Paulie Ryan

[bigmack]

Romney/Ryan. Catchy.

http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site569/2012/0404/20120404__Romney-Ryan1_500.jpg

[Mike at A+]

During the 0bamacare "summit" I knew Ryan had the right stuff. In fact my prediction in 2009 was a Ryan/Romney ticket with Ryan on top. Ryan clearly destroyed 0bama during that summit to the point that 0bama basically wouldn't let him continue to speak. 0bama really showed his immaturity that day.

[wisconsin]

Great choice. Could not be happier.

[rastajenk]

The countdown to the next mothership-sent Eddie Munster reference has begun, the clock is ticking..... :)

[lsbets]

The countdown to the next mothership-sent Eddie Munster reference has begun, the clock is ticking..... :)

Without a doubt, heads on the left will be exploding. Ryan wants to have the serious conversations we need to have about entitlements. That scares the hell out of the left. It's going to be funny seeing mosty on here.

[Steve R]

I don't get it. Romney picks the poster boy for decimating Social Security and Medicare and he expects that to appeal to the overwhelming majority of Americans who aggressively support both? The Democrats must be experiencing euphoria at the opportunity they have been given to demonize the Republican ticket. In a 2011 Pew Research Center Poll between 85 and 90% believe Social Security and Medicare have been good for the country and 60% favor no reduction in benefits. Republican stupidity runs very deep. Palin in 2008 and Ryan in 2012. A Democratic dream come true.

[Bettowin]

Already looking forward to the VP debate.

[elysiantraveller]

I don't get it. Romney picks the poster boy for decimating Social Security and Medicare and he expects that to appeal to the overwhelming majority of Americans who aggressively support both? The Democrats must be experiencing euphoria at the opportunity they have been given to demonize the Republican ticket. In a 2011 Pew Research Center Poll between 85 and 90% believe Social Security and Medicare have been good for the country and 60% favor no reduction in benefits. Republican stupidity runs very deep. Palin in 2008 and Ryan in 2012. A Democratic dream come true.

Me neither.

The thing he helps with though is he is young, articulate, and charismatic. Something the top of the ticket doesn't have. He helps with the likeability deficit.

By making this selection though you are also conceding that you are going to wage the ideological war the White House has been clamoring for...

I don't really understand this move but... it WILL jack up the base. The base on ehere is already exicted about it.

[reckless]

When all is said and done, I am very happy with the Ryan choice as Veep.

And, I really can't wait for the Biden vs. Ryan debate.

On one side there is Paul Ryan, the intellectual conservative conscience of the House of Representatives, and on the other side is Joe Biden -- two-bit phony, a plagiarist and one so stupid he can't spell cat without staking him the c and the t.

Bring on the campaign!

[Tom]

Already looking forward to the VP debate.

Hell. Let Ryan debate Ostupid.
His speech this morning was dyno-mite!
It went right to the ideology and that is where the left cannot compete.
This guy will take the fight back to Odumbo and his idiot VP.

Good choice....very good choice.

[Steve R]

When all is said and done, I am very happy with the Ryan choice as Veep.

And, I really can't wait for the Biden vs. Ryan debate.

On one side there is Paul Ryan, the intellectual conservative conscience of the House of Representatives, and on the other side is Joe Biden -- two-bit phony, a plagiarist and one so stupid he can't spell cat without staking him the c and the t.

Bring on the campaign!
I don't believe any presidential election has been won because of the VP selected for the ticket. I can think of a couple where the VP candidate may have had a negative impact even though the party faithful supported the choice - Lieberman in 2000 and Palin in 2008. It's easy for ideologues to deceive themselves into believing their extreme views will resonate with the public. In fact, the public is much closer to the center than either party gives them credit for, otherwise how could there be such increasing support for hot button issues like gay marriage (now favored by over 50%) and marijuana legalization (favored by 56%)? Even on the issue of abortion where those calling themselves pro-choice are a minority, 52% believe it should be legal under certain circumstances. Ryan may reflect the values of the Tea Party but there is no way in hell his message will rally new voters behind Romney. I expect the glib Mr. Obama will have a field day with the Republican ticket. His neoliberal stance may actually align with many of the things Ryan and company are clamoring for, but he will do what he always does - privately pursue the neoliberal agenda while falsely claiming in public he is running on behalf of the people's, not the oligarch's interests. He's very good at it, having reversed just about every position he ran on in 2008. Despite the endless succession of lies he miraculously maintains an approval rating near 50%, just about the same as W's approval rating in the summer of 2004. Obama may be evil, but he's a sharp politician.

In the end it's about winning elections, not ideology. I despise Barack Obama for the many reasons stated elsewhere, but now I think he's got this one locked up. I was prepared to hold my nose and flip the lever for Romney, but not now. It's third party time for me.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I just enjoyed the part where Romney introduced Ryan as the next President of the United States. I also liked that Romney wore a shirt and tie sans jacket and Ryan arrived in shirt and jacket sans tie. The chemistry was grand.

[Let's Roll]

President Romney made an excellent choice for Vice President.This team is just what the Republican party wants and what the entire country needs.
Between them both, they have the skills, character and leadership ablity to do the job.

[badcompany]

I don't get it. Romney picks the poster boy for decimating Social Security and Medicare and he expects that to appeal to the overwhelming majority of Americans who aggressively support both? The Democrats must be experiencing euphoria at the opportunity they have been given to demonize the Republican ticket. In a 2011 Pew Research Center Poll between 85 and 90% believe Social Security and Medicare have been good for the country and 60% favor no reduction in benefits. Republican stupidity runs very deep. Palin in 2008 and Ryan in 2012. A Democratic dream come true.

This is somewhat deceptive. Most people are midstream viz. they've been pumping money into SS and Medicare for many years and want a return on their investment, even if they think these programs are a bad idea.

If you gave twenty somethings the option of opting out of these programs, how do you think that would go?

[ArlJim78]

team Romney/Ryan is head and shoulders above the dumb and dumber squad we have in charge now. we have a crisis in government like never before, and these two have what it takes to change direction for the better. a top businessman and a budget policy expert will be replacing the community organizer and the career politician/part time clown/mental patient.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't get it. Romney picks the poster boy for decimating Social Security and Medicare and he expects that to appeal to the overwhelming majority of Americans who aggressively support both? The Democrats must be experiencing euphoria at the opportunity they have been given to demonize the Republican ticket. In a 2011 Pew Research Center Poll between 85 and 90% believe Social Security and Medicare have been good for the country and 60% favor no reduction in benefits. Republican stupidity runs very deep. Palin in 2008 and Ryan in 2012. A Democratic dream come true.

This will certainly be the line from the Obama camp - it may just work even though it's crap.

[elysiantraveller]

In the end it's about winning elections, not ideology. I despise Barack Obama for the many reasons stated elsewhere, but now I think he's got this one locked up. I was prepared to hold my nose and flip the lever for Romney, but not now. It's third party time for me.

I agree with most of what you are saying but the Democrats have made it very clear that ideology is what they want this campaign to be about. The Republicans are merely trotting out their biggest gun in that department.

I know that you are disenfranchised but you have to admit this selection removes all doubt of what the GOP ticket/agenda is all about it... even to the Party's detriment with the mainstream...

Bush WAS able to defeat Kerry and Gore with this tactic of "demonstrating conviction."

[mostpost]

Completely underwhelmed

[Steve R]

President Romney made an excellent choice for Vice President.This team is just what the Republican party wants and what the entire country needs.
Between them both, they have the skills, character and leadership ablity to do the job.
Unfortunately Romney's chances have been flushed down the toilet with this selection regardless of the circle jerk response from the extreme right. I thought this election might be close, but not anymore. I distinctly remember the Republican euphoria over Goldwater/Miller in 1964 and how that turned out. Now Obama can stay to the right of center, continue to pursue a conservative agenda and portray the opposition as extremist, which it is.

[NJ Stinks]

When all is said and done, I am very happy with the Ryan choice as Veep.

And, I really can't wait for the Biden vs. Ryan debate.

On one side there is Paul Ryan, the intellectual conservative conscience of the House of Representatives, and on the other side is Joe Biden -- two-bit phony, a plagiarist and one so stupid he can't spell cat without staking him the c and the t.

Bring on the campaign!

I remember the right here proclaiming Palin slaughtered Joe in the last VP debate. Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true.

And count me in as one who looks forward to Ryan explaining why the country will be better off keeping the Bush tax cuts on the rich in place while slashing SS and Medicare benefits. Seniors around the country are going to love this guy! :jump:

[Steve R]

This is somewhat deceptive. Most people are midstream viz. they've been pumping money into SS and Medicare for many years and want a return on their investment, even if they think these programs are a bad idea.

If you gave twenty somethings the option of opting out of these programs, how do you think that would go?
From http://newoldage.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/social-security-and-younger-americans/:

"But a poll commissioned by AARP [in 2010] to mark Social Security’s 75th anniversary (President Franklin D. Roosevelt signed the transformational legislation on August 14, 1935) has found something even more interesting: young people line up solidly behind Social Security, too.

In a national phone survey of 1,200 adults by the GfK Roper consulting firm (margin of error: plus or minus 3 percent), 90 percent of those ages 18 to 29 deemed Social Security important. In fact, almost half of them agreed with the statement that it is “one of the very most important government programs,” an opinion held by nearly 80 percent of those over 65.

And nearly three-quarters of these youngest respondents strongly agreed that while they may not need the program when they retire, a time that probably seems infinitely far away, “I definitely want to know that it’s there, just in case I do.” Sixty-two percent said they will rely on Social Security payments in some way. By a wide margin, they opposed cutting benefits to reduce the federal deficit.

More than 80 percent said that even if they believed they could do better investing on their own, they saw their Social Security payments as contributing to “the common good.” "

[Saratoga_Mike]

I remember the right here proclaiming Palin slaughtered Joe in the last VP debate. Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true.

And count me in as one who looks forward to Ryan explaining why the country will be better off keeping the Bush tax cuts on the rich in place while slashing SS and Medicare benefits. Seniors around the country are going to love this guy! :jump:

Under the Ryan budget how much is spent on SS/Medicare in FY20 vs FY13? Once you provide that answer, please explain how you define "slash."

Comparing Paul Ryan to Sarah Palin is laughable. Paul Ryan actually knows what side the Japanese fought on during WWII. Paul Ryan has forgot more than dumb Joe Biden will ever remember about the budget, the economy and monetary policy.

[Steve R]

I agree with most of what you are saying but the Democrats have made it very clear that ideology is what they want this campaign to be about. The Republicans are merely trotting out their biggest gun in that department.

I know that you are disenfranchised but you have to admit this selection removes all doubt of what the GOP ticket/agenda is all about it... even to the Party's detriment with the mainstream...

Bush WAS able to defeat Kerry and Gore with this tactic of "demonstrating conviction."
For all his faults, Bush the man did not project the image of an extremist. Even in terms of militarism and the destruction of civil liberties he didn't go as far as Obama has.

[Saratoga_Mike]

For all his faults, Bush the man did not project the image of an extremist. Even in terms of militarism and the destruction of civil liberties he didn't go as far as Obama has.

You mean killing terrorists with drones in Yemen? Yeah, Obama's done a better job than GWB on that front. Has that destroyed my civil liberties? Or yours? Just don't declare jihad against the United States and you should be fine.

[johnhannibalsmith]

For all his faults, Bush the man did not project the image of an extremist. Even in terms of militarism and the destruction of civil liberties he didn't go as far as Obama has.

This is the nice thing about having a real "leftist" chiming in. He can tell the Democrat apologists the truth and not be accused of being a rethug or some such thing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Completely underwhelmed

And what was your reaction when Obama selected dumb Joe Biden in 2008?

[badcompany]

That poll just confirms what I said. Those kids don't have a choice as to whether to participate. Of course they're gonna rationalize that what they're being FORCED to do is good.

One question which was conveniently left out of the AARP poll is " If you could opt out the program..."

[badcompany]

This is the nice thing about having a real "leftist" chiming in. He can tell the Democrat apologists the truth and not be accused of being a rethug or some such thing.

I get the feeling Leftists don't understand their own ideology. They go on about civil liberties, but a truly Socialist state cant be anything but a dictatorship or a dictatorship by commitee. There can be no opposition because the party in power controls everything.

[NJ Stinks]

Under the Ryan budget how much is spent on SS/Medicare in FY20 vs FY13? Once you provide that answer, please explain how you define "slash."

Comparing Paul Ryan to Sarah Palin is laughable. Paul Ryan actually knows what side the Japanese fought on during WWII. Paul Ryan has forgot more than dumb Joe Biden will ever remember about the budget, the economy and monetary policy.

No time to check out the Ryan budget now but I definitely will.

I brought up the Palin debate for a reason. At any rate, I look forward to seeing how "dumb" Joe is when he and Ryan debate.

[elysiantraveller]

For all his faults, Bush the man did not project the image of an extremist. Even in terms of militarism and the destruction of civil liberties he didn't go as far as Obama has.

True... and your analysis is typically pretty objective but here I think because of your ideology you are getting into trouble... Mitt Romney does run the risk of coming across as a extremist or oligarch because of who he is... Paul Ryan though, does not. He is young, likeable, and charismatic. Things we both would agree the GOP is severely lacking this cycle.

To you? Certainly his views are extremist. To the mainstream though he isn't going to be viewed that way.

