Hansen to WV Derby

[horses4courses]

Hansen is likely to skip the Haskell in favor of the WV Derby at MNR.
It's the easier option, for about the same money.
WV Derby offers a $600K bonus to any previous G1 winner, so a win there for Hansen pays him close to the same as a win at Monmouth.

Guess you can't blame them, but it's going to kill the price on Paynter.... :mad:

http://www.drf.com/news/hansen-looks-headed-west-virginia-derby-mountaineer

[DaylightDies]

I actually think it's cool. You know all the winners are going to come together in the Breeder's Cup, so let them have their separate prep races and make the final more competitive!!!

Plus, I like it when big name horses go to tracks like Mountaineer where otherwise they wouldn't be seen at... I think it helps the local racing community a lot.. if I owned Mine That Bird instead of running races I knew there was no shot it, I would tour the country of small tracks and be a big attraction to those tracks.. it's good for the racing community

[MaTH716]

I actually think it's cool. You know all the winners are going to come together in the Breeder's Cup, so let them have their separate prep races and make the final more competitive!!!

Plus, I like it when big name horses go to tracks like Mountaineer where otherwise they wouldn't be seen at... I think it helps the local racing community a lot.. if I owned Mine That Bird instead of running races I knew there was no shot it, I would tour the country of small tracks and be a big attraction to those tracks.. it's good for the racing community

Yay for million dollar public workouts for 1/5 favorites. That's great for the sport!:bang:

[NJ Stinks]

I actually think it's cool. You know all the winners are going to come together in the Breeder's Cup, so let them have their separate prep races and make the final more competitive!!!



Just another reason why stakes races in Europe are superior to ours. The best over there actually have to compete against one another or sit. That's my idea of cool.

[andtheyreoff]

I actually think it's cool. You know all the winners are going to come together in the Breeder's Cup, so let them have their separate prep races and make the final more competitive!!!

Thank God most owners don't have your mentality, else the sport would be deader than dead.

[cj]

Thank God most owners don't have your mentality, else the sport would be deader than dead.

They don't?

[aaron]

I actually think it's cool. You know all the winners are going to come together in the Breeder's Cup, so let them have their separate prep races and make the final more competitive!!!

Plus, I like it when big name horses go to tracks like Mountaineer where otherwise they wouldn't be seen at... I think it helps the local racing community a lot.. if I owned Mine That Bird instead of running races I knew there was no shot it, I would tour the country of small tracks and be a big attraction to those tracks.. it's good for the racing community
The Breeders Cup has done more to hurt racing than help it. We have sacrificed horses competing against each other for 1 or 2 days of racing.

[forced89]

The Breeders Cup has done more to hurt racing than help it. We have sacrificed horses competing against each other for 1 or 2 days of racing.

Agree!!

[davew]

I agree it is good for the local tracks to have 'stars' visit - whether it be horses, jockeys, trainers or announcers. These days bring future track supporters (those that make the bets that pay for the show).

I just wish the owners would have large enough entry fees so that they can race for each others money and lower the takeout so that betters could have a better shot at profitability, instead of gouging all bets with short fields and unbelievable breakage.

[andtheyreoff]

They don't?

While it's true most owners are not interested in taking on the top dogs often (with a few refreshing exceptions), Hansen's people are taking it to another level IMO.

When he was entered in the Iowa Derby, I thought that was fine. He'd have a nice confidence booster against a few scrubs, then be ready to tackle the big guys. Now, even with Bodemeister withdrawn, the owners are still too scared to run in the Haskell, running him in yet another cupcake spot at MNR.

Gemologist, on the other hand, is being given the more difficult assignment of running in the Haskell, first off the bench, against Paynter (who has been touted as the best thing since sliced bread ever since his win on Preakness day), Dullahan, a G1 winner and 3rd in the Derby, and the up and comers Teeth of the Dog and Nonios. That's much different than Hansen's handling.

