The 3 stooges at it again.

[Karakiozis]

http://www.drf.com/news/saratoga-steward-halts-betting-early-mistak (http://www.drf.com/news/saratoga-steward-halts-betting-early-mistake)

[PaceAdvantage]

Funny...I guess this puts to rest all the conspiracy theories that like to be floated on how one can bet after the bell...at least at NYRA.

That's a good thing, is it not?

[PhantomOnTour]

It wasn't NYRA, it was someone from the NYSRWB who flipped the switch.
This ain't gonna be pretty, as folks are naturally gonna wonder if he ever flipped that switch a few seconds late.

[Dahoss9698]

It wasn't NYRA, it was someone from the NYSRWB who flipped the switch.


Yeah, you would think the thread starter would actually read the first line of an article he posted. To be fair, that might be asking a bit much.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, you would think the thread starter would actually read the first line of an article he posted. To be fair, that might be asking a bit much.The thread starter never stated it was a NYRA steward. Unless he edited that part of his post, which I'm assuming he did.

[PaceAdvantage]

This ain't gonna be pretty, as folks are naturally gonna wonder if he ever flipped that switch a few seconds late.Even if he did, one would have to presume EVERYONE would be able to bet after the horses broke from the gate, so that kind of negates the advantage, don't you think?

Unless you're going to claim he has a couple of secret buttons that only let a select few bet late.

[Dahoss9698]

The thread starter never stated it was a NYRA steward. Unless he edited that part of his post, which I'm assuming he did.

Good assumption

[usedtolovetvg]

Wonder what track he confused for Saratoga? Of course, it's very easy to be confused, especially when they have that Saratoga marquee on the starting gate.

[PhantomOnTour]

Even if he did, one would have to presume EVERYONE would be able to bet after the horses broke from the gate, so that kind of negates the advantage, don't you think?

Unless you're going to claim he has a couple of secret buttons that only let a select few bet late.
I never try to bet after the bell because i presume the windows are closed, as does almost every other bettor, but if we KNEW they were still open...

I'm not implying that these guys past posted or anything like that, but it's natural to wonder that if the guy shuts it down early he may have also shut it down late a time or two.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not to step in and defend and be accused once again of being a NYRA apologist (even though this wasn't a NYRA steward), but if he was running late...maybe rushing back from a bathroom break...whatever...and he gets in and looks quickly up at the screen, I think we can all understand where this type of mistake could be made.

Better he closed it early rather than late.

[PaceAdvantage]

I never try to bet after the bell because i presume the windows are closed, as does almost every other bettor, but if we KNEW they were still open...Point taken.

If only the racing industry would modernize, perhaps we could do away with human intervention when it comes to closing the pools. Like an automated system that closes the pools once the gates swing open, OR perhaps an additional timing-like light beam sensor placed directly near the gate that will close the pools once the horses break...if that should fail, then a human can step in and close the pools. Just a quick thought off the top of my head.

Problem sol-ved.

[usedtolovetvg]

Sorry this is inexcusable. All track camera angles would have been available where he was. He should have been able to pick out Saratoga. I do have a question though to show my ignorance, why didn't he turn it back on? Is that not possible?

[usedtolovetvg]

I never try to bet after the bell because i presume the windows are closed, as does almost every other bettor, but if we KNEW they were still open...

I'm not implying that these guys past posted or anything like that, but it's natural to wonder that if the guy shuts it down early he may have also shut it down late a time or two.

I was at Greenwood (Old Woodbine) years ago and the bell never went off, evidently the guy who flipped the switch got stuck in a busted elevator. This was in the day when big cardboard tickets came out with each bet. Once the sellers realized what was going on, and it didn't take long, a look down the line saw the tickets come spewing out. All the tickets were for the sellers, the fans were ignored. To make a long story, the winner came up in the final jump and not to many had it. I do remember it was a bizarre scene.

[thaskalos]

I do have a question though to show my ignorance, why didn't he turn it back on? Is that not possible?

He probably also made the mistake of thinking that the 9th race Monday was Saratoga's last race of the day, and that his day was done. So he left....:)

[PaceAdvantage]

I do have a question though to show my ignorance, why didn't he turn it back on? Is that not possible?If it were possible, don't you think he would have?

If I **** up at work and have a chance to correct it, whereby nobody would ever know I ****ed up, don't you think I would?

[usedtolovetvg]

If I **** up at work and have a chance to correct it, whereby nobody would ever know I ****ed up, don't you think I would?

Yes, I absolutely think that you would. The guy who did it, well him, I'm not so sure.

[Karakiozis]

Yeah, you would think the thread starter would actually read the first line of an article he posted. To be fair, that might be asking a bit much.


Who ever you are you must be the envy of your neighborhood.

[PaceAdvantage]

Who ever you are you must be the envy of your neighborhood.With the picks he has made here over time, I don't doubt it...

[Tom]

This is 2012.....why are they depending on human interaction to do what should be automatic?

Welcome to 1978.

[Karakiozis]

With the picks he has made here over time, I don't doubt it...

Maybe he is a good handicapper, but I think his character is questionable.

[PaceAdvantage]

Maybe he is a good handicapper, but I think his character is questionable.You're a better man than me if you can surmise a man's character through anonymous postings on a horse racing message board.

