Lasix or lack there-of....maidens

[sammy the sage]

Since the B.C. 2 yr olds are running W/out this year...and then older the following year...

Starting to see lot's MORE maidens w/out...(ps...HANDICAPPING only please...morals/pros/cons...start a different thread)...

Yet many are still running W/1st time out...

Has anybody noticed or is it too early to tell any advantages realized w/those running W/ vs those w/out...

I'm thinking those trainer's whose owner's are insisting on running w/out...%'s might drop a bit...

Thoughts...

[Tom]

This is one of the stupidest ideas racing has ever come up with, and they have come up some dozies.

Lasix some races,not others?????
This sets racing back to the old days when hot horses would regularly ship into a non-lasix jurisdiction and take a boatload of money down the tubes when they ran up the track.

No respect for the bettors whatsoever.
Why should we respect the game?

[sammy the sage]

This is one of the stupidest ideas racing has ever come up with, and they have come up some dozies.

Lasix some races,not others?????
This sets racing back to the old days when hot horses would regularly ship into a non-lasix jurisdiction and take a boatload of money down the tubes when they ran up the track.

No respect for the bettors whatsoever.
Why should we respect the game?

That SURE didn't take long :rolleyes:

And now...what about the ACTUAL discussion suggested :bang:

[Robert Fischer]

I wouldn't factor it in right now.

Come BC, when there are 2yos coming off of of Lasix, then it becomes a possible consideration.

[Tom]

That SURE didn't take long :rolleyes:

And now...what about the ACTUAL discussion suggested :bang:

Did you read what I just said?
It will make guessing form a crap shoot.
Duh.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Did you read what I just said?
It will make guessing form a crap shoot.
Duh.

I thought your response was right on point, and I totally agree w/ you. If they want to slowly phase out Lasix (I oppose it), they could start with ALL two-yr-old races, not just the big one at the end of the yr.

[lamboguy]

I thought your response was right on point, and I totally agree w/ you. If they want to slowly phase out Lasix (I oppose it), they could start with ALL two-yr-old races, not just the big one at the end of the yr.
second that! LASSIX SUCKS

[cj]

I thought your response was right on point, and I totally agree w/ you. If they want to slowly phase out Lasix (I oppose it), they could start with ALL two-yr-old races, not just the big one at the end of the yr.

I agree too.

For now, those not using it are putting themselves at a disadvantage.

[Tom]

What pissed me off is that those holier than thou know-it-all owners who are advocating no lasix still use it themselves. Why is that, boys?

[PhantomOnTour]

The funny thing is that you probably can't even get your 2yo qualified for the BrCup without running on lasix, but when you get there you can't use it.

[Dahoss9698]

What pissed me off is that those holier than thou know-it-all owners who are advocating no lasix still use it themselves. Why is that, boys?

Good question actually.

So Lamboguy, are your 2 year olds racing on lasix?

[jorcus99]

I think It's a little early to tell but you have to remember what Lasix is for. It's anti bleeding medication. Some horses bleed more than others. Many horses that run on it may not need it but it is preventative. Going back to the days before Lasix you would see horses suddenly stop running because they were bleeding badly. If lasix was added next time out horses would often not bleed and go on to run well. If you can not use Lasix and you have a horse that bleeds you have to restrict it's intake of water before a race to simulate the effects of lasix. A good trainer may know how to do it a bad trainer may not. It's tricky and can be dangerous to the horse.

Keep an eye out for horses that are not running on lasix and stop suddenly then add it the next race. One of the best angles in racing. Beware of strong contenders racing without it. Also remember hot days in polluted areas tend to make bleeding worse.

Since the B.C. 2 yr olds are running W/out this year...and then older the following year...

Starting to see lot's MORE maidens w/out...(ps...HANDICAPPING only please...morals/pros/cons...start a different thread)...

Yet many are still running W/1st time out...

Has anybody noticed or is it too early to tell any advantages realized w/those running W/ vs those w/out...

I'm thinking those trainer's whose owner's are insisting on running w/out...%'s might drop a bit...

Thoughts...

[lamboguy]

Good question actually.

So Lamboguy, are your 2 year olds racing on lasix?
the guy that owns the horses of the ones i manage wants all his horse on it. i have 4 of my own that have come out this year, one of them was on 1 cc of lassix and bled through it and will get more. the other 3 don't need it now. of my 4 i haven't finished 1-2-3 yet out of 6 starts. but i don't think its because of no-lassix. 2 of them have injuries, one of them is very immature, and the other one was not trained right, she works in 47 with fractions of 22 and 25. you can't win with fractions like that anywhere on this planet. she just worked in 103 with fractions of 27 and last 3/8's in 36 1/5. its a good step in the right direction.

[Dahoss9698]

the guy that owns the horses of the ones i manage wants all his horse on it. i have 4 of my own that have come out this year, one of them was on 1 cc of lassix and bled through it and will get more. the other 3 don't need it now. of my 4 i haven't finished 1-2-3 yet out of 6 starts. but i don't think its because of no-lassix. 2 of them have injuries, one of them is very immature, and the other one was not trained right, she works in 47 with fractions of 22 and 25. you can't win with fractions like that anywhere on this planet. she just worked in 103 with fractions of 27 and last 3/8's in 36 1/5. its a good step in the right direction.

So yes? Lasix sucks, but your horses need it, so you use it.

Makes perfect sense.

[lamboguy]

its not cut and dry where the benefits out way the side effects of lasix. some horses have bad reactions to the use of the stuff. a horse can dehydrate on the stuff on very hot days, and it tinkers with the blood pressure levels of the horse.

if a human has an infection, he takes penicllin to help fight it. that person is better off never having the infection to begin with, and when he takes to much dose of that drug he can become immune to it in time. if a horse doesn't bleed there is really no good reason for the use of lasix other than to keep the fluid out of the lungs. but the lungs need some fluid to work properly. there are also problems with improper administration of lasix that could cause the horse to have shortness of breath. later on down the road there are risks of liver and kidney disease attributed directly to over use of lasix in the animal's system.

