Most underated horse all time?

[Maximillion]

Prove Out

Not old enough to have seen him race....but he gets my vote.

[Stillriledup]

Hate to do this, but its Zenyatta.

[horses4courses]

Mr. Ed

He never got half the recognition and acclaim he deserved......

tSsuohepbVk

[jk3521]

Mr. Ed

He never got half the recognition and acclaim he deserved......

tSsuohepbVk


How about Frances The Talking Mule ?

[horses4courses]

Mules?
We don't need no stinking mules..... ;)

[Valuist]

I can't really say about any horse before 1980. But how about Slew O Gold?

[cj]

I don't know about overall, but the most underrated sprinter I think by far as Gulch. He was a machine sprinting. A few other sprinters Xtra Heat and Safely Kept. They would both be considered superstars today.

I think Roses In May was a fabulous horse as well that hardly anyone mentions. He had the misfortune of running into Ghostzapper in the BC Classic before wrapping up his career winning the DWC.

[horses4courses]

Alydar has to be somewhere on the list....

[cj]

Alydar has to be somewhere on the list....

I put him on the overrated list.

[andtheyreoff]

Hate to do this, but its Zenyatta.

Dude...

Anyway, I would say the most underrated horse ever would have to be Busher. She was the 1945 Horse of the Year, beating males on three seperate occasions and winning 9 stakes race. Yet, when the top 3yo fillies are mentioned, she gets nary a word of mention. IMO, she is the best ever in that category.

Rachel Alexandra gets another mention for most underrated. She totally dominated her peers in the filly division and beat males three times as well, twice in very gutsy efforts. She, too, seems to get overlooked as one of the best ever.

Roseben is my final mention in this category. He raced at the turn of the century, winning 52 times from 111 attempts. In 1908, he ran 6F in 1:09.1- while carrying 135 lbs. He won while carrying 147 lbs on 4 seperate occasions. He won a race while giving 60 lbs to a rival, and also set a world record for 7F in 1906 by running the distance in 1:22.0, a mark that would stand until 1947.

[Dahoss9698]

How about a horse like Serena's Song?

Won 18 of 38 lifetime, including 11 grade 1's. She didn't miss a dance over the course of three racing seasons and she NEVER ducked anyone. Beat the boys a couple of times and was just a stone cold runner.

She seems to get forgotten when we talk about the great ones, but she was a special filly.

[horses4courses]

I put him on the overrated list.

Then you don't think much of our last TC winner, either.

[levinmpa]

Precisionist: As an older horse, won Grade I races from 6 furlongs to 1 1/4 miles.

[DRIVEWAY]

SHAM

[Maximillion]

I don't know about overall, but the most underrated sprinter I think by far as Gulch. He was a machine sprinting. A few other sprinters Xtra Heat and Safely Kept. They would both be considered superstars today.

I think Roses In May was a fabulous horse as well that hardly anyone mentions. He had the misfortune of running into Ghostzapper in the BC Classic before wrapping up his career winning the DWC.

When i think of the Queens of sprinting....Safely Kept and Meafara.

Also couldnt agree more about Roses In May.

Ill also throw in Unbridled..

[cj]

Then you don't think much of our last TC winner, either.

Not true, I think plenty of Affirmed. He actually did more than just win the TC. He was damn good as a 4yo. Alydar, not so much. This thread is about being underrated, right? I think most people overrate Alydar because of Affirmed. He is held in higher esteem than his record indicates he should be, in my opinion.

I'll also add in Sunday Silence. He was better than people give him credit for being.

[Alacrity]

Dr. Fager

[horses4courses]

Not true, I think plenty of Affirmed. He actually did more than just win the TC. He was damn good as a 4yo. Alydar, not so much. This thread is about being underrated, right? I think most people overrate Alydar because of Affirmed. He is held in higher esteem than his record indicates he should be, in my opinion.

True.
Maybe unlucky is more accurate than underrated.
If Affirmed isn't around, for any number of reasons, then Alydar likely wins TC.

[Maximillion]

Dr. Fager

Underated?

[affirmedny]

Not true, I think plenty of Affirmed. He actually did more than just win the TC. He was damn good as a 4yo. Alydar, not so much. This thread is about being underrated, right? I think most people overrate Alydar because of Affirmed. He is held in higher esteem than his record indicates he should be, in my opinion.

I'll also add in Sunday Silence. He was better than people give him credit for being.

I agree on Sunday Silence, it's just amazing how many people rate him behind Easy Goer ignoring the head to head results. Very similar to Affirmed and Spectacular Bid.