[johnhannibalsmith]

I get the feeling Leftists don't understand their own ideology. They go on about civil liberties, but a truly Socialist state cant be anything but a dictatorship or a dictatorship by commitee. There can be no opposition because the party in power controls everything.

Agreed, but I think there is an element of truth to that in all political ideologies - at least the "incongruences" aspect. I'm sort of addressing more the notion that in a "team play" environment, all criticisms are dismissed as coming from a delusional opponent that has no understanding of the "liberal" (or conservative) mentality. A guy like Steve, who I share very few beliefs with, can espouse those ideas that we do share and not be accused of "not getting it" simply because, unlike me, I'm not left-of-center enough to understand basic concepts.

[TJDave]

Setting aside ideology, If I were basing my decision on choosing an effective, seasoned leader, Ryan would be my choice. OTOH, politically it makes little sense as this virtually guarantees that Florida goes blue. I don't think Ryan can deliver Wisconsin, either.

However, this is a great deal for Ryan. He's gonna run for VP and his house seat. ;)

[elysiantraveller]

This is the nice thing about having a real "leftist" chiming in. He can tell the Democrat apologists the truth and not be accused of being a rethug or some such thing.

Hey!

I'm always annoyed when the rights on here accuse Obama of being a socialist...

The problem is one lefty in here would argue the sky is green if his president told him to. He gives the other lefty's on here a bad name.

In the end they are just ideologies that have their merits and downsides. The left and the right in this country though are really not that far apart most of the time which is why Steve R is not a fan of the climate here.

On a side note I think this selection makes Boxcar "all in" on "the Rug." :lol:

[Steve R]

For all his faults, Bush the man did not project the image of an extremist. Even in terms of militarism and the destruction of civil liberties he didn't go as far as Obama has.

You mean killing terrorists with drones in Yemen? Yeah, Obama's done a better job than GWB on that front. Has that destroyed my civil liberties? Or yours? Just don't declare jihad against the United States and you should be fine.
Playing the role of the "good German", I see. The elimination of habeus corpus, warrantless wiretaps and warrantless searches and seizures, the abandonment of due process, extrajudicial assassination of American citizens, indefinite detention - they're unimportant because they only apply to the "other guys", not you. That was exactly the same ploy used by the Nazis. OTOH, many Americans always did have an affection for fascism so policy based on authoritarianism and racism gets a lot of support from time to time.

[Steve R]

True... and your analysis is typically pretty objective but here I think because of your ideology you are getting into trouble... Mitt Romney does run the risk of coming across as a extremist or oligarch because of who he is... Paul Ryan though, does not. He is young, likeable, and charismatic. Things we both would agree the GOP is severely lacking this cycle.

To you? Certainly his views are extremist. To the mainstream though he isn't going to be viewed that way.
If he argues aggressively for significant rollbacks to Social Security and Medicare, he definitely will be viewed as extremist because, true or not, it will come across as an existential threat to the future security of working families.

[redshift1]

Ryan....B.A. in Political Science/Economics.

Biden...Graduated Law School, passed Bar.

Intellectuals no, politicians yes no matter how their characterized in the media.

.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...
The problem is one lefty in here would argue the sky is green if his president told him to. He gives the other lefty's on here a bad name.
...

Well, the other fellow (yeah you IRS man) would do the same in his first post. But he'd at least maybe concede that maybe his vision had gone a bit haywire if enough sensible people confirmed that it still appeared blue to them.

;)

[elysiantraveller]

If he argues aggressively for significant rollbacks to Social Security and Medicare, he definitely will be viewed as extremist because, true or not, it will come across as an existential threat to the future security of working families.

I don't see it. You could be right I suppose but that comes down to framing. Obama already badly gutted Medicare with his destruction of the MA-PD program. It depends on who is succesful on formulating the debate and Ryan, with his ability to educate, adds a boost to the GOP in accomplishing it.

[TJDave]

If he argues aggressively for significant rollbacks to Social Security and Medicare, he definitely will be viewed as extremist

He won't have to. Democrats will do that for him.

[Steve R]

I get the feeling Leftists don't understand their own ideology. They go on about civil liberties, but a truly Socialist state cant be anything but a dictatorship or a dictatorship by commitee. There can be no opposition because the party in power controls everything.
Socialism comes in many forms and you are confusing Communism with Socialism when you talk about dictatorship. By definition pure Socialism is democratic. In the real world, however, Socialism, like any other "ism" gets distorted by the lust for power. The traditional Socialism of the Scandinavian countries is a far cry from what you describe because democracy thrives there. In 2011 The Economist Intelligence Group, hardly a liberal organization, ranked the U.S. 19th in the world in supporting democratic ideals. Every country in Scandinavia was among the top 10. Most have a higher standard of living than the U.S. and most manage to stay out of other countries' business.

The U.S. loves to extol the virtue of elections as the key to democracy. Yet when internationally-monitored elections are held in so-called socialist countries there is outrage when the "wrong" side wins. American misunderstanding and hypocrisy about Socialism is mind-boggling. What were all those poor fools thinking when they elected FDR four times?

[Saratoga_Mike]

No time to check out the Ryan budget now but I definitely will.

I brought up the Palin debate for a reason. At any rate, I look forward to seeing how "dumb" Joe is when he and Ryan debate.

Why do you use terms like "slash" when you apparently haven't even looked at the Ryan budget?

You honestly believe Joe Biden's a bright guy?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't see it. You could be right I suppose but that comes down to framing. Obama already badly gutted Medicare with his destruction of the MA-PD program. It depends on who is succesful on formulating the debate and Ryan, with his ability to educate, adds a boost to the GOP in accomplishing it.

Gutted? Please, no one's gutted any major social-welfare program. Gutted--laughable.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]
Playing the role of the "good German", I see. The elimination of habeus corpus, warrantless wiretaps and warrantless searches and seizures, the abandonment of due process, extrajudicial assassination of American citizens, indefinite detention - they're unimportant because they only apply to the "other guys", not you. That was exactly the same ploy used by the Nazis. OTOH, many Americans always did have an affection for fascism so policy based on authoritarianism and racism gets a lot of support from time to time.

Explain to me what my support (and Obama's policy) of killing terrorists in Yemen with drones has to do with racism? I'll ignore your other stupid comparisons to the Nazis.

[Rookies]

Astute choice for EVERYONE!

* Great for the Con Tea Party base to have one of their premier fellow travellers on the ticket. He is articulate and light years ahead of a Palin.

* Great for the Democrats who have Public Enemy #1 ( of SS/Health/Old Age) front and center to fire at.

In the end, guarantees the election for Obama as that big Southern vacation destination ain't going to vote for the guy taking away their retirement. Ryan will be in an endless loop explaining and twisting his SS positions to attempt to cow tow to the electorate. It won't be pretty.

[boxcar]

And what was your reaction when Obama selected dumb Joe Biden in 2008?

I'm betting overwhelmed. :D

Boxcar

[ElKabong]

Excellent choice today.

(a) the Biden disappearance will continue. Poor buffoon will be AWOL, or else be totally gutted in debate. No doubt the DNC tries to stiff arm a debate, or failing that, negotiate the shit out of the terms and groundrules as to limit the damage

(b) WI, MN come in a little more red shaded from the previous purple. Maybe Iowa too (i don't know anyone from Iowa tho, haven't heard opinions). People in VA, NC will take positive note, but Fla is more blue shading now

(c) eventually what the RNC needs to drill home, hopefully 5 days before election day, is the character assassination on Ryan that will have gone on from this day forth is simply a deflection of the current administation's failure to help the working class of America. Unemployment is unchanged from Jan 2009 when Obama took over. ....That's not called progress, esp when the debt has reached unseen before, record proportions. "Mission FAILED"


When this election process is over it will be clear Ryan is by far the sharper of the 4 running in the election

[mostpost]

Under the Ryan budget how much is spent on SS/Medicare in FY20 vs FY13? Once you provide that answer, please explain how you define "slash."

The question is not how much is spent but how it is spent. In the case of Medicare, I paid into it all of my adult life. (after it was passed.) For that I now get part A coverage with no further premium payments. Part A covers me on Hospitalizations, Surgeries and the like; the major part of my likely health expenses. Under Ryan's plan I would have to pay premiums for those benefits. I would be double paying. Furthermore, I would once again be at the mercy of private insurance companies in determining my premiums. I might not be able to afford the premiums even with the vouchers.

Ryan's plan, as I read it in wikipedia would require companies to cover all seniors, but would it require insurance companies to cover all procedures? Republicans aren't big on requiring private enterprise to do anything.

Then there is the amount of the premium support payment. The top two percent would receive 30% of the entire amount; the next six percent would receive 50%; while the rest of the populace would receive the entire amount.
That bottom 92% represents annual salaries of $0 to $147,000 a year. Yet Ryan's plan treats them equally.

The wikipedia article "Path to Prosperity" says the $8,000 dollar supplement in 2022 is based on the amount per capita that will be spent on Medicare in that year. So if we are spending the same per capita, how do we benefit as a country by going to Ryan's plan? More importantly who bears the largest burden under his plan? The answer to that is clear. It is those who can least afford that burden. And that is typical Republican.

[GaryG]

Harry Reid will say that he has credible sources that say Ryan is a child molester....

[elysiantraveller]

Gutted? Please, no one's gutted any major social-welfare program. Gutted--laughable.

Perhaps gutted is too strong of a word. He has hacked funding though for the program though in relation to MA and MA-PD provider payments. If I recall correctly we both agree in this.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Perhaps gutted is too strong of a word. He has hacked funding though for the program though in relation to MA and MA-PD provider payments. If I recall correctly we both agree in this.

Hacked is too strong, too, imo. I assume you're referring to the reduction in the RATE of Medicare spending as part of ACA (ObamaCare)? As for Part D, ObamaCare will actually do away with the so-called "donut-hole," making it an even richer benefit.

[Saratoga_Mike]

.

The wikipedia article "Path to Prosperity" says the $8,000 dollar supplement in 2022 is based on the amount per capita that will be spent on Medicare in that year. So if we are spending the same per capita, how do we benefit as a country by going to Ryan's plan? More importantly who bears the largest burden under his plan? The answer to that is clear. It is those who can least afford that burden. And that is typical Republican.

First, why don't you ever go to a primary source? You're a smart guy - why not actually read the Ryan budget document?

To answer your question, most of the savings would come in the out-years as the Ryan plan would effectively cap the annual spending increase. He's effectively using the private sector to ration care. You should support this; it's the only way to control costs.

[Rookies]

First, why don't you ever go to a primary source? You're a smart guy - why not actually read the Ryan budget document?

To answer your question, most of the savings would come in the out-years as the Ryan plan would effectively cap the annual spending increase. He's effectively using the private sector to ration care. You should support this; it's the only way to control costs.

The only way to ration cost is to have a single payer for Health Care. This was the President's biggest mistake/ lacking coyones- whatever you think. The private sector (and all its components) are interested in one thing- making money and that doesn't square with diminished cost HC.

[elysiantraveller]

Hacked is too strong, too, imo. I assume you're referring to the reduction in the RATE of Medicare spending as part of ACA (ObamaCare)? As for Part D, ObamaCare will actually do away with the so-called "donut-hole," making it an even richer benefit.

Yes the half a trillion dollar squeeze in coming in the lowering of payments to MA and MA-PD provider groups. MA is traditionally the inexpensive Medicare option for seniors. Hell my area as of last year still offered a $0 premium option. By cutting the funding to these provider groups he is going to be hurting access to the poorest of seniors.

[elysiantraveller]

The only way to ration cost is to have a single payer for Health Care.

WHAT?!?!?

Have you ever taken an economics course?....

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes the half a trillion dollar squeeze in coming in the lowering of payments to MA and MA-PD provider groups. MA is traditionally the inexpensive Medicare option for seniors. Hell my area as of last year still offered a $0 premium option. By cutting the funding to these provider groups he is going to be hurting access to the poorest of seniors.

They can just opt back into tradtional fee-for-service Medicare. I oppose the govt paying the private sector 105% to 107% of what it costs to deliver the services under traditional Medicare FFS, just so seniors (the wealthiest segment in our country) get more freebies.

[Valuist]

Completely underwhelmed

I consider this very much a positive, coming from Mostpost.

[elysiantraveller]

Yes the half a trillion dollar squeeze in coming in the lowering of payments to MA and MA-PD provider groups. MA is traditionally the inexpensive Medicare option for seniors. Hell my area as of last year still offered a $0 premium option. By cutting the funding to these provider groups he is going to be hurting access to the poorest of seniors.

They can just opt back into tradtional fee-for-service Medicare. I oppose the govt paying the private sector 105% to 107% of what it costs to deliver the services under traditional Medicare FFS, just so seniors (the wealthiest segment in our country) get more freebies.

Traditional Fee For Service Medicare is:

$1296 Deductible and 20% coinsurance.

Traditional fee for service medicare makes the average retiree one major health issue away from being wiped out financially. You are of the opinion the wealthiest use MA. I assure you the very poorest flock to it as well.

I can get into the weeds with you on this but basically doing away with MA does hurt poor seniors... substantially.

[Valuist]

The only way to ration cost is to have a single payer for Health Care. This was the President's biggest mistake/ lacking coyones- whatever you think. The private sector (and all its components) are interested in one thing- making money and that doesn't square with diminished cost HC.


You are right about one thing: the private sector is interested in making money. And that incentive is what drives innovation. A single payer system will mean higher costs, and less quality care.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]

Traditional fee for service medicare is a death sentence to the average retiree who under that plan is one major health issue away from being wiped out financially. You are of the opinion the wealthiest use MA. I assure you the very poorest flock to it as well.

