41 Consecutive Winning Hands

[bigmack]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/GoldenNuggetsuingcardmakerafterunshuffledcardspayo ffbigforgamblers-NJcom.png

"The Golden Nugget appealed to gamblers to come in and play games licensed and sanctioned by the state of New Jersey," he said. "My clients did exactly that, and then were denied their winnings. There is absolutely no law in New Jersey that would permit the Golden Nugget to declare the game illegal because it failed to provide shuffled cards."

But in a lawsuit filed against the 14 gamblers in July, that is exactly what the casino seeks, citing state gambling regulations requiring all casino games to offer fair odds — to both sides. The casino's lawsuit asserts the gamblers and the casino both began the game believing it was legal and proper — until the players kept winning over and over again.

The Golden Nugget said it flooded the area with floor persons, managers, supervisors, surveillance and security officers, believing they were watching "a sophisticated swindling and cheating scheme" in progress.
http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/08/golden_nugget_suing_card_manuf.html

[lamboguy]

my guess is the casino is going to win that case. this is the first time that i have ever seen this in mini-baccarat, but i did see the exact same thing 30 years ago at the Dunes Hotel in Las Vegas. the difference was that the player's won a much smaller amount of money, under $50,000. the reason why i know about it is i was offered $5000 to sit down and play out a shoe of baccarat for a wiseguy out there, and i wouldn't do it if he gave me $50,000. in those days the hotel's weren't owned by corporations.

[bigmack]

I'm trying to figure which incident was more moronic.

A pile of security thugs around this table and letting it go 41 hands without figuring it out or 25 people burning their feet at a Tony Robbins charcoal walk. Seems in either case the jig could have been up after a handful.

---------------

Pre-shuffled decks?? Who's to say they aren't shuffled to benefit the house?

[TJDave]

As a 'wrong way' player I once 7'nd out 16 consecutive times, then 6, then 12. Same table, same night. Table started out packed but me and a Chinese guy cleared it out in less than 5 minutes.

[lamboguy]

I'm trying to figure which incident was more moronic.

A pile of security thugs around this table and letting it go 41 hands without figuring it out or 25 people burning their feet at a Tony Robbins charcoal walk. Seems in either case the jig could have been up after a handful.

---------------

Pre-shuffled decks?? Who's to say they aren't shuffled to benefit the house?in in baccarat you can bet either way, banker or player or tie. a rigged deck will never benefit the house in that game.

[Dave Schwartz]

The amazing thing to me is that the casino wants to hold the gamblers responsible for a mistake that clearly does not belong to them.

Many times I have seen casinos claim "no action" because something was broken. I have no problem with that. That is, you place a wager and a machine does not (say) spit out a ticket in a timely manner. I get it. You had no action because you had no chance of winning or losing.

However, what we are seeing here is the casino ALLOWED "action" to continue. What do YOU suppose would have been the end result if the casino had actually won? Do you see them scrambling around to give all the losers their money back? I'd say that is 99/1 against.

And on that topic, what if there were SOME people who lost money early in that shoe and then left? Did the casino post a notice saying, "Please file a notice of your losses and we will reimburse you?" (If they did, I will be knocked over with a feather.)


I realize that I have been gone from the Nevada gaming business for 23 years. Maybe things have changed that much. (Yes, I realize this was in NJ but gaming is gaming. And maybe this couldn't happen in Nevada. I admit to not knowing.)


If the Nugget wins this lawsuit, I hope that the biggest players on the planet receive the message loud and clear: casinos do not like to lose and they will do anything they can to avoid it. If you beat them big, they just might take you to court to have your victory over-turned.

This should be just plain silly but it is actually very serious.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
Pre-shuffled decks?? Who's to say they aren't shuffled to benefit the house?

Who's to say they are anything with a qualifier like "pre-shuffled"? Hell, a pre-owned car has been owned and a pre-heated oven is heated and a pre-existing condition is a condition that exists, while a pre-cancerous mole isn't cancerous and the pre-game show occurs before the game.