[mountainman]

Hansen is likely to skip the Haskell in favor of the WV Derby at MNR.
It's the easier option, for about the same money.
WV Derby offers a $600K bonus to any previous G1 winner, so a win there for Hansen pays him close to the same as a win at Monmouth.

Guess you can't blame them, but it's going to kill the price on Paynter.... :mad:

http://www.drf.com/news/hansen-looks-headed-west-virginia-derby-mountaineer

Actually, the bonus available to Hansen is 150k. We retooled the clause to include 2-yr-old g-1 races, with the bc juvenile winner very much in mind.

[cnollfan]

While it's true most owners are not interested in taking on the top dogs often (with a few refreshing exceptions), Hansen's people are taking it to another level IMO.

When he was entered in the Iowa Derby, I thought that was fine. He'd have a nice confidence booster against a few scrubs, then be ready to tackle the big guys. Now, even with Bodemeister withdrawn, the owners are still too scared to run in the Haskell, running him in yet another cupcake spot at MNR.

Gemologist, on the other hand, is being given the more difficult assignment of running in the Haskell, first off the bench, against Paynter (who has been touted as the best thing since sliced bread ever since his win on Preakness day), Dullahan, a G1 winner and 3rd in the Derby, and the up and comers Teeth of the Dog and Nonios. That's much different than Hansen's handling.

I don't see Gemologist's handling as that much different than Hansen's. His three-year old debut race was a walkover, compared to Hansen running in two graded stakes prior to the Blue Grass. The Wood and Blue Grass are a wash, and both lost the Kentucky Derby.

If I had an opportunity to win the same amount of money facing a softer field in West Virginia than in New Jersey, I would take it. If Hansen were running for $150k instead of $750k that would constitute "ducking," but all this is to me is common sense.

[Pine Tree Lane]

Mike Smith has the mount..

[Karakiozis]

[QUOTE=DaylightDies]I actually think it's cool. You know all the winners are going to come together in the Breeder's Cup, so let them have their separate prep races and make the final more competitive!!!

What makes you think that the winners will come together in the B.C? I think these greedy millionaire owners will retire them before the B.C w/ the excuse of some phantom injury and deprive the fans and the sport of the best against the best, MR Hansen said in the DRF that he wants to run in the Haskel but he is running in the W.V.D because that is best for the horse, Me thinks he is thinking of his pocket and not the horse.

[Tom]

It's nice for Mnr.
But make no mistake.
Hansen is a third rate duck.
and he is ducking the third rate 3 year olds.

Hansen? :sleeping: quack wack wack wack!

[MickJ26]

So, if Mike Smith takes over on Hansen, then that must mean that Ramon gets the mount back on Mucho Macho Man in the Whitney.

[classhandicapper]

This is a tough crowd.

If owned him, there's almost no chance I would have sent him to the Haskell if Bodemeister was running. What's the point of chasing that horse and potentially finishing off the board when there's a huge pot at MNR that Hansen will be even money or better to take down.

When Bode was withdrawn, I'd give it more consideration because of the Grade 1 status of the race, but at best it would still be a 50-50 decision.

IMO, right now, Hansen is a quality miler that's capable of stretching longer if he controls the pace or faces weaker like he probably will at MNR.

If he was mine, I'd be targeting the BC Mile/Cigar Mile etc.. and be looking for races just like the MNR race to pile up cash and get him to the end of the year fresh when he can take on Grade 1 horses at "his" distance.

[rastajenk]

I agree completely with the above post.

Especially the first line. :p

[lamboguy]

if i owned him i would do the exact same thing, plus i would bet as much money as i could afford to lose on him to show, he has to pay $2.20 in that place, and i suspect they will break the show pool handle that day because of him!

[Bettowin]

If you are an owner of a great horse who wins a lot of money it wasn't because you were smarter or worked harder than everyone else. It was because you got some help along the way. You didn't build the track or the roads to get your horse to the track. The government built those roads and allowed the tracks to be open so pay up!