[Dahoss9698]

I realize it's not cut and dry. But you're always on your soapbox about how much you oppose lasix....yet your horses all seem to run on it.

Sort of a confusing (no pun intended) message you are sending out there.

[PhantomOnTour]

I thought your response was right on point, and I totally agree w/ you. If they want to slowly phase out Lasix (I oppose it), they could start with ALL two-yr-old races, not just the big one at the end of the yr.
That would require states getting together and agreeing on a uniform policy...never.

[sammy the sage]

ok...children's...back ON topic...guess a little guidance is needed... :rolleyes:

Answer the following..

Lasix is a powerful diuretic...an that helps a horse how?

Do ya'll actually believe they give Lasix just FOR bleeding...yes or no?

Perhaps that will get the discussion BACK on point...handicapping Lasix

The politics and pros and cons there-of....start another thread :faint:

[magwell]

Hows this working out ? two big favorites yesterday at Saratoga 2nd and 6th race no lasix both stopped like they bled.... 2 yr olds ......

[turninforhome10]

My question is this.
Has Lasix use affected the genetics of the horse after being used for 30+ years?

Also found a very nice paper written by Dr Sheila Lyons for NYRA.
www.cleanhorseracing.org/pdfs/Sheila%20Lyons%20DVM.pdf

[Saratoga_Mike]

ok...children's...back ON topic...guess a little guidance is needed... :rolleyes:

Answer the following..

Lasix is a powerful diuretic...an that helps a horse how?

Do ya'll actually believe they give Lasix just FOR bleeding...yes or no?

Perhaps that will get the discussion BACK on point...handicapping Lasix

The politics and pros and cons there-of....start another thread :faint:

Back on-topic? Your questions don't make sense. First, you want the focus on handicapping. Now you want to debate the merits of using Lasix. Which is it? You mentioned the BC ban in your thread starter. Several of us said it was dumb to ban Lasix in the biggest event of the yr for 2 yr olds, while it is allowed the rest of the time. The move makes the BC race a guessing game from a handicapping standpt. Am I on-topic?

[sammy the sage]

Back on-topic? Your questions don't make sense. First, you want the focus on handicapping. Now you want to debate the merits of using Lasix. Which is it? You mentioned the BC ban in your thread starter. Several of us said it was dumb to ban Lasix in the biggest event of the yr for 2 yr olds, while it is allowed the rest of the time. The move makes the BC race a guessing game from a handicapping standpt. Am I on-topic?

I did not nor NEVER mentioned or IMPLIED about THE merits of Lasix...nor do I care...

so in answer too your question...NO...

It's a GIVEN that the BC becomes a quessing game...j/geez

I'm writing about the day to day handicapping...

[johnhannibalsmith]

I did not nor NEVER mentioned or IMPLIED about THE merits of Lasix...nor do I care...



Answer the following..

Lasix is a powerful diuretic...an that helps a horse how?

Do ya'll actually believe they give Lasix just FOR bleeding...yes or no?

I'm TRYING to play/read along here... but I'm getting a LITTLE confused.

[Tom]

Say goodnight, Dick.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I did not nor NEVER mentioned or IMPLIED about THE merits of Lasix...nor do I care...

so in answer too your question...NO...

It's a GIVEN that the BC becomes a quessing game...j/geez

I'm writing about the day to day handicapping...

Oh, now it's perfectly clear to me - sorry for the confusion.

[LRL Racing]

I am in favor of lasix because when these poor horses bleed what is gonna happen to them. Statistics say like 75% of all horses bleed at some point in their career. I know as an owner there have been a few who would never have had a racing career and that is what they are bred to want to do. The dust around a racetrack is horrendous and this stuff gets in their lungs and they get infections. Don't really know why everyone is against the medication as long as it is not overdosed or too close to raceday.

[tbwinner]

I am in favor of lasix because when these poor horses bleed what is gonna happen to them. Statistics say like 75% of all horses bleed at some point in their career. I know as an owner there have been a few who would never have had a racing career and that is what they are bred to want to do. The dust around a racetrack is horrendous and this stuff gets in their lungs and they get infections. Don't really know why everyone is against the medication as long as it is not overdosed or too close to raceday.


Agree, and as an owner, my horses have raced on Lasix most throughout their careers.

MOST horses are indeed bleeders. Some even bleed through Lasix and require alternative and additional remedies to help with them (extra vitamin/electrolyte supplements, etc). Lasix is a LEGAL drug and it's benefits far outweigh the negatives, as demonstrated many times. One of my trainers believes in running ALL her horses on Lasix because of the possibility of bleeding, and believes that if they do bleed it not only affects their in-race performance but future performance as well due to mental effects. If you were a horse, do you think you'd perform as well as you could be with legal medications if you were bleeding in your lungs and even out of your nose?

Really the racing industry is doing something really stupid. They are attacking a drug whose benefits are extremely helpful. Do some trainers over-use Lasix? Yes...some trainers use Lasix in EVERY workout. But really the deal should be attacking ILLEGAL DRUGS and DRUG OVERAGES, and strengthening penalties for such.

[cj]

Don't really know why everyone is against the medication as long as it is not overdosed or too close to raceday.

Too close to raceday? It is given on raceday, that is the problem. My opinion is it is being abused. Only 20 years ago, few horses ever were given lasix until they visibly bled in a race. Now, nearly every horse gets it before they even compete in a race.

[Show Me the Wire]

Horses investment is costlier today. Lasix is a preventative measure to protect lung tissue and thus protect the investment.

[cj]

Horses investment is costlier today. Lasix is a preventative measure to protect lung tissue and thus protect the investment.

