure why you are upset in the first place, its not like Tray was talking about you, right? He was talking about flunkies....and since you and your employees are NOT flunkies, why so serious?

[PaceAdvantage]

If you dont think of your employees as flunkies, why would a comment about flunkies get you up in arms? Since your employes are not flunkies, im not even sure why you are upset in the first place, its not like Tray was talking about you, right? He was talking about flunkies....and since you and your employees are NOT flunkies, why so serious?A better question is...why are you doing your best to prolong this tangent?

[Stillriledup]

A better question is...why are you doing your best to prolong this tangent?

I apologize for prolonging it, that wasnt my intention. Hopefully we can get back on topic.

[acorn54]

Actually, all those studious types who are able to do well in horse racing or sports are all better off trying to tackle the financial markets.

Talk about life changing scores, UNLIMITED profit potential, and HUGE pools...

And I'd also like to take issue with Thaskalos saying you don't have to worry about betting big sums in sports. How long is a book going to take your action if you're constantly beating them?

I'm not a sports bettor, but I've read books like The Smart Money by Michael Konik where big winning sports bettors have to resort to all sorts of tricks to get bets down across town...using beards and whatnot...


financial markets i suppose are fertile ground. i think that dick schmidt, went into commodities from horseracing, he could chime in on this.
i don't know about how the sports betting environment is nowadays, but i do remember a fellow called clem banker if memory serves me, on a 60 minute piece talking about his life betting on sports, some years back.

[eurocapper]

At least horse racing more difficult to fix than say some tennis match. The horse and other jockeys may not be cooperative, and it's analyzed by players in every detail.

[badcompany]

A flunky is someone who performs menial tasks, as opposed to individuals who undertake functions of the utmost importance, such as handicapping a horse race.:lol:

[Solid_Gold]

As I said previously, I have seen Traynor around before on other boards. He talks a good game but rarely if ever puts his betting opinions into type. Uses his intellectual chatter to make you think he knows something but never proves it.
Another message board BS artist so best to ignore him, IMO.

[Solid_Gold]

Back to the topic?

If you want value for your money then it's horse racing. Sports betting (football) offers what, 5.5-5 odds? Bases could be even less.
But you have a 50% chance of being right until the point spreads come into play. Now for the same hundy with horses you have the possibility of winning thousands. Yes, you have more choices but the reward is totally worth the risk for me. To each their own though. I guess it's whatever you think you're best at?

[PaceAdvantage]

How should he prove it?

Post four horses a race, then come back after the races are over and tell us how much he cashed for?

[thaskalos]

As I said previously, I have seen Traynor around before on other boards. He talks a good game but rarely if ever puts his betting opinions into type. Uses his intellectual chatter to make you think he knows something but never proves it.
Another message board BS artist so best to ignore him, IMO.

You say that Traynor "only talks a good game but rarely if ever puts his betting opinions into type"...choosing instead to only use his "intellectual chatter" as proof of what he knows.

This being an online message board, why should Traynor offer us anything more than "intellectual chatter"? Isn't this what message boards of this type are all about?

I can't understand guys like you, friend.

An intelligent, winning player -- with over 30 years of experience in the arenas of gambling -- sits down with us to offer some insights about the games he plays...and we are supposed to grill him because he doesn't post his picks as proof of what he knows?

I've read almost all of Traynor's posts...and I like them. He explains himself thoroughly...and seems to know what he is talking about. And that's good enough for me.

Does he enjoy the sort of financial freedom that would allow him to look out his window on any given day, and decide to go kayaking instead of going to work? I don't know...but I hope he does.

Does he travel the world with his gambling profits...and has he really been tutored by the Ken Ustons of the gambling world? I don't know that either...and I never will know.

But I know that he has made a solid contribution to this board...and I hope he continues to share his thoughts with us.

Unless a member here is trying to sell me something, then I don't expect him to share his picks with me. Just a little "intellectual chatter" is enough...

