So, how many months of suspension should Javier get?

[cj]

If you don't know what I'm talking about, check out the replay of the 5th at Saratoga today. Here is what the chart caller had to say about a horse that lost by a neck:

"GIMME CREDIT saved ground on the first turn, settled nicely while off the inside on the backstretch, was asked midway through the far turn, came three wide into the stretch, moved a bit further out while under a drive, rallied under right hand urging, closed well to make a bid near the sixteenth-pole, battled three abreast late, had the rider stand up in the saddle five strides before the wire, rode with one hand for four of those strides, was given an extra push while still up in the saddle in the final stride and missed the win while narrowly getting the place."

[KirisClown]

YTm-dPgBzLU

[bigmack]

His defense will be not unlike that of Georgie Costanza in the shtupping the cleaning lady episode.

You mean standing in the irons BEFORE the wire is frowned upon?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/HorseRacingForum-PaceAdvantageCom-HorseRacingMessageBoard-SohowmanymonthsofsuspensionshouldJavierget-.png

[Grits]

Not a good thing, not a good thing at all. I know Chad was pleased. :rolleyes:

EDIT to add.

From writer, Jeannie Rees, "Castellano calls, the Saratoga stewards and says he misjudged the finish line."

[Dahoss9698]

I'd love to know what line he thought he saw.

I'm not sure how long his suspension should be (if he even gets one) but it needs to be something to deter this stuff. Even if it was just a dumb mistake, he should be penalized. Just like any of us would be when we make a mistake at work.

[RXB]

I'd say three to five days, sort of the typical riding infraction suspension. Obviously just a mistake and it didn't affect the order of finish but they'll want to make the point that it's unacceptable.

[Grits]

Tod Marks' photos show him standing up in the irons. He and Chad are very good friends, and there's no doubt that he's sorry. Still, a trainer can't be pleased by something like this.

Sure are some nice grins on the faces of Rick Violette and his groom.

http://todmarks.photoshelter.com/gallery/Day-31-August-24/G00006vWCS_bgadQ/1

[nijinski]

Imagine how Shoemaker felt when he misjudged the finish line in the Derby.
Iron Liege passes Gallant Man.

[Dave Schwartz]

All I can say is "Wow."

[nijinski]

BTW the Shoe got 15 days according to an ESPN report for rules violation. But that was a long time ago and in Kentucky.

[Robert Fischer]

I'd say three to five days, sort of the typical riding infraction suspension. Obviously just a mistake and it didn't affect the order of finish but they'll want to make the point that it's unacceptable.
I agree that it did not affect the order of finish. The horse appeared to "hang" anyway just prior to crossing the imaginary finish line. :rolleyes:
Not sure of the rules here(not sure if it matters that he did not cost a placing).


yesterday, also in race 5, JL may well have cost a placing on the 7 Southern Joy with a failure to persevere. Compare riders in this less than flattering photo for 4th placing:
http://oi49.tinypic.com/2v0ikyc.jpg

[davew]

horse would have still gotten 2nd

maybe was trying the european riding style

[Itamaraca]

So the same stewards that have let this punk HERD with impunity all these years are now expected to fine him for standing up prematurely?

:lol::lol:

What, did one of them have a win bet on the horse?

[cj]

I'd love to know what line he thought he saw.

I'm not sure how long his suspension should be (if he even gets one) but it needs to be something to deter this stuff. Even if it was just a dumb mistake, he should be penalized. Just like any of us would be when we make a mistake at work.

Exactly. It is a BS excuse. There was nothing resembling a finish line.

[cj]

So the same stewards that have let this punk HERD with impunity all these years are now expected to fine him for standing up prematurely?

:lol::lol:

What, did one of them have a win bet on the horse?

He is riding very strangely, and he is king of the herders.

[thaskalos]

There will be no punishment forthcoming in this case.

It will be viewed as a simple "mistake"...and, as we all know by now, only the horseplayers pay for their mistakes in this game.

[Mr G]

Appears to me he had a simple brain fart.

[Stillriledup]

Its pretty easy to go dead for the win on a horse if all you have to do is tell the judges "geez, i made a mistake"

Whether it was a brain fart or done on purpose, its still the same outcome for the bettors.