LOL

[tanner12oz]

blueskiesandrainbows pointing to MNR also....not a bad horse

[Tom]

If he was mine, I'd be targeting the BC Mile/Cigar Mile etc.. and be looking for races just like the MNR race to pile up cash and get him to the end of the year fresh when he can take on Grade 1 horses at "his" distance.

If he was mine, I would concede he is a third class 3yo stake horse ad seek out races like PM and Mnr. No harm, no shame. Youis what you is, play the hand you are dealt the best you can.

But, if I wanted target him for the BC, I would be entering him in the Haskell, or the Tavers, or the Woodward, or other top races, letting him do his best against he best. I believe this is how horse get to be their best - pushing the limits, getting tired, losing, coming back and moving ahead.
Cream puff races, IMHO, do not help good horses improve - it just sets them up to lose. Jut like "resting" in their stalls instead of gutting it out on the track, where the champions play.

Champion or cash cow - no problem either way, just don't be one and pretend to be the other.

[sammy the sage]

If he was mine, I would concede he is a third class 3yo stake horse ad seek out races like PM and Mnr. No harm, no shame. Youis what you is, play the hand you are dealt the best you can.

But, if I wanted target him for the BC, I would be entering him in the Haskell, or the Tavers, or the Woodward, or other top races, letting him do his best against he best. I believe this is how horse get to be their best - pushing the limits, getting tired, losing, coming back and moving ahead.
Cream puff races, IMHO, do not help good horses improve - it just sets them up to lose. Jut like "resting" in their stalls instead of gutting it out on the track, where the champions play.

Champion or cash cow - no problem either way, just don't be one and pretend to be the other.

Tell the Zenyatta folks that...

[Dahoss9698]

I'm not crazy about the whole ducking the best competition thing...but calling Hansen a third rate 3 year is silly.

[Tom]

I base than on the fact he was ducking Bodie, now he is ducking Paynter.
Not silly to me at all. How many first and second level 3yos are taking the Prm > Mnr route this summer?

To each his own.

[MaTH716]

I base than on the fact he was ducking Bodie, now he is ducking Paynter.
Not silly to me at all. How many first and second level 3yos are taking the Prm > Mnr route this summer?

To each his own.

Who is a so-called first level 3 year old right now?

[Dahoss9698]

I base than on the fact he was ducking Bodie, now he is ducking Paynter.
Not silly to me at all. How many first and second level 3yos are taking the Prm > Mnr route this summer?

To each his own.

I rate horses on performance.

To each his own.

I'd be interested in hearing about who the first rate 3 year olds are as well. Because if Hansen is third rate, we must have a real strong group this year.

[GMB@BP]

So, if Mike Smith takes over on Hansen, then that must mean that Ramon gets the mount back on Mucho Macho Man in the Whitney.

I don't believe he is going in that race, they said they would like to space his races 2 months apart.

[GMB@BP]

Who is a so-called first level 3 year old right now?

first level compared to what? If you compare them within this years group I would say Hansen fits, historically though Hansen is like a B-/C+ type three year old.

[BMustang]

I think the connections have come to the realization that Hansen is a one-dimentional, need-the-lead type (or just off), who also has distance issues.

The more heat up top, the less Hansen's chances of winning.

With Paynter in the Haskell, Hansen had no other choice than to seek another venue, or finish up the track.

Running this horse in the Kentucky Derby was nothing but an ego trip for Kendall Hansen, the owner. Following his flare-out in the Bluegrass, even he had to know that this horse had no chance of getting the roses.

[MaTH716]

first level compared to what? If you compare them within this years group I would say Hansen fits, historically though Hansen is like a B-/C+ type three year old.

If tommorow was the Travers and the top eight three year olds (in tranning) were in the gate, what would the field look like?

I'm not measuring them against any other crops, we are strictly talking about this years group who are still running.

[MaTH716]

I think the connections have come to the realization that Hansen is a one-dimentional, need-the-lead type (or just off), who also has distance issues.

The more heat up top, the less Hansen's chances of winning.