Anything that begins with "pre-" should be assumed to have no real meaning.

[bigmack]

This should be just plain silly but it is actually very serious.
D - Arguably, security was all over this like a pit bull on a poodle. After 10 hands they sat back and said "Let's give it another 31 hands and see what happens." :D

[Dave Schwartz]

Pre-shuffled decks?? Who's to say they aren't shuffled to benefit the house?

That is a really good point. Even though you can bet either side, imagine that decks could be "pre-checked" to make sure that the extreme streaks are taken out; so that a regression to the mean is constantly being preserved in the relatively short term.

I recall a casino executive in the early 1980's tell me how a certain well-known casino had hired a consulting firm to determine the best (for the house) method of shuffling the cards at multi-deck blackjack. The determination was that a very loose shuffle benefited the house and the dealers were given classes on how to clump the cards together during the shuffle.

So much for "random chance."

[TexasDolly]

As a 'wrong way' player I once 7'nd out 16 consecutive times, then 6, then 12. Same table, same night. Table started out packed but me and a Chinese guy cleared it out in less than 5 minutes.

Do you mean the dice 7'nd out 16 times straight since the dice usually move to next shooter. I know there are occasions when the dice are passed back to the last shooter but it seems strange at a full table to pass them back that many times to a shooter who is stone cold.
While we are on the subject what is largest number of consecutive passes(NO Craps) you have seen or been told about by a reliable source ?

Thank you,
TD

[johnhannibalsmith]

I think I read in another article yesterday that the players are oriental (yes, yes, nomenclature) and are alleging racial bias. That and one guy got dragged to the hole after being accosted at his room and roughed him up before the lengthy detainment/interrogation. Sounds like a hate crime... probably end up with a sweet parlay at the end of this... :D

[TJDave]

Do you mean the dice 7'nd out 16 times straight since the dice usually move to next shooter. I know there are occasions when the dice are passed back to the last shooter but it seems strange at a full table to pass them back that many times to a shooter who is stone cold.

Sorry, I got and then kept the dice probably six points in. Just me and the other guy after that. I LOVE rolling from the dark side, consequently I play at mostly empty tables.


While we are on the subject what is largest number of consecutive passes(NO Craps) you have seen or been told about by a reliable source ?


Don't know for sure. I'd expect it wouldn't be much more than 15. I heard 21 once but that's probably legend.

[TexasDolly]

Sorry, I got and then kept the dice probably six points in. Just me and the other guy after that. I LOVE rolling from the dark side, consequently I play at mostly empty tables.



Don't know for sure. I'd expect it wouldn't be much more than 15. I heard 21 once but that's probably legend.

I imagine you are pretty close with 15. I have ask countless old time craps dealers and long time players as well as played for many,many years ,and the most I have seen is 12 and the most the old/long timers felt confident in saying was 14. It raises an interesting question about the randomness of the game since streaks of that length are commonplace in a computer simulation.
While baccarat has been known to produce 15-25 consecutive winners . A close friend of mine said that he was involved in baccarat hand that had 23 bank wins in a row (no ties).

Your 16 misses would fall right in line with those numbers
The largest unbalance of losses I have seen was 23 l's
and 2 w's ,but I do not remember where the breaks came. We were playing the don't so there were ample runs to make a good score.

Interesting game,

TD

[TJDave]

It raises an interesting question about the randomness of the game since streaks of that length are commonplace in a computer simulation.


I wouldn't see how a computer simulation could allow for the human element when throwing dice. If every throw was executed the same, then sure.

[Dave Schwartz]

I heard stories of 28 passes at the craps table but that included some crap outs; just no 7-outs.

The most amazing thing I ever saw was 7 consecutive 11s. I was on the stick (coincidently at the Golden Nugget in 1976). The funny thing was that the dealers (along with everyone else) were on the last 5 in a big way. Almost got me fired.

That was a huge hand, too. Lasted about 2-3 hours. It was a quarter minimum to $5,000 limit, with triple odds as I recall. (They did not have huge action that year at the Nugget, as Steve Wynn had just taken over a few months before.)