When a person in society commits a crime, they're not allowed to tell the police "sorry, i just had a brain lapse". A crime is a crime and they're not too interested in excuses.

Of course, the racing industry is different, no such 'outside authority' watching over this game, everything gets handled "in house".

[Beachbabe]

So the same stewards that have let this punk HERD with impunity all these years are now expected to fine him for standing up prematurely?

:lol::lol:

What, did one of them have a win bet on the horse?


Last two days; Castellano:
11 mounts
4 wins; 2 seconds (that includes the second today in which he misjudged the finish line).

Leading rider at Gulfstream. Second leading rider at Belmont

You had a hard-on for him from before. You can't wait to criticize him. what did he do ....beat you out of a bet one day ?

[Grits]

Exactly. It is a BS excuse. There was nothing resembling a finish line.

Cj, are you implying that he intentionally lost the race?

You declare it BS. If not to lose, what else could have lead him to stand up?

This, along with "he's riding strangely", are pretty direct.

[Dahoss9698]

Last two days; Castellano:
11 mounts
4 wins; 2 seconds (that includes the second today in which he misjudged the finish line).

Leading rider at Gulfstream. Second leading rider at Belmont

You had a hard-on for him from before. You can't wait to criticize him. what did he do ....beat you out of a bet one day ?

I have been a long time Castellano supporter, way before he was one of the top riders in the game.

That said, his herding this meet has been out of control. There is no line to misjudge, so I'm not really sure how his excuse is going to fly. In this instance he deserves any and all criticism that comes his way.

[cj]

Cj, are you implying that he intentionally lost the race?

You declare it BS. If not to lose, what else could have lead him to stand up?

This, along with "he's riding strangely", are pretty direct.

"Riding strangely" means I, and others whose opinions on these things are better than mine, have seen some very obvious non-efforts this meet. That is to what I was referring. By BS I was talking about misjudging the finish line. It makes no sense given where he was and considering how many races he has ridden at the track.

As for the race reason today, I have no idea what he was doing. I can't imagine somebody would be dumb enough to lose intentionally in such an obvious manner. But, given the "punishments" dished out in cases like this, I wouldn't say it would shock me. He'll probably miss 5 days on the inner. What else can we expect from a group of stewards where one doesn't know when to push the stop wagering button?

[cj]

Last two days; Castellano:
11 mounts
4 wins; 2 seconds (that includes the second today in which he misjudged the finish line).

Leading rider at Gulfstream. Second leading rider at Belmont

You had a hard-on for him from before. You can't wait to criticize him. what did he do ....beat you out of a bet one day ?

None of this matters for the 5th race today.

[nijinski]

If he gets too complacent , he may earn the nickname of Sleepy the 2nd.

Maybe a fine and two week suspension will wake him up.

There is a rule for this and it was broken .

[Mr G]

In watching the video replay both here and on my NYRA Rewards account it appears to me that after a split second of standing up he realizes his mistake and then gets right back down to finish the race.

If he broke a rule by doing so then by all means fine him or punish him but I don't see any intent on his part so in my opinion only I stick to him simply having a brain fart.

[DeltaLover]

http://www.thoroughbrednews.com.au/International/default.aspx?id=59999

Sha Tin handle / day =US$128 million

http://businessofracing.blogspot.com/2011/12/hong-kong-1-where-even-owners-make.html

http://www.nyra.com/belmont/stories/Apr262012.shtml

AQU: $514 / 73 = $7M / day

[nijinski]

In watching the video replay both here and on my NYRA Rewards account it appears to me that after a split second of standing up he realizes his mistake and then gets right back down to finish the race.

If he broke a rule by doing so then by all means fine him or punish him but I don't see any intent on his part so in my opinion only I stick to him simply having a brain fart.
I agree with you on the intent part . I think Javier has more integrity than that . Looks like it was a misjudge . Maybe a wake up call .

[Dahoss9698]

When do the bettors get to make a mistake and have it be okay?

[Some_One]

Europe has an absolute liability rule, screw up a win, 21 days vacation, a place 14 days, and a show 7 days. No story or excuse should be allowed.