I haven't seen an income breakout of MA users. I do know seniors are the wealthiest segment in our country.

[Steve R]

[QUOTE=Steve R]

Explain to me what my support (and Obama's policy) of killing terrorists in Yemen with drones has to do with racism? I'll ignore your other stupid comparisons to the Nazis.
Here we go again. Denial of support for the Nazis in the early 1930s by an extremely powerful segment of the American business community (William Randolph Hearst, Joseph Kennedy (JFK's father), Charles Lindbergh, John Rockefeller, Andrew Mellon (head of Alcoa, banker, and Secretary of Treasury), DuPont, General Motors, Standard Oil (now Exxon), Ford, ITT, Allen Dulles (later head of the CIA), Prescott Bush, National City Bank, and General Electric). Check out the historical record before you reveal a complete lack of understanding about the U.S. relationship with the emerging fascist regimes in Spain, Germany and Italy.

As for killing "terrorists" in Yemen with drones, your upfront lack of concern for the hundreds of innocent civilians killed there, many of them children, and in Pakistan, Somalia, wherever, says as much about you as I need to know. I have the feeling that if the victims weren't Muslims or dark-skinned you might express a bit more concern for the war crimes being perpetrated in your name. Imagine a series of American police assaults to break up domestic terrorism operations that resulted in the death of scores of innocent American citizens on a continual basis. No doubt you would be outraged. But for some reason there is no "War on American Terrorism", is there, despite the fact that more Americans have died since 2001 from domestic terrorism than foreign? It reminds me of the time when Japanese-American citizens were incarcerated during WWII but German-American and Italian American citizens were not. No institutional racism there I suppose.

But why should I be surprised? The U.S. is a country born, nurtured and raised out of slavery and genocide. The justification of that legacy survives to this day and you apparently are OK with it.

Also, I suggest you read the key elements of the Patriot Act, the NDAA and the German Enabling Act. Then ask me about "comparisons to the Nazis".

[Rookies]

WHAT?!?!?

Have you ever taken an economics course?....

If the goal is complete, public HC, that's the bottom line. Other economic sectors have competition as a means to possible lowering costs- not this one. Just check out the costs of those with true public HC v.s. others. Now, I know this is not the only factor, but those countries with very good public HC systems are way ahead of the U.S. in lower cost- mine included.

This does not mean that Governments ( if they are the3 single payer) don't make idiotic decisions and grease some quasi private sector components with foolish payments. But, its easier to out the Government to do the right thing.

[Saratoga_Mike]

You are right about one thing: the private sector is interested in making money. And that incentive is what drives innovation. A single payer system will mean higher costs, and less quality care.

If the govt controlled all healthcare spending and truly wanted to control those costs, I doubt the costs would be higher, but quality would go down the tubes.

[elysiantraveller]

[QUOTE=elysiantraveller]

I haven't seen an income breakout of MA users. I do know seniors are the wealthiest segment in our country.

I don't like MA in principle and I do agree with most of your opinions. I'm just stating that in the context of attacking Paul Ryan for wanting to shove grandma off a cliff the same criteria needs to be turned around back on the president. He as done a significant amount of damage to a healthy segment of the senior population and the care they receive.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]

I don't like MA in principle and I do agree with most of your opinions. I'm just stating that in the context of attacking Paul Ryan for wanting to shove grandma off a cliff the same criteria needs to be turned around back on the president. He as done a significant amount of damage to a healthy segment of the senior population and the care they receive.

You may be right in theory, but in reality I don't think it works. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the Ryan selection changes the discussion from the economy to Medicare. And Obama would much rather talk about Medicare than the economy.

[mostpost]

And what was your reaction when Obama selected dumb Joe Biden in 2008?
Whelmed. I thought he was a good choice but not the best. That would have been Hillary Clinton, who was also the best choice for President. In retrospect Hillary has been much more valuable as Secretary of State than she would have been as VP.

All you righties are 100% wrong when you think Biden is dumb. His intellect tends more toward the practical than the theoretical. There are a lot of people I would prefer to Biden when it comes to formulating policy, but few I would prefer when implementing that policy and getting people to work towards those goals. Neither Richard J nor Richard M Daley were intellectual giants, but the were both extraordinary at accomplishing things. The same could be said for Lyndon Baines JOhnson. And Nancy Pelosi. :D

[Steve R]

You are right about one thing: the private sector is interested in making money. And that incentive is what drives innovation. A single payer system will mean higher costs, and less quality care.
This is nonsense. Health care in countries with single payer programs costs 1/2 to 1/3 of what it costs in the U.S. and essentially every developed country with single payer has better health outcomes than the U.S. according to the WHO. You can delude yourself as much as you like about American health care, but when you're 38th in life expectancy, 34th in infant mortality and 48th in maternal mortality you don't have much to brag about.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Whelmed. I thought he was a good choice but not the best. That would have been Hillary Clinton, who was also the best choice for President. In retrospect Hillary has been much more valuable as Secretary of State than she would have been as VP.

All you righties are 100% wrong when you think Biden is dumb. His intellect tends more toward the practical than the theoretical. There are a lot of people I would prefer to Biden when it comes to formulating policy, but few I would prefer when implementing that policy and getting people to work towards those goals. Neither Richard J nor Richard M Daley were intellectual giants, but the were both extraordinary at accomplishing things. The same could be said for Lyndon Baines JOhnson. And Nancy Pelosi. :D

I disagree with Hillary on policy matters probably 85% of the time, but I think she's a smart lady and I have respect for her.

Biden just isn't a bright guy and he doesn't work that hard, not sure what you think he's helped implement. He's a member of a very nice golf club in Delaware - he plays more now than he did when he was a Senator.

[elysiantraveller]

[QUOTE=elysiantraveller]

You may be right in theory, but in reality I don't think it works. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the Ryan selection changes the discussion from the economy to Medicare. And Obama would much rather talk about Medicare than the economy.

I don't like the Ryan pick.

I can understand his appeal and why they chose him but he would not have been my pick.

[mostpost]

First, why don't you ever go to a primary source? You're a smart guy - why not actually read the Ryan budget document?

To answer your question, most of the savings would come in the out-years as the Ryan plan would effectively cap the annual spending increase. He's effectively using the private sector to ration care. You should support this; it's the only way to control costs.

I often go to a primary source. I did so in the health care debate. In this case I feel the Wikipedia article provides sufficient information. Is the Ryan plan different from what is presented in Wikipedia?

What you mean by "effectively cap the annual spending increase' is effectively cap the annual spending increase by the government. In the meantime the overall cost of healthcare will continue to soar and that cost will be increasingly borne by the individual either in the form of higher premiums or payment for services.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]

I don't like the Ryan pick.

I can understand his appeal and why they chose him but he would not have been my pick.

He's certainly better than Chris Christie - laughable that people even thought Romney would consider him. But I suspect the Obama camp will have a field day with the Medicare issue, lying about the Ryan plan at every turn. And Ryan's certainly better than Jon Huntsman - my God that man is a condesecending bore (sorry I know he was your prez pick).

[Steve R]

[QUOTE=elysiantraveller]

I haven't seen an income breakout of MA users. I do know seniors are the wealthiest segment in our country.
That is a recent development. In 1984 the median net worth by age of householder was $147K for those 55-64 and $120K for those 65 and older. In 2009 the figures were reversed to $162K and $170K, respectively. However, part of that is the result of a 60% increase in the number of people over 65 still working and earning an income skewed to the high end by years of service.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I often go to a primary source. I did so in the health care debate. In this case I feel the Wikipedia article provides sufficient information. Is the Ryan plan different from what is presented in Wikipedia?

What you mean by "effectively cap the annual spending increase' is effectively cap the annual spending increase by the government. In the meantime the overall cost of healthcare will continue to soar and that cost will be increasingly borne by the individual either in the form of higher premiums or payment for services.

Yes.

I think the country would most likely spend less on hc if we had a single payer system. However, quality of care would go down. It's a trade off. You may be willing to make that trade-off. I am not.

You do realize Medicare provides very good care now b/c the costs are subsidized by private-sector plans, right? That's how the entire hospital system works. On the nursing home side, Medicare and private pay subsidize the Medicaid patient. So please don't think "if everyone had Medicare, the quality of care would not change." That simply isn't true.

[mostpost]

I disagree with Hillary on policy matters probably 85% of the time, but I think she's a smart lady and I have respect for her.

Biden just isn't a bright guy and he doesn't work that hard, not sure what you think he's helped implement. He's a member of a very nice golf club in Delaware - he plays more now than he did when he was a Senator.

Here are just some of the things Biden has accomplished or helped to implement while vice president. Sorry they are from Wikipedia.

This list does not include any of his accomplishments as a Senator. That is another long list.

Biden held the oversight role for infrastructure spending from the Obama stimulus package aimed at counteracting the late-2000s recession.

His ability to negotiate with Congressional Republicans played a key role in bringing about the bipartisan deals that resulted in the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 that resolved a taxation deadlock and the Budget Control Act of 2011 that resolved the United States debt ceiling crisis.

Biden was also named to head the new White House Task Force on Working Families, an initiative aimed at improving the economic well being of the middle class

Biden made visits to Iraq about once every two months,[76] including trips to Baghdad in August and September 2009 to listen to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and reiterate U.S. stances on Iraq's future;[205] by this time he had become the administration's point man in delivering messages to Iraqi leadership about expected progress in the country

He led the successful administration effort to gain Senate approval for the New START treaty.

In December 2010, Biden's advocacy within the White House for a middle ground, followed by his direct negotiations with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, were instrumental in producing the administration's compromise tax package that revolved around a temporary extension of the Bush tax cuts.[222][223] Biden then took the lead in trying to sell the agreement to a reluctant Democratic caucus in Congress,[222][224] which was passed as the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010. (not that I agree with extending the Bush tax cuts-but it is an example of Biden advancing administration policy)

In March 2011, Obama detailed Biden to lead negotiations between both houses of Congress and the White House in resolving federal spending levels for the rest of the year and avoid a government shutdown.[226] By May 2011, a "Biden panel" with six congressional members was trying to reach a bipartisan deal on raising the U.S. debt ceiling as part of an overall deficit reduction plan.[227][228] The U.S. debt ceiling crisis developed over the next couple of months, but it was again Biden's relationship with McConnell that proved to be a key factor in breaking a deadlock and finally bringing about a bipartisan deal to resolve it, in the form of the Budget Control Act of 2011, signed on August 2, 2011, the same day that an unprecedented U.S. default had loomed.[225][229][230] Biden had spent the most time bargaining with Congress on the debt question of anyone in the administration,[229] and one Republican staffer said, "Biden’s the only guy with real negotiating authority, and [McConnell] knows that his word is good. He was a key to the deal."[225]

[Saratoga_Mike]

1) Biden held the oversight role for infrastructure spending from the Obama stimulus package aimed at counteracting the late-2000s recession.

2) His ability to negotiate with Congressional Republicans played a key role in bringing about the bipartisan deals that resulted in the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 that resolved a taxation deadlock and the Budget Control Act of 2011 that resolved the United States debt ceiling crisis.

3) Biden was also named to head the new White House Task Force on Working Families, an initiative aimed at improving the economic well being of the middle class

4) Biden made visits to Iraq about once every two months,[76] including trips to Baghdad in August and September 2009 to listen to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and reiterate U.S. stances on Iraq's future;[205] by this time he had become the administration's point man in delivering messages to Iraqi leadership about expected progress in the country

5) He led the successful administration effort to gain Senate approval for the New START treaty.

]

1) That worked out well.
2) You mean the deals where the Reps got their way on almost every issue? I appreciated his work on that one.
3) He's improved the economic well being of middle class families? Even you don't believe that.
4) He visited the troops - that's a good thing - no criticism on that. He delivered messages? That's implementation?
5) Maybe he did.

[wisconsin]

Here are just some of the things Biden has accomplished or helped to implement while vice president. Sorry they are from Wikipedia.

This list does not include any of his accomplishments as a Senator. That is another long list.

Biden held the oversight role for infrastructure spending from the Obama stimulus package aimed at counteracting the late-2000s recession.

His ability to negotiate with Congressional Republicans played a key role in bringing about the bipartisan deals that resulted in the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010 that resolved a taxation deadlock and the Budget Control Act of 2011 that resolved the United States debt ceiling crisis.

Biden was also named to head the new White House Task Force on Working Families, an initiative aimed at improving the economic well being of the middle class

Biden made visits to Iraq about once every two months,[76] including trips to Baghdad in August and September 2009 to listen to Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki and reiterate U.S. stances on Iraq's future;[205] by this time he had become the administration's point man in delivering messages to Iraqi leadership about expected progress in the country

He led the successful administration effort to gain Senate approval for the New START treaty.