And yet amazingly, without it, horses had longer careers and many more starts per year as well. What exactly is it preventing besides full fields?

[Show Me the Wire]

I don't believe that is necessarily true. There are many other factors invloved, like year round racing, over breeding, too many state breeding programs, etc.

One thing is true, bleeding destroys lung tissue,which can never regenerate, a horse that cannot breathe causes a loss of investment.

[cj]

I don't believe that is necessarily true. There are many other factors invloved, like year round racing, over breeding, too many state breeding programs, etc.

One thing is true, bleeding destroys lung tissue,which can never regenerate, a horse that cannot breathe causes a loss of investment.

There are certainly many factors.

However, why didn't horses degenerate 20 years ago without Lasix while racing more often? Do you realize that Lasix doesn't even prevent EIPH in many cases?

[magwell]

I said this before and I'll say it again .....not using lasix until the horse bleeds is like not wearing a seat belt until after you have a accident and go through the windshield.....then use the seat belt. no other way to explain it. What dont people understand about this....:bang:

[Show Me the Wire]

Correlation does not equal causation. Magwell summed it up very well

[cj]

I said this before and I'll say it again .....not using lasix until the horse bleeds is like not wearing a seat belt until after you have a accident and go through the windshield.....then use the seat belt. no other way to explain it. What dont people understand about this....:bang:

What we don't understand is how most of the horse racing world doesn't need it and no horses are going through the windshield. Lasix is a crutch that doesn't even do what it is supposed to do in many cases.

[cj]

Correlation does not equal causation. Magwell summed it up very well

Looks like more horseman drivel to me.

[Show Me the Wire]

Different type of racing and demands concerning the animal.

[cj]

Different type of racing and demands concerning the animal.

Sorry, I just have a hard time believing that. I've been around long enough that I remember all the "reasons" horsemen gave that Lasix was needed. The promise was horses would be healthier and race more often. There would be bigger fields of more consistent horses. It wasn't bettors campaigning for Lasix use.

Not surprisingly, they were wrong in every respect. Why should I believe them now?

[magwell]

What we don't understand is how most of the horse racing world doesn't need it and no horses are going through the windshield. Lasix is a crutch that doesn't even do what it is supposed to do in many cases. Sorry... you just don't get it, and when you say horses don't go through windshields.... that proves it. :(

[cj]

Sorry... you just don't get it, and when you say horses don't go through windshields.... that proves it. :(
I'm not the one wearing blinkers here. Do you deny that Lasix doesn't even work many times?

[magwell]

I'm not the one wearing blinkers here. Do you deny that Lasix doesn't even work many times? Blinkers ? thats funny they are used to focus, something your not doing. yes it may not work all the time but seat belts don't either you don't get it man.... and if you do, you wont admit it ......PLEASE let it go.... your in over your head here, stick to your handicapping which I admit you have a good opinion of......

[cj]

Blinkers ? thats funny they are used to focus, something your not doing. yes it may not work all the time but seat belts don't either you don't get it man.... and if you do, you wont admit it ......PLEASE let it go.... your in over your head here, stick to your handicapping which I admit you have a good opinion of......

Drug them all. That is a great way to run a sport. The meteoric rise of the sport since Lasix has been injected in 98% of the horses running has been meteoric. What was I thinking?

[Striker]

Agree, and as an owner, my horses have raced on Lasix most throughout their careers.

MOST horses are indeed bleeders. Some even bleed through Lasix and require alternative and additional remedies to help with them (extra vitamin/electrolyte supplements, etc). Lasix is a LEGAL drug and it's benefits far outweigh the negatives, as demonstrated many times.

Should horses that bleed through lasix most/all of the time, and need all this extra help with the remedies listed above, even continue racing at all though?

[PaceAdvantage]

Drug them all. That is a great way to run a sport. The meteoric rise of the sport since Lasix has been injected in 98% of the horses running has been meteoric. What was I thinking?Don't you get it man? You're a cold-hearted horse player who relies on reducing horses to numbers. You'll never understand the bleeding heart (pun intended) of those who are looking to protect these mighty steeds from physical ailment.

Don't you dare come at them with logic and fact, like the history of horses in the immediate pre-Lasix days, the visions that never materialized of a rebirth of the racing game once all the horses were free to run on Lasix, etc. etc.

You've probably never even touched a horse in person, have you cj? You've never mucked a stall, or picked out a foot. You've never looked one in the eye who was just begging for that 5cc shot pre-race and knew you had to deny your charge this elixir because of silly laws passed for some perceived benefit to that lowest form of life - the horse bettor.

How dare you, sir!

[cj]

Don't you get it man? You're a cold-hearted horse player who relies on reducing horses to numbers. You'll never understand the bleeding heart (pun intended) of those who are looking to protect these mighty steeds from physical ailment.

Don't you dare come at them with logic and fact, like the history of horses in the immediate pre-Lasix days, the visions that never materialized of a rebirth of the racing game once all the horses were free to run on Lasix, etc. etc.

You've probably never even touched a horse in person, have you cj? You've never mucked a stall, or picked out a foot. You've never looked one in the eye who was just begging for that 5cc shot pre-race and knew you had to deny your charge this elixir because of silly laws passed for some perceived benefit to that lowest form of life - the horse bettor.

How dare you, sir!

I'm still trying to figure out how some of our great horses were able to endure the trip to Dubai and race without Lasix. Amazingly, they were very successful on dirt in those very tough races and lived to race another day.

[PaceAdvantage]

All kidding aside, I can't see how horsemen would be in favor of using Lasix as a prophylactic instead of waiting to have the horse PROVE he needs it...

In the long run, this is what is best for the breed...in fact, what would be best for the breed would be to weed out bleeders as much as possible to begin with, so a complete and total ban on Lasix might be harsh in the short term, but would be much beneficial to the breed in the long term.