You yourself edited your first post in this thread upon realizing your mistake. He was simply calling you out on it...not sure how that goes towards definition of character...

Perhaps he was just acting on the character he has seen over the years of those quick to fault NYRA for things they are not guilty of. I can't say I blame him.

[thaskalos]

Perhaps he was just acting on the character he has seen over the years of those quick to fault NYRA for things they are not guilty of. I can't say I blame him.

I never realized that criticizing NYRA was a character flaw...

I always thought that you had to attack a particular person, before that person would retaliate against you...in a personal manner.

Who could have known that criticism towards NYRA -- or any other race-governing body, for that matter -- would be taken so personally by some on this board?

We were criticizing THE RACING INDUSTRY...not individual posters here...or so I thought...

[Dahoss9698]

Maybe he is a good handicapper, but I think his character is questionable.

Without getting too off topic, you're ridiculous Exiles. Look, it's not my fault in your haste to post something anti-NYRA that you didn't even read the article before posting it. As soon as you realized it (10 minutes after you posted the thread) you deleted everything you wrote....then questioned my character because I find your ignorance amusing?

Some might think a guy who came here with a new name after his old was banned....and then continues to lie about it might have some character issues. I wouldn't say it, because I don't know you. But some might.

As for the topic, really no excuse for something like this, especially in 2012.

[Dahoss9698]

I never realized that criticizing NYRA was a character flaw...

I always thought that you had to attack a particular person, before that person would retaliate against you...in a personal manner.

Who could have known that criticism towards NYRA -- or any other race-governing body, for that matter -- would be taken so personally by some on this board?

We were criticizing THE RACING INDUSTRY...not individual posters here...or so I thought...

I'm curious, do you think your buddy was fair in questioning my character because he's an idiot who can't read?

[PaceAdvantage]

I never realized that criticizing NYRA was a character flaw...It isn't.

But falsely criticizing them is, don't you agree? Consistent ignorance is indeed a character flaw.

[thaskalos]

I'm curious, do you think your buddy was fair in questioning my character because he's an idiot who can't read?

He is not my buddy...and I think you were right in pointing out the mistake that he made.

And NO...he shouldn't have brought your character into it.

But you have also made the mistake of attacking others...when all they had done was criticize faceless horse racing associations. And they had REASON to...

And that's not fair either...

[cj]

Point taken.

If only the racing industry would modernize, perhaps we could do away with human intervention when it comes to closing the pools. Like an automated system that closes the pools once the gates swing open, OR perhaps an additional timing-like light beam sensor placed directly near the gate that will close the pools once the horses break...if that should fail, then a human can step in and close the pools. Just a quick thought off the top of my head.

Problem sol-ved.

I thought there was an automatic switch, and the human is just a backup...kind of like the timers.

[cj]

One thing I will mention in this whole NYRA sucks, defend NYRA debate. 99% of racing fans don't give a shit if it is NYRA's fault or some other faction of the New York government. It is New York racing. People just often falsely use the acronym when they shouldn't. In the end though, not many care.

I will say New York certainly gets the most scrutiny, just like Window gets more than Linux and the NFL does more than the Arena League.

[mostpost]

Point taken.

If only the racing industry would modernize, perhaps we could do away with human intervention when it comes to closing the pools. Like an automated system that closes the pools once the gates swing open, OR perhaps an additional timing-like light beam sensor placed directly near the gate that will close the pools once the horses break...if that should fail, then a human can step in and close the pools. Just a quick thought off the top of my head.

Problem sol-ved.

A good idea, and I would say I wish I thought of it, except I did. But after a while I thought of a problem. What if a horse breaks through a gate or if they open a gate to entice a reluctant loader to come forward. So, a good but imperfect idea, but one which leads to the next possibility.

Have the starter control the closing of the pools with the same button he uses to open the gates. He could not open the gates without closing the pools and he could not close the pools without opening the gates.

I'm not sure this is a frequent enough problem to warrant changes-it's the first time I ever heard of it.

[Tom]

All nonsense aside, this is an opportunity...while I am at Toga this week, I will be watching the breaks, looking a speed pop and then try to bet late.
You never know....

Hey, life gives you lemons, make bets with them.:cool:

[thaskalos]

All nonsense aside, this is an opportunity...while I am at Toga this week, I will be watching the breaks, looking a speed pop and then try to bet late.
You never know....

Hey, life gives you lemons, make bets with them.:cool:

Don't bother...I already tried it.

My bet was rejected, even while the horses were still standing in the gate.

Those who are betting late must be using more sophisticated means...:)

[classhandicapper]

I find this rather unsettling as I intuitively thought when a race was closed was more of an automated or controlled process.

Does this mean the same guy could be in the bathroom when the race goes off and not close it or close it 10 seconds too late 1 or 2 times a month and let a friend know the day and race he will be asleep at the wheel? :lol:

[thaskalos]

I find this rather unsettling as I intuitively thought when a race was closed was more of an automated or controlled process.

Does this mean the same guy could be in the bathroom when the race goes off and not close it or close it 10 seconds too late 1 or 2 times a month? :lol:

Well...the same argument that we often hear when it comes to illegal drugs could possibly apply here as well...