With Paynter in the Haskell, Hansen had no other choice than to seek another venue, or finish up the track.

Running this horse in the Kentucky Derby was nothing but an ego trip for Kendall Hansen, the owner. Following his flare-out in the Bluegrass, even he had to know that this horse had no chance of getting the roses.

Not sure what you mean by flare-out, but I thought he ran well in the Bluegrass.

[classhandicapper]

If he was mine, I would concede he is a third class 3yo stake horse ad seek out races like PM and Mnr. No harm, no shame. Youis what you is, play the hand you are dealt the best you can.

But, if I wanted target him for the BC, I would be entering him in the Haskell, or the Tavers, or the Woodward, or other top races, letting him do his best against he best. I believe this is how horse get to be their best - pushing the limits, getting tired, losing, coming back and moving ahead.
Cream puff races, IMHO, do not help good horses improve - it just sets them up to lose. Jut like "resting" in their stalls instead of gutting it out on the track, where the champions play.

Champion or cash cow - no problem either way, just don't be one and pretend to be the other.

I understand your perspective, but as I always say, IMO if you throw them to the lions all year, you often have a mauled horse by November. IMO the idea is to get them there fresh, but with the seasoning you are talking about. That's a delicate balance.

IMO Classic should NOT be the target for this horse because it doesn't look like he wants 10F (at least yet). So there is no point in running in races like the Travers and getting your ass kicked at 10F again. Something like the Haskell would have been OK once Bode was withdrawn. After the MNR race (which to me is a no brainer at that purse), they should be looking for a tougher spot in the 7F/8F range to get him ready for the BC mile. I might go easy on him and then eventually try the Kelso. It's a Grade 2 against older and could easily come up tough, but be right in his wheel house and set him up for the Mile. If he gets his head handed to him, then you stop right there and go soft again.

[cj]

I understand your perspective, but as I always say, IMO if you throw them to the lions all year, you often have a mauled horse by November. IMO the idea is to get them there fresh, but with the seasoning you are talking about. That's a delicate balance.



That is the thinking of trainers today. Is it a self fulfilling prophecy? It sure seemed like horses a few decades ago didn't need to be handled like fine china.

[aaron]

That is the thinking of trainers today. Is it a self fulfilling prophecy? It sure seemed like horses a few decades ago didn't need to be handled like fine china.
I agree. I remember when a horse used to be a throw out if he/she hadn't raced recently. Now horses are throw outs because they are coming back too soon.

[classhandicapper]

That is the thinking of trainers today. Is it a self fulfilling prophecy? It sure seemed like horses a few decades ago didn't need to be handled like fine china.

The way I remember it, back in the 70s and 80s the best horses ran with less time between races (2-3 weeks), but they usually got a freshening mid season (maybe 6-8 weeks after 4-5 starts). Then they picked up where they left off. Some stayed sharp all the way through and others wore down or dropped out due to injury etc...

You could probably do the same thing now, but IMO you would reduce the probability of geting to the BC at your peak. We've seen examples of that with Rachel, Blind Luck, Havre de Grace etc.. The same thing happened years ago, but there was no BC. If you dropped out or went off form back then, you weren't missing the "big one" from your resume or risking defeat at the hands of another major rival for the award at less than your best.

It's an issue now because a lot of weight is put on those BC races in the voting for year end honors. The money is also HUGE.

I guess the BC has been a mixed blessing. It created a big day of racing with a huge handle and wide international interest among fans (and great gambling opportunities), but it screwed up the rest of the year a little.

[Saratoga_Mike]

That is the thinking of trainers today. Is it a self fulfilling prophecy? It sure seemed like horses a few decades ago didn't need to be handled like fine china.

Maybe in part, but don't you think the breed is weaker now than 30 yrs ago due to proliferation of legal drugs and breeding for speed?

[cj]

Maybe in part, but don't you think the breed is weaker now than 30 yrs ago due to proliferation of legal drugs and breeding for speed?