In December 2010, Biden's advocacy within the White House for a middle ground, followed by his direct negotiations with Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, were instrumental in producing the administration's compromise tax package that revolved around a temporary extension of the Bush tax cuts.[222][223] Biden then took the lead in trying to sell the agreement to a reluctant Democratic caucus in Congress,[222][224] which was passed as the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010. (not that I agree with extending the Bush tax cuts-but it is an example of Biden advancing administration policy)

In March 2011, Obama detailed Biden to lead negotiations between both houses of Congress and the White House in resolving federal spending levels for the rest of the year and avoid a government shutdown.[226] By May 2011, a "Biden panel" with six congressional members was trying to reach a bipartisan deal on raising the U.S. debt ceiling as part of an overall deficit reduction plan.[227][228] The U.S. debt ceiling crisis developed over the next couple of months, but it was again Biden's relationship with McConnell that proved to be a key factor in breaking a deadlock and finally bringing about a bipartisan deal to resolve it, in the form of the Budget Control Act of 2011, signed on August 2, 2011, the same day that an unprecedented U.S. default had loomed.[225][229][230] Biden had spent the most time bargaining with Congress on the debt question of anyone in the administration,[229] and one Republican staffer said, "Biden’s the only guy with real negotiating authority, and [McConnell] knows that his word is good. He was a key to the deal."[225]


1) Somone had to be "it". The results are?
2) He just happened to be around. Do you really think he negotiated, as in a car deal?
3) Head's of task forces never accomplish anything.
4) That is a job of the VP. Not an accomplishment.
5) Senate approval was going to be a no-brainer on this treaty re-write.
6) How did you really feel about this?
7) How much begging was involved?

[Valuist]

This is nonsense. Health care in countries with single payer programs costs 1/2 to 1/3 of what it costs in the U.S. and essentially every developed country with single payer has better health outcomes than the U.S. according to the WHO. You can delude yourself as much as you like about American health care, but when you're 38th in life expectancy, 34th in infant mortality and 48th in maternal mortality you don't have much to brag about.

Any cited statistics for infant mortality rates are spurious, at best.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/276952/infant-mortality-deceptive-statistic-scott-w-atlas

[Tom]

Great for the Democrats who have Public Enemy #1 ( of SS/Health/Old Age) front and center to fire at.


No, no....that is Obama.
Haven't you read his health care bill?
Oh wait, NO ONE has!

[Tom]

Under Ryan's plan I would have to pay premiums for those benefits.

Oh you poor baby.
Having to spend some you union-inflated earnings to take care of yourself.
What a slap in the face. How unfair can they be?

[Tom]

This is nonsense. Health care in countries with single payer programs costs 1/2 to 1/3 of what it costs in the U.S. and essentially every developed country with single payer has better health outcomes than the U.S.

BS.
Name one country with half the people the USA has, and then name one that pays for ALL illegals, no questions asked.

Being a socialist is easy when you don't know sit about reality.

[boxcar]

Ryan was pretty much a predictable [yawner] pick by the Republican Establishment. They'll stick anyone, who even has the faint smell of a conservatism on his or her person, in the second spot (which is mostly irrelevant, anyway) to try to entice conservative voters to the polls.

Boxcar

[Saratoga_Mike]

Ryan was pretty much a predictable [yawner] pick by the Republican Establishment. They'll stick anyone, who even has the faint smell of a conservatism on his or her person, in the second spot (which is mostly irrelevant, anyway) to try to entice conservative voters to the polls.

Boxcar

Box, could you please name three major issues where you believe Ryan falls out as a liberal (as your post seems to imply?)? Thank you.

[mostpost]

Ryan will certainly help to increase campaign contributions. In fact I just made my first donation; earlier than I planned and for twice the amount. Bad news for Romney/Ryan that I made it to Obama/Biden :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[johnhannibalsmith]

Ryan scares you that much?

[ArlJim78]

Ryan was pretty much a predictable [yawner] pick by the Republican Establishment. They'll stick anyone, who even has the faint smell of a conservatism on his or her person, in the second spot (which is mostly irrelevant, anyway) to try to entice conservative voters to the polls.

Boxcar
yeah, such a diabolical plan.

[mostpost]

Ryan scares you that much?
Yes, in terms of what he might do. No, in terms of his chances of winning.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Yes, in terms of what he might do. No, in terms of his chances of winning.

I'm not sure how those two sentences makes any sense when juxtaposed together. How can you be afraid of what he might do if you don't believe that he has any chance of him doing those things?

[Greyfox]

Great pick. :ThmbUp:
I would have prefered Ryan/Romney ticket.

[Greyfox]

Ryan will certainly help to increase campaign contributions. In fact I just made my first donation; earlier than I planned and for twice the amount.

Doubled your pledge Mostie?
$2 instead of $1 eh.

"Every little helps!" said the old lady when she peed in the sea.

[NJ Stinks]

Why do you use terms like "slash" when you apparently haven't even looked at the Ryan budget?

You honestly believe Joe Biden's a bright guy?

The only thing Ryan has on Biden is age.

Here's a paste from the Washington Post's Ezra Klein on Ryan & SS:
____________________________

Perhaps his most ambitious policy proposal prior to his celebrated budgets was the Social Security Personal Savings Guarantee and Prosperity Act of 2005 (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.01776:), a plan to privatize Social Security. The program’s actuaries found that Ryan’s plan would require $2.4 trillion in additional costs over the first 10 years, and the Bush administration ultimately dismissed (http://online.wsj.com/article/0,,SB110496995612018199,00.html) it as “irresponsible.”

On Medicare, Ryan originally proposed eliminating the traditional Medicare plan entirely and replacing it with a menu of private plans. He subsequently softened the proposal to include the traditional Medicare plan as one option on the menu, But either way, he would remake Medicare from a defined-benefit plan, in which seniors are simply guaranteed Medicare coverage, to a defined-contribution plan, in which they are given a voucher equal to the cost of the cheapest plans on the menu, and if they don’t want those plans, they have to pay the difference.

On Medicaid, Ryan proposed turning the program over to the states and limiting the federal contribution — which now increases alongside Medicaid’s actual expenses — to block grants that grow more slowly than health-care costs. The nonpartisan Kaiser Family Foundation estimated (http://www.kff.org/medicaid/upload/8185.pdf) that this would cut Medicaid spending by more than $700 billion over the next decade, but at the cost of throwing between 14 and 19 million people, many of them children, off Medicaid.

The list goes on. Ryan’s Social Security proposal (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.01776:), which was among the most ambitious put forward by any member of Congress, would have diverted Social Security contributions into private accounts. Ryan’s health-reform proposal (http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/111/hr2520) would have ended the tax exclusion for employer-based health care and replaced it with a refundable tax credit for individuals. Ryan has even sponsored legislation (http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.6053:) ending the requirement that the Federal Reserve work to achieve full employment.

Link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/wp/2012/08/11/paul-ryan-isnt-a-deficit-hawk-hes-a-conservative-reformer/?hpid=z3
_________________________________

Ryan can articulate all he wants. IMO he's selling something the majority does not want.

[Tom]

Still cheaper than your boy, Odoophus. :D

Face it, anything live, or close to room temperature and Biden is outdone.
The only thing Biden is smarter than is mostie! :D :D :D

[lsbets]

Ryan wants to have a grown up discussion about entitlements. Infants on the left don't want that discussion to take place and lie through their teeth about it in order to continue the transfer of wealth from my children's generation to theirs.

[Tom]

Very well put. Libs are not capable of adult discussion without lying.
Ryan's speech today was the perfect example of one Obama cannot stand up to. He either lies or character attacks - NEVER has Obama been able to discuss anything like an adult. This will be interesting from now on.

[ArlJim78]

Ryan was high school class president.
Obama was a dopehead and member of the Choom gang in HS.

[mostpost]

Ryan wants to have a grown up discussion about entitlements. Infants on the left don't want that discussion to take place and lie through their teeth about it in order to continue the transfer of wealth from my children's generation to theirs.

Ryan wants to destroy those programs. We can fund Social Security in perpetuity simply by removing the cap on contributions. Medicare requires a stronger fix but privatizing it is not the answer. The problem lies in the soaring costs of health care.

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING WILL MAKE YOUR HEAD EXPLODE
Hospitals should not be run by for profit corporations. The mission of a corporation is to maximize profits for its shareholders. The mission of a hospital is to provide care for its patients. When those missions collide it is always the patient who suffers; either financially or health wise. Hospitals should be run as non profits.

This does not mean that doctors and other health care providers should not be paid commensurate with their abilities and contributions. But administrators and executives should have salaries mandated. And they ought to be people with expertise in health care matters.

[mostpost]

Ryan was high school class president.
OOOH!! Impressive. There are 30,000 high schools in the United States. Each one has four class presidents each year. Having attended high school I know that some of those presidents can be real tools. Ryan strikes me as the kind of guy who would not let you see his math homework if you were having difficulty with a problem. He also strikes me as someone who curried favor.

Obama was a dopehead and member of the Choom gang in HS.
Most sensible people don't care if Obama took an occasional hit when he was in high school. That is not being a dopehead. I would be willing to bet that many who post here used marijuana in high school and used it more, I would also be willing to bet that they would deny it.

Maybe you know what the Choom gang was, but the willfully ignorant who read this will be convinced that Obama belonged to the Hawaiian version of the Crips or the Blackstone Rangers. The Choom gang was the small group of guys with whom Obama smoked marijuana. The book from which you got your distorted information-the Dave Maranais book-also states that most of the "Choom" gang has gone on to be successful lawyers, doctors and businessmen. One of them even became president.

[lsbets]

Ryan wants to destroy those programs

Proof of my point about lying.

[lsbets]

WARNING: THE FOLLOWING WILL MAKE YOUR HEAD EXPLODE


Why would my head explode? We all know you're clueless and don't know how things work outside of the USPS.

[mostpost]

Ryan wants to have a grown up discussion about entitlements. Infants on the left don't want that discussion to take place and lie through their teeth about it in order to continue the transfer of wealth from my children's generation to theirs.

Ryan wants to change Medicare from a program in which Medicare pays for services I require directly, to a program where Medicare pays me to buy insurance premiums which then may or may not pay for the services I require. And it does this after I have already paid all my working life (Since 1965) to be a part of the Medicare program. So he's taking my money and giving it back to me so I can pay it out again to get something I thought I already had. Am I lying?

Ryan has backed off on his Social Security plans so I really don't know what his present proposal is. But I know that his original plan was to allow recipients to designate at least a portion of their contributions to be used in investments they would control. I oppose that. Contributions to Social Security should be controlled by Social Security for the good of all participant. If you want to invest your money, invest your money. I do not wish to be impacted by your bad investments. Or your good investments.

[Tom]

Most sensible people don't care if Obama took an occasional hit when he was in high school.

How do you know he didn't use more?
I say he was a college pusher and that is why his records are sealed.

The only way he can prove me wrong is to release his records.


There, now I am Dingy Tom! :D
And, qualified to be democrat.

[Tom]

Ryan wants to save the country form the endless spending by democrats.
We CANNOT sustain the current spending, and not one of you nitwits can understand that.

For more years of this total moron in charge and we will be broke and in a depression that dwarfs the one in the 1930s.

Count on it.

[mostpost]

Proof of my point about lying.

Ryan wants to take medicare and replace it with something he calls medicare but is not. Its private insurance and benefits private insurance companies.

He wants to destroy Medicare. Protest all you want.

[ArlJim78]

Most sensible people don't care if Obama took an occasional hit when he was in high school. That is not being a dopehead. I would be willing to bet that many who post here used marijuana in high school and used it more, I would also be willing to bet that they would deny it.

Maybe you know what the Choom gang was, but the willfully ignorant who read this will be convinced that Obama belonged to the Hawaiian version of the Crips or the Blackstone Rangers. The Choom gang was the small group of guys with whom Obama smoked marijuana. The book from which you got your distorted information-the Dave Maranais book-also states that most of the "Choom" gang has gone on to be successful lawyers, doctors and businessmen. One of them even became president.
Obama went on do do nothing, he was a doper in HS, he was a zero in college, nobody even can remember him in college, no papers or grades, he was a zero in the private sector as well, then he fled to Chicago to become a huckster and Alinsky disciple. a complete fraud and failure, who most sensible people recognize as the worst president in history.

[lsbets]

Ryan wants to change Medicare from a program in which Medicare pays for services I require directly, to a program where Medicare pays me to buy insurance premiums which then may or may not pay for the services I require. And it does this after I have already paid all my working life (Since 1965) to be a part of the Medicare program. So he's taking my money and giving it back to me so I can pay it out again to get something I thought I already had. Am I lying?

Yes, you are. You said Ryan wants to destroy Medicare. He doesn't. He wants to reform it. You are also lying when you say his changes would affect you. You will continue to receive a giant transfer of wealth from my generation and my children's generation to yours. Nothing will change for you. You did not pay enough in your lifetime to cover what your costs will be, and the unfunded portion will be paid for by those who are still working.

So you lied twice. First when you said he wants to destroy the program, then when you said the proposed changes would apply to you.

[ArlJim78]

you can't use facts with liberals LS.
you could post the Ryan plan for medicare word for word and they would still insist that he wants to get rid of medicare and kill old people.
too many years of brainwashing have dulled their logic circuits.

[boxcar]

Box, could you please name three major issues where you believe Ryan falls out as a liberal (as your post seems to imply?)? Thank you.

I didn't mean to imply that -- but I am saying that because Ryan is more conservative than Rom, this was the Establishment's safe and calculated pick for the second spot on the ticket. The only way this could backfire on them is if Rom gets elected and dies while in office -- the latter scenario being more unlikely than the former, but not by much!

Boxcar

[elysiantraveller]

Ryan wants to change Medicare from a program in which Medicare pays for services I require directly, to a program where Medicare pays me to buy insurance premiums which then may or may not pay for the services I require. And it does this after I have already paid all my working life (Since 1965) to be a part of the Medicare program. So he's taking my money and giving it back to me so I can pay it out again to get something I thought I already had. Am I lying?