[burnsy]

Just talking about horses i've actually seen race. i'm going to say Invasor...he beat the snot out of Bernardini and Discreet Cat....people still talk about these horses and Invasor beat them both with something left. In the world cup he won for fun over Premium Tap and Discreet Cat was no where! His Whitney win was one of the most determined victories i've ever seen. There was no speed in the race...he chased, then held off Sun King closing like a rocket. That horse could win even out of his usual element and all over the world. He was a great one. Invasor was a gamer that did not garnish enough respect.......7-1 in the BC classic was a joke...of course some of us were laughing all the way back to the window.....

[RaceBookJoe]

How about Riva Ridge? Never much talk about him but probably would have been TC champ if not for the rain.

[cj's dad]

Housebuster and Skip Away

[ArlJim78]

Just talking about horses i've actually seen race. i'm going to say Invasor...he beat the snot out of Bernardini and Discreet Cat....people still talk about these horses and Invasor beat them both with something left. In the world cup he won for fun over Premium Tap and Discreet Cat was no where! His Whitney win was one of the most determined victories i've ever seen. There was no speed in the race...he chased, then held off Sun King closing like a rocket. That horse could win even out of his usual element and all over the world. He was a great one. Invasor was a gamer that did not garnish enough respect.......7-1 in the BC classic was a joke...of course some of us were laughing all the way back to the window.....
He is my favorite horse and I consider him the best I have seen. I believe we never got to see what he was truly capable of due to his rather short career.
He did things with ease that were quite remarkable, like the Whitney, the BCC, and what about the Donn? He had that brutal rail ride, got shut off and shuffled back, then in the space of one furlong he passed the entire field with enough time to shut it down again before the wire.
I do think he is underrated, but I'm not sure that he is the alltime most underrated horse. There have been some very good names mentioned below from racings heyday.

[1st time lasix]

Ruffian

[rastajenk]

Seriously? :eek:

[burnsy]

He is my favorite horse and I consider him the best I have seen. I believe we never got to see what he was truly capable of due to his rather short career.
He did things with ease that were quite remarkable, like the Whitney, the BCC, and what about the Donn? He had that brutal rail ride, got shut off and shuffled back, then in the space of one furlong he passed the entire field with enough time to shut it down again before the wire.
I do think he is underrated, but I'm not sure that he is the alltime most underrated horse. There have been some very good names mentioned below from racings heyday.
You are right. there were so many good horses, that in the hey day many got overlooked. But in recent history, Invasor was very under rated. I even forgot about the race you just mentioned. it was another barn burner he ran...that horse just refused to lose....i love that in a race horse. He did not get the "props" others get though....thats for sure. Most of these others people mention....were already household names to horse fans.

[andtheyreoff]

Two more nominations:

-Discreet Cat. It's too bad he was bought by Godolphin after his stunning debut and raced sparingly thereafter, else he could've done incredible things.

-A.P. Indy. I believe that, had he not been injured before the Kentucky Derby and scratched, he would've won the Triple Crown easily, considering both his ability and the terrible 1992 3yo crop.

[elhelmete]

If we were talking unheralded, I'd say Ta Wee

[Valuist]

I'll add another one: Greinton. I know he won Grade 1s on dirt, and I believe he did on grass also. No question he was the best horse in the paceless Million won by Teleprompter.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Xtra Heat ...

Glad to see her included - definitely in my list.

One from around the same time that at the time I thought was overrated, and rooted against, but historically seems to have been totally forgotten amidst those that he routinely faced over several years - Behrens.

Really, was a damn good three-year-old, winning his first three career starts despite ankle surgery (I believe), then just missed the Travers to Deputy Commander and beat Awesome Again. Had a brief and lousy four-year-old season, and then came back to run damn near 20 more times at ages five and six and was one-two-three in most of the biggest GI and GII races almost every time.

When "better" horses ran past him in the lane, he'd usually find a way to make those horses lay down with all they had. I'd rate some of his losses as his most impressive demonstrations of heart ('97 Travers - Deputy Commander, '99 Whitney - Victory Gallop, '00 Woodward -Lemon Drop Kid).

7JK2K8h-qd4

NvTE0idjUSw

GLzUbljmgKA

He was about as honest and game a campaigner as you could want in a time when there were a few in the same mold that overshadowed him then and in these types of contexts, still do today.

[classhandicapper]

In recent years I'd have to go with Roses in May

[GaryG]

Round Table
Ack Ack
Waya

[PaceAdvantage]

Just talking about horses i've actually seen race. i'm going to say Invasor...he beat the snot out of Bernardini and Discreet Cat....people still talk about these horses and Invasor beat them both with something left. In the world cup he won for fun over Premium Tap and Discreet Cat was no where! His Whitney win was one of the most determined victories i've ever seen. There was no speed in the race...he chased, then held off Sun King closing like a rocket. That horse could win even out of his usual element and all over the world. He was a great one. Invasor was a gamer that did not garnish enough respect.......7-1 in the BC classic was a joke...of course some of us were laughing all the way back to the window.....Not only that, he was a biter! I was at his stall shortly after he was announced retired and saw his teeth work firsthand...luckily, it wasn't me he took a swipe at! :lol:

The bruise that sucker left behind was nasty!