Certainly possible. I don't think there is any one cause.

[Striker]

So there is no point in running in races like the Travers and getting your ass kicked at 10F again.
Dr. Hansen has said numerous times that the Travers is the short term goal for Hansen, but he has led the public on about where Hansen races before.

[GMB@BP]

That is the thinking of trainers today. Is it a self fulfilling prophecy? It sure seemed like horses a few decades ago didn't need to be handled like fine china.

Do you think some of that has to do with the amount (decrease) of homebreds or family type farms that now run horses?

[BMustang]

Not sure what you mean by flare-out, but I thought he ran well in the Bluegrass.

Maker wanted to go to the Wood. The good doctor insisted they go to the Bluegrass where he took hundreds of friends and supporters for what was supposed to be a "coronation." Instead, on his preferred surface, with an uncontensted lead, at odds-on, he got wobbly at the top of the stretch and was run down by Dullahan.

Should have been an indicator to lay off and prep for the Preakness, but once again the good doctor would not be denied his day in the sun, at having a "contender" in the Kentucky Derby, where he had no shot, and got the predicted result.

[thespaah]

Just another reason why stakes races in Europe are superior to ours. The best over there actually have to compete against one another or sit. That's my idea of cool.
I agree 100%..
This is the problem with our graded stakes system. It is also an indicator of the problem with racino inflated purses.
Talent is diluted. The best horses are not entered versus each other. Trainers and owners can duck competition with impunity.

[thespaah]

The Breeders Cup has done more to hurt racing than help it. We have sacrificed horses competing against each other for 1 or 2 days of racing.
Agree! The Breeders Cup has run it's course. Time for the BC to be put out to pasture.

[thespaah]

Maybe in part, but don't you think the breed is weaker now than 30 yrs ago due to proliferation of legal drugs and breeding for speed?
I think stamina is being bred out of the species.
And what pisses me off is to listen to trainers who think race distances are too far now.
I think it is absurd to see 3 and up maidens going 5.5 furlongs. Plus, as we get into the colder months it seems that the typical 10 race card has 7 sprints and the rest "barely routes"...One mile 1m 70y and 1 1/16 mi....To me, those are just extended sprints.
Routes are 9f and longer.
I think longer races have larger fields and with larger fields there is more value to the smart handicapper who can sift through the field and find winners that aren't less than 2-1.

[grant miller]

I dont get it . we whine piss and moan about no new horse racing fans--- and then slam someone that just might get 10. percent of the crowd that thinks our sport is worth following:mad: funny cide drew 12,000 fans to finger lakes on a rainy day for an easy race-and paid 4.00 go ahead and flame away!!!!

[Tom]

Funny Cide was nearing the end of his career. Hansen is supposedly at his prime and still establishing his credentials.

It's like you see the Turtles playing at local fairs but not Usher.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Funny Cide was nearing the end of his career. Hansen is supposedly at his prime and still establishing his credentials.

It's like you see the Turtles playing at local fairs but not Usher.

I could be mistaken - and I'm sure you'll correct me if I am! - but weren't you an ardent defender of Zenyatta's creampuff racing career? Perhaps they're attempting the same approach with Hansen (i.e., race against nothing 90% of the time and then have a lot left in the tank for big-time races). And no I'm not comparing Hansen to Z, just comparing the approach.

[Tom]

I agree Zenyatta did not face the top horses. But she did not travel the counry avoiding them. She was willing to meet Rachael, and everyone else knew where she was going - she stayed in California other than Oaklawn. and she did, after all, go the BC Classic twine, winning once and narrowly missing the other.

She never traveled to two minor league tracks.

But I took heat for defendng her, so now I am using the criteria that was told to me to be correct and I get heat for that. Tough room. :D

I still say Hansen is a third rate 3yo, possible a second rate, I'll go along wiht that...but a top 3yo.....:lol:

[classhandicapper]

I could be mistaken - and I'm sure you'll correct me if I am! - but weren't you an ardent defender of Zenyatta's creampuff racing career? Perhaps they're attempting the same approach with Hansen (i.e., race against nothing 90% of the time and then have a lot left in the tank for big-time races). And no I'm not comparing Hansen to Z, just comparing the approach.