[Solid_Gold]

Post four horses a race, then come back after the races are over and tell us how much he cashed for?

PA, since I'm sure your comment was directed at me. Yes, I do post 4 horses per race (as does Gapfire and others) in races with supers or large fields. But I have yet to come back and say how much I have hit for! So you are mistaken on that erroneous point!
I simply give my opinion on a race is all. Now unlike most (not all) of the so-called experts in here, I do post selections!

[Solid_Gold]

You say that Traynor "only talks a good game but rarely if ever puts his betting opinions into type"...choosing instead to only use his "intellectual chatter" as proof of what he knows.

This being an online message board, why should Traynor offer us anything more than "intellectual chatter"? Isn't this what message boards of this type are all about?

I can't understand guys like you, friend.

An intelligent, winning player -- with over 30 years of experience in the arenas of gambling -- sits down with us to offer some insights about the games he plays...and we are supposed to grill him because he doesn't post his picks as proof of what he knows?

I've read almost all of Traynor's posts...and I like them. He explains himself thoroughly...and seems to know what he is talking about. And that's good enough for me.

Does he enjoy the sort of financial freedom that would allow him to look out his window on any given day, and decide to go kayaking instead of going to work? I don't know...but I hope he does.

Does he travel the world with his gambling profits...and has he really been tutored by the Ken Ustons of the gambling world? I don't know that either...and I never will know.

But I know that he has made a solid contribution to this board...and I hope he continues to share his thoughts with us.

Unless a member here is trying to sell me something, then I don't expect him to share his picks with me. Just a little "intellectual chatter" is enough...

I too do NOT have a job other than handicapping/betting the horses! The chatter is all BS to me until you show me and everyone else what cha got!

[PaceAdvantage]

I too do NOT have a job other than handicapping/betting the horses! The chatter is all BS to me until you show me and everyone else what cha got!That's your opinion, and not one shared by many here...

Let me ask you something. You take a lot of crap on this board, and you post picks. Why is that?

Shouldn't your picks have "shown us what cha got?"

I mean, it's pretty simply. You post picks, then you post how the picks did. If you win, nobody can say shite to you...you're a winner.

So what's your problem?

[thaskalos]

I too do NOT have a job other than handicapping/betting the horses! The chatter is all BS to me until you show me and everyone else what cha got!

Since you are an expert handicapper yourself...allow me to ask you a question:

What do you think about your chances of success in a heads-up handicapping contest with me?

I am trying to come up with a new way to resurrect the Handicappers Corner...and I think a heads-up handicapping contest with you may do the trick.

[hugh]

Doing a whole lot better betting sports than I ever have playing the ponies. IMO picking between two sides in a game is easier than picking a winner in a 10 horse field.
If you want to talk sports do it in the OT sports forum with me.
15-6 YTD college pig skin.

[nat1223]

If you have never been through a losing streak in sports betting let me tell you that its the worst.. your money can go much quicker than you think and the stress is tough. you may have lsoing streaks in horse racing but your not losing as much as you would in sports betting. i have know many players that went on 20-3 runs and another that went 30-6 and then both players finished the season hitting only 52.4 percent. both players had detailed systems in place with thousands of data..
lets just say that both horse racing and sports betting is not easy to come out on top!!

[Maximillion]

Not to go off topic, but having just read thru this thread im also a little confused at the treatment traynor has been given here......

Im not a pari mutual consultant, but what does just "posting picks" (without any kind of foreword or analysis) bring to the table here?

[Jay Trotter]

Since you are an expert handicapper yourself...allow me to ask you a question:

What do you think about your chances of success in a heads-up handicapping contest with me?

I am trying to come up with a new way to resurrect the Handicappers Corner...and I think a heads-up handicapping contest with you may do the trick.I know we're not allowed to wager on a handicapping website (oh, the irony) but I will be backing Gus if SG should find the balls to take up his challenge! :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Not to go off topic, but having just read thru this thread im also a little confused at the treatment traynor has been given here......