There MIGHT be a few races where the betting does not exactly shut down upon the opening of the starting gate...but we can rest assured that this does not affect the vast majority of races...:)

[cj]

It has to be tied to the starter hitting the release button, doesn't it? If not this is totally insane. Even if there is a delay for canx bets as we know there is (which is bullshit), shouldn't that be based on the starter hitting the button?

[classhandicapper]

Well...the same argument that we often hear when it comes to illegal drugs could possibly apply here as well...

There MIGHT be a few races where the betting does not exactly shut down upon the opening of the starting gate...but we can rest assured the this does not affect the vast majority of races...:)

I believe some of the stories about betting after the bell could be true because I know it happened at the NY harness tracks many years ago and have seen flawed internet software in the last few years where it was possible for awhile (until I told them about it and they closed the hole). I have seen no evidence of it at NYRA, but there's at least 1 major track in this country where I've seen too many strange things to totally ignore.

[classhandicapper]

It has to be tied to the starter hitting the release button, doesn't it? If not this is totally insane. Even if there is a delay for canx bets as we know there is (which is bullshit), shouldn't that be based on the starter hitting the button?

I never really thought about it because I just assumed there had to be some internal controls, but that makes the most sense.

[PaceAdvantage]

It has to be tied to the starter hitting the release button, doesn't it? If not this is totally insane. Even if there is a delay for canx bets as we know there is (which is bullshit), shouldn't that be based on the starter hitting the button?Then perhaps he hit the "backup" button...or perhaps the rule is the steward must ALWAYS hit the backup button after the gates open, even if there is an automatic process involved that is triggered from the starter's button. This to absolutely ensure all wagering is closed after the start.

Either way, he thought he was just going about his usual business.

Someone should step in and remind us all of what the actual process is. I seem to remember having a similar discussion on here a few years ago.

[thaskalos]

It has to be tied to the starter hitting the release button, doesn't it? If not this is totally insane. Even if there is a delay for canx bets as we know there is (which is bullshit), shouldn't that be based on the starter hitting the button?

I have had mistakes made when the teller gave me the wrong bet...which I noticed while still standing at the window. On a couple of occasions...the teller's mistake was impossible to correct...because the horses had left the gate in the meantime.

In none of these cases have I ever gotten a refund of my money; I have argued vigorously...and have repeatedly been told that there was nothing that could be done. I was stuck with the wager I never asked for.

So, whom do these "delays for canceling bets" serve?

[cj]

Then perhaps he hit the "backup" button...or perhaps the rule is the steward must ALWAYS hit the backup button after the gates open, even if there is an automatic process involved that is triggered from the starter's button. This to absolutely ensure all wagering is closed after the start.

Either way, he thought he was just going about his usual business.

Someone should step in and remind us all of what the actual process is. I seem to remember having a similar discussion on here a few years ago.

I'd love to know what track he was watching that he confused with the track he works at every day. That is pretty lame. Kind of hard to miss that name in big red letters.

http://www.saratoga.com/horse-racing-blog/assets_c/2009/07/Saratoga%20Starting%20Gate%20Credit%20Adam%20Cogli anese%201-thumb-350x231-1041.jpg

[cj]

I have had mistakes made when the teller gave me the wrong bet...which I noticed while still standing at the window. On a couple of occasions...the teller's mistake was impossible to correct...because the horses had left the gate in the meantime.

In none of these cases have I ever gotten a refund of my money; I have argued vigorously...and have repeatedly been told that there was nothing that could be done. I was stuck with the wager I never asked for.

So, whom do these "delays for canceling bets" serve?

Not me, which is why I say it is bullshit. Supposedly it is to protect tellers.

[usedtolovetvg]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]
Either way, he thought he was just going about his usual business.

I think you are being way too kind by saying he was just going about his usual business. Something obviously made him panic and pull the switch too soon. Surely, he should have known that there was still 2 minutes to post and he was looking at the wrong monitor. If that was the way he always operates, he should be replaced. If he came hurriedly back after doing other business, then he can be forgiven this time. Still, there must have been a reason he made such a colossal error. Enquring minds would like to know.

[PaceAdvantage]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]
Either way, he thought he was just going about his usual business.

I think you are being way too kind by saying he was just going about his usual business. Something obviously made him panic and pull the switch too soon. Surely, he should have known that there was still 2 minutes to post and he was looking at the wrong monitor. If that was the way he always operates, he should be replaced. If he came hurriedly back after doing other business, then he can be forgiven this time. Still, there must have been a reason he made such a colossal error. Enquring minds would like to know.Not sure this qualifies as a colossal error. A colossal error would have been leaving the pools open well after the race started.

And I didn't say "he was going about his usual business." I said "he THOUGHT he was just going about his usual business." Big difference IMO, and therefore, I am not being way too kind.

[usedtolovetvg]

I'd love to know what track he was watching that he confused with the track he works at every day. That is pretty lame. Kind of hard to miss that name in big red letters.

http://www.saratoga.com/horse-racing-blog/assets_c/2009/07/Saratoga%20Starting%20Gate%20Credit%20Adam%20Cogli anese%201-thumb-350x231-1041.jpg

That was what I suggested at the start of the thread. And, let's not forget it was Monday. What tracks are running Monday that could confuse him?