Yes.

Ryan's plan will do absolutely nothing to you or your precious Medicare. It will affect me not you. I'm glad he is bringing it up too because I don't want to work till I'm 80 years old to pay off the debt your irresponsible generation is all too glad to heap on us...

You sound like a child whining about stuff you know nothing about.

[Lefty]

SS is now paying out more than it takes in and the dims say everything is peachy. Obama spends money like water and preaches fiscal responsibility.
When anyone wants to cut or change ANYTHING, the dims start putting out ads to scare seniors.

[badcompany]

Socialism comes in many forms and you are confusing Communism with Socialism when you talk about dictatorship. By definition pure Socialism is democratic. In the real world, however, Socialism, like any other "ism" gets distorted by the lust for power. The traditional Socialism of the Scandinavian countries is a far cry from what you describe because democracy thrives there. In 2011 The Economist Intelligence Group, hardly a liberal organization, ranked the U.S. 19th in the world in supporting democratic ideals. Every country in Scandinavia was among the top 10. Most have a higher standard of living than the U.S. and most manage to stay out of other countries' business.

The U.S. loves to extol the virtue of elections as the key to democracy. Yet when internationally-monitored elections are held in so-called socialist countries there is outrage when the "wrong" side wins. American misunderstanding and hypocrisy about Socialism is mind-boggling. What were all those poor fools thinking when they elected FDR four times?

I expected to get the "you don't understand Socialism" speech and darnitt if you didn't disappoint.

Call it what you want, when the state controls everything, it's Socialism, and whether you admit it or not your position is inconsistent. You can't go on about a Police state and be perfectly content with the state having complete control over your healthcare.

As a Ron Paul Libertarian, I am consistent, limited government, period. So, I happen to agree with your position on foreign interventions, just not in a leftist America hating kinda way.

[badcompany]

BS.
Name one country with half the people the USA has, and then name one that pays for ALL illegals, no questions asked.

Being a socialist is easy when you don't know sit about reality.

They also conveniently leave out the fact that those countries benefit from the billions those "Neoliberal" pharma companies spend on R&D.

[badcompany]

[QUOTE=Saratoga_Mike]


But why should I be surprised? The U.S. is a country born, nurtured and raised out of slavery and genocide. The justification of that legacy survives to this day and you apparently are OK with it.



Was slavery an American phenomenon, or a worldwide practice that had gone on for thousands of years in almost every culture?

Typical Chomsky Leftist, take America to task for everything without providing any context.

[Lefty]

All the lefties and some righties decry that Obama no Socialist. But Obummer himself said 'he wants to do for other industries what he has done for the car companies' i.e take them over.
If that isn't Socialism, pray tell, what the hell is?

[badcompany]

All the lefties and some righties decry that Obama no Socialist. But Obummer himself said 'he wants to do for other industries what he has done for the car companies' i.e take them over.
If that isn't Socialism, pray tell, what the hell is?

It's the old expression that success has a thousand fathers but failure is an orphan.

Socialism could have its own orphanage.

[jdhanover]

I rarely chime in here but enjoy the, uh, banter.

My 2 cents:
1 - all four of the people in question are intelligent. You may disagree with policies or actions of 2 of the four (since everyone here seems divided) but these are not dumb guys. Misspeaking in front of a camera (which these guys are in front of a lot) doesn't make a guy dumb. The only recent P/VP who I could question the intelligence of is Palin. But she turned her VP run into something like a $15 million/year gig so can't label her dumb either.
2- All the talk of socialism (and worse, Nazis) is terribly off base IMO. None of these guys really talk anything near 'radical'.
3- Ryan is, in my mind, not a great pick only because I think Romney would have been much better off with a female VP. He has problems with women and I don't see how he fixes that now. Ryan isn't a 'bad' guy but he will fuel the Democrats' fire so to speak. So how does that really help Romney? Firing up the base? Maybe, but I think the base votes for him regardless. These elections are won/lost in the middle.

[johnhannibalsmith]

...I think Romney would have been much better off with a female VP...

That might be true if there was an available, beneficial option. I don't see one. Bachmann would attract too much negative attention every time she spoke on or off-topic, Rice was a no-go, and they needed SOMEONE wtih an iota of spunk to boost the charisma of the ticket, someone perceived to be fiscally conservative, and someone that was an established brand.

I simply don't see that many people on the fence about whether or not they are going this way or that way - mostly just those that are on the fence about going at all. The female vote is just an inherent GOP obstacle that I don't think has a resolution as simple as firing off a token woman for consumption.

Conservative women will vote against Obama and probably (guessing) vote on a per capita basis more often than liberal women do - which is why the Democrats are always inventing women's issues where they never or barely existed to draw the ire of those that might pass on a cycle (election, that is). Liberal women seem to view conservative women the way that blacks view conservative blacks - as traitorous. I'm not sure a woman on a GOP ticket has the desired impact - in the end, it may just give the opposition yet another excuse to interject gender to the equation and rile up the "liberal woman" vote.

I'm johnhannibalsmith, and I'm not sure of this message.

[Tom]

[QUOTE=Steve R]

Was slavery an American phenomenon, or a worldwide practice that had gone on for thousands of years in almost every culture?

Typical Chomsky Leftist, take America to task for everything without providing any context.

America was born from a dream. It was no more born out of slavery than it was out of colonization. Slavery was NOT a product of America - it was a common practice of all those so-called enlightened socialist single payer nation this jerk applauds. But old Stevie never let facts get in the way if his vile babbling.

[ArlJim78]

2- All the talk of socialism (and worse, Nazis) is terribly off base IMO. None of these guys really talk anything near 'radical'.
3- Ryan is, in my mind, not a great pick only because I think Romney would have been much better off with a female VP. He has problems with women and I don't see how he fixes that now. Ryan isn't a 'bad' guy but he will fuel the Democrats' fire so to speak. So how does that really help Romney? Firing up the base? Maybe, but I think the base votes for him regardless. These elections are won/lost in the middle.
regarding 2 - It's not radical to run against capitalism in the United States?
What do you call it if not socialism when the main objective of the president is to redistribute wealth? You do realize that all of the presidents mentors were communists and subversives, that's not radical? Suing states who try to control illegal immigration or the integrity of elections is not radical? Instructing the IRS not to investigate billions of fraudalent payments made to illegals, or telling the border patrol not to enfore the law, or gutting the only successful bipartisan welfare reform in our lifetime by executive order with no prior notice or consultation with congress is not radical?
we're far beyond radical at this point.

3- women want the same things as men. Ryan is smart and competent, why that would not sell to the "middle" or women is beyond me. you can't base your VP selection on the lunatic rants of the left or the MSM. people look for leadership, and pandering to various demographic constituencies, or trying to be liked by your opponents comes across as nothing more than pandering. it's weak and the opposite of leadership.
besides that, based on the polling I've seen Ryan does well with women.

[Tom]

2- All the talk of socialism (and worse, Nazis) is terribly off base IMO. None of these guys really talk anything near 'radical'.

OBama has DONE radical, he is well past talking about it.
To call him a socialist is pretty spot on, I would say. No one has called him a Nazi - if you read my post, I liken his progress as a close parallel to Hitler's rise to power in 1930s Germany.......what he would eventually would or could become is up to you, but he has already discussed death panels, even though the libs will argue he hasn't. They just cannont use the true description of what he has stated many time already.

[horses4courses]

http://l1.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/120811/romney_ryan_reuters_split_uni.jpg

[Valuist]

Ryan and Romney want to offer solutions to undo the crap the current administration has put thru, or wants. All team Obama wants to do is sling mud and accusations. I guess if I was in their position, with their record, I would try to deflect as much attention away from the current issues.

Anyone with an IQ over 50 should see that. Unfortunately most get their political knowledge from SNL or Comedy Central.

[elysiantraveller]

Anyone with an IQ over 50 should see that. Unfortunately most get their political knowledge from SNL or Comedy Central.

Even comedy central has been firing broadsides into the Democratic campaign. Its a weird election...

[NJ Stinks]

Yes.

Ryan's plan will do absolutely nothing to you or your precious Medicare. It will affect me not you. I'm glad he is bringing it up too because I don't want to work till I'm 80 years old to pay off the debt your irresponsible generation is all too glad to heap on us...

You sound like a child whining about stuff you know nothing about.

This post is repugnant. So is Isbets where he blames the left for debts his children wll be burdened with.

The right has been cutting taxes for at least 30 years. Any nitwit knows if you keep doing that, sooner or later you won't be able to pay your bills.

The right screams for de-regulation of the financial industry and the end result is 2008 recession.

The right no longer has a problem fighting wars (Iraq & Afghanistan) while cutting taxes. Further, the right had no problem borrowing money to fight those wars while feasting on the Bush tax cuts.

The right and left have no problem watching US jobs disappear in the name of greater profits for a few. Sooner or later our economy had to feel the loss of so many jobs. And today we do.

So now you have decided that it's Mostpost's selfishness that has screwed you and your kids. For guys who think they have it all figured out, you've got nothing figured out.

[Lefty]

stinky, let me get this straight, if they cut my taxes and put more money in my pocket I can't pay my bills?
But if Obama raises my taxes and takes money out of my pocket then I should have no trble paying my bills?
Doesn't sound quite right. Hmmm...

[NJ Stinks]

stinky, let me get this straight, if they cut my taxes and put more money in my pocket I can't pay my bills?
But if Obama raises my taxes and takes money out of my pocket then I should have no trble paying my bills?
Doesn't sound quite right. Hmmm...

Lefty, every time you rejoiced because of a tax cut, the opposite effect was that the government had to borrow more money to pay it's bills.

[elysiantraveller]

This post is repugnant. So is Isbets where he blames the left for debts his children wll be burdened with.

Apparently you missed that I wasn't making a left/right point but a generational one... However since we are on the topic of things we find repugnant allow me.

1) I find it absolutely repugnant that someone like Mosty will personify policy and what it does specifically for him... especially when it has absolutely ZERO impact on him and he is just too damn lazy to educate himself.

2) Its repugnant that you even mention tax cuts when YOUR President, YOUR House, and YOUR Senate extended all of them. If your parties solution is to just tax our way of this problem then at least have the @#$%ing balls to do it.

3) Its repugnant that in the past couple of weeks a United States Presidential candidate has been accused of A) Not paying taxes for a decade B) Shaming his dead father C) Being a felon and D) Killing someone.

4) Its repugnant that your generation (there it is again) has decided fingerpointing now trumps ideas and solutions.

I'm not blaming the left... I'm blaming everyone. As I type this I am almost four decades away from retirement age and my share of the National Debt is $139,866. So please keep blaming people the likes of Paul Ryan. While he at least is attempting to solve some of these problems you are making funny videos of him pushing Grandma's off of cliffs. While you sit there and point your finger at GOP tax cuts the people YOU put in office are busy extending them...

Thats what I find repugnant.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Yes, in terms of what he might do. No, in terms of his chances of winning.

Then why did you double your intended donation amount?

[ArlJim78]

Lefty, every time you rejoiced because of a tax cut, the opposite effect was that the government had to borrow more money to pay it's bills.
the government borrows money whether or not there is a tax cut.
its not like we are one healthy tax hike away from being in balance.

do you rejoice when your taxes are hiked?

[Saratoga_Mike]

I didn't mean to imply that -- but I am saying that because Ryan is more conservative than Rom, this was the Establishment's safe and calculated pick for the second spot on the ticket. The only way this could backfire on them is if Rom gets elected and dies while in office -- the latter scenario being more unlikely than the former, but not by much!

Boxcar

I see.

Could you please name five or six leaders of the Rep Establishment? Second, you think they told Romney who to pick?

[mostpost]

Obama went on do do nothing, he was a doper in HS,
Already disproven

he was a zero in college, nobody even can remember him in college, no papers or grades
He did well enough at Occidental to get into Columbia and well enough at Columbia to get into Harvard Law School. At Harvard Law school he did well enough to graduate Magna Cum Laude. You do not get that through affirmative action. As for the charge that no one can remember him at Columbia, they just have not asked the right people. Michael Baron, one of Obama's professors at Columbia remembers him very well and says Obama easily aced his course.

Ten years after I graduated from SIU, I could not have told you the name of a single person in any of my classes unless they also lived in my dorm.


, he was a zero in the private sector as well, then he fled to Chicago to become a huckster and Alinsky disciple.
The zero was able to go from research assistant to financial writer at a consulting firm in a few months. Where do you get the idea that he was a disciple of Saul Alinsky. Alinsky died when Obama was 11. Alinsky preached confrontation and disruption. Obama has always been about concession and compromise. They were both community organizers. That does not mean they were the same.



a complete fraud and failure, who most sensible people recognize as the worst president in history.
George W. Bush; Herbert Hoover, Calvin Coolidge, Warren Harding, William McKinley, James Buchanan, Ulyses Grant, John Adams. Those are names that sensible people think of when discussing worst presidents. But, of course, you did not mean sensible; you meant conservative. The two are not the same.

[Saratoga_Mike]

George W. Bush; Herbert Hoover, Calvin Coolidge, Warren Harding, William McKinley, James Buchanan, Ulyses Grant, John Adams. Those are names that sensible people think of when discussing worst presidents. But, of course, you did not mean sensible; you meant conservative. The two are not the same.

I'd bet $1,000 you don't know the first thing about Coolidge. I want you to be honest, have you ever read a biography on Coolidge? Without going to Wikepedia, I want you to tell me why Coolidge was a bad president.