[castaway01]

Grinders like Skip Away will always be underrated compared to those who are brilliantly fast and blow you off the track (in recent years, let's say Ghostzapper), but they'd sure be nice to have in your barn.

I'd add Silver Charm to the list. He wasn't explosively fast, but he would fight it out to the wire every time. I really liked watching him run.

[PaceAdvantage]

I want to say Holy Bull, even though at the time he was running, he was roundly praised by most except those who wrongly thought he couldn't get 10 furlongs.

As time has gone on, he seems to be mentioned less and less, especially since the shadow of Cigar arrived right at the end of his injury-shortened career.

I maintain Holy Bull is the best horse I have ever seen in person, or on TV since I started following the game around 1987, but I know many others will disagree with that.

Sunday Silence comes in a close second, and agree with the other poster that he is also underrated.

No other horse has given me the feeling HB gave me (although I did once foolishly state on here that Big Brown was getting close), and I am starting to doubt if any other horse ever will...

[pktruckdriver]

Seattle Slew, a Triple Crown Winner

http://www.seattleslew.com/


Check it out great site and awesome reading and history for anyone who is a real historian of horse racing. Enjoy the reading.


Patrick

[PaceAdvantage]

Seattle Slew, a Triple Crown Winner

http://www.seattleslew.com/


Check it out great site and awesome reading and history for anyone who is a real historian of horse racing. Enjoy the reading.


PatrickYou think Seattle Slew is one of the most underrated of all time? No way...

[castaway01]

I want to say Holy Bull, even though at the time he was running, he was roundly praised by most except those who wrongly thought he couldn't get 10 furlongs.

As time has gone on, he seems to be mentioned less and less, especially since the shadow of Cigar arrived right at the end of his injury-shortened career.

I maintain Holy Bull is the best horse I have ever seen in person, or on TV since I started following the game around 1987, but I know many others will disagree with that.

Sunday Silence comes in a close second, and agree with the other poster that he is also underrated.

No other horse has given me the feeling HB gave me (although I did once foolishly state on here that Big Brown was getting close), and I am starting to doubt if any other horse ever will...

Holy Bull was the horse that really got me into the game---he was great, but as you said, not underrated. I think at his best he was as brilliantly fast as anyone in the last 25 years, and thankfully there were a few races where he blew everyone off the track and showed that (edited to add that the "cause for Concern" race may have been my favorite, as he gamely held off the horse that would go on to win the Classic).

Big Brown, Barbaro, various others in the past decade, there were some great efforts but then an "If only..." at the end (at least as far as the "all-timers" list goes).

[thaskalos]

Citation.

He is regarded as one of the best horses of all time...but, as time goes by, people forget how good he really was.

And it gets to the point where his name is hardly mentioned anymore...

Pity...

[mountainman]

dr fager: in the 60's, the words "cheap" and "speed" were still too synonymous to give a horse with his blazing turn of foot proper due. and bypassing the spring classics limited his exposure to the masses.

[Dan Montilion]

Java Gold
Manila
Dahlia

[castaway01]

Java Gold
Manila
Dahlia

Agree on Manila, though turf horses will always get less hype in the US. Great horse though.

[menifee]

Tabasco Cat is underrated.

[cj]

Java Gold

He was tremendous for a short period of time.

[PaceAdvantage]

Tabasco Cat is underrated.I don't really see how. Even with a rabbit in the Travers, who ran Holy Bull to an opening :22 4/5 quarter in a 10 furlong race, he still was well beaten.

EdzSMdBqawc

[classhandicapper]

I think Invasor deserves some kind of honorable mention also. Almost no one talks about him, but he was good and possibly still getting better when his career ended. He had a couple of rough trips, showed a lot of determination to win etc.. For that matter, maybe Bernadini deserves an honorable mention also. He was only 3 when he ran a solid 2nd in the Classic and he's been such a great sire so far, it's a shame we didn't see him at 4.

[classhandicapper]

How about Slew of Gold?

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't really see how. Even with a rabbit in the Travers, who ran Holy Bull to an opening :22 4/5 quarter in a 10 furlong race, he still was well beaten.

EdzSMdBqawcSorry to quote myself, but the hair on the back of my neck STILL STANDS UP when I watch this race...

[jognlope]

Menarchos hardly got noticed for second fastest Derby time in history.

[DeltaLover]

I am surprised that only one has mentioned SHAM so far!

We can make a big case about him born in the worst year for an aspiring champ...

He would have eaten any other horse alive...

Any other year and he would have easily been in top 5 league of modern era...