[usedtolovetvg]

[QUOTE=usedtolovetvg]Not sure this qualifies as a colossal error. A colossal error would have been leaving the pools open well after the race started.
Since the bulk of the wagering is done in the last 3 minutes, I'd say it was pretty big.

[thaskalos]

You cannot read this story without getting the disconcerting feeling that the responsibility of shutting down the wagering has been assigned to a single individual; and this borders on the absurd.

Why else would a man panic to this extent at the sight of horses leaving the starting gate?

[PaceAdvantage]

That was what I suggested at the start of the thread. And, let's not forget it was Monday. What tracks are running Monday that could confuse him?It wouldn't be too difficult, since there weren't many tracks running Monday, to see exactly which track/race went off around 2 minutes prior to this Saratoga race in question.

[cj]

You cannot read this story without getting the disconcerting feeling that the responsibility of shutting down the wagering has been assigned to a single individual; and this borders on the absurd.

Why else would a man panic to this extent at the sight of horses leaving the starting gate?

What I find amazing is that nowhere on Google can I find out how the system actually works. I still think the human is a backup, and I hope I'm right.

[cj]

It wouldn't be too difficult, since there weren't many tracks running Monday, to see exactly which track/race went off around 2 minutes prior to this Saratoga race in question.

This is horse racing. If there 8 other tracks, it could be up to 8!

[usedtolovetvg]

[QUOTE=usedtolovetvg]
I said "he THOUGHT he was just going about his usual business." Big difference IMO, and therefore, I am not being way too kind.

Ok, if he thinks that's the way he should be going about his business, he should be replaced. There are others that would think they should do the business more diligently.

[cj]

Wow, looking at tracks that ran, I think it was Ruidoso. How do you make that mistake?

[PaceAdvantage]

[QUOTE=PaceAdvantage]

Ok, if he thinks that's the way he should be going about his business, he should be replaced. There are others that would think they should do the business more diligently.Did I say HE THINKS THIS IS THE WAY HE SHOULD BE GOING ABOUT HIS BUSINESS?

No....you are a strange duck at times.

I am sure the guy feels the way we all do when we screw up at work royally, and I would venture to guess, most of us have at one point or another in our lives.

I doubt very much if he thinks this is the way he should be going about his business...messing up and pressing the button two minutes early.

[PaceAdvantage]

Wow, looking at tracks that ran, I think it was Ruidoso. How do you make that mistake?Sunshine?

And I have a hard time believing Ruidoso would be carried on any TV monitor anywhere in Saratoga proper, let alone the steward stand...

[cj]

Sunshine?

They guy confused a two turn dirt race in the mountains for a one turn turf race at his home track? Wow, I'm a lenient guy, but come on.

http://thelegalblitz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/RuidosoDowns_NewMexico.jpg

[cj]

Sunshine?

And I have a hard time believing Ruidoso would be carried on any TV monitor anywhere in Saratoga proper, let alone the steward stand...

Well, unless he confused it with a harness race, it is the only candidate. No other track was even running.

[v j stauffer]

What I find amazing is that nowhere on Google can I find out how the system actually works. I still think the human is a backup, and I hope I'm right.

In California the stewards are responsible for closing the pools. I've seen it done two different ways. One is to press a huge red button immediately as the field leaves the gate. Another is to have a placing judge in the stewards stand within clear earshot. He'll be at a computer terminal. Flashing on the screen will be the question " do you want to close the betting pools?". His finger will be poised very near "y". When the last horse enters the gate all stewards will say "all in" as the field is dispatched all three stewards will say in a loud voice "LOCK EM" the placing judge will immediately say "locked". Have never seen either process fail.

However should it fail, as a protection, a technition in the tote room will moniter the process. If he sees the race not locked after just a few seconds he has the ability and permission to lock the pools from his position.

[cj]

In California the stewards are responsible for closing the pools. I've seen it done two different ways. One is to press a huge red button immediately as the field leaves the gate. Another is to have a placing judge in the stewards stand within clear earshot. He'll be at a computer terminal. Flashing on the screen will be the question " do you want to close the betting pools?". His finger will be poised very near "y". When the last horse enters the gate all stewards will say "all in" as the field is dispatched all three stewards will say in a loud voice "LOCK EM" the placing judge will immediately say "locked". Have never seen either process fail.

However should it fail, as a protection, a technition in the tote room will moniter the process. If he see the race not locked after just a few seconds he has the ability and permission to lock the pools from his position.

Oh, it has failed. There are documented cases of such including California if memory serves. In 2012, this is ridiculous.

[v j stauffer]

Oh, it has failed. There are documented cases of such including California if memory serves. In 2012, this is ridiculous.

I stated I have never seen the process fail. I've only had about 70 days in the stand personally and don't recall what you're speaking of.

[cj]

I stated I have never seen the process fail. I've only had about 70 days in the stand personally and don't recall what you're speaking of.

There have been plenty of cases of betting after the bell. Maybe I'm wrong about California.

[v j stauffer]

There have been plenty of cases of betting after the bell. Maybe I'm wrong about California.

You asked several times about how the process works. Simply trying to shed some light.

[Charli125]

There have been plenty of cases of betting after the bell. Maybe I'm wrong about California.
You're not wrong.