I do agree GWB was a bad president, needlessly starting a war in Iraq and spending like there was no tomorrow.

[Lefty]

Lefty, every time you rejoiced because of a tax cut, the opposite effect was that the government had to borrow more money to pay it's bills.

stinky, obama has borrowed and spent more money in less than 4 years than "w" did in 8!

Tax cuts stimulate business that's been proven everytime it's been tried even when JFK did it!

Tax raises hurts the economy because the money goes to government to waste instead of private enterprise to stimulate growth.

It's Economics 101.

[NJ Stinks]

the government borrows money whether or not there is a tax cut.
its not like we are one healthy tax hike away from being in balance.

do you rejoice when your taxes are hiked?

No I don't.

Here's a simple lesson on how things really work. Back around 1993, Christie Whitman ran for governor of NJ. With a week to go before the election, she was down in the polls. So Whitman promised to cut all NJ taxes across the board by 30% if she won. She won the election.

The only problem was the NJ government could not afford a 30% tax cut and still pay it's bills. So Whitman decided to stop paying money into the state pension fund while still declaring she was offering a balanced budget every year. Other NJ governors did the same thing in succeeding years including Christie this year.

Today NJ's biggest debt is to these state pension funds. Naturally, Christie and the GOP are blaming greedy state employees for the problem.

Anyway, the point is tax cuts are great when they are affordable. Just like a business that gives everyone a raise when things are going well.

Link: http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/12/nj_pension_shortfall_grows_mor.html

[ArlJim78]

The three-day international conference of communist and workers’ parties began on Friday amidst a call to intensify popular struggles and expand solidarities in the wake of the current world capitalist crisis.


So confident are communist leaders of the solution they can offer to current crisis in capitalism that even the leader of Communist Party of USA, Scott Marshall, said, “There could not have been a better time to be a communist in USA than this.”


no doubt, they're made significant inroads having conquered the democratic party.

[mostpost]

Yes, you are. You said Ryan wants to destroy Medicare. He doesn't. He wants to reform it. You are also lying when you say his changes would affect you. You will continue to receive a giant transfer of wealth from my generation and my children's generation to yours. Nothing will change for you. You did not pay enough in your lifetime to cover what your costs will be, and the unfunded portion will be paid for by those who are still working.

So you lied twice. First when you said he wants to destroy the program, then when you said the proposed changes would apply to you.
Ryan wants to destroy Social Security and Medicare. That's his program; that is the program of all of you conservatives. It has been stated an infinite number of times here. But Ryan realizes he can't destroy those programs so he is trying to change it in ways that will prevent it from doing what it presently does. His ultimate goal is to destroy all social programs.

If the Ryan changes don't effect me personally, they certainly do effect those who enter the program post-2022. They will contribute to the program, but instead of the program paying for needed procedures and surgeries it will just give them that money back to help them pay for insurance.

[NJ Stinks]

stinky, obama has borrowed and spent more money in less than 4 years than "w" did in 8!

Tax cuts stimulate business that's been proven everytime it's been tried even when JFK did it!

Tax raises hurts the economy because the money goes to government to waste instead of private enterprise to stimulate growth.

It's Economics 101.

Economics 101 has us where we are today.

[Lefty]

The dims and Obama have us where we are today. He keeps preaching fiscal responsibility and does nothing but spend spend spend.
What happens when we can no longer borrow money? We have already been downgraded during this admin.

Everytime taxes have been cut we prospered.


Do you really think we can spend our way into prosperity?
Will you even admit that Obama has spent more money in 3+ yrs than Bush did in 8?

[Lefty]

If nothing is done about SS and Medicare no one will need to destroy them-They will just die. Since dims unwilling to change anything, I think this is Exactly what they want. Then they can just put us all under one GIANT program.
Eh, Comrade?

[mostpost]

I'd bet $1,000 you don't know the first thing about Coolidge. I want you to be honest, have you ever read a biography on Coolidge? Without going to Wikepedia, I want you to tell me why Coolidge was a bad president.

I do agree GWB was a bad president, needlessly starting a war in Iraq and spending like there was no tomorrow.
Coolidge did nothing while he was president. That was his philosophy of government. Do Nothing. He did not believe in regulation. He thought business should be left strictly alone to do whatever it wanted regardless of consequence. He would have fit right in on this board.

Maybe saying he was one of the worst is a little strong. He was a cipher.

[Steve R]

stinky, let me get this straight, if they cut my taxes and put more money in my pocket I can't pay my bills?
But if Obama raises my taxes and takes money out of my pocket then I should have no trble paying my bills?
Doesn't sound quite right. Hmmm...
That's right. With lower taxes you'll be able to pay for all the iCrap and six-packs you want while the roads and bridges that carry you to work continue to crumble before your eyes and more children live with poverty, hunger and disease. But I'm with you. Any policy or activity that accelerates the demise of U.S. power and influence in the world has to be a good thing. And there are so many things out there now capable of facilitating an even faster decline: lower tax rates skewed to benefit the oligarchs, a Romney-Ryan administration (or an Obama-Biden administration, take your pick), ever expanding wars, under-educated students (or should I say really dumb students), the destruction of the middle class, the growing gap between the rich and the poor (which throughout history repeatedly has led to the poor rising up and killing the rich), a repulsively obese and increasingly unhealthy population, the developing police/security state. It's all good...for those fortunate enough not to live in 21st century America. As the legendary American intellectual, George W. Bush, remarked: "Bring it on!"

[Saratoga_Mike]

Coolidge did nothing while he was president. That was his philosophy of government. Do Nothing. He did not believe in regulation. He thought business should be left strictly alone to do whatever it wanted regardless of consequence. He would have fit right in on this board.

Maybe saying he was one of the worst is a little strong. He was a cipher.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Start by reading the late historian Robert Sobel's book on Coolidge. You might learn something.

[NJ Stinks]

Apparently you missed that I wasn't making a left/right point but a generational one... However since we are on the topic of things we find repugnant allow me.

1) I find it absolutely repugnant that someone like Mosty will personify policy and what it does specifically for him... especially when it has absolutely ZERO impact on him and he is just too damn lazy to educate himself.

2) Its repugnant that you even mention tax cuts when YOUR President, YOUR House, and YOUR Senate extended all of them. If your parties solution is to just tax our way of this problem then at least have the @#$%ing balls to do it.

3) Its repugnant that in the past couple of weeks a United States Presidential candidate has been accused of A) Not paying taxes for a decade B) Shaming his dead father C) Being a felon and D) Killing someone.

4) Its repugnant that your generation (there it is again) has decided fingerpointing now trumps ideas and solutions.

I'm not blaming the left... I'm blaming everyone. As I type this I am almost four decades away from retirement age and my share of the National Debt is $139,866. So please keep blaming people the likes of Paul Ryan. While he at least is attempting to solve some of these problems you are making funny videos of him pushing Grandma's off of cliffs. While you sit there and point your finger at GOP tax cuts the people YOU put in office are busy extending them...

Thats what I find repugnant.

If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be happy either.

When any Republican in a leadership position addresses the need for additional tax revenue via higher taxes, I will take him seriously. That includes Paul Ryan.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Coolidge did nothing while he was president. That was his philosophy of government. Do Nothing. He did not believe in regulation. He thought business should be left strictly alone to do whatever it wanted regardless of consequence. He would have fit right in on this board.

Maybe saying he was one of the worst is a little strong. He was a cipher.

Oy vey. He was a government downsizer indeed, but saying that he did nothing - especially as a social liberal that supports civil rights and someone that believes the tax burden should fall squarely on the uppermost - is just being willfilly ignorant.

[porchy44]

The right and left have no problem watching US jobs disappear in the name of greater profits for a few. Sooner or later our economy had to feel the loss of so many jobs.


Ding Ding Ding!!!

The reason for the USA economic problems. Stay tuned because the economy is going to get a whole lot worse because of it.

[Lefty]

That's right. With lower taxes you'll be able to pay for all the iCrap and six-packs you want while the roads and bridges that carry you to work continue to crumble before your eyes and more children live with poverty, hunger and disease. But I'm with you. Any policy or activity that accelerates the demise of U.S. power and influence in the world has to be a good thing. And there are so many things out there now capable of facilitating an even faster decline: lower tax rates skewed to benefit the oligarchs, a Romney-Ryan administration (or an Obama-Biden administration, take your pick), ever expanding wars, under-educated students (or should I say really dumb students), the destruction of the middle class, the growing gap between the rich and the poor (which throughout history repeatedly has led to the poor rising up and killing the rich), a repulsively obese and increasingly unhealthy population, the developing police/security state. It's all good...for those fortunate enough not to live in 21st century America. As the legendary American intellectual, George W. Bush, remarked: "Bring it on!"

I thought the Stimulus money was supposed to fix all those roads and bridges? What happened to that? Oh yeah, most of it went overseas!

[Steve R]

Apparently you missed that I wasn't making a left/right point but a generational one... However since we are on the topic of things we find repugnant allow me.

1) I find it absolutely repugnant that someone like Mosty will personify policy and what it does specifically for him... especially when it has absolutely ZERO impact on him and he is just too damn lazy to educate himself.

2) Its repugnant that you even mention tax cuts when YOUR President, YOUR House, and YOUR Senate extended all of them. If your parties solution is to just tax our way of this problem then at least have the @#$%ing balls to do it.

3) Its repugnant that in the past couple of weeks a United States Presidential candidate has been accused of A) Not paying taxes for a decade B) Shaming his dead father C) Being a felon and D) Killing someone.

4) Its repugnant that your generation (there it is again) has decided fingerpointing now trumps ideas and solutions.

I'm not blaming the left... I'm blaming everyone. As I type this I am almost four decades away from retirement age and my share of the National Debt is $139,866. So please keep blaming people the likes of Paul Ryan. While he at least is attempting to solve some of these problems you are making funny videos of him pushing Grandma's off of cliffs. While you sit there and point your finger at GOP tax cuts the people YOU put in office are busy extending them...

Thats what I find repugnant.
Ryan is attempting to solve some of the problems? Bullshit!

Cut your defense budget in half (and you will still be spending 2 1/2 times as much as the next country or as much as the next four countries combined) and go to a single payer health care system (already shown throughout the world to cost from 1/2 to 1/3 as much as the U.S. pays today and with better outcomes as measured by life expectancy, infant mortality and maternal mortality) and not only is the deficit is gone in a year but there would be a surplus.

[Tom]

Comparing the US to other countries, many smaller than some of our states is just ridiculous.

But you knew that, right?

[Lefty]

Stevie, and as for those poor dumb students they are mostly being educated by liberals, that's why they're so dumb. Then they get 18 and vote for liberals. That's how community organizers get elected to President.

[Lefty]

Yeah, let's cut that defense budget to shreds and prosper. Only thing is, we'll all be speaking Chinese in a very short time.

[elysiantraveller]

Ryan is attempting to solve some of the problems? Bullshit!

Cut your defense budget in half (and you will still be spending 2 1/2 times as much as the next country or as much as the next four countries combined) and go to a single payer health care system (already shown throughout the world to cost from 1/2 to 1/3 as much as the U.S. pays today and with better outcomes as measured by life expectancy, infant mortality and maternal mortality) and not only is the deficit is gone in a year but there would be a surplus.

Okay I went a step further and just removed the defense budget...

We still are running a 400 billion dollar deficit...

Thanks for the red herring...

Try again.

The defense budget Steve? Come on, you are better than that... :faint:

[elysiantraveller]

If I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be happy either.

When any Republican in a leadership position addresses the need for additional tax revenue via higher taxes, I will take him seriously. That includes Paul Ryan.

You President hasn't done anything to raise tax revenue... Every single proposal he has offered is a tax cut in some way or another so tell me exactly how he is ANY different? Of I forgot he has a D next to him name.

Give me just one example.

At least my guys will do something...

[Steve R]

Okay I went a step further and just removed the defense budget...

We still are running a 400 billion dollar deficit...

Thanks for the red herring...

Try again.

The defense budget Steve? Come on, you are better than that... :faint:
The US federal budget for 2013 earmarks $1 trillion 80 billion for public funding of health care. Since the OECD single payer countries spend 1/2 to 1/3 per capita on health care (again with far better outcomes), a single payer system could save the U.S. government between $540 billion and $720 billion in 2013, not to mention the hundreds of billions that would be saved by private citizens. I guess to some the parasitic health insurance industry (the real death panels) is something worth preserving.

Yeah, the defense budget. Estimates are there are 5,000 megatons of destructive force in the world's nuclear arsenal. One 100 megaton air burst would create a nuclear winter lasting decades. So I guess you're right. Current levels of defense spending are appropriate after all. And you do have to keep the baby killers in business. Heaven knows most of them couldn't handle a real job.

[elysiantraveller]

The US federal budget for 2013 earmarks $1 trillion 80 billion for public funding of health care. Since the OECD single payer countries spend 1/2 to 1/3 per capita on health care (again with far better outcomes), a single payer system could save the U.S. government between $540 billion and $720 billion in 2013, not to mention the hundreds of billions that would be saved by private citizens. I guess to some the parasitic health insurance industry (the real death panels) is something worth preserving.

Yeah, the defense budget. Estimates are there are 5,000 megatons of destructive force in the world's nuclear arsenal. One 100 megaton air burst would create a nuclear winter lasting decades. So I guess you're right. Current levels of defense spending are appropriate after all. And you do have to keep the baby killers in business. Heaven knows most of them couldn't handle a real job.