You ban Lasix. Bleeders can't run. Bleeders can't win. Bleeders won't be desirable as a stud prospect.

[pondman]

In the long run, this is what is best for the breed...in fact, what would be best for the breed would be to weed out bleeders as much as possible to begin with, so a complete and total ban on Lasix might be harsh in the short term, but would be much beneficial to the breed in the long term.
.

Irrational philosophy. Bad science-- the same scientific claims made by the confederacy. If you are a proponent at least come up with good reasons: 1 masking 2 jockeys use the stuff. If you ban lasix, it will increase the cost of traing, and decrease the number of horses.

It's a good solution for a common problem. I'd stay away from betting 2 year olds if lasix were banned in the U.S.

[cj]

Irrational philosophy. Bad science-- the same scientific claims made by the confederacy. If you are a proponent at least come up with good reasons: 1 masking 2 jockeys use the stuff. If you ban lasix, it will increase the cost of traing, and decrease the number of horses.

It's a good solution for a common problem. I'd stay away from betting 2 year olds if lasix were banned in the U.S.

I ask again, why should we believe anything horsemen say about needing lasix? Every single thing they said when lobbying to have it legalized has turned out to be blatantly false.

[cj]

All kidding aside, I can't see how horsemen would be in favor of using Lasix as a prophylactic instead of waiting to have the horse PROVE he needs it...


There is actually a logical reason to this. We all know there are horses that absolutely need Lasix or they can't race. These horses are the reason that it was allowed in the first place. What happened though is people realized rather quickly that not only did it help curtail (sometimes) bleeding, it enhances performance in thoroughbreds. Other horsemen quickly realized they were at a disadvantage, and started wrangling to get their horses on "the juice" as quickly and easily as possible. That his how we got where we are today. Almost every horses begins its career on drugs in its first race. Anybody that believes all of these horses have bled are kidding themselves.

Check out the chart for the BC Classic in 1994...the first 6 finishers raced with Lasix, the next 8 did not. Trainers woke up. The next year, 1995, every runner but one of the 11 had it. The next year 12 of 14 had lasix, and one of those without was a Japanese shipper. By 1997 every Classic starter was injected.

[PaceAdvantage]

All kidding aside, I can't see how horsemen would be in favor of using Lasix as a prophylactic instead of waiting to have the horse PROVE he needs it...In retrospect, this was a dumb thing to say, even for me. :lol:

Of course I can see why trainers would want to use Lasix as a preventative. I don't know what idiot took over my keyboard when I typed that.

[proximity]

horsemen need lassix to mask the beattiezine, nessabol, and d-connorbuterol so they can keep running for those second place purses. next thing we know cj is going to want them to produce voter id cards to vote in hbpa elections!!

[cj]

In retrospect, this was a dumb thing to say, even for me. :lol:

Of course I can see why trainers would want to use Lasix as a preventative. I don't know what idiot took over my keyboard when I typed that.

The newer trainers don't even know why they use it. It is all they know.

[castaway01]

Blinkers ? thats funny they are used to focus, something your not doing. yes it may not work all the time but seat belts don't either you don't get it man.... and if you do, you wont admit it ......PLEASE let it go.... your in over your head here, stick to your handicapping which I admit you have a good opinion of......

Seat belts are a poor analogy though---they help limit injury to your body if you are in an accident but don't change your lung capacity or heart rate. They are not the same as taking a drug. A better comparison would be that my blood pressure is 110/80 but I'm going to get on blood pressure meds today because I might have high blood pressure someday. It's time for your "drug them all whether they need it or not" philosophy to become outdated because it's ruining the breed. Even if there are some logical reasons why you'd want to use Lasix in healthy horses (mostly nefarious reasons, unfortunately), you can see how to an outside observer that drugging healthy horses "just in case" would sound ridiculous. Yet that's what we've been doing for a long time now in this country, with way too many drugs.

[turninforhome10]

All kidding aside, I can't see how horsemen would be in favor of using Lasix as a prophylactic instead of waiting to have the horse PROVE he needs it...

In the long run, this is what is best for the breed...in fact, what would be best for the breed would be to weed out bleeders as much as possible to begin with, so a complete and total ban on Lasix might be harsh in the short term, but would be much beneficial to the breed in the long term.

You ban Lasix. Bleeders can't run. Bleeders can't win. Bleeders won't be desirable as a stud prospect.
That is the very point that will help the sport turn around. Weed out the bleeders.EIPH is passed
http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/63571/study-eiph-is-an-inherited-trait.
Alas be very careful in this aspect. The amount of foals is already dwindling due to economic reasons. If you weed out the bleeders, racing better be ready to drop about half of it race meets. You could see less than 15k foals born and that number would drop until racing gets comfortable again. It would really help the horses genetics, but racing won't look the same.
Wonder if the term "bleeder" attached to a mare at a sale will start to be announced like "cribber". Rather have a beaver than a bleeder, in the big picture.

[cj]

They are not the same as taking a drug. A better comparison would be that my blood pressure is 110/80 but I'm going to get on blood pressure meds today because I might have high blood pressure someday. It's time for your "drug them all whether they need it or not" philosophy to become outdated because it's ruining the breed. Even if there are some logical reasons why you'd want to use Lasix in healthy horses (mostly nefarious reasons, unfortunately), you can see how to an outside observer that drugging healthy horses "just in case" would sound ridiculous. Yet that's what we've been doing for a long time now in this country, with way too many drugs.

Somebody gets it.

[turninforhome10]

In retrospect, this was a dumb thing to say, even for me. :lol:

Of course I can see why trainers would want to use Lasix as a preventative. I don't know what idiot took over my keyboard when I typed that.

Why was this dumb? I like what you said. That is what it was intended for.