Here's the HANA (http://blog.horseplayersassociation.org/2009/11/maloney-on-golden-gate-incident.html) link to an incident in 2009 at Golden Gate.

[Charli125]

You asked several times about how the process works. Simply trying to shed some light.
Thanks for the explanation. It does shed some light, though it's shocking that a system where this much money is on the line still relies on people(sometimes more than 1) physically doing something.

[cj]

You asked several times about how the process works. Simply trying to shed some light.

I know, and I appreciate it. I was commenting on the system, not your reply.

[Quesmark]

Woodbine Harness Racetrack starts a countdown timer as the horses approach the gate,assemble,and roll toward the starting line,its clearly shown on their video feed,so bettors have the responsibility to watch the clock and get their bets in on time.
Racetracks to protect the integrity of the pools should close betting x amount of time before the gate opens,and clearly show it.At many U.S. tracks there are some ridiculous delays,like Charlestown where at 2 MTP a jockey change is needed on a 25/1 shot,or many tracks where a gate scratch necessitates a 10 minute delay to change the numbers,and let a few bettors cancel wagers and rebet.
Watching Austarlian racing if there's a late problem its resolved as quick as possible and the remaining runners get sent on their way.
While we're at it double loading the horses at post time is the preferred way to get the process over,and not have entries standing in the gate for a long time.

[Stillriledup]

Closing early vs closing late.

From the article it seems to not really indicate where the field (he thought was Saratoga) was at the point of the closure. It says 'breaking from the gate' . Does that mean they didnt actually break yet, or they were running for a few seconds? Lets assume that the horses had actually broke out of the gate and were running. If this was an actual Saratoga race, wouldnt there have been someone in the tote room who closed the pools (according to Vic, this happens in calif)?

Also, and here's another question that needs to be answered. Lets assume that this steward was correct and this was actually the 9th at the Spa that was running. Lets assume he did nothing and the entire race ran with the betting open. Couldnt he have just held up making the race official and if they did find that people bet after the start, just call it a no contest?

Instead of pulling a master of panic move, he could have just calmly tried to figure out if this was really a Saratoga race or not. If it truly was the Saratoga race and the betting was still open, the judges could have just declared it a no contest. Would have been no harm no foul, it would have been equivalent to the situation that happened at Santa Anita in the 3rd race on March 3, 2012.

[andtheyreoff]

Instead of pulling a master of panic move, he could have just calmly tried to figure out if this was really a Saratoga race or not. If it truly was the Saratoga race and the betting was still open, the judges could have just declared it a no contest. Would have been no harm no foul, it would have been equivalent to the situation that happened at Santa Anita in the 3rd race on March 3, 2012.

I'm sure it wouldn't have been "no harm no foul" to those that cashed on the race (like myself).

This and the SA situation are nothing alike. At Santa Anita, there was a starting gate malfunction that affected a large amount of the field. No such situation happened here, outside of a bad move by the stewards. To wait several seconds before finding out it was the Saratoga race (which should've been obvious) and then cancel betting on the race would be absurd.

And to those wondering what he could've confused the race for, my only guess was the screen was showing a replay from earlier in the day.

[Stillriledup]

I'm sure it wouldn't have been "no harm no foul" to those that cashed on the race (like myself).

This and the SA situation are nothing alike. At Santa Anita, there was a starting gate malfunction that affected a large amount of the field. No such situation happened here, outside of a bad move by the stewards. To wait several seconds before finding out it was the Saratoga race (which should've been obvious) and then cancel betting on the race would be absurd.

And to those wondering what he could've confused the race for, my only guess was the screen was showing a replay from earlier in the day.

They're alike in the sense that both races would have been declared no contests.

As far as 'no contest' races go, everytime there's a race that's declared a no contest, the people who bet on the winners are the ones who get punished the most, no doubt, but no contests are part of racing, its going to happen to you on occasion.

[Dahoss9698]

I'm sure it wouldn't have been "no harm no foul" to those that cashed on the race (like myself).

This and the SA situation are nothing alike. At Santa Anita, there was a starting gate malfunction that affected a large amount of the field. No such situation happened here, outside of a bad move by the stewards. To wait several seconds before finding out it was the Saratoga race (which should've been obvious) and then cancel betting on the race would be absurd.

And to those wondering what he could've confused the race for, my only guess was the screen was showing a replay from earlier in the day.

I'm with you that the two scenarios posted are nothing alike. I also like your idea about him possibly seeing a replay of an earlier race.

Don't get me wrong...it would still be a giant, stupid mistake. But not as bad as mistaking Saratoga for Ruidoso.

Either way, kind of an uneasy feeling knowing this guy is making decisions that could possibly impact our money.

[cj]

They're alike in the sense that both races would have been declared no contests.

As far as 'no contest' races go, everytime there's a race that's declared a no contest, the people who bet on the winners are the ones who get punished the most, no doubt, but no contests are part of racing, its going to happen to you on occasion.

This simply isn't true, because when races are declared no contests I usually means something happened that had a huge impact on the results.

[rastajenk]

To differentiate between NYRA and NYSRWB in this case is silly. The guy that did it is one of three stewards that work together on the roof. It wasn't some guy from the commission taking a long dump and realizing he might be missing something important, like the break. So it's inexcusable any way you slice it.