Priceless...

First its because of defense spending and now its because we don't have a single payor system.

No the real problem is we spend more than we take in and its projected to get a lot worse.

But I guess you are right if we could, somehow, institute a single payor system like the ones in those European countries (Some with populations smaller than NYC) AND find a way to spend "negative" dollars on national defense....

We just might be able to eke out a surplus.

:faint:

[mostpost]

Apparently you missed that I wasn't making a left/right point but a generational one... However since we are on the topic of things we find repugnant allow me.

1) I find it absolutely repugnant that someone like Mosty will personify policy and what it does specifically for him... especially when it has absolutely ZERO impact on him and he is just too damn lazy to educate himself.
I am not personifying policy. I am personalizing it. And what I said will be absolutely true for those who enroll after 2022. Medicare is pay for service. Ryan wants to turn it into pay for premiums.


2) Its repugnant that you even mention tax cuts when YOUR President, YOUR House, and YOUR Senate extended all of them. If your parties solution is to just tax our way of this problem then at least have the @#$%ing balls to do it.
Do you understand how the Senate works? Nothing can be done without 60 votes. The Democrats were forced to extend the tax cuts for the rich in order to extend them for those who needed them. And you have a heckuva nerve criticizing the Democrats for extending the cuts when you would have been even more apoplectic had they been able to end them.


3) Its repugnant that in the past couple of weeks a United States Presidential candidate has been accused of A) Not paying taxes for a decade B) Shaming his dead father C) Being a felon and D) Killing someone.
a) We won't know until he releases his returns. There has to be something in there otherwise why won't he release them. Maybe he did something illegal, maybe he did something that allowed him to avoid taxes legally, but left him with the appearance of caring more about his personal fortunes than those of his country. In other words maybe he acted like a Republican. b) do you know for sure his father would not have been ashamed. Reid's statement was an opinion. I tend to share it. c) I don't know where this came from, but Romney obviously can't be a felon until he is convicted of something. Felon in waiting would be more appropriate. d) I thought seamus was still alive.

4) Its repugnant that your generation (there it is again) has decided fingerpointing now trumps ideas and solutions.
You have this one backwards. It's your generation that is accusing mine of all manner of perfidy. My generation paid the 70% taxes. My generation fought the last real war we were in; one in which there were five times the casualties that there were in the middle east. Your generation cut taxes in half. Your generation is the one that looks out only for itself. The "Me" generation I believe they call it. A greedy, selfish, self centered generation if ever there was one.
Oh, you're ideas and solutions suck too.



I'm not blaming the left... I'm blaming everyone. As I type this I am almost four decades away from retirement age and my share of the National Debt is $139,866. So please keep blaming people the likes of Paul Ryan. While he at least is attempting to solve some of these problems you are making funny videos of him pushing Grandma's off of cliffs. While you sit there and point your finger at GOP tax cuts the people YOU put in office are busy extending them...

Thats what I find repugnant.

If you are currently almost four decades away from retirement, you must be in your late twenties. Knowing this, I suddenly feel more sorrow than anger. You have spent your entire life exposed to the conservative propaganda machine. Chances are Rush and Hannity and Fox News is all you have ever known about politics. More than likely your college econ classes were based on the teachings of Milton Friedman and the Austrian School. You never had the opportunity to learn what liberalism was really all about. Were never taught the role organized labor played in making this the most prosperous nation in history.

The really sad part is how you refuse to learn.

[Lefty]

Stevie, then why do people in Canada and England come here for healthcare?
Hint: long waits...

[johnhannibalsmith]

...We won't know until he releases his returns. There has to be something in there otherwise why won't he release them. Maybe he did something illegal...

You sound a lot like the folks using the identical argument to knock your Dear Leader.

[lsbets]

Pray tell mostlylying, what constitutes a real war and what the hell do you know about one? Do the battles of mail delivery count?

On the tax returns you sound like a birther. Not only are you a proven liar, you're a loon too.

[lsbets]

If you are currently almost four decades away from retirement, you must be in your late twenties. Knowing this, I suddenly feel more sorrow than anger. You have spent your entire life exposed to the conservative propaganda machine. Chances are Rush and Hannity and Fox News is all you have ever known about politics. More than likely your college econ classes were based on the teachings of Milton Friedman and the Austrian School. You never had the opportunity to learn what liberalism was really all about. Were never taught the role organized labor played in making this the most prosperous nation in history.

The really sad part is how you refuse to learn.

You are really delusional. Do you use drugs? If you do, you should stop. If not, maybe you should start.

[elysiantraveller]

You are really delusional. Do you use drugs? If you do, you should stop. If not, maybe you should start.

He is so dumb its impossible to talk to him.

I have forgotten more about Marx than he has ever read but he is going to lecture me...

Should just stick to Hcap, NJ, and Steve because at least they can articulate a point and appeal to reason beyond their own biases.

[Lefty]

mosty, liberalism is blaring at us from everywhere. The newspapers, the free tv, channels and even the school system.

In order to be exposed to Conservatism, one must seek it out.

[Tom]

You are really delusional. Do you use drugs? If you do, you should stop. If not, maybe you should start.

Someone said that to Obama once. :eek:

[mostpost]

I thought the Stimulus money was supposed to fix all those roads and bridges? What happened to that? Oh yeah, most of it went overseas!

First of all only about ten percent of the stimulus was for infrastructure. Almost 30% went to tax breaks. We would have been better off if that were reversed.

Most of it went overseas.
I'm sitting here thinking, WTF is he talking about?
I guess you are referring to Fisker (A Finnish auto company) which was given $529M in loans and loan guarantees. ALL OF WHICH HAD TO BE SPENT IN THE UNITED STATES. The money is being used at Fisker plants located in the United States. Plants that will provide jobs for Americans.

Two things.
These are loans and traditionally loans are paid back. Until you have some evidence that they will not be paid back you have no case.
$529M is not most of the stimulus. It is one half of one percent.

[mostpost]

There is so much ignorance and misinformation in this thread that I am finding it impossible to keep up. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

There is so much ignorance and misinformation in this thread that I am finding it impossible to keep up.Is that code for you're getting your butt kicked and have run out of refutations that only mental midgets would buy?

[Lefty]

Evidence, hmmm. Doesn't GM still owe us about 40 billion?
And the Solyndra money and other such companies is completely down the drain. Hear that sucking sound?

[lsbets]

There is so much ignorance and misinformation in my head that I am finding it impossible to keep up. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

FYP

[mostpost]

Pray tell mostlylying, what constitutes a real war and what the hell do you know about one? Do the battles of mail delivery count?

On the tax returns you sound like a birther. Not only are you a proven liar, you're a loon too.A "real" war is a war between two countries not between a country and a rag tag group of fanatics. It has nothing to do with the actions of the individual soldiers.

I have respect for our soldiers and their leaders. I used to have respect for you. I no longer do. You substitute insult for argument; anger for discussion and acronymns for name calling. FYP? say it out and let the moderators decide if it is appropriate.

[PaceAdvantage]

You substitute insult for argument; anger for discussion and acronymns for name calling. FYP? say it out and let the moderators decide if it is appropriate.FIXED YOUR POST.

There. Approved.

[PaceAdvantage]

It's a twist on the tried and true FTFY (FIXED THAT FOR YOU), used when quoting someone and altering the quote to say what you think it really means.

[Rookies]

Stevie, then why do people in Canada and England come here for healthcare?
Hint: long waits...

You're not so irrationally blind with partisanship that you are unaware it works the other way as well, right?

[lsbets]

A "real" war is a war between two countries not between a country and a rag tag group of fanatics. It has nothing to do with the actions of the individual soldiers.

I have respect for our soldiers and their leaders. I used to have respect for you. I no longer do. You substitute insult for argument; anger for discussion and acronymns for name calling. FYP? say it out and let the moderators decide if it is appropriate.

Do you know how pitiful you are?

You think you know what a war is, when you have no clue. You say the last real war was fought by your generation (and you did not fight it). That is an insult to everyone who served and died in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan and everywhere else we have deployed since 1945. Ask any combat vet from any generation if the current wars are real, and they will give you an answer. And don't give me that bullshit that you respect our soldiers. If you did, you never would have said that.

You tell people how to raise their kids, yet you have none yourself.

You say all those who are successful cheated to get there, when the closest you have ever come to success if watching an episode of Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.

You are like Gollum hiding in his cave. A pitiful creature who might evoke momentary sympathy and pity, but who is really worth nothing more than revulsion.

And then you throw a fit about FYP. :lol: :lol:

That means Fixed Your Post you moron.

[Rookies]

That means Fixed Your Post.

Segue: Did not know that me-self and Mosty might have thought it was a close cousin to...

FY

THAT one I know...;)

[NJ Stinks]

Do you know how pitiful you are?





Disagree all you want.

The personal attacks are pathetic.

[lsbets]

Disagree all you want.

The personal attacks are pathetic.

They've been well earned. The douche said the war my friends died in wasn't real, he's also said I don't think about my children. He hates anyone who has succeeded in life. You don't have to read them if they bother you. It's not like you haven't put me on ignore before.

[mostpost]

FIXED YOUR POST.

There. Approved.

I was not familiar with that acronym and I did not see the words in bold.
Never the less it is not unreasonable that FYP could mean *(%$ You pardner. He is from Texas after all.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was not familiar with that acronym and I did not see the words in bold.
Never the less it is not unreasonable that FYP could mean *(%$ You pardner. He is from Texas after all.pardner? :lol:

I would hazard a guess that lsbets has never in his life used the term "pardner."

I could be wrong. But I'm betting I'm not.

[lsbets]

pardner? :lol:

I would hazard a guess that lsbets has never in his life used the term "pardner."

I could be wrong. But I'm betting I'm not.

I don't think I've heard anyone in our generation say pardner, have you PA?

I also don't think I've ever been restrained in using profanity when I felt it was appropriate.

[NJ Stinks]

They've been well earned. The douche said the war my friends died in wasn't real, he's also said I don't think about my children. He hates anyone who has succeeded in life. You don't have to read them if they bother you. It's not like you haven't put me on ignore before.

I'm not putting you on ignore again.

[PaceAdvantage]

And where the heck did he come up with pardner? Postman would have been a much better theory.... :lol:

[lsbets]

I'm not putting you on ignore again.

Is that a threat? :lol:

Just so you don't misunderstand, that was a joke. It almost reads like a threat.

[lsbets]

And where the heck did he come up with pardner? Postman would have been a much better theory.... :lol:

That would have been clever. Can you add things to urban dictionary? :lol:

[mostpost]

It's a twist on the tried and true FTFY (FIXED THAT FOR YOU), used when quoting someone and altering the quote to say what you think it really means.
I think it's more like altering it to say what you want it to mean.

[Tom]

Yup.

POS = President of Some.

:rolleyes:

[mostpost]

You sound a lot like the folks using the identical argument to knock your Dear Leader.
There is a big difference. On the one hand you have Romney and his refusal to release multiple years of his tax records-I believe eleven has become the standard. Tax records tell us a lot about how a person conducts their business. Do they use loopholes to avoid taxes that most of us would be paying. Maybe it is not illegal, but it leaves a bad taste. Do they hide money in off shore accounts thus releasing them from the obligation of paying taxes on that money. If you want to be President of the United States, you ought to support the United States. Did you invest in a company that bends the rules or one that makes profit off the misfortunes of others-i.e. Bain Capital. These are all important questions which Romney does not seem to want to answer.

On the other hand you have the matter of Obama'a collage grades. College grades are not traditionally a matter for examination. I don't think any candidate was questioned about his grades before Obama. I googled "Romney's college grades" and found no links showing that he has released them. I found a lot of links of people asking where they can be found.

I recall seeing a few stories about George W. Bush with a few of the grades he received at Yale, but never a full transcript. If anyone can show me that it has been commonplace for Presidential candidates to release their college transcripts then I will consider changing my opinion. Until then releasing tax returns and releasing college transcripts are two different animals.

[rastajenk]

I think the most important aspect of releasing information about The O's college career is whether or not he was a "foreign" student at Occidental.

Another aspect is seeing whether his grades were sufficient on their own for him to go on to Columbia and Harvard.

He supposed to be so smart. How simple would it be to back up that claim with some openness about his college career?

[mostpost]

Is that code for you're getting your butt kicked and have run out of refutations that only mental midgets would buy?
No. It's code for "I can't believe how those guys ignore facts and cling to their ridiculous dogma.

I have guys on hear telling me that Ryan wants to save Medicare. Altering something so that it is unrecognizable and changing its fundamental form is not saving it, even if you do keep the name.

Lefty tells me that Social Security is already broke, when I know that we will not begin dipping into the trust fund for another 20+ years. You all try to tell me that the only way to save the program is to raise the retirement age and cut the benefits. But studies tell us that removing the cap on contributions would make the program solvent for thousands of years at least.

I keep hearing that our problem is not revenue it is spending. But our deficits and debt only began to soar when we cut our tax rates in the 80's. The Bush tax cuts were responsible for more than half the deficit during his term. That is revenue. Or lack of it.

Spending has increased. We ought to scale it back. But what has happened far more is that revenue relative to population and the economy has slipped dramatically.

[Tom]

We already now FAR more about Romney's past than we do for Obama.
A person's college rrecords tell us a lot about what kind of person he was, was supporting the radicals he tries today to distance himself from, did he advocate over-throwing the government? This will tell us as much or more than just tax returns will tell us. After all, all of his returns were accepted by the IRS, and Obama controlled that the last 4 years..that's 40% of the returns you think you are entitles to see, even thought the law is not 10 years.