[Dahoss9698]

Menarchos hardly got noticed for second fastest Derby time in history.

It's Monarchos, and it's probably because the time was a product of the track and the insane early pace.

[Maximillion]

I might get blasted for this (im o.k. with that).....but if there had been a BC classic back in 1973 I think Secretariat would have had his hands full with Prove Out (assuming both in peak form).....the fact that many racing fans have no idea of who the horse is easily make him #1 underated in my book.

[ArlJim78]

Sorry to quote myself, but the hair on the back of my neck STILL STANDS UP when I watch this race...
but it is worth repeating. even though I know what's going to happen, every time I see that replay I can't believe what I'm seeing.

[nijinski]

but it is worth repeating. even though I know what's going to happen, every time I see that replay I can't believe what I'm seeing.
Amazing horse , incredible race , great race calling too ! Just a little cause for "Concern" :lol: I did get a kick out of that call .

[nijinski]

Sorry to quote myself, but the hair on the back of my neck STILL STANDS UP when I watch this race...
Thanks for bringing this back .

[VeryOldMan]

I might get blasted for this (im o.k. with that).....but if there had been a BC classic back in 1973 I think Secretariat would have had his hands full with Prove Out (assuming both in peak form).....the fact that many racing fans have no idea of who the horse is easily make him #1 underated in my book.

No blasting from me - that's when I first started paying attention to the sport; Prove Out beat Secretariat, Riva Ridge, Forego and Cougar II in a span of 2 months and put up some fantastic times.

[westny]

Then you don't think much of our last TC winner, either.


Really :rolleyes:

:D Alydar...the ONLY horse ever...in 138 years to finish 2nd in ALL 3 Triple Crown races to THE TC Winner.

[Maximillion]

No blasting from me - that's when I first started paying attention to the sport; Prove Out beat Secretariat, Riva Ridge, Forego and Cougar II in a span of 2 months and put up some fantastic times.


Looking at the the way the the JCGC of 1973 unfolded...(on paper...never seen live,still feel I can offer an opinion) It appeared like a possible "vengeful" tactic
backfired in a big way.

I would love to see a video of that race.

[SaratogaSteve]

you don't hear enough about Fit To Fight, Steinlen, Track Barron, and Gulch

[PhantomOnTour]

Menarchos hardly got noticed for second fastest Derby time in history.
Didn't Sham run a faster Derby than him?

[thespaah]

Precisionist: As an older horse, won Grade I races from 6 furlongs to 1 1/4 miles.
Bastard. ;) .Stole my thunder....
Excellent post!!!

[thespaah]

Cozzene. Highland Blade.

[Valuist]

How about Slew of Gold?

I mentioned him way back early in this thread (6th post), but yes you are correct. One of the top horses in the 30 years or so that I've been following the game.

[Valuist]

Menarchos hardly got noticed for second fastest Derby time in history.

For several reasons: it was run over a concrete hard surface which rendered the unadjusted times almost meaningless. Secondly, it was a tremendous pace battle with several sprinters who set the race up for his late rally. Thirdly, Monarchos never won another race. He wasn't retired right away; just didn't win again.

I crushed that Derby so I was very happy he won, but objectively, nobody believes he was the 2nd best Derby winner.

[big frank]

what about ZIPPY CHIPPY ??

[cj]

Risen Star was one brutal trip from being a Triple Crown winner.

[menifee]

I don't really see how. Even with a rabbit in the Travers, who ran Holy Bull to an opening :22 4/5 quarter in a 10 furlong race, he still was well beaten.

EdzSMdBqawc

Tabasco Cat ran in all three legs of the triple crown and won the Preakness and the Belmont. Got crushed at the beginning of the Derby, perhaps he wins it and is a triple crown horse. Triple crown sequence really cost him later in the year as his form tailed off. That's what real champions do, they run in the triple crown races. They don't hide after getting beat in the Derby as the chalk.

Just kidding - just wanted to fire you up. Holy Bull was a great horse, but I think Tabasco Cat is really underrated.

[Dan Montilion]

My Juliet

[Dahoss2002]

Risen Star was one brutal trip from being a Triple Crown winner.
Yes he was. Can still remember Ronny Lamarque singing "New York New York" after the Preakness victory and I remember Woody Stephens saying something like, "We may not win it but the filly wont" (in Preakness) talking bout 49er gonna run Winning Colors in the ground.

Damn CJ, that seems like yesterday, thanks for reminding me how old I am and now we got another horse to mention ..........WINNING COLORS!!
My top 3

1) Winning Colors
2) Sunday Silence
3) Risen Star

[Sysonby]

I am surprised that only one has mentioned SHAM so far!

We can make a big case about him born in the worst year for an aspiring champ...

He would have eaten any other horse alive...

Any other year and he would have easily been in top 5 league of modern era...