[cj]

Europe has an absolute liability rule, screw up a win, 21 days vacation, a place 14 days, and a show 7 days. No story or excuse should be allowed.
That seems fair if it escalates for subsequent offenses.

[sammy the sage]

I seem to recall...those who comment about poor rides by Jocks ARE WHINERS :lol:

[Dahoss9698]

I seem to recall...those who comment about poor rides by Jocks ARE WHINERS :lol:

Don't you think (don't hurt yourself doing it) there is a big difference between a bad ride and a jock standing up early?

[nijinski]

When Kent misjudged the finish line with Kotashaan in Japan . It was the
second time he did so that day. They were pretty forgiving . I think they fined him . But that was an unfamiliar track .

These things happen . Very unfortunate for the connections as well as the betting public .Alot of money lost all around . It shouldn't happen but no
one is perfect.

I believe the connections of Gallant Man stuck by Shoemaker . His suspension knocked him out of the Preakness and they scratched the horse .This is the account I've read about the ordeal . Now that's huge for a Derby screw up . But it was a historic error that followed Willie throughout
his great career.

[sammy the sage]

of course...I think this...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95078

Obviously it's more of problem than everybody wants to admit....I certainly shouldn't have singled out one track...oh well...ce le vie :faint:

[nijinski]

When do the bettors get to make a mistake and have it be okay?

It's unfortunate for the bettors. No doubt . But we get into a gamble knowing
there are risks.
Guess thats why some of our family members , the veteran horseplayers always said.....There is never a sure thing in horseracing. I used to hear that all the time.

[Dahoss9698]

of course...I think this...

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95078

Obviously it's more of problem than everybody wants to admit....I certainly shouldn't have singled out one track...oh well...ce le vie :faint:

Look, I'm trying real hard not to be nasty, but the situations are nothing alike.

I watched the races you were talking about and saw nothing. This instance actually happened.

[Dahoss9698]

It's unfortunate for the bettors. No doubt . But we get into a gamble knowing
there are risks.
Guess thats why some of our family members , the veteran horseplayers always said.....There is never a sure thing in horseracing. I used to hear that all the time.

You're not really helping out here.

The bettors here weren't impacted luckily. But this kind of thing cannot happen without punishments and not "slap on the wrist take a week off in December" kind of punishment.

It's an integrity issue.

[sammy the sage]

Look, I'm trying real hard not to be nasty, but the situations are nothing alike.

I watched the races you were talking about and saw nothing. This instance actually happened.

What-ever...your gospel

[nijinski]

You're not really helping out here.

The bettors here weren't impacted luckily. But this kind of thing cannot happen without punishments and not "slap on the wrist take a week off in December" kind of punishment.

It's an integrity issue.

I do agree with you as I said before , a penalty for a rule broken is in order.
The Shoe was out of the Preakness . that was due punishment , I would think.
I don't know what's going to happen here.

I'm just pointing out the human side of error .

[Dahoss9698]

I do agree with you as I said before , a penalty for a rule broken is in order.

I'm just pointing out the human side of error .

Thanks for pointing it out. I was under the assumption humans don't make mistakes.

[nijinski]

Thanks for pointing it out. I was under the assumption humans don't make mistakes.

Glad I could help , I'm sure you feel better already .

[Beachbabe]

You guys talk about what he did & how it affected the bettors....and for that he should get some severe punishment. What's the difference between what Javier did today and what happens almost every day at the track. Rides where jocks "misjudge" that a hole is going to open up on the rail & it doesn't & the horse checks , when a path a bit wider may have resulted in a win. How about when a rider takes the overland route, not wanting to get boxed along the rail, and instead the horses in front of him bear out carrying him out to the middle of the track, while the inside paths open up wide enough to drive a truck through.

How about a rider who drops his whip in mid-stretch which may have cost his mount the win.

They are "misjudgements" by the riders; they were not intentionally trying to lose; and their actions cause the bettors to suffer.

Now, I know Castellano's mistake was more blatant & I'm not excusing it but a guy who's been among the leading riders in the country for some time now, whose judgements are normally pretty impressive....should be judged accordingly.