Anyway, when the game started this obnoxious (and stiff) cab driver came up to bet $1 on the line (which was the true minimum- you could bet $0.25 units). We couldn't stand this guy. Besides, we were enjoying an 11am dead game and really did not want to be disturbed for a jerk like him.

Pretty soon there was a 2nd player, then a 3rd. Between them they were not betting $6. One of them (not the cab driver) catches a hand. The dice roll and roll. About 30 minutes into the hand, a big player, Jimmy San Salvador, comes up to the table and calls a bet: "2,200 inside, $500 on the point and $1,500 odds." I was dealing and I heard the floorman behind me say, "Oh crap." (No pun.)

The dice began to roll... Six, eight, six, eight. Jimmy says, "Press, press, press," the only thing he knew how to say. When the dice finally sevened-out a couple of hours later, the quarter players were all betting $25 units, the $1 players had moved to $100 units, and Jimmy had like $120,000 in the rail.

Even the cab driver had like $6k. Oh, and as usual, the cab driver stiffed us.

The only thing that saved the joint at all was that the game moved very slowly because of all the payoffs on every roll. When I came in for my second turn at the stick, we (the dealers) were on all the hardways for like $40 each, and had money on C & E on every come out.

I kept calling hardways and it got me in trouble with management. "Six hard... and I would start: Pay this man $180, pay this man $450, pay this guy... and finally, and the dealers will take $400 and down."

At the Nugget then the dealers were not allowed to take black checks ($100s) as tokes, so they would pass me $400 in $25 checks - 16 of them. We wore these red-checkered, western shirts, with snaps on the front pockets. After both of the front shirt pockets were filled, then they filled my back pocket.

So, here I am, "Hard six... dealers take $400 and down." Next roll: "Hard eight... dealers take $400 and down." Roll after roll, almost every one a hard way.

About the 5th or 6th hard way, suddenly this whole thing struck me as funny: "Hard 8... chuckle, chuckle..." Pay, pay, pay... "Hard 10... chuckle, chuckle."

They just kept rolling. Suddenly, I am laughing so hard I am crying. The casino manager - whose name escapes me right now, leans in on the game and says, "Do you see something funny here?"

I said, "No sir. Sorry. I just can't help it. :lol: :lol: :lol: "

I was sure I was going to be fired but wasn't. Never understood that.

Okay, maybe you had to be there, but it was just a phenomenal hand.

BTW, that was a "split joint" back then. That is, everyone pooled their tips. As I recall we had 36 BJ games, 2 roulette wheels, 7 crap tables and a big-6: about 80 dealers on the shift. Usual tokes were about $34, and that day they went just under $300 each.

LOL - My girlfriend called in sick.

[cj's dad]

[QUOTE=Dave Schwartz

casinos do not like to lose and they will do anything they can to avoid it.

[/QUOTE]

I am not a casino player but how is that in the game of Blackjack, "Card Counters" are barred ?

My question is this, why are players penalized for being astute ?

[TexasDolly]

I wouldn't see how a computer simulation could allow for the human element when throwing dice. If every throw was executed the same, then sure.

Yeah Tj that was the interesting point that throwing the dice was not near as random as the random number generator in a computer.
The game at the table has long been considered random but you have to wonder
when it doesn't produce the streaks that
are predicted by random numbers, if it really is or not.
TD

[Dave Schwartz]

I am not a casino player but how is that in the game of Blackjack, "Card Counters" are barred ?

My question is this, why are players penalized for being astute ?

I think that question was aimed at me so I will give it a try.

Imagine you own an all-you-can-eat restaurant. There is a guy who comes in every day who weighs in at a svelte 870 pounds. I shows up at 11am and eats until 2pm for his $9.95, then returns at chows down from 5pm to 9pm. He does this 7 days a week.

I am thinking that you, as owner, would get a little tired of this guy eating all the profits.

Then, one day, he comes in with his entire family. As the "Large" family sits down (perhaps breaking a chair or two), you have just had enough.