Every horse has the potential for bleeding, we have done little or nothing to identify markers that might indicate a potential for bleeding using genetics.
The only indicator being used now is they have hooves and a mane. They could bleed, better get lasix..
I am guilty. I have put first time starters on lasix just to get an edge, not because the horse showed any signs of future problems. I have also taken horses off lasix and done well with them.
The big problem I see, is the lack of trainers and owners campaigning their horses. Nowadays you do your best to patch them together to squeeze out every nickels worth of their conditions. IMHO The economics of the condition book is the main reason for all the drugs and shadiness. Instead of resting the horse, you hop em and drop em as there is another slot infused purse waiting somewhere. Gone are the days of horse ever actually going back to farm and rest. When I first moved to Pennsylvania, I advertised my farm as a spa for layup horses. It was a very serene place in a quiet little valley and the horses thrived there. Every horse that layed-up there won within 2 starts back. (May God strike me dead, if I' lying). When I decided to branch out and looked for more customers at Penn National, most trainers laughed. "They don't lay up", "they go to New Holland"(slaughter sale). This mentality is my major reason for everything in racing being so screwed up. Nobody owns the horse, you just borrow them for their conditions and discard them when they are no longer useful for purses, either in the claim box or slaughter sale.
And I can say that every horse I have ever run that was mine got a permanent home after the races and most if not all, I can go and see today.

[magwell]

Seat belts are a poor analogy though---they help limit injury to your body if you are in an accident but don't change your lung capacity or heart rate. They are not the same as taking a drug. A better comparison would be that my blood pressure is 110/80 but I'm going to get on blood pressure meds today because I might have high blood pressure someday. It's time for your "drug them all whether they need it or not" philosophy to become outdated because it's ruining the breed. Even if there are some logical reasons why you'd want to use Lasix in healthy horses (mostly nefarious reasons, unfortunately), you can see how to an outside observer that drugging healthy horses "just in case" would sound ridiculous. Yet that's what we've been doing for a long time now in this country, with way too many drugs. The analogy makes perfect sense was not talking about lungs or heart rate only as a preventative of possible damage,you guys just don't get it... and seems you never will until you actually see these horses stop running and come back with blood coming out of their nostril's. I guess you don't know horses cant breath through their mouth like people can when their nose is full of blood ...:bang:

[sammy the sage]

Guess Blinker's don't work on humans either :lol:

This thread is a CLASSIC example :rolleyes:

So much for THE handicapping aspect discussion that the O.P. wanted :faint:

[Dahoss9698]

Guess Blinker's don't work on humans either :lol:

This thread is a CLASSIC example :rolleyes:

So much for THE handicapping aspect discussion that the O.P. wanted :faint:

Don't take THIS the wrong way :eek: , but I NEVER know what YOU are saying because your posts look like hieroglyphics :ThmbUp: with the emoticons, random BOLDED words and they are just plain confusing.

[cj]

The analogy makes perfect sense was not talking about lungs or heart rate only as a preventative of possible damage,you guys just don't get it... and seems you never will until you actually see these horses stop running and come back with blood coming out of their nostril's. I guess you don't know horses cant breath through their mouth like people can when their nose is full of blood ...:bang:

Yes, because none of us have ever seen that. Don't be ridiculous. You act like everyone that posts here has never been to a track, let alone been close to a horse or even, heaven forbid, mucked a stall or bathed a horse.

What you don't get, and never will, is this game exists for gambling. People are leaving in droves. People don't want to wager on a contest where virtually every contestant is stuck with a needle. How do you break that down to a newcomer? Sure, there is a lot worse stuff being injected than Lasix, but it is a start. Absolutely nothing good has happened in this sport as its use has spread. Coincidence? I doubt it. I'm not saying it is the only reason, but it is one of them.

[castaway01]

The analogy makes perfect sense was not talking about lungs or heart rate only as a preventative of possible damage,you guys just don't get it... and seems you never will until you actually see these horses stop running and come back with blood coming out of their nostril's. I guess you don't know horses cant breath through their mouth like people can when their nose is full of blood ...:bang:

Silly point, though sweet how you try to act like we want horses to bleed all over the track just because we don't want them unnecessarily drugged. If the horse has blood streaming out of its nostrils from racing, perhaps it either 1) should be on Lasix, which may or may not help, or 2) shouldn't be racing. You're bringing up the guy having a heart attack, I'm talking about the healthy guy being drugged.

[magwell]

Silly point, though sweet how you try to act like we want horses to bleed all over the track just because we don't want them unnecessarily drugged. If the horse has blood streaming out of its nostrils from racing, perhaps it either 1) should be on Lasix, which may or may not help, or 2) shouldn't be racing. You're bringing up the guy having a heart attack, I'm talking about the healthy guy being drugged. WHAT ?? silly and sweet ? me bringing up a guy having a heart attack ?? who are you responding to ? best you take a break......:eek:

[johnhannibalsmith]

... I'm talking about the healthy guy being drugged.

I kind of agree with your point (I'm a bit torn overall on this one), but we do actually vaccinate the healthy if we want to dissect the analogy... :D ... and there are those that will draw a parallel between the intent behind "adaptive immunity" and proactive use of medication that remedies a potential problem that becomes increasingly difficult to remedy once it has actually happened.

[LRL Racing]

Too close to raceday? It is given on raceday, that is the problem. My opinion is it is being abused. Only 20 years ago, few horses ever were given lasix until they visibly bled in a race. Now, nearly every horse gets it before they even compete in a race.

State laws vary on administering lasix.

[LRL Racing]

Should horses that bleed through lasix most/all of the time, and need all this extra help with the remedies listed above, even continue racing at all though?

When you have several thousand dollars invested in a racehorse and your trainer tells you they bled through the lasix you know there are limited options ahead other than retire the animal as I do not want to be abusive. Some people probably need the money more and may continue with them.

