more unexplainable NYRA pay-off rules

[sammy the sage]

came into play today...

p/3 w/the bomb 3 DH...paid more than p/4...almost DOUBLE :faint:

In other words....w/a DH...p/4 payoff's THE same regardless of odds on horses...whilst p/3 is divided by odds...absolutely CONFOUNDING...astonishing...brilliant... :rolleyes:

Lucky for me...I didn't play the p/4 ;)

[jefftune]

Really is crazy - I was wondering why they didn't post the longer P4 payoff and then found out there wasn't one!

[Stillriledup]

Yep, that's a crushing beat in the pick 4 if you have the longshot and you DH with the favorite and get the same price. There must be some reason they do it that way, im just not sure what it is.

[takeout]

There must be some reason they do it that way,I can't think of any good one. ??

[Rise Over Run]

It's a NYSR&WB Rule, so all tracks in NY must follow, not just NYRA:

(h) Dead heats. In the event of a dead heat for win in any or all pick four races, all pick four tickets designating either horse to win in said race or races shall be eligible for participation in the remaining pick four races, and the net pool shall be equally distributed to the winners, that is, the net pool will be divided by the total amount represented by all winning tickets and the resulting price, per dollar, and after breakage, shall be the payoff price, which shall be uniform for any winning combination.

[Si2see]

I hit the pick4 on my backup ticket. I had all in the last leg. Everyone was so shocked that it paid so little, and maybe I should'be been upset, but in my eyes it paid around $245 more with the dead heat than it would've with only the 6 winning... which it sure looked like the 6 got up, but man were we screaming for david cohen... he gave the ride of his life.

[Tom]

It's a NYSR&WB Rule, so all tracks in NY must follow, not just NYRA:

(h) Dead heats. In the event of a dead heat for win in any or all pick four races, all pick four tickets designating either horse to win in said race or races shall be eligible for participation in the remaining pick four races, and the net pool shall be equally distributed to the winners, that is, the net pool will be divided by the total amount represented by all winning tickets and the resulting price, per dollar, and after breakage, shall be the payoff price, which shall be uniform for any winning combination.

Another thread bashing the wrong organization. :rolleyes:

[FantasticDan]

Steve Christ bemoaned it in his blog yesterday:

http://www.drf.com/blogs/saratoga-day-32-82512

Before you start yelling at me about it: Yes, it makes no sense how dead-heats are handled parimutuelly in NY, a topic I have tried to get anyone at the NYRA or the NYSRWB to address for years without success.

The quick version is that they pay out in proportion in the win pool, the double pool, exactas, trifectas, superfectas and pick-3's, but treat the dead-heat winners as if they were the identical price in pick-4's and pick-6's. Anyone who actually used Golden Ticket in either of those bets got a lot less than he should have.

There is absolutely no reason that p-4's and p-6's can't be treated the same proportional way as every other pool.

[Itamaraca]

but man were we screaming for david cohen... he gave the ride of his life.

The other day, I put my wallet in my pocket, a rear pocket with a zipper, and pulled the zipper closed. My wallet contained a large sum of money that my boss wanted me to drop off to a client. My boss was 'screaming' for me not to lose my wallet before I got to the client's office. Half way there, I was a LOCK. Then just before I was about to walk into the client's office , I lost my wallet.:bang:

It was certainly the (train) 'ride of' my 'life' to the client's office. And my boss was very understanding. :rolleyes:

[classhandicapper]

At some point this issue almost had to have been discussed before it was programmed. You have to wonder what the thinking was.

[PaceAdvantage]

Steve ChristIf I only had a dollar for every time I see this or Lucas, I'd be a rich man...

[Beachbabe]

If I only had a dollar for every time I see this or Lucas, I'd be a rich man...

It's Divine Intervention.

[cj]

If I only had a dollar for every time I see this or Lucas, I'd be a rich man...

Don't forget Jerkins.

[JustRalph]

If I only had a dollar for every time I see this or Lucas, I'd be a rich man...

It's dependent on your point of view I guess.

Next time I decide to cuss I will use it.

" Steven H. Christ!"

[tbwinner]

I apologize in advance if this has been covered recently.

Can someone please explain to me the logic behind the pick four rule where the entire pool is just split among ALL the winning tickets equally rather than doing the normal dead-heat process and halving the payouts like they do in the pick three??