My question is, why are there other tracks being shown in the stewards' booth? Nothing going on anywhere else has anything to do with their functions at that track. I would hope some severe penalties are in the works.

I don't see why it should have been a no contest, though. After the pools closed, I hope they just loaded 'em up and let 'em go. That wouldn't stop the inflow of off-track money into the pools.

[Shelby]

In California the stewards are responsible for closing the pools. I've seen it done two different ways. One is to press a huge red button immediately as the field leaves the gate. Another is to have a placing judge in the stewards stand within clear earshot. He'll be at a computer terminal. Flashing on the screen will be the question " do you want to close the betting pools?". His finger will be poised very near "y". When the last horse enters the gate all stewards will say "all in" as the field is dispatched all three stewards will say in a loud voice "LOCK EM" the placing judge will immediately say "locked". Have never seen either process fail.

However should it fail, as a protection, a technition in the tote room will moniter the process. If he sees the race not locked after just a few seconds he has the ability and permission to lock the pools from his position.

Thank you SO much for walking us through the process. I was going crazy with questions as I read through this thread.

I always pictured that as soon as the gates opened some sort of signal was sent that closed the pools electronically.

Boy was I wrong.

[cj]

I don't see why it should have been a no contest, though. After the pools closed, I hope they just loaded 'em up and let 'em go. That wouldn't stop the inflow of off-track money into the pools.

People couldn't bet off track either.

[rastajenk]

I know that. I simply meant that the off track money that had already been bet would still come in, just like it does when a race is nearly half over and the odds change in mid-race. No reason to call it a no contest, as far as I can tell.

[therussmeister]

I find this rather unsettling as I intuitively thought when a race was closed was more of an automated or controlled process.

Does this mean the same guy could be in the bathroom when the race goes off and not close it or close it 10 seconds too late 1 or 2 times a month and let a friend know the day and race he will be asleep at the wheel? :lol:
When I read this article I assumed the guy who erroneously hit the button is the back-up and assumed there was some failure, so he closed wagering.

[Tom]

I have a timer that turns off my living room lamp every night.
Should I send the details of this cutting edge technology?
Or better yet, I could pick one up and drop it off this weekend.

[Quesmark]

Let me put this another way;in a digital age,post time should be post time....

[rastajenk]

No it shouldn't. Lots of reasons why the start could or should be delayed, none of which have much to do with this situation.

[Stillriledup]

So, in 2012 we just sent a sophisticated vehicle to Mars and we can't make the red button in the stewards room synched up with the button the head starter pushes when he opens the gate to start the race? When the starter pushes that button and the gate opens, we can't find a way to make THAT the 'close betting' button also?

[Canarsie]

People couldn't bet off track either.

I was among them and couldn't figure out why. 4NJBets sucks and it showed four minutes instead of two because of their stupid delay system. I was watching the NYRA feed and couldn't figure it out. When I turned on TVG they still weren't in the gate. I had no clue for what was going on thanks to the OP.

I have always heard that some ADW's send their money into the pools at the last minute. If that was the case there would be a lot more people bitching maybe one of the advertisers can comment on that.

[burnsy]

this is an ongoing problem here....one that has been leading to mistakes, questionable rulings and one time the improper taking down of the wrong horse. the stewards should be trained, sharp and have good eyes. Now, don't get me wrong, i'm not a young man anymore...i need reading glasses. but i'm still young enough to spot people doing jobs they should not be doing. most of these people have been around the track and they get the job by knowing someone or appointment.
Go on the web site and take a good look at Carmine, hes the one that hits the red button. Why would he be out of the office when the horses are on the track? Then he rushes in, panics and hits the button before confirming that hes looking at the right track. Which makes no sense because.....you don't already know which screen is for which track? Or, why would you be watching other tracks to begin with. NYRA only runs one at a time! Would you want umpires calling strikes they can't see? Football and baskeball refs that can't get up and down the field or court? This has been the problem with the stewards for a long time...the qualifications don't match the job description. I've been saying this for over a decade....since the Allameuse incident. Yet, we have bad calls and mistakes like this on a regular basis. Hanging around the track and working there for decades is not a good way of vetting stewards...you need sharp minds and eyes doing this job. Expect more of this until they change the system of selection.........God knows its been going on like this forever.

[usedtolovetvg]

People couldn't bet off track either.

My understanding is that once the lockout button is hit, it shuts down all wagering on that race, regardless of the location. The data coming from external sites can take some time to actually arrive in the pool. But, that is exclusive to being locked out. I also believe that the reverse is true so that the external site cannot take bets on a race exclusive to the host site. The system must be turned on by the host and that initiates wagering from all locations, although it is more technical than that.

Then again, I could be wrong.

[Mr G]

Back in the 70's when I was hitting the dogs nightly while living in southeast Florida a huge bust went down at one of the greyhound tracks....

It was the mutual department that was in charge of when to lock the tote machines ( I'm surprised in the OP's link that a steward would be in charge of cutting off betting at Saratoga...instead of the mutual department )

Anyway, I and a few others I ran with started to notice on certain races the PHOTO sign would go up when it wasn't even close to being a photo finish.....the sign would stay up for what seemed a long time even though everyone saw that the 5 dog clearly won the race, the 7 dog was clearly 2nd and the 6 dog clearly finished 3rd.....and that after it was taken down the prices would be posted and I can tell you on more then one occassion we would say things like "Damn, that tri is weak...very weak"

Well the bust was of a mutual department supervisor who was in with a couple of dirty mutual clerk employees...the supervisor had the means to open up a tote machine and the clerk would run off trifecta tickets of what crossed the finish line.....