And , what the HELL is "herding" that he's been so guilty of, according to some on here ?

[Grits]

And , what the HELL is "herding" that he's been so guilty of, according to some on here?

Fine question. Maybe DH or Cj would help us out, Beach. I don't know about you, but I don't frequent other messageboards where the more knowing congregate, I only show up here.

I've not ever seen discussion on herding as it pertains to thoroughbreds and their races. Not in any book I've ever read and I've got a book case full of them. Not anything beyond statement of a horse's natural instinct, which doesn't address racing.

[Stillriledup]

You guys talk about what he did & how it affected the bettors....and for that he should get some severe punishment. What's the difference between what Javier did today and what happens almost every day at the track. Rides where jocks "misjudge" that a hole is going to open up on the rail & it doesn't & the horse checks , when a path a bit wider may have resulted in a win. How about when a rider takes the overland route, not wanting to get boxed along the rail, and instead the horses in front of him bear out carrying him out to the middle of the track, while the inside paths open up wide enough to drive a truck through.

How about a rider who drops his whip in mid-stretch which may have cost his mount the win.

They are "misjudgements" by the riders; they were not intentionally trying to lose; and their actions cause the bettors to suffer.

Now, I know Castellano's mistake was more blatant & I'm not excusing it but a guy who's been among the leading riders in the country for some time now, whose judgements are normally pretty impressive....should be judged accordingly.

And , what the HELL is "herding" that he's been so guilty of, according to some on here ?

This is a fair argument, human error is a large part of race riding no doubt.

I would add however that in the bigger picture, there arent a ton of investigations that tie in 'unusual' betting patterns to the way some jocks ride. Racing jurisdictions normally look the other way and just accept the jock at his or her word that it was a brain cramp.

So, should we just lump this situation in with all the others because racing jurisdictions just normally look the other way?

Race betting is the hardest game on earth, and every tiny percentage point extra you can get onto your ROI could be the difference between eating filet mignon or sleeping in the street.

Customers are betting HUGE sums on these riders to NOT make mistakes like this. Sometimes you go for a hole and that closes and you dont get thru and that's a perfect example of bad racing luck that has nothing to do with the jock trying to not win, but when you are out in the clear and all you have to do is just ride the horse all the way to the end, and you have thousands of lifetime rides, there's no reason to not ride all the way to the end of the race, its not like we're asking him to land a 2.5 billion dollar spaceship on Mars.

[therussmeister]

When do the bettors get to make a mistake and have it be okay?
It happens to me a couple times a year, and I bet it happens to most handicappers who bet frequently. Not all mistakes are fatal.

[Stillriledup]

It happens to me a couple times a year, and I bet it happens to most handicappers who bet frequently. Not all mistakes are fatal.

But the difference is that your mistake only hurts you, it doesnt hurt everyone.

[thaskalos]

But the difference is that your mistake only hurts you, it doesnt hurt everyone.

The difference is that some mistakes are understandable...given the nature of this game.

Mistakes like this one by Castellano are not.

Whether or not they affect the final placings of the horses is not the issue.

This type of nonsense undermines what little integrity the game has left...and it should not be tolerated.

The game doesn't need more controversy...

[duncan04]

Does the title of this thread really say months?? Really?? If he did get suspended it would be a few days. Talk about overkill!!!

[Stillriledup]

The difference is that some mistakes are understandable...given the nature of this game.

Mistakes like this one by Castellano are not.

Whether or not they affect the final placings of the horses is not the issue.

This type of nonsense undermines what little integrity the game has left...and it should not be tolerated.

The game doesn't need more controversy...

I'm with you 100%. An elite jock like this should never be making this mistake. If he gets a slap on the wrist, the stews are saying its not that big of a deal. To bettors, its not only a big deal, its everything. Bettors are putting blood, sweat and tears into this game, they dont need stuff like this to be going on, no excuse.

[Pace Cap'n]

And , what the HELL is "herding" that he's been so guilty of, according to some on here ?

Herding is the subtle (usually) art of making your competitor(s) take a path they would rather not.