I would say that the owner of such a restaurant would feel he had the right to bar the "bad deals" from eating. I am not saying he has the legal right (he probably does), nor am I saying he has the moral right (he probably doesn't).

The casino owner would logically think that he is not in business so that a bunch of card counters can support their families on his profit.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Or in my words to potential casino-goers: "The house prefers to run a game of chance, not a game of skill."

[PhantomOnTour]

I'm with BigMack...how you gonna let this go past 10 times or so?
Much less 41.
C'mon man

[TJDave]

I would say that the owner of such a restaurant would feel he had the right to bar the "bad deals" from eating. I am not saying he has the legal right (he probably does), nor am I saying he has the moral right (he probably doesn't).


That's one way. Another would be to absorb the "bad deals" by cost averaging and/or manipulating profit margins. I guess if there were more successful counters the casinos would choose the second option.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Technically, those cards are sorted, just all the same way. I'm surprised they are allowed to use pre-shuffled cards, and not have to prove all 52 cards are in the deck to the players.

Does AC require each game to be played with a separate set of cards? Hard to image them using 41 decks of cards all in the same order.

Totally agree the grievence should be between the casino and the card vendor, not against the patrons. Hey, if their own dealers and pit bosses and secrity watch while the same hands are dealt 41 times in a row, it is their fault, although I sense that after maybe 20 or so they were not planning on letting the players keep their winnings. Reading that one person was taken from their room later for interrogation, the casino had obviously scoped all the players out.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Regarding Black Jack Card Counters, the casions definitely don't want to consistently lose money. The (somewhat bull shit) excuse I used to read is that people who play with counting stratgeies are making decisions on taking/passing cards that affect the overall game play (hell, all hit, stays decisions afect play, smart, neutral, or dumb.)

The other theory I have is the problems of team play and the Big Player, where small players play the hands and count the cards, then leave a signal when the deck is to a signiciant advantage, and the big player joins the table and bets heavy, and wins the money for the team.

Franly, I'm surprised most casinos still offer the game played with the rules that could allow them to be beaten - although they have no reservations about banning anyone suspected of counting from the blackjack table and/or their casino. I had a friend, rather distinguished looking, bald head but handsome with a fantastic beard, and after just 5 hands they called him a counter and ordered him to leave. Must have looked like somebody in their 'book' of counters/cheats/etc. that the casions share.

[Striker]

I am not a casino player but how is that in the game of Blackjack, "Card Counters" are barred ?

My question is this, why are players penalized for being astute ?
I've had some buddies who were very large sports gamblers in Vegas go on pretty big winning streaks, and the casino eventually cut them off and told them they will not accept their bets anymore. Funny that when it goes the other way they can't get your money fast enough.

[delayjf]

I recall a casino executive in the early 1980's tell me how a certain well-known casino had hired a consulting firm to determine the best (for the house) method of shuffling the cards at multi-deck blackjack. The determination was that a very loose shuffle benefited the house and the dealers were given classes on how to clump the cards together during the shuffle.

Dave,
In my vegas days, my blackjack strategy was based on what you describe above. I know the traditional card counters scoffed at playing the streaks but it worked for me.

[Dave Schwartz]

I know the traditional card counters scoffed at playing the streaks but it worked for me.

It also worked for my partner and I. He was the absolute best "location" player I ever saw. BTW, he is back in my life again and is about to start using our software. (Never played the horses before!)


Dave

[BlueShoe]

While we are on the subject what is largest number of consecutive passes(NO Craps) you have seen or been told about by a reliable source ?
25 passes in a row in May 2009 at the Borgata Hotel Atlantic City by a lady shooter playing craps for only the second time in her life. The previous record was set in 1989 by a Hawaiian guy at the California Hotel in downtown Las Vegas, 18 passes in a row. Both have been verified, most likely by viewing the surveillance tapes.
www.nextshooter.com/longestroll (http://www.nextshooter.com/longestroll)

[Saratoga_Mike]

The amazing thing to me is that the casino wants to hold the gamblers responsible for a mistake that clearly does not belong to them.