Agreed, although don't know if he would have won the TC. He would have set records in the first two though.

[Pine Tree Lane]

Bold Forbes.

He was a coronet band laceration (and 4 lengths) away from being a Triple Crown winner. Set stakes records from 7 furlongs (1:20 3/5 Bay Shore) to 1 1/8 miles (1:47 2/5 in the Wood Memorial). His 6 furlongs in 1:09 flat in the Preakness (on three legs!) broke the track record and he still hung around gamely for third.

This from someone who is dedicated to the figs:

Bold Forbes ran Ragozins of 3.5 in both of his final 2 Kentucky Derby preps and he actually "bounced" to a 6 in his Kentucky Derby victory ... though he did run the fastest 1st quarter by any Derby winner in history.

Comparatively:

Seattle Slew ran figures of 7.25, 7.25, and a 10 in his final three preps for the Kentucky Derby. He ran a figure of 7 in his KY Derby -- albeit he did have some real trouble early on.

Len Ragozin called Bold Forbes "one of the fastest 2-year-olds in history" in his book The Odds Must Be Crazy.

[Pine Tree Lane]

Not only that, he was a biter! I was at his stall shortly after he was announced retired and saw his teeth work firsthand...luckily, it wasn't me he took a swipe at! :lol:

The bruise that sucker left behind was nasty!


And he laughed alot too!

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3225/2985158527_d23dca2b71_b.jpg

[Valuist]

I will add a third horse to the list: Manila. Manila was robbed of Horse of the Year in 1986 when he won the BC Turf over arguably, the strongest field of grass runners ever assembled in North America. You had Dancing Brave, considered one of the top European horses of all time; you had Theatrical, who would win the 1987 BC Turf, and Estrapade, fresh off a win in the Arlington Million, among those defeated by Manila that day.

[nijinski]

I will add a third horse to the list: Manila. Manila was robbed of Horse of the Year in 1986 when he won the BC Turf over arguably, the strongest field of grass runners ever assembled in North America. You had Dancing Brave, considered one of the top European horses of all time; you had Theatrical, who would win the 1987 BC Turf, and Estrapade, fresh off a win in the Arlington Million, among those defeated by Manila that day.
Manila was a class act and I was so disappointed when he was sent to stud in Turkey.

[nijinski]

Bold and Determined was a phenomena .
She campaigned from coast to coast winning from 6 to 12 furlongs .

She defeated Genuine Risk , but who could deny GR the 3 yo filly Eclipse .
Tough time for Bold n Determined to be a great 3 three year old filly . Her ankles were not the best but she went out a winner!

[VeryOldMan]

Bold Forbes.



Great blast from the past! I guess the biggest knock on him is that he didn't come out and play with the big boys in the fall like his rival Honest Pleasure. I'll never forget this race, with Forego carrying 137 pounds (!!!!) versus Honest Pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMJjiWXCM3s

[Ca9]

Count Fleet.

[elysiantraveller]

Not of all time but...

Ghostzapper
Medaglia D'Oro
Roses in May

[thespaah]

Bold Forbes.

He was a coronet band laceration (and 4 lengths) away from being a Triple Crown winner. Set stakes records from 7 furlongs (1:20 3/5 Bay Shore) to 1 1/8 miles (1:47 2/5 in the Wood Memorial). His 6 furlongs in 1:09 flat in the Preakness (on three legs!) broke the track record and he still hung around gamely for third.

This from someone who is dedicated to the figs:

Bold Forbes ran Ragozins of 3.5 in both of his final 2 Kentucky Derby preps and he actually "bounced" to a 6 in his Kentucky Derby victory ... though he did run the fastest 1st quarter by any Derby winner in history.

Comparatively:

Seattle Slew ran figures of 7.25, 7.25, and a 10 in his final three preps for the Kentucky Derby. He ran a figure of 7 in his KY Derby -- albeit he did have some real trouble early on.

Len Ragozin called Bold Forbes "one of the fastest 2-year-olds in history" in his book The Odds Must Be Crazy.
I remember the write ups in the NY papers the day after Bold Forbes won the Belmont. Funniest thing I saw was, I'm paraphrasing, Cordero had to jump off and carry Bold Forbes the last 100 yards.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTrtq-zgZPw

[ronsmac]

Tiznow hands down.

[LLHorses]

Skip Away






I don't know if he's underrated but what a great horse. I rarely hear his name mentioned these days on the internet. Earned 9.6 million dollars (3rd highest ever) and cost less than $30,000. One of the all time greats no doubt. 34 times in the money in 38 races.


Skip Away - Equibase Profile (http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=1403243&registry=T)

[Steve R]

Spend a Buck

[dilanesp]

Noor.