[ArlJim78]

No. It's code for "I can't believe how those guys ignore facts and cling to their ridiculous dogma.

I have guys on hear telling me that Ryan wants to save Medicare. Altering something so that it is unrecognizable and changing its fundamental form is not saving it, even if you do keep the name.
speaking of ignoring facts and spouting ridiculous dogma, since Ryan's medicare plan doesn't effect those over 55, and only gives an option to those under 55 and doesn't require that anyone leave the current medicare plan, how exactly does that make it "unrecognizable"?

[Tom]

how exactly does that make it "unrecognizable"?

Maybe because next to the Obama version, this one is sustainable and actually helps people?

[Saratoga_Mike]

Alice M. Rivlin,* a former director of the White House (UNDER CLINTON) and Congressional Budget Offices who was in the commission majority, said: “Paul Ryan is a likable, attractive, smart, thoughtful conservative. He deeply believes in smaller, less intrusive government and greater personal responsibility.”

Well said Alice!

*she also serves on Obama's National Commission on Fiscal Responsiblity and Reform

August 11, 2012, NY Times

[Saratoga_Mike]

No. It's code for "I can't believe how those guys ignore facts and cling to their ridiculous dogma.
.

Would that be like you opining on Coolidge, a president you know close to nothing about? You've simply heard the left disparge him, so he must have been bad, right? By the way, the left never cared about Coolidge until Reagan placed a photo of Coolidge in his office. And we all know Reagan was an idiot, so Coolidge must have been awful, right?

[ArlJim78]

“Have any of you met Paul Ryan? We should get him to come to the university.
I’m telling you this guy is amazing, uh. I always thought that I was OK with
arithmetic, but this guy can run circles around me. And, he is honest. He is
straightforward. He is sincere.

And, the budget that he came forward with is just like Paul Ryan. It is a
sensible, straightforward, serious budget and it cut the budget deficit by $4 trillion…just like we did.

quote by Erskine Bowles, long time democratic presidential advisor, member of Obamas deficit commission.

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/13/video-erskine-bowles-says-ryan-budget-sensible-honest-serious/

[Saratoga_Mike]

quote by Erskine Bowles, long time democratic presidential advisor, member of Obamas deficit commission.

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/08/13/video-erskine-bowles-says-ryan-budget-sensible-honest-serious/

So Rivlin AND Bowles are tacitly endorsing Ryan? Their vote is welcome of course.

[lsbets]

speaking of ignoring facts and spouting ridiculous dogma, since Ryan's medicare plan doesn't effect those over 55, and only gives an option to those under 55 and doesn't require that anyone leave the current medicare plan, how exactly does that make it "unrecognizable"?

It doesn't. But it's important for the left to perpetuate that lie. As I said earlier, all they can do to win is lie. If people look at the truth, they're ****ed.

Or as someone posted online, Ryan represents Obama's worst nightmare - math.

Sen Wyden thought it was a good idea before Ryan was picked. He even co sponsored it. Oops.

[ArlJim78]

So Rivlin AND Bowles are tacitly endorsing Ryan? Their vote is welcome of course.

Surprising isn't it. I'm expecting that they are both now due for a "clarification session" at Axlerods reeducation center very soon.

[ArlJim78]

PolitiFact's Lie of the Year for 2011 was a statement by the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Congressional_Campaign_Committee) (DCCC)
that a 2011 budget proposal by Congressman Paul Ryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ryan), entitled The Path to Prosperity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Path_to_Prosperity) and voted for
overwhelmingly by Republicans in the House and Senate, meant that "Republicans
voted to end Medicare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare)."[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolitiFact#cite_note-6) PolitiFact
determined that, though the Republican plan would make significant changes to
Medicare, it would not end it. PolitiFact had originally labeled nine similar
statements as "false" or "pants on fire" since April 2011.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PolitiFact#cite_note-7)



mostpost you are defending what is recognized even by politifact, which bends over backward to support the left, as the lie of the year for 2011.

your side offers nothing but lies and shameless demagoguery.

[Saratoga_Mike]

mostpost you are defending what is recognized even by politifact, which bends over backward to support the left, as the lie of the year for 2011.

your side offers nothing but lies and shameless demagoguery.

But how does Wikipedia weigh in on this matter?

[Tom]

The mantra of the left is to repeat the lie over and over.
Remember the nifty chant of tax cuts for the rich, when, in fact, the tax cuts were for everyone.

Never believe a lib if his lips are moving.

[elysiantraveller]

There is a big difference. On the one hand you have Romney and his refusal to release multiple years of his tax records-I believe eleven has become the standard.

I mean its amazing how dishonest you are when waving the party banner...

Presidential Tax returns (http://www.taxhistory.org/www/website.nsf/web/presidentialtaxreturns/)

11 years huh...?

[johnhannibalsmith]

I mean its amazing how dishonest you are when waving the party banner...

...

I couldn't muster up the will to do much more than chuckle at that caricature-esque exercise in justification.

[Rookies]

Well, at least we apparently won't be seeing Moscow from any front porches during the Republican convention.

Lady Sarah is checking the mail and checking it twice, but can't find her invite yet!:rolleyes: http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2012/07/sarah_palin_still_waiting_for.html

Maybe, Mosty has put in the good word with the Union breathren to make sure NOBODY stops at her house (like in Good Fellas).:lol:

[Greyfox]

There is a big difference. On the one hand you have Romney and his refusal to release multiple years of his tax records-I believe eleven has become the standard.

11 has become the standard?? :faint:
What Presidents, including the present one, have released 11 years of tax records? After all, you said it was the standard. :rolleyes:

[Greyfox]

11 has become the standard?? :faint:
What Presidents, including the present one, have released 11 years of tax records? After all, you said it was the standard. :rolleyes:

Okay. I see some have released their tax returns including Obama.
But 11 years is not the standard.

[lsbets]

There is a big difference. On the one hand you have Romney and his refusal to release multiple years of his tax records-I believe eleven has become the standard.

mostpost lies again.

[mostpost]

Okay. I see some have released their tax returns including Obama.
But 11 years is not the standard.

I hope you have a basket to store those nits you're picking.

[mostpost]

mostpost lies again.
Learn the difference between an average and a standard. Obama has release a dozen years. That is the standard all presidential candidates should aspire to.

[mostpost]

speaking of ignoring facts and spouting ridiculous dogma, since Ryan's medicare plan doesn't effect those over 55, and only gives an option to those under 55 and doesn't require that anyone leave the current medicare plan, how exactly does that make it "unrecognizable"?

"A House divided against itself cannot stand"
A. Lincoln, April 16, 1956, Springfield, Il.
That is what Republicans are trying to do with Medicare. Divide it so that no one part has the ability to be successful. In the meantime they use our tax money to subsidize the private insurance industry.

[Saratoga_Mike]

"A House divided against itself cannot stand"
A. Lincoln, April 16, 1956, Springfield, Il.
That is what Republicans are trying to do with Medicare. Divide it so that no one part has the ability to be successful. In the meantime they use our tax money to subsidize the private insurance industry.

Private companies....how awful

[lsbets]

Learn the difference between an average and a standard. Obama has release a dozen years. That is the standard all presidential candidates should aspire to.

One person doing something does not make it the standard. If that were the case, lying would be the standard around here because you do it all the time.

[lsbets]

In the meantime they use our tax money to subsidize the private insurance industry.

I thought that's what Obamacare does, and you love Obamacare.

Oh nevermind, its not like we'll get an honest answer out of you.

[lsbets]

That is what Paul Ryan and Ron Wyden, liberal democrat, have proposed to do in one of the few bipartisan moves in recent memory.

FYP

Try some honesty for a change.

[Wagergirl]

Learn the difference between an average and a standard. Obama has release a dozen years. That is the standard all presidential candidates should aspire to.

as see..

"The Standard"
and
"The standard all presidential candidates SHOULD aspire to."

are very different things.

[ArlJim78]

"A House divided against itself cannot stand"
A. Lincoln, April 16, 1956, Springfield, Il.
That is what Republicans are trying to do with Medicare. Divide it so that no one part has the ability to be successful. In the meantime they use our tax money to subsidize the private insurance industry.
how do you figure? it makes no sense how this divides it so that no part can be successful.
what you must understand is medicare is failing, has failed.
it cannot continue in it's current form. doing nothing is not an option, any sensible person would know that, and there are no thoughtful options on the table from democrats. maybe you have a better idea? if so let's hear it.

you are always first to demonize anything to do with the private sector, but it's the only way to keep costs under control. nothing run by the government has this feature. if you don't keep the private sector involved, if you don't allow multiple companies to compete, if you don't leave the choice in the hands of the consumer then costs are guaranteed to go up.
that is why all government programs end up breaking the bank and failing. like your beloved post office government enterprise. it too has failed, they lose something like $17 million per day but to you they've done everything correct. because it is a monopoly it too will fail completely in the not too distant future.
i'll never understand why people like you have this boundless faith in government when it has a perfect record of overpromising and underdelivering.

Compassionate people don't run a system into the ground, they make adjustments if they want the system to survive for future generations.
I guess I'll just never understand that level of selfishness and shortsightedness.

[mostpost]

mostpost you are defending what is recognized even by politifact, which bends over backward to support the left, as the lie of the year for 2011.

your side offers nothing but lies and shameless demagoguery.

The DCCC ad says the Republicans voted overwhelmingly to end Medicare, and they did. Now they did not vote for a law that said as of such and such date there will no longer be a Medicare program. And the vote they did take was on a budget resolution and not a law. So, technically, Politifact is correct. But if Republicans get their way Medicare will be fundamentally changed and will contain within it the seeds of its own destruction.
Republicans did not vote to end Medicare, but only because the couldn't.

The DCCC ad may have had a few of the details wrong, but it had the big picture right.

[Rookies]

[QUOTE=ArlJim78]how do you figure? it makes no sense how this divides it so that no part can be successful.
what you must understand is medicare is failing, has failed.
it cannot continue in it's current form. doing nothing is not an option, any sensible person would know that, and there are no thoughtful options on the table from democrats. maybe you have a better idea? if so let's hear it.

you are always first to demonize anything to do with the private sector, but it's the only way to keep costs under control. nothing run by the government has this feature. if you don't keep the private sector involved, if you don't allow multiple companies to compete, if you don't leave the choice in the hands of the consumer then costs are guaranteed to go up.

i'll never understand why people like you have this boundless faith in government when it has a perfect record of overpromising and underdelivering.

QUOTE]

The fallacy in your argument is with HC Jim. Every competing private sector HC insurer in the capitalist marketplace has to pay for its entire infrastructure to ensure profit is made and the bottom line is met. This by design, ensures that these marketplace competitors have to ratchet up their cost to the HC client.

This is without even getting into the question of what increments are covered up to and including catastrophic HC requirements and at what point the private sector 'death panels' rule.

With a single payer (preferably government run) payee, such costs can be controlled better and enormous influence can be used when negotiating all aspects of the HC industry. In the end, a good-excellent HC system uses many of the services (i.e. doctors, specialists, drugs, ancillary services) that a private enterprise system does. It even includes some services that are grandathered into the public/socialized HC system.

And just as Canadians decide to cross border shop for certain (usually non life threatening) HC procedures and services in the America, the reverse is true too. Just north of TO is one that many Americans have used (http://www.shouldice.com/) I know some ex uhhh... clients, although I have not used this one...:D

[Tom]

Okay. I see some have released their tax returns including Obama.
But 11 years is not the standard.

What is the STANDARD for releasing college records?
Oh, wait - that doesn't fit his AGENDA. :lol:

[Tom]

The DCCC ad says the Republicans voted overwhelmingly to end Medicare, and they did.

Or did they vote against some other provision of the bill?
Was the bill they voted down a single item bill?

Or are you just LYING again?

[Tom]

With a single payer (preferably government run) payee, such costs can be controlled better and enormous influence can be used when negotiating all aspects of the HC industry.

Yes, and you force US to put in an express lane at the border for all of you guys coming HERE to get adequate HC before they die off!

Government can NEVER run HC here.

[mostpost]

Or did they vote against some other provision of the bill?
Was the bill they voted down a single item bill?

Or are you just LYING again?

Quote the entire quote and you won't be able to make the specious reply you did above. My entire post explains the whole thing.
I will put it simply. The vote was in one sense a symbolic vote against Medicare. But it was also a vote to begin the process of ending that program.

[Tom]

You are lying again, I thought so.
Thanks.

[lamboguy]

if anyone is on the fence and looking for a good reason to vote in this election, Paul Ryan might just be your man. he has 8% body fat and has an exercise class down at the congress 3 times a week. that would actually give me some reason to vote for him because he has that part right on!

[Lefty]

Very unfunny lamby. Leave humor to the pros. And leave Medicare to Ryan who will save it. The dims have presented no plan to save SS or Medicare and both programs will eventually collapse under their own weight, then NOBODY GETS NUTTIN'
And then we will be at the mercy of whatever godawful plan the dims want to saddle us with.

Ryans plan does not destroy Medicare that's just another dim lie. Ryans plan will save medicare and anybody that's currently 55 or older will not be affected as is the lie all the dims even persist in promulgating.

Even Wolfe Blitzer understands the truth of it!

[redshift1]

http://www.theonion.com/articles/admit-it-i-scare-the-everloving-shit-out-of-you-do,29160/