Im not a pari mutual consultant, but what does just "posting picks" (without any kind of foreword or analysis) bring to the table here?Not much...

[LottaKash]

I've read almost all of Traynor's posts...and I like them. He explains himself thoroughly...and seems to know what he is talking about. And that's good enough for me.

But I know that he has made a solid contribution to this board...and I hope he continues to share his thoughts with us.

Unless a member here is trying to sell me something, then I don't expect him to share his picks with me. Just a little "intellectual chatter" is enough...

I share your sentiments completely Thaskalos....

As with Traynor and several others, I also enjoy your insightful and thought provoking posts, as well...

I enjoy them much...:cool:

[pondman]

Sports betting doesn't offer unique spot plays with large margins. You also need to spend more time shopping around for odds, which means you probably need to live in an ash can city. The difference between a winning and a losing season may be the result of shopping for an extra 1/2 point.

[mannyberrios]

Sports betting doesn't offer unique spot plays with large margins. You also need to spend more time shopping around for odds, which means you probably need to live in an ash can city. The difference between a winning and a losing season may be the result of shopping for an extra 1/2 point.
Horse racing is winning!

[grant miller]

I was in my local o.t.b. monday and ,I was the youngest person in there (I,m 47) ! any body younger than me would rather play the slots or quick draw ,alot of people my way are turned off ,because of the super trainer-gas horses. but on the pos side there was 3000+ at batavia downs to see archangel race will they be back?

[Ca9]

As I said previously, I have seen Traynor around before on other boards. He talks a good game but rarely if ever puts his betting opinions into type. Uses his intellectual chatter to make you think he knows something but never proves it.
Another message board BS artist so best to ignore him, IMO.

Solid Gold hes proven it back in 2006

Minimum acceptable odds are 3/2. If you can't get
the odds, pass the race.

Dec9 Beulah Race 7
#3 PeaceAndJoy----------------WON $2.40

Dec9 BayMeadows Race 2
#6 YodelinforLynne------------WON $4.40

Dec9 BayMeadows Race 7
#7 KellyCarson----------------WON $8.00

Dec9 BayMeadows Race 8
#5 GreatestHope---------------WON $4.80

Dec9 Calder Race 1
#7 OneforBud------------------WON $4.20

Dec9 Calder Race 10
#3 Machismo-------------------WON $9.00

Dec9 CharlesTown Race 4
#1 Mudesh---------------------OUT

Dec9 CharlesTown Race 5
#3 CityAvenger----------------WON $3.20

Dec9 CharlesTown Race 8
#3 RemarqableTale-------------WON $5.40

Dec9 CharlesTown Race 10
#1 OZoneLayer-----------------PLACE (NO BET 4/5)

Dec9 FairGrounds Race 6
#2 CortsPB--------------------OUT

Dec9 FairGrounds Race 7
#7 TortugaStraits-------------WON $3.60

Dec9 Laurel Race 5
#9 PuDew----------------------WON $3.20

Dec9 Mountaineer Race 8
#4 HighHeritage---------------OUT (NO BET 0.80/1)

Dec9 Philadelphia Race 4
#4 MeandYou-------------------WON $7.40

Dec9 TampaBay Race 1
#1 MikesClassic---------------WON $4.20

Dec9 TampaBay Race 7
#5 BarkleySound---------------WON $3.60

Dec9 TampaBay Race 10
#7 DreamofAngels--------------WON $3.20

Dec9 TurfwayPark Race 2
#1 Recalcitrant---------------WON $3.20

Dec9 TurfwayPark Race 5
#8 DiamondMiss----------------WON $4.20

Dec9 TurfwayPark Race 12
#1 LiverUp--------------------OUT

Dec9 TurfParadise Race 4
#6 StormReview----------------WON $3.00

7 Bettable races, WON 4 at $8.00, $9.00, $7.40, and $5.40 = $29.80
$29.80 - $14 = +$15.80
That was great fun. We'll have to do it all again someday