Let's say you are riding a horse going around the final turn and have a couple of horses just to the outside. You either guide or allow your horse drift out just a little so those outside horses have to go just a bit further out. You're not trying to drive them into the outer rail, just taking them out of their comfort zone while making their task a tad more difficult.

If your competition is to the inside, you would do the same in reverse.

Herding can occur at any point on the track, not just turns.

[Grits]

Thank you, Pace Cap'n.

[PICSIX]

Herding is the subtle (usually) art of making your competitor(s) take a path they would rather not.

Let's say you are riding a horse going around the final turn and have a couple of horses just to the outside. You either guide or allow your horse drift out just a little so those outside horses have to go just a bit further out. You're not trying to drive them into the outer rail, just taking them out of their comfort zone while making their task a tad more difficult.

If your competition is to the inside, you would do the same in reverse.

Herding can occur at any point on the track, not just turns.

So "herding" is legal, aggressive race riding :confused:

[Beachbabe]

So "herding" is legal, aggressive race riding :confused:


That's what it sounds like to me. So now...that's a BAD thing ? On one hand he's being criticized for not giving an all-out effort; now he's being criticized for not giving other riders enough room.
When Calvin Borel was riding the rail at Churchill to win races, everyone said "Wait till he gets to New York & see if those riders leave the rail open for Calvin."

Advice to Castellano:
Please don't misjudge the finish line; it looks like you don't want to win. And please keep your horse on a path that allows other horses to get around you; it looks like you don't want to lose.

[Dahoss9698]

Kind of hard to have a discussion on race riding with people who have no idea what herding is....but whatever.

If you'd like to see a great example of herding, watch the head on during the stretch run for race 10 on August 22nd at Saratoga. The winner comes out many paths, yet the stewards seem to think it's okay. When someone gets seriously injured, maybe they will change their mind.

[Grits]

Kind of hard to have a discussion on race riding with people who have no idea what herding is....but whatever.

Well its a fact, one won't learn to discuss it will they, if you're going to knock them in the dirt for asking. Your point could just as easily have been made by providing the link to the head on. It wouldn't have been difficult, and it would've been more encouraging.

[Dahoss9698]

Well its a fact, one won't learn to discuss it will they, if you're going to knock them in the dirt for asking. Your point could just as easily have been made by providing the link to the head on. It wouldn't have been difficult, and it would've been more encouraging.

Kind of a rich response considering this was how you asked about herding, don't you think?

Fine question. Maybe DH or Cj would help us out, Beach. I don't know about you, but I don't frequent other messageboards where the more knowing congregate, I only show up here.

[Beachbabe]

Well its a fact, one won't learn to discuss it will they, if you're going to knock them in the dirt for asking. Your point could just as easily have been made by providing the link to the head on. It wouldn't have been difficult, and it would've been more encouraging.


Grits, it's apparent that many of us "great unwashed" know nothing about racing, or , in this case, riding.

To Dahoss:
I'm not looking at any replay. How many times have you seen horse fanned wide on the turn or through the stretch when another horse drifts out. Now that horse may have drifted out because he wanted to; because he's hurting somewhere; because he shied from the whip; WHATEVER.
And some riders let their horse drift out a bit to YES, intimidate another horse. That's called race riding & it's been going on for decades.
That doesn't mean you cut off or bump another horse, but if the stewards see nothing wrong in that example then maybe they took it for what it was.

[Grits]

Kind of a rich response considering this was how you asked about herding, don't you think?

No, I don't think because I know there are other messageboards that are PRIVATE, honey. For, let's say, the more enlightened.

EOC.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...If you'd like to see a great example of herding, watch the head on during the stretch run for race 10 on August 22nd at Saratoga. The winner comes out many paths, yet the stewards seem to think it's okay. When someone gets seriously injured, maybe they will change their mind.

Did you have to remind me of that race?

[Dahoss9698]

Grits, it's apparent that many of us "great unwashed" know nothing about racing, or , in this case, riding.