They didn't do it every race or even every night but they got away with it for quite a long time.....and the only reason they got caught is one of the mutual clerks involved smacked around his live in girlfriend one evening while in a drunken rage and she went to the cops....she told them what he was involved in and also told them the cash he would wrap in bundles and keep it in the freezer compartment of the refigerator in their apartment.

They busted him and he in turn ratted out his supervisor as well as the other mutual clerks involved and all in all they had gotten away with over $5 Million Dollars up until that night he beat up his girlfriend.

So I wouldn't be surprised at all that such things are still going on today...maybe not the exact same scam but with the technology today who really knows who is running the machines and/or software that takes and accepts wagers from all over the country.

As for the linked story, I still find it odd that a steward, one of only 3, would be in charge of cutting off wagering instead of a mutual department supervisor.

[thaskalos]

Back in the 70's when I was hitting the dogs nightly while living in southeast Florida a huge bust went down at one of the greyhound tracks....

It was the mutual department that was in charge of when to lock the tote machines ( I'm surprised in the OP's link that a steward would be in charge of cutting off betting at Saratoga...instead of the mutual department )

Anyway, I and a few others I ran with started to notice on certain races the PHOTO sign would go up when it wasn't even close to being a photo finish.....the sign would stay up for what seemed a long time even though everyone saw that the 5 dog clearly won the race, the 7 dog was clearly 2nd and the 6 dog clearly finished 3rd.....and that after it was taken down the prices would be posted and I can tell you on more then one occassion we would say things like "Damn, that tri is weak...very weak"

Well the bust was of a mutual department supervisor who was in with a couple of dirty mutual clerk employees...the supervisor had the means to open up a tote machine and the clerk would run off trifecta tickets of what crossed the finish line.....

They didn't do it every race or even every night but they got away with it for quite a long time.....and the only reason they got caught is one of the mutual clerks involved smacked around his live in girlfriend one evening while in a drunken rage and she went to the cops....she told them what he was involved in and also told them the cash he would wrap in bundles and keep it in the freezer compartment of the refigerator in their apartment.

They busted him and he in turn ratted out his supervisor as well as the other mutual clerks involved and all in all they had gotten away with over $5 Million Dollars up until that night he beat up his girlfriend.

So I wouldn't be surprised at all that such things are still going on today...maybe not the exact same scam but with the technology today who really knows who is running the machines and/or software that takes and accepts wagers from all over the country.

As for the linked story, I still find it odd that a steward, one of only 3, would be in charge of cutting off wagering instead of a mutual department supervisor.

I've often wondered why the "photo" sign goes on after the finish of some of these races.

Now I know...:)

[Quesmark]

Ideally there's be an industrywide,standardized way,of deciding when "Post Time" actually is.Right now the board for Tampa Bay,or Cal Expo might say zero,but betting closes and the race goes off minutes later,its like "injury time"in football/soccer sort of fluid and indefinite.
If there's a necessary delay reset the clock like refs do in the NBA,or NFL.
A failsafe way,with redundancies built,in needs to be agreed upon,to lockdown the wagering pools,and prevent any real,or imagined shenanigans from going on after "they're off"....
But getting racing jurisdictions to agree and work together's like herding cats.

[Stillriledup]

Back in the 70's when I was hitting the dogs nightly while living in southeast Florida a huge bust went down at one of the greyhound tracks....

It was the mutual department that was in charge of when to lock the tote machines ( I'm surprised in the OP's link that a steward would be in charge of cutting off betting at Saratoga...instead of the mutual department )

Anyway, I and a few others I ran with started to notice on certain races the PHOTO sign would go up when it wasn't even close to being a photo finish.....the sign would stay up for what seemed a long time even though everyone saw that the 5 dog clearly won the race, the 7 dog was clearly 2nd and the 6 dog clearly finished 3rd.....and that after it was taken down the prices would be posted and I can tell you on more then one occassion we would say things like "Damn, that tri is weak...very weak"

Well the bust was of a mutual department supervisor who was in with a couple of dirty mutual clerk employees...the supervisor had the means to open up a tote machine and the clerk would run off trifecta tickets of what crossed the finish line.....

They didn't do it every race or even every night but they got away with it for quite a long time.....and the only reason they got caught is one of the mutual clerks involved smacked around his live in girlfriend one evening while in a drunken rage and she went to the cops....she told them what he was involved in and also told them the cash he would wrap in bundles and keep it in the freezer compartment of the refigerator in their apartment.

They busted him and he in turn ratted out his supervisor as well as the other mutual clerks involved and all in all they had gotten away with over $5 Million Dollars up until that night he beat up his girlfriend.

So I wouldn't be surprised at all that such things are still going on today...maybe not the exact same scam but with the technology today who really knows who is running the machines and/or software that takes and accepts wagers from all over the country.

As for the linked story, I still find it odd that a steward, one of only 3, would be in charge of cutting off wagering instead of a mutual department supervisor.