4 victories against Citation, a bunch of records, a 1 1/4 mile record that stood for 30 years and was broken once in 60. First horse, and one of two in history, to beat two TC winners. Beat one of the best fields in history in 1950 Hollywood Gold Cup.

Of those already mentioned, I'd say Zenyatta. People who wanted to oppose synthetic tracks tore down her accomplishments. But we will go a long time before a mare misses winning two BC Classics by a head even if they run it on moon dust.

[VeryOldMan]

Noor.

4 victories against Citation, a bunch of records, a 1 1/4 mile record that stood for 30 years and was broken once in 60. First horse, and one of two in history, to beat two TC winners. Beat one of the best fields in history in 1950 Hollywood Gold Cup.



Good one! Google confirmed my guess about the identity of the other horse to beat two Triple Crown winners - makes me want to light a candle for Exceller, knowing his tragic fate. Maybe he should be on this list.

[andtheyreoff]

Of those already mentioned, I'd say Zenyatta. People who wanted to oppose synthetic tracks tore down her accomplishments. But we will go a long time before a mare misses winning two BC Classics by a head even if they run it on moon dust.

I'm not sure if you read this forum (or any internet racing forum) back in the day, but based on what I saw then, the LAST thing anyone would call Zenyatta was underrated.

Here's another candidate among those not yet mentioned- Flanders.

[nijinski]

I'm not sure if you read this forum (or any internet racing forum) back in the day, but based on what I saw then, the LAST thing anyone would call Zenyatta was underrated.

Here's another candidate among those not yet mentioned- Flanders.
A fine 2yo and did pretty well as a broodmare too .
You could make a case watching her campaign for squashing the BC Juvey.
Career ending injuries for her

[Not4Love]

Yes! Yes! Zenyatta . I believe horses have a tendency to break just a little slower going poly to dirt . Not front runners, but the one run type. I will always believe its why she got beat by Blame.

[SmartyLane]

Holy Bull in the Travers. Wow! I got in this game in the early 2000's and thought I had watched most all the great races from the last 30 years or so. I had not seen that one. Pace, you mentioned the hair on your neck. For me it is the chills, and I got them watching that race for the first time just minutes ago. Wow! How did I miss that one :bang:

Underrated since I been really watching, Tiznow for sure. 10 years from now my guy Game on Dude will mentioned in a thread like this. May not be the best but he is fits his name, Game.

[nijinski]

Holy Bull in the Travers. Wow! I got in this game in the early 2000's and thought I had watched most all the great races from the last 30 years or so. I had not seen that one. Pace, you mentioned the hair on your neck. For me it is the chills, and I got them watching that race for the first time just minutes ago. Wow! How did I miss that one :bang:

Underrated since I been really watching, Tiznow for sure. 10 years from now my guy Game on Dude will mentioned in a thread like this. May not be the best but he is fits his name, Game.

He was shown on the News Channels as well . I think they got a kick out of his name too!

[Stillriledup]

Yes! Yes! Zenyatta . I believe horses have a tendency to break just a little slower going poly to dirt . Not front runners, but the one run type. I will always believe its why she got beat by Blame.

:ThmbUp:

Many might scoff at the idea that Z was 'underrated' but if you put her actual talent aside for a second and just concentrate on the idea that its hard to remember a top horse, in any generation, that had as many haters as she had, you can make the case she's badly underrated.

The concept of "rating" whether its under rated or over rated has to do with how people 'rate' a certain horse.

If we just go on the 'rating' of serious racing fans and avoid using the 'ratings' of the horsey types, we can see that very few serious fans thought Z was even good much less great. You can see how she was berated because of the way she was managed, but i believe that because serious racing fans came down hard on the owners for the conservative management of Z, those fans created an environment where the HORSE was 'rated' as being worse than she actually was just because the fans (many of them) were so mad that Z didnt tour the country and face Rachel, they had to take it out on someone, so, i believe, they took it out on the horse by saying she wasnt all that great, etc.

Maybe Z's owners are 'overrated' as far as being great sportsmen goes, but its unfortunate that the horse got caught up in the hate storm surrounding masses of racing fans who were PO'd at the conservative handling of the horse. It wasnt Zs fault her owners didnt manage her according to the smartest message board posters in cyberspace, but that's no real reason to hold it against the actual horse.

This is why i feel she wasnt rated properly and would never get her due for being great.