[LRL Racing]

All kidding aside, I can't see how horsemen would be in favor of using Lasix as a prophylactic instead of waiting to have the horse PROVE he needs it...

In the long run, this is what is best for the breed...in fact, what would be best for the breed would be to weed out bleeders as much as possible to begin with, so a complete and total ban on Lasix might be harsh in the short term, but would be much beneficial to the breed in the long term.

You ban Lasix. Bleeders can't run. Bleeders can't win. Bleeders won't be desirable as a stud prospect.

While this is happening there will be less races because of a horse shortage, owner shortage, etc...As an owner there are so many perils along the way to getting a horse to a race and you almost have to be crazy to be in the business but to now say your horse can't be on lasix which may prevent her from bleeding and then she bleeds on some 104 degree day when she had to run a 1:10 3/4 and you tell me she's done.

[cj]

State laws vary on administering lasix.

I know they vary, and I know it takes very little to get Lasix.

[LRL Racing]

The analogy makes perfect sense was not talking about lungs or heart rate only as a preventative of possible damage,you guys just don't get it... and seems you never will until you actually see these horses stop running and come back with blood coming out of their nostril's. I guess you don't know horses cant breath through their mouth like people can when their nose is full of blood ...:bang:

I am confident they don't. Please read this quote again. Imagine bleeding through your nose profusely and you can't breath through your mouth so you HAVE to bleed through your nose!!! Is that humane? Cleaning up a sport?

[LRL Racing]

I know they vary, and I know it takes very little to get Lasix.

What do you mean it takes very little to get Lasix?

[cj]

I am confident they don't. Please read this quote again. Imagine bleeding through your nose profusely and you can't breath through your mouth so you HAVE to bleed through your nose!!! Is that humane? Cleaning up a sport?

How did the sport survive for a hundred years without it, and why doesn't Europe or Japan or Hong Kong or Australia seem to need it?

It would be one thing if Lasix was guaranteed to work, but it is FAR from that.

[cj]

What do you mean it takes very little to get Lasix?

I mean it is very easy to get it for a horse, even those that haven't run. Even given that, lets not pretend all rules are followed in this area. If somebody wants his horse on Lasix, the horse gets it. You never hear a trainer debuting a horse without Lasix say they couldn't get it. In those rare instances, they choose not to get it.

[PaceAdvantage]

While this is happening there will be less races because of a horse shortage, owner shortage, etc...As an owner there are so many perils along the way to getting a horse to a race and you almost have to be crazy to be in the business but to now say your horse can't be on lasix which may prevent her from bleeding and then she bleeds on some 104 degree day when she had to run a 1:10 3/4 and you tell me she's done.All the problems you cite existed before Lasix. Hot days. Horses that bleed. Yet the game didn't shrivel up and die a quick death.

I don't mean to be flippant and I respect where you're coming from. It's tough to get rid of something that has become so entrenched in the trainer/vet arsenal.

Can we at least go back to actually having to have a horse bleed before they are allowed to go on Lasix? In some jurisdictions (maybe all by now), it's ridiculously easy to get your horse certified, and no bleeding is necessary for all intents and purposes.

[Striker]

When you have several thousand dollars invested in a racehorse and your trainer tells you they bled through the lasix you know there are limited options ahead other than retire the animal as I do not want to be abusive. Some people probably need the money more and may continue with them.
But what is the correlation to these horses(extreme bleeders) winning even the lowest level claimers from time to time, yet even getting a decent check for the connections? It can't be very good.

[LRL Racing]

All I can tell you is that I have horses that have bled and we used lasix but personally it seems to me that after one of mine bleed they usually don't improve much or their performance drops. Of course if Lasix is taken away the sport will continue and we will continue to run.

From an owner's perspective I just hate to buy a yearling, spend $50,000 in training expenses and the horse bleeds and tuff luck Mike.

All the problems you cite existed before Lasix. Hot days. Horses that bleed. Yet the game didn't shrivel up and die a quick death.

I don't mean to be flippant and I respect where you're coming from. It's tough to get rid of something that has become so entrenched in the trainer/vet arsenal.

Can we at least go back to actually having to have a horse bleed before they are allowed to go on Lasix? In some jurisdictions (maybe all by now), it's ridiculously easy to get your horse certified, and no bleeding is necessary for all intents and purposes.

[LRL Racing]

But what is the correlation to these horses(extreme bleeders) winning even the lowest level claimers from time to time, yet even getting a decent check for the connections? It can't be very good.

I am not talking about extreme bleeders although some are running at low level claiming tracks. My trainer nor myself would run an extreme bleeder. Are there people who do? Yes.

[LRL Racing]

I mean it is very easy to get it for a horse, even those that haven't run. Even given that, lets not pretend all rules are followed in this area. If somebody wants his horse on Lasix, the horse gets it. You never hear a trainer debuting a horse without Lasix say they couldn't get it. In those rare instances, they choose not to get it.

Why do you want a horse to bleed? Ever? I do not like my horses to EVER bleed. I am attached to them and feel very sorry for them when they do bleed.

[cj]

From an owner's perspective I just hate to buy a yearling, spend $50,000 in training expenses and the horse bleeds and tuff luck Mike.

It isn't a cure all, and clearly there are other ways to try to curtail bleeding that don't involve a drug injection.

[LRL Racing]

It isn't a cure all, and clearly there are other ways to try to curtail bleeding that don't involve a drug injection.

And what would that be? Please tell me.

[cj]

Why do you want a horse to bleed? Ever? I do not like my horses to EVER bleed. I am attached to them and feel very sorry for them when they do bleed.

Who says I want them to bleed? You are acting like bleeding is similar to a breakdown. Horses recover from it all the time, and many thrive in the future. What I want is drugs out of the sport.