I am not trying to bash NYRA or start a fury around this but does anyone know if this is the process at other tracks too? I was only somewhat informed on this rule but the Alpha/Golden Ticket Dead Heat really opened my eyes, especially this:
Pick 3 ending with Travers

8-1-3 (Golden Ticket) $1,907.00
8-1-6 (Alpha) $141.50

Pick 4 ending in Travers 2/9-8-1-3/6 $990.00

I did NOT play this pick four sequence, however I did play Golden Ticket intra-race only and considered playing a pick four but did not due to staying within my ticket strategy guidelines........and boy am I glad I didn't....

[tbwinner]

I apologize in advance if this has been covered recently.

Can someone please explain to me the logic behind the pick four rule where the entire pool is just split among ALL the winning tickets equally rather than doing the normal dead-heat process and halving the payouts like they do in the pick three??

I am not trying to bash NYRA or start a fury around this but does anyone know if this is the process at other tracks too? I was only somewhat informed on this rule but the Alpha/Golden Ticket Dead Heat really opened my eyes, especially this:
Pick 3 ending with Travers

8-1-3 (Golden Ticket) $1,907.00
8-1-6 (Alpha) $141.50

Pick 4 ending in Travers 2/9-8-1-3/6 $990.00

I did NOT play this pick four sequence, however I did play Golden Ticket intra-race only and considered playing a pick four but did not due to staying within my ticket strategy guidelines........and boy am I glad I didn't....

Thanks PA for moving this. Didn't see this thread!

And I apologize for attempting to put the blame on NYRA.....looks like it is a NYS thing.

[Dahoss9698]

I apologize in advance if this has been covered recently.

Can someone please explain to me the logic behind the pick four rule where the entire pool is just split among ALL the winning tickets equally rather than doing the normal dead-heat process and halving the payouts like they do in the pick three??

I am not trying to bash NYRA or start a fury around this but does anyone know if this is the process at other tracks too? I was only somewhat informed on this rule but the Alpha/Golden Ticket Dead Heat really opened my eyes, especially this:
Pick 3 ending with Travers

8-1-3 (Golden Ticket) $1,907.00
8-1-6 (Alpha) $141.50

Pick 4 ending in Travers 2/9-8-1-3/6 $990.00

I did NOT play this pick four sequence, however I did play Golden Ticket intra-race only and considered playing a pick four but did not due to staying within my ticket strategy guidelines........and boy am I glad I didn't....

There is no real logic behind it. It's a dumb rule that the NYSRWB put in and it (as well as others) need to be changed.

[takeout]

There is no real logic behind it. It's a dumb rule...And I don’t think NY has a monopoly on it either. Don’t they do this same dumb stuff in some other states? (California, maybe?) I seem to recall someone complaining about it in Pick 3’s somewhere a long time ago.

The only logic for it that has ever been suggested to me is that of greed by grubbing for extra breakage. That may not be the reason but it sure wouldn’t be much of a stretch.

[Rutgers]

...There must be some reason they do it that way, im just not sure what it is.

Maybe for the sake of consistency…in the event of a late scratch after the start of the sequence in the Pick 4 or Pick 6, the rules don’t require or allow the pools to be split in the form of consolation payoffs. But in the DD and pick 3 wagers there are consolation payoffs. So in the event of a dead heat, the DD and Pick 3 pools are split, while the Pick 4 and Pick 6 pools are not.

The vast majority of the players who hit the Pick 4 actually benefited from the rule. If the pool was split the 2/8/1/6(Alpha) combo would have paid less than $990. The 2/8/1/3(Golden Ticket) would have paid more, but a lot more players played Alpha then Golden Ticket, therefore more benefited financially than were harmed.

As a regular player of NYRA Pick 4’s and Pick 6’s, I have actually considered the pluses and minus of the rule long-term, and once again it pains me to admit it, but I like the rule as it is for those wagers.

[cj]

As a regular player of NYRA Pick 4’s and Pick 6’s, I have actually considered the pluses and minus of the rule long-term, and once again it pains me to admit it, but I like the rule as it is for those wagers.

While you may like it, I just don't see any way it is fair to those that had Golden Ticket.

[Jeff P]

Personally, I see it as a dumb rule that needs to be changed. Why? I can't (personally) make a valid argument (in my own head) for having a parimutuel payoff not be proportional to the money bet in a parimutuel pool. And that's exactly what this rule does.