[PaceAdvantage]

Many might scoff at the idea that Z was 'underrated' but if you put her actual talent aside for a second and just concentrate on the idea that its hard to remember a top horse, in any generation, that had as many haters as she had, you can make the case she's badly underrated.LOTS of top horses had plenty of "haters" throughout the years. You just have a poor memory of the sport's history. For example, Seattle Slew had more than his share of doubters, even after winning the Triple Crown (Andy Beyer included). It wasn't until his 4yo campaign that he made a believer out of all.If we just go on the 'rating' of serious racing fans and avoid using the 'ratings' of the horsey types, we can see that very few serious fans thought Z was even good much less great.Another huge falsehood. Everyone agreed Zenyatta was more than good. And among mares, there was nobody on here that I can remember that didn't think she was a great one after her BC Classic win. It was the ones who were calling her one of the best HORSES EVER (male or female) that we took umbrage with.It wasnt Zs fault her owners didnt manage her according to the smartest message board posters in cyberspace, but that's no real reason to hold it against the actual horse.

This is why i feel she wasnt rated properly and would never get her due for being great.Ridiculous.

[dilanesp]

The real underrating of Zenyatta involves the pretense that the synthetic wins "don't count", including the B.C. Classic. And that she should be dinged for "ducking" but horses who ducked races on synthetic tracks should not be.

Indeed I even saw some serious claims that because the 2009 Classic was on synthetic, it didn't even matter as much as the Breeders' Cup preps in New York that year which had shorter weaker fields.

The point is for a number of people, the merits of Zenyatta were lost in the hatred of synthettic surfaces and the contesting of major races on them.

[thaskalos]

The real underrating of Zenyatta involves the pretense that the synthetic wins "don't count", including the B.C. Classic. And that she should be dinged for "ducking" but horses who ducked races on synthetic tracks should not be.

Indeed I even saw some serious claims that because the 2009 Classic was on synthetic, it didn't even matter as much as the Breeders' Cup preps in New York that year which had shorter weaker fields.

The point is for a number of people, the merits of Zenyatta were lost in the hatred of synthettic surfaces and the contesting of major races on them.
This seems like a reasonable argument to me...

Let's not forget that, for 95% of her career, Zenyatta was considered by many to be just a "synthetic surface curiosity"...

[Dahoss9698]

:ThmbUp:

Many might scoff at the idea that Z was 'underrated' but if you put her actual talent aside for a second and just concentrate on the idea that its hard to remember a top horse, in any generation, that had as many haters as she had, you can make the case she's badly underrated.

The concept of "rating" whether its under rated or over rated has to do with how people 'rate' a certain horse.

If we just go on the 'rating' of serious racing fans and avoid using the 'ratings' of the horsey types, we can see that very few serious fans thought Z was even good much less great. You can see how she was berated because of the way she was managed, but i believe that because serious racing fans came down hard on the owners for the conservative management of Z, those fans created an environment where the HORSE was 'rated' as being worse than she actually was just because the fans (many of them) were so mad that Z didnt tour the country and face Rachel, they had to take it out on someone, so, i believe, they took it out on the horse by saying she wasnt all that great, etc.

Maybe Z's owners are 'overrated' as far as being great sportsmen goes, but its unfortunate that the horse got caught up in the hate storm surrounding masses of racing fans who were PO'd at the conservative handling of the horse. It wasnt Zs fault her owners didnt manage her according to the smartest message board posters in cyberspace, but that's no real reason to hold it against the actual horse.

This is why i feel she wasnt rated properly and would never get her due for being great.

fEkWH8DB7b0

[maddog42]

Sorry to quote myself, but the hair on the back of my neck STILL STANDS UP when I watch this race...


Was Holy Bull "gotten to" as this article implies? It does make a little sense. I too was a big Fan of this horse and wish he could have met Cigar at a better time in his career.
From Bloodhorse:

"Holy Bull’s career was extraordinary. Following his debut victory, he won 12 of his next 14 starts, with six of them coming in grade I stakes and three in grade II stakes. His only two losses came in the Fountain of Youth Stakes, in which he displaced his palate and lost his air, and the Kentucky Derby, when he turned in an uncharacteristically lifeless performance that Croll said he could explain, but “can't talk about.” Years later he began talking about it more and more. Until the day he died in 2008 at age 88, Croll was convinced that Holy Bull was gotten to before the Derby. Many at the time commented how listless he seemed leading up to the race."

Most of the time when a trainer talks like this I dismiss it, but it makes a little more sense in this case.

[Dan Montilion]

Personal Ensign

[usedtolovetvg]

Northern Dancer

[Stillriledup]

The real underrating of Zenyatta involves the pretense that the synthetic wins "don't count", including the B.C. Classic. And that she should be dinged for "ducking" but horses who ducked races on synthetic tracks should not be.

Indeed I even saw some serious claims that because the 2009 Classic was on synthetic, it didn't even matter as much as the Breeders' Cup preps in New York that year which had shorter weaker fields.

The point is for a number of people, the merits of Zenyatta were lost in the hatred of synthettic surfaces and the contesting of major races on them.

These are good points.

[Cicada]

Old Hat.

Race record: 80: 35-18-9

[BlueChip@DRF]

what about ZIPPY CHIPPY ??