[cj]

And what would that be? Please tell me.

I'll keep it simple. Whatever the rest of the world does to keep horses from bleeding. You can research it as well as I can.

[LRL Racing]

I'll keep it simple. Whatever the rest of the world does to keep horses from bleeding. You can research it as well as I can.

Keep it simple. You are an idiot.

[LRL Racing]

Read the article written today for a better perspective. If someone could post it that would be nice.

[PaceAdvantage]

Keep it simple. You are an idiot.Way to stay classy.

BTW, have you ever heard of limiting water intake on race day? Of course, this might lead to other problems on hot and humid days.

[LRL Racing]

Who says I want them to bleed? You are acting like bleeding is similar to a breakdown. Horses recover from it all the time, and many thrive in the future. What I want is drugs out of the sport.

Why do you think that there are all these Drugs in the sport???? I mean they test the shit out of my horses!!! When they run good, bad or random..

[PaceAdvantage]

Why do you think that there are all these Drugs in the sport????Wait. You read the New York Times and yet you ask this question?

If there aren't all these drugs in the sport, how are some trainers winning at a 40% clip? Enlighten me.

[LRL Racing]

Way to stay classy.

BTW, have you ever heard of limiting water intake on race day? Of course, this might lead to other problems on hot and humid days.

Yes and Yes.

You would like for a horse's bladder empty for optimum performance. My trainer once told me several years ago he had never lost a race when the horse pee'd in the paddock. She didn't pee that day although I would have massaged her if I thought it would work. My trainer and his team whistle.

[PaceAdvantage]

Yes and Yes.

You would like for a horse's bladder empty for optimum performance. My trainer once told me several years ago he had never lost a race when the horse pee'd in the paddock. She didn't pee that day although I would have massaged her if I thought it would work. My trainer and his team whistle.Restricting water on race day is also a way to try and prevent bleeding.

BTW, how common is it for a horse to bleed during race? Enough such that it affects performance? Obviously, this question only applies to horses not on Lasix. Tough to do such a study nowadays, but one must have been done during the days of controversy as New York was trying to figure out whether to end its reign as the last holdout among the Lasix states.

[LRL Racing]

Wait. You read the New York Times and yet you ask this question?

If there aren't all these drugs in the sport, how are some trainers winning at a 40% clip? Enlighten me.

I can't say that there are not trainers who are using medications they shouldn't. I just don't think the answer is to ban lasix. In other words punish the majority because of a few. The American way.

I need to look at the article again as I thought the writer expressed that it was in the best interest of the horse.

[PaceAdvantage]

Way to stay classy.BTW, calling a moderator of this board an idiot tends to get you booted off of here. Not that you care.

I'm just saying...

[LRL Racing]

Restricting water on race day is also a way to try and prevent bleeding.

BTW, how common is it for a horse to bleed during race? Enough such that it affects performance? Obviously, this question only applies to horses not on Lasix. Tough to do such a study nowadays, but one must have been done during the days of controversy as New York was trying to figure out whether to end its reign as the last holdout among the Lasix states.

Typically I have not seen a major problem. Out of the 30 horses I have owned one was bad for two races in a row and my trainer stopped on her. Found out later that her mother was a bad bleeder. Have had four or five more that increased dosages of lasix stopped the bleeding as well as rest, infections. Found out her mother was a bad bleeder. If stewards see a horse bleeding on the track they are on vet's list for 30 days. As you state it is hard to say because my horses are typically on lasix first start.

[LRL Racing]

BTW, calling a moderator of this board an idiot tends to get you booted off of here. Not that you care.

I'm just saying...

Who is the moderator I thought that was you not cj?

[PaceAdvantage]

Who is the moderator I thought that was you not cj?cj and BillW are both moderators, along with myself.

He made a point that you keep evading. How does the rest of the world get by with no raceday Lasix?

Not sure why he deserved to be called an idiot. Maybe you can expand on that for a moment.

[LRL Racing]

BTW, calling a moderator of this board an idiot tends to get you booted off of here. Not that you care.

I'm just saying...

Oh. So CJ is a moderator?

[LRL Racing]

cj and BillW are both moderators, along with myself.

He made a point that you keep evading. How does the rest of the world get by with no raceday Lasix?

Not sure why he deserved to be called an idiot. Maybe you can expand on that for a moment.

He said keep it simple and it isn't in my opinion. I took his comment offensively and stated my thoughts. And you are right I don't care.

I can't tell you how the rest of the world gets by with it. I am not evading just don't know the answer. Know that horses will bled more without lasix and that is all I know.

[LRL Racing]

He said keep it simple and it isn't in my opinion. I took his comment offensively and stated my thoughts. And you are right I don't care.

I can't tell you how the rest of the world gets by with it. I am not evading just don't know the answer. Know that horses will bled more without lasix and that is all I know.

However you are 100% correct that I should be kicked off. In fact I will ban myself.

[PaceAdvantage]

However you are 100% correct that I should be kicked off. In fact I will ban myself.You are indeed a true martyr. One day, they will erect statues of you shaped in the form of a giant L.

[cj]

Keep it simple. You are an idiot.

Wow, because I didn't feel like going into all the details of various methods that are widely available from many sources?

[cj]

Way to stay classy.

BTW, have you ever heard of limiting water intake on race day? Of course, this might lead to other problems on hot and humid days.

So does giving horses Lasix.

[cj]

However you are 100% correct that I should be kicked off. In fact I will ban myself.

I've been called worse. I hope you won't leave over a simple difference of opinion. If you want to martyr yourself, oh well. It sounds to me like you are the kind of owner trainers LOVE.

[PaceAdvantage]

However you are 100% correct that I should be kicked off. In fact I will ban myself.And for the record, I never said you should be kicked off, nor did I have any intention of kicking you off.

I just pointed out that going around calling a moderator an idiot for no good reason isn't always the smartest thing to do...