I'm guessing that if the State of NY were to poll horseplayers in NY about this issue that the vast majority would see it the same way that Crist, CJ, myself, and others do.

I would further argue that what I expressed in the above sentence (the industry's lack of getting input from its customers) is at the core of racing's (many) problems. Too many of racing's decisions (rules included) are made by people who don't bet.


-jp

.

[Rutgers]

While you may like it, I just don't see any way it is fair to those that had Golden Ticket.

The basis of pari-mutual wagering is the net pool is split evenly among all the winning wagers based on $2 tickets, which is what was done. It up to the local jurisdiction to decide whether to split the pool or not in the event of a dead heat. The rules for payouts in the event of a dead heat were known prior to the race and were followed, you can’t say it was unfair. You can make the argument that you would prefer a split pool, but to say it is unfair isn’t a valid argument. Because you could also argue that splitting the pool isn’t fair either, those that had Golden Ticket in the last leg did the same thing as those that had Alpha, picked the winners of the 4 designated races, why should they get paid more for doing the same thing. The NYSRWB rules for the Pick 4/6 make no mention of paying out in proportion to any odds, only the need to pick the winners of the designated races. (Keep in mind, pari-mutual wagering grew out of and is a variation of auction pools, not fixed odds wagering.)

Each time there is a dead heat in the Pick 4 or Pick 6, some players are going to be hurt and some are going to benefit, regardless of what the rule is. My point is by not splitting the pool more players benefit than are harmed by it. And over the long-run most players are going to benefit more from the rule then are going to be hurt by it, that is why it is a good rule.

[cj]

And over the long-run most players are going to benefit more from the rule then are going to be hurt by it, that is why it is a good rule.

If the government decided to pay out $10,000 a year to people whose name starts with a consonant, that would benefit more people too. But that doesn't make it fair to those whose names start with a vowel. If there were consistency with the other pools, I would buy your argument more, but there is no consistency. If it were so fair, why isn't this used in the daily double or the pick 3, or even the win pool?

[takeout]

My point is by not splitting the pool more players benefit than are harmed by it. And over the long-run most players are going to benefit more from the rule then are going to be hurt by it, that is why it is a good rule.Respectfully disagree. That is exactly why it’s a bad rule, it doesn’t let the cream rise to the top.

[takeout]

I wouldn’t be surprised if this type of thing is a lot more prevalent than most of us think. For some reason (I guess there’s a reason ??) consistency and common sense aren’t being used by the rule writers. This, to me, is screwing with the very foundation of the game.

[foregoforever]

Is it possible that the tote system is to blame for this?

Recall from the Pick Six scandal that the complete pick six wagers were not transmitted to the host track. They weren't sent until after the 4th race, and then only the live tickets. And that wasn't just for the BC races, since the Drexel guys had earlier trial runs of their scheme.

If that's still the way it works, then a dead heat in one of the early races would throw a wrench into the works. The system would have to be capable of sending two sets of live tickets. And a robust system would have to be designed to handle multiple dead heats, however unlikely, so there could be even more sets of live tickets. If the system isn't designed to handle that sort of thing, then the only alternative is divide the pool evenly.

No idea if the Pick 4 is handled similarly. I'm just trying to figure out why the 6 and 4 are handled differently from the double and pick 3.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I know Ontario treats dead heats in Pick 3's and 4's the same way. I'm not sure of which jurisdiction treats it differently, but if I recall correctly some give two separate payouts (I believe NY and Ontario both give different payouts on doubles in a dead heat situation).

Some jurisdictions have different payouts on 2 of 3 or 3 of 4 situations as well depending what leg you missed.

It would be a project to come out with a list of how these situations are treated in each jurisdiction along with how scratches are treated in horizontal wagers.

It would be nice to get uniform drug and betting rules in the near future, including standard base amounts as well for results purposes.

[Charli125]

And a robust system would have to be designed to handle multiple dead heats, however unlikely, so there could be even more sets of live tickets.

We only wish we had a robust tote system. Our current tote system is like an Apple II compared to our current computers...it's antiquated and outdated.

[Charli125]

http://static.scripting.com/photos/archive/2008/07/01/mainframeComputer/original.jpg

I was able to take a tour of the current tote system and I took a picture for you guys. Cutting edge stuff.