There's a subtle difference.

Zenyatta stayed home (except for the Apple Blossom and BC) and ran in the best available Grade 1 race for mares for big money. Sometimes solid competitors left town to avoid her, sometimes the division was weak, and a few times the race drew very well and she won, but it had nothing to do with seeking out soft spots. That's the way the chips fell. What they didn't do was go out of their way to ship and take on males and squeeze the lemon dry (like Rachel, Havre de Grace, and Blind Luck) because they were gearing up for the BC.

Hansen has already demonstrated he's not a Grade 1 horse at 10F. Some people (like me) suspect he'd have a tough time at 9F if he had to cope with a horse like Bodemeister early and then hold off the cavalry charge late. So IMO there is no point in aiming for the Travers. In fact, I think it would be a semi retarded move unless the connections felt he had progressed significantly since the Derby (which is possible of course). If you can win a ton of money with a horse like that in a softer spot, you'd have to be crazy to pass it up and take on the tigers now at an unfavorable distance when you can do it later at a more favorable distance and still get the Grade 1 black type.

IMO, he's been handle perfectly. We just have to see what they do next if he runs well.

As fans, we want to see the deepest most competitive fields, but as an owner/trainer your goal should be to maximize the horse's earning and value. Sometimes what the fans want is not on the best interests of the owners and horse.

[Saratoga_Mike]

I agree Zenyatta did not face the top horses. But she did not travel the counry avoiding them. She was willing to meet Rachael, and everyone else knew where she was going - she stayed in California other than Oaklawn. and she did, after all, go the BC Classic twine, winning once and narrowly missing the other.

She never traveled to two minor league tracks.

But I took heat for defendng her, so now I am using the criteria that was told to me to be correct and I get heat for that. Tough room. :D

I still say Hansen is a third rate 3yo, possible a second rate, I'll go along wiht that...but a top 3yo.....:lol:

As Emerson said, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

[Tom]

Sometimes what the fans want is not on the best interests of the owners and horse.

That is when poker sites come into play.

[Saratoga_Mike]

As Emerson said, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

I received a PM from someone who thought I was insulting Tom with this quote, which is absolutely untrue. First of all, the full quote is as follows: “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.” In the quote, Emerson was arguing against forced consistency and conformity. Therefore, the quote is compatible with Tom's subtle position shift.

[Tom]

I was happy to think I was called a hobgoblin! :cool:

[Pine Tree Lane]

I don't believe he is going in that race, they said they would like to space his races 2 months apart.

That is correct. They said he would be pointed toward the Woodward which gives them two months to prepare for the Breeders Cup.

[sammy the sage]

I'm hoping against hope for a surprise announcement that say....Tues...Baffert says....Bodie's going to THE mountain :lol:

One can only wish for...............

[GMB@BP]

I'm hoping against hope for a surprise announcement that say....Tues...Baffert says....Bodie's going to THE mountain :lol:

One can only wish for...............

He's still in training?

I wont be shocked if we do not see him again.

[davew]

this will be an interesting race

if Hansen goes odds on, a couple others may become good bets

[pele polo]

When Hansen goes off at 1-9 today and creates minus show pool, remember he is trying to go a 110 yards longer than he's ever won at. In 2012, that's a huge difference.

Granted, if he loses, I'll be surprised. But it never ceases to amaze me how people bet.

[davew]

Hansen does have a tastefully blue tail

[Simple Syrup]

I went with the wrong one. I had Bourbon Courage, and I celebrated too soon as Hansen faded.

[davew]

good call Mark

I am glad Hero of Order pace killed Hansen, my show bets will pay well

[Some_One]

Had a feeling this would happen with Smith on board, just like the Derby, he just doesn't know when to give up the lead.

[KirisClown]

khviH