I agree with cj...in hoping you don't ban yourself. It's just a horse racing message board for goodness sake, and we're just shooting the breeze...no harm, no foul.

Besides, who is going to give us Totally Tucker updates if not you? :ThmbUp:

[sammy the sage]

Blood horse now has some numbers...

http://cs.bloodhorse.com/blogs/wgoh/archive/2012/09/18/following-up-on-the-pledge.aspx

[Show Me the Wire]

He said keep it simple and it isn't in my opinion. I took his comment offensively and stated my thoughts. And you are right I don't care.

I can't tell you how the rest of the world gets by with it. I am not evading just don't know the answer. Know that horses will bled more without lasix and that is all I know.

Different training styles and racing styles. There is less exertion on the horses. Also breeding plays a part.

[cj]

Different training styles and racing styles. There is less exertion on the horses. Also breeding plays a part.
The article says hardly any of the horses have bled, not even trace amounts. What exactly is this preventative medicine preventing?

[Charli125]

The article says hardly any of the horses have bled, not even trace amounts. What exactly is this preventative medicine preventing?

Am I missing it on that chart or do they not show the number of starts by horses NOT on Lasix? I know it's a small sample size, but I think it would be helpful to see total starters on/not on Lasix, total winners on/not on Lasix. Maybe I just missed it on the chart.

[cj]

Am I missing it on that chart or do they not show the number of starts by horses NOT on Lasix? I know it's a small sample size, but I think it would be helpful to see total starters on/not on Lasix, total winners on/not on Lasix. Maybe I just missed it on the chart.

It isn't the best put together chart I've seen, that is for sure.

[Stillriledup]

This is one of the stupidest ideas racing has ever come up with, and they have come up some dozies.

Lasix some races,not others?????
This sets racing back to the old days when hot horses would regularly ship into a non-lasix jurisdiction and take a boatload of money down the tubes when they ran up the track.

No respect for the bettors whatsoever.
Why should we respect the game?


The lasix on lasix off stuff only helps those bettors who have qualify inside info, it does nothing for the rank and file who rely on accurate PPs to handicap.

[Jake]

its not cut and dry where the benefits out way the side effects of lasix. some horses have bad reactions to the use of the stuff. a horse can dehydrate on the stuff on very hot days, and it tinkers with the blood pressure levels of the horse.

if a human has an infection, he takes penicllin to help fight it. that person is better off never having the infection to begin with, and when he takes to much dose of that drug he can become immune to it in time. if a horse doesn't bleed there is really no good reason for the use of lasix other than to keep the fluid out of the lungs. but the lungs need some fluid to work properly. there are also problems with improper administration of lasix that could cause the horse to have shortness of breath. later on down the road there are risks of liver and kidney disease attributed directly to over use of lasix in the animal's system.

Good post. My father-in-law in currently in the hospital, for chronic fibrosis and also a bad heart value, with some fluid on the lungs. I talked with his pulmonary doctor, who was flushing the fluid with Lasix. He told me that they monitor dosage very closely, precisely because of the liver and kidney damage, also because it wipes out electrolytes, and it has a ton of other negative results. He told me he uses it very sparingly, because if administer poorly, it can cause cascading effects. I don't know how this may extend to its use with young horses, with healthy livers and kidney, but it certainly made me wonder about long term effects. Takach always claimed it was a good masking agent; frankly don't know if that is still the case, but it does cause you to question the practice against long-term consequences.

[sammy the sage]

Again....the INITIAL intent of this thread was to discuss handicapping w/the dropping of lasix for maidens...and really for upcoming breeder's cup races for 2yr. olds.

NOT the pro's and con's there-of...

A smartass comment aimed at 95% of ya'll who ignore the original intent was forth-coming...but it would serve no purpose :rolleyes:

Some NEW discussion and thoughts in THE following for the 5% to peruse...

http://www.drf.com/news/breeders-cup-lasix-ban-puts-trainers-uncharted-territory

[1st time lasix]

I read every post on this thread....my conclussion is that LRL had every right to be upset with CJ after that "keep it simple'' remark. The gentleman had an opinion and stated his case with numerous thoughtful posts. CJ and anyone else can certainly disagree. But you don't ridicule/talk down to a man because he wants to prevent horses from bleeding. Just respect his view. I also believe Pace Administrator piled on....CJ doesn't need you to defend him {like a little brother} or try to intimidate a poster who doesn't agree with him. Life goes on...but this forum is less without guys like LRL

[Dahoss9698]

I read every post on this thread....my conclussion is that LRL had every right to be upset with CJ after that "keep it simple'' remark. The gentleman had an opinion and stated his case with numerous thoughtful posts. CJ and anyone else can certainly disagree. But you don't ridicule/talk down to a man because he wants to prevent horses from bleeding. Just respect his view. I also believe Pace Administrator piled on....CJ doesn't need you to defend him {like a little brother} or try to intimidate a poster who doesn't agree with him. Life goes on...but this forum is less without guys like LRL
I read every post in this thread. My conclusion is that LRL had no right to be upset and was upset because someone disagreed with him. Some people have a hard time dealing with that. LRL and anyone can certainly agree to disagree, but he didn't have to call CJ a name. Just respect his view and realize that just because you own horses, it doesn't mean that no one can disagree with you. LRL doesn't need you to defend him (like a little brother) or to try and stir it up by bringing back a thread that has long since died out. Life goes on...but if you can't take someone disagreeing with you, maybe an internet forum isn't the right place for you.

[Red Knave]

....my conclusion is that LRL had every right to be upset with CJ after that "keep it simple'' remark.
I read it differently. The way I read it was that cj basically told him to do his own research, like using Google, to find out about how bleeding is handled in other jurisdictions that don't use Lasix. That was what I thought he meant by 'simple'.