However, what we are seeing here is the casino ALLOWED "action" to continue. What do YOU suppose would have been the end result if the casino had actually won?

The casino would have discovered the error, contacted the players and refunded their money. :rolleyes:

[TexasDolly]

25 passes in a row in May 2009 at the Borgata Hotel Atlantic City by a lady shooter playing craps for only the second time in her life. The previous record was set in 1989 by a Hawaiian guy at the California Hotel in downtown Las Vegas, 18 passes in a row. Both have been verified, most likely by viewing the surveillance tapes.
www.nextshooter.com/longestroll (http://www.nextshooter.com/longestroll)

Thanks for the story and the link Blueshoe. An interesting thing about the the article is the space devoted to the length of time of the roll. Rolls can very long with a lot fewer passes based on the nature of the bets that are being made at the time.
I wish the article had stated that there were NO CRAPS thrown on any comeout roll
since a lot of people I have talked to
discuss a win streak as having ended when the dice are passed to the next shooter.Nevertheless, a fascinating story
and I am glad you provided it for us.

[delayjf]

Dave,

As I recall you were going to relay some stories about your Vegas days - did I miss somthing? Sounds like interesting reading.

[BlueShoe]

An interesting thing about the the article is the space devoted to the length of time of the roll. Rolls can very long with a lot fewer passes based on the nature of the bets that are being made at the time.
I wish the article had stated that there were NO CRAPS thrown on any comeout roll.
A few more details would have been helpful. From what was given, am assuming that no natural come out sevens or craps were thrown. Since this will occur 10 times out of 36, the fact that it did not in 25 decisions is quite remarkable. Also not given were come out natural elevens. Noteworthy was how very long time wise the hand was, over 4 hours to roll the dice 154 times. On a normal uncrowded table the dice can be tossed this many times in just one hour. During a monster hand like this the dealers surely were very, very busy, paying off large numbers of winning place and come bets after nearly every roll, thus a very long time between each toss of the dice. Also not given was if the game had to be briefly halted while the pit brought a new fill, since the players had all the checks. Have never witnessed this happy occurance, although have heard a few players that claimed that they had. Sure would have been fun to have been at that AC table that day, or at the Cal back in 89 when that monster hand was shot.

[TexasDolly]

A few more details would have been helpful. From what was given, am assuming that no natural come out sevens or craps were thrown. Since this will occur 10 times out of 36, the fact that it did not in 25 decisions is quite remarkable. Also not given were come out natural elevens. Noteworthy was how very long time wise the hand was, over 4 hours to roll the dice 154 times. On a normal uncrowded table the dice can be tossed this many times in just one hour. During a monster hand like this the dealers surely were very, very busy, paying off large numbers of winning place and come bets after nearly every roll, thus a very long time between each toss of the dice. Also not given was if the game had to be briefly halted while the pit brought a new fill, since the players had all the checks. Have never witnessed this happy occurance, although have heard a few players that claimed that they had. Sure would have been fun to have been at that AC table that day, or at the Cal back in 89 when that monster hand was shot.

I was living in LV at the time and I was playing cards,craps etc downtown quite a bit. When the roll count got up to 20 or so I started easing up and by the time it reached 40 or so I was pretty much starting over.
I didn't remember hearing about that hand even though there is something vaguely familiar about a big hand at the California that circulated .
Hands an hour long are pretty exciting so you can imagine
the excitement when they exceed that.
TD

[badcompany]

Or in my words to potential casino-goers: "The house prefers to run a game of chance, not a game of skill."

There are exceptions to this.

Several years ago, I was vacationing in the Bahamas and playing craps in a casino. There was one night when I had never seen dice so hot. Everyone who got ahold of them held them for like a half hour. After watching all our chip stacks grow over the course of the night, the casino announced that it would be closing early.

Of course, in the long run the house will get its share, but this casino wasn't too pleased with this particular "short run."

Now, had this been a poker table, the casino wouldn't have cared as they would've been raking their money off the top regardless of how hot any of the players were running.