Yeah. It took ENTIRE fields to beat him. No one gave him his due. :)

[BlueChip@DRF]

Arrowmanches

[castaway01]

:ThmbUp:

Many might scoff at the idea that Z was 'underrated' but if you put her actual talent aside for a second and just concentrate on the idea that its hard to remember a top horse, in any generation, that had as many haters as she had, you can make the case she's badly underrated.

The concept of "rating" whether its under rated or over rated has to do with how people 'rate' a certain horse.

If we just go on the 'rating' of serious racing fans and avoid using the 'ratings' of the horsey types, we can see that very few serious fans thought Z was even good much less great. You can see how she was berated because of the way she was managed, but i believe that because serious racing fans came down hard on the owners for the conservative management of Z, those fans created an environment where the HORSE was 'rated' as being worse than she actually was just because the fans (many of them) were so mad that Z didnt tour the country and face Rachel, they had to take it out on someone, so, i believe, they took it out on the horse by saying she wasnt all that great, etc.

Maybe Z's owners are 'overrated' as far as being great sportsmen goes, but its unfortunate that the horse got caught up in the hate storm surrounding masses of racing fans who were PO'd at the conservative handling of the horse. It wasnt Zs fault her owners didnt manage her according to the smartest message board posters in cyberspace, but that's no real reason to hold it against the actual horse.

This is why i feel she wasnt rated properly and would never get her due for being great.

So glad you came back to ruin any decent threads...ugh.

Wherever you were the past few months, go back there, please.

[djm1959]

boom towner

[Stillriledup]

boom towner

BT retired in 1998 with just a shade under a million in lifetime earnings. He was trained by Mike Hushion and had 82 lifetime starts and 29 wins.

[thaskalos]

BT retired in 1998 with just a shade under a million in lifetime earnings. He was trained by Mike Hushion and had 82 lifetime starts and 29 wins.
Any man that can recall information like this so vividly is a valuable asset to this board...IMO. :)

Welcome back, SRU...

And please know that you have at least one friend at this site...:ThmbUp:

[affirmedny]

Round Table 66 Starts: 43 - 8 - 5 equally good on dirt or turf

[Valuist]

Formal Gold

[Stillriledup]

Any man that can recall information like this so vividly is a valuable asset to this board...IMO. :)

Welcome back, SRU...

And please know that you have at least one friend at this site...:ThmbUp:


Thanks, but i cheated, i googled it, the most i remembered was that he raced in NY a bunch of years ago and Mike Hushion was the trainer. I hit up google and made it my friend.

Thanks for the support, it means a lot. I know you're respected here, hopefully the others won't hold it against you for being my friend.

:D

[cj]

Formal Gold

I remember the SKip Away, Formal Gold, Will's Way races, they were great.

I'll add another, Inside Information. She is definitely underrated. Hell, she was considered second best in her barn by many before destroying her entry-mate in the Distaff.

[Dahoss9698]

Any man that can recall information like this so vividly is a valuable asset to this board...IMO. :)

Welcome back, SRU...

And please know that you have at least one friend at this site...:ThmbUp:

Yeah, it was pretty tough to google that information.

I like what you did here though. Very clever.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Arrowmanches

Loved that horse.

[classhandicapper]

Possibly Le Prince, a 1987 son of Seattle Slew

Might have been a world beater. Might have been another overhyped maiden winner. But his connections thought he might be as good as his father. There are still articles out there about him.

[classhandicapper]

Optimistic Gal & Dearly Precious

Revidere

[anotherCAfan]

Real Connection

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/apr/27/sports/sp-derby27
There have been other stakes-winning one-eyed horses, including One-Eyed King, Mystic Eye and Funny Fellow, but the champ, as far as purses are concerned, was probably Real Connection, a hard-knocking mare. Trainer Mel Stute bought her privately for Bill Thomas for $55,000 shortly after she'd notched her first victory. Real Connection registered her biggest victory in the 1997 Las Palmas Handicap at Santa Anita and wound up earning $1.2 million. A few years later, Real Connection died of colic. "We had heard that Real Connection's mother kicked her in the eye when she was a baby," Stute said. "We tried to place her on the outside in her races, so she didn't have to be concerned with not seeing horses on her right."

[VeryOldMan]

Revidere

Nice call - I'd forgotten about her. After the Ruffian catastrophe in 1975, Revidere probably didn't get her due and/or was retired early. Shared a sire with Ruffian.

[SharpCat]

I remember the SKip Away, Formal Gold, Will's Way races, they were great.

I'll add another, Inside Information. She is definitely underrated. Hell, she was considered second best in her barn by many before destroying her entry-mate in the Distaff.


Have to agree here no doubt. Inside Information toyed with a stacked field including Heavenly Prize, Serena's Song and Lakeway.