Awesome post.

Everytime i read an article about some fantastic hacking accomplishment in Wired Magazine or online, the thought that pops into my head is "haha yeah, these smart alec genius hackers can get into the US Govt or Nasa, but they can't hack the tri pools at Betfair Emerald Downs, no sir ree bob, no way any elite hacker can ever skim a few bucks off the blind pools in horse racing"

And then, after i think that, i relax knowing that nobody is past posting...after all, since the drexel boys scandal a decade ago, have you heard a peep at all about tote security at any track? I havent. That must mean everything is on the up and up and there's nothing to worry about, right?

After all, no news is good news as the old saying goes! ;)

[cj]

Ideally there's be an industrywide,standardized way,of deciding when "Post Time" actually is.Right now the board for Tampa Bay,or Cal Expo might say zero,but betting closes and the race goes off minutes later,its like "injury time"in football/soccer sort of fluid and indefinite.
If there's a necessary delay reset the clock like refs do in the NBA,or NFL.
A failsafe way,with redundancies built,in needs to be agreed upon,to lockdown the wagering pools,and prevent any real,or imagined shenanigans from going on after "they're off"....
But getting racing jurisdictions to agree and work together's like herding cats.

Hell, watch Delmar. Once the first race is over, they are rarely close to going off on time the rest of the day.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...Anyway, I and a few others I ran with started to notice on certain races the PHOTO sign would go up when it wasn't even close to being a photo finish...

Mutuels was calling for photos of the finish?

[cj]

Mutuels was calling for photos of the finish?

Obviously there was some assistance.

[Quesmark]

Hell, watch Delmar. Once the first race is over, they are rarely close to going off on time the rest of the day.
Del Mar is fashionably late....

[Pace Cap'n]

Why would any race other than Saratoga be showing on the monitor(s) in the office of a steward in charge of betting?

[rastajenk]

I wondered that too in a previous post.

But since then I've come to realize that there is probably an in-house channel that continually runs the replays, and that's probably what the steward was looking at.

[OTM Al]

I wondered that too in a previous post.

But since then I've come to realize that there is probably an in-house channel that continually runs the replays, and that's probably what the steward was looking at.

There are several in house channels at NYRA tracks. 6-8 if I am recalling correctly.

[zerosky]

This is from NY State racing wagering board concerning the stop betting signal..


Stop wagering devices.
(1) The totalisator company shall install two separate devices that activate the stop wagering function of the totalisator system in a manner consistent with stop wagering procedures approved by the board. This requirement is applicable only to a host racetrack.

(2) The primary device must be located near the stewards or racing judges, in a location approved by the board, to issue the stop wagering command during normal operations and activate the "off bell." This requirement is applicable only to a host racetrack.

(3) The secondary "back up" device must be installed in the totalisator room to allow the totalisator operator to issue the stop wagering command if a totalisator malfunction or human error prevents the totalisator system from activating the stop wagering function at the appropriate time.

(4) The totalisator company shall ensure that stop wagering occurs.

(5) The totalisator company, for good reason, may request from the board additional or alternative stop wagering devices.



link here http://www.racing.ny.gov/Sec5100.1-5100.37.php#5100.2

[KingChas]

The 3 stooges at it again.

So where were the other 2 stooges?

Nothing like flying a jumbo jet with only one person in the cockpit....huh?
Then again at least they are advanced enough to have a functional auto pilot button.

Just too add if I lost my employer $$$$$$ of dollars anytime,let alone in 2 minutes time,I would be history very quickly........of course I don't have a government job. ;)

[Stillriledup]

Why would any race other than Saratoga be showing on the monitor(s) in the office of a steward in charge of betting?

You also have to ask, why was the guy out of the room and thus, not paying attention? Wasnt his job to be IN the room and paying attention?

[rastajenk]

Stews are allowed to leave the room. Do you think they should be locked in at the start of the day?

[Tom]

Why would any race other than Saratoga be showing on the monitor(s) in the office of a steward in charge of betting?

The stewards don't bet maiden races? :rolleyes:

[Stillriledup]

Stews are allowed to leave the room. Do you think they should be locked in at the start of the day?

No, but you shouldnt be out of the room when a race is about to start. Is that too much to ask? Seems like it might be.

[rastajenk]

Look, the guy goofed up. No disputing that. But not merely because he was out of the room with two minutes to post. That is not the same as "about to start."

[Stillriledup]

Look, the guy goofed up. No disputing that. But not merely because he was out of the room with two minutes to post. That is not the same as "about to start."

Sure, there were other factors, but i think that there's plenty of time between races to take a bathroom break or stretch your legs, not a lot to ask to get back there with plenty of time to spare.

[rastajenk]

Once a troll, always a troll. Welcome back. :rolleyes:

[Tom]

If he came back with two minutes to spare, then he was back with plenty of time to spare.

btw, while you were away, they came out with some new technology.....replays. the stewards can actually watch races over and over again. Even if they miss it live.

Brave new world out there.

[PaceAdvantage]

No, but you shouldnt be out of the room when a race is about to start. Is that too much to ask? Seems like it might be.And technically, he wasn't out of the room when the race was about to start...he was in the room by 2mtp...only he had a brainfart....shit happens.