To Dahoss:
I'm not looking at any replay. How many times have you seen horse fanned wide on the turn or through the stretch when another horse drifts out. Now that horse may have drifted out because he wanted to; because he's hurting somewhere; because he shied from the whip; WHATEVER.
And some riders let their horse drift out a bit to YES, intimidate another horse. That's called race riding & it's been going on for decades.
That doesn't mean you cut off or bump another horse, but if the stewards see nothing wrong in that example then maybe they took it for what it was.

Good for you. You ask what it is, I provide an example and you won't watch it.

Ignorance is bliss.

[Grits]

Be careful, Beach. You're reading too smart, too sensible, too many years watching the game. Hell, you even read like you know absolutely what you're talking about. Don't let 'em know, it ain't necessary. Look where it gets us. :rolleyes:

Grits, it's apparent that many of us "great unwashed" know nothing about racing, or , in this case, riding.

To Dahoss:
I'm not looking at any replay. How many times have you seen horse fanned wide on the turn or through the stretch when another horse drifts out. Now that horse may have drifted out because he wanted to; because he's hurting somewhere; because he shied from the whip; WHATEVER.
And some riders let their horse drift out a bit to YES, intimidate another horse. That's called race riding & it's been going on for decades.
That doesn't mean you cut off or bump another horse, but if the stewards see nothing wrong in that example then maybe they took it for what it was.

[sammy the sage]

I define intelligence not by the number of arguments a person has won, but the number of times one has said, "This nonsense is not worth my time." --Dodinsky

[Dahoss9698]

No, I don't think because I know there are other messageboards that are PRIVATE, honey. For, let's say, the more enlightened.

EOC.

I hope you get the help you need, honey. And let's not kid ourselves, you need a lot.

GFY

[Beachbabe]

Good for you. You ask what it is, I provide an example and you won't watch it.

Ignorance is bliss.

My last response in my no-win situation:
The race in question showed Rosie drifting out quite wide under left-handed stick. According to the chart she switched whips to correct the situation "to no avail".
OK, so that was herding, huh? What does this have to do with Castellano, who by all accounts is the "chief herder"? No examples of him "herding" ?

Months, shmonths !!
Why don't we just hang Javier from the infield tote board.

Yep, I'm ignorant & I'm happy.

[lamboguy]

i would say 18 months sounds very appropriate under the circumstances

[Grits]

I hope you get the help you need, honey. And let's not kid ourselves, you need a lot.

GFY

No, I've never f***ed myself, and I don't intend to start.

You can sit here and pick horses until the cows come home; but in life, you are, and always will be, a loser. Something I've never said to anyone until now.

[Dahoss9698]

My last response in my no-win situation:
The race in question showed Rosie drifting out quite wide under left-handed stick. According to the chart she switched whips to correct the situation "to no avail".
OK, so that was herding, huh? What does this have to do with Castellano, who by all accounts is the "chief herder"? No examples of him "herding" ?

Months, shmonths !!
Why don't we just hang Javier from the infield tote board.

Yep, I'm ignorant & I'm happy.

Yes, that is herding. You're welcome.

I have a solution to all of this though. Instead of a punishment, let's reward him. Happy now?

[Dahoss9698]

No, I've never f***ed myself, and I don't intend to start.

You can sit here and pick horses until the cows come home; but in life, you are, and always will be, a loser. Something I've never said to anyone until now.

I thought it was EOC?

You already know what you are, so you don't need me to tell you. Have a nice day, honey!

[Grits]

I thought it was EOC?

You already know what you are, so you don't need me to tell you. Have a nice day, honey!

For everyone here, why don't you tell me what I am? Or do you not have the guts, even anonymously.

You come unglued like a whining toddler when someone calls you out on your hatefulness, on your poor way of communicating with others.

You can't string together 48 hours of pleasant exchange with others to save your soul. And THAT, sir, is saying something.

[Dahoss9698]

For everyone here, why don't you tell me what I am? Or do you not have the guts, even anonymously.

You come unglued like a whining toddler when someone calls you out on your hatefulness, on your poor way of communicating with others.

You can't string together 48 hours of pleasant exchange with others to save your soul. And THAT, sir, is saying something.

You go girl!

[cj]

So "herding" is legal, aggressive race riding :confused:

No, herding is not legal, but it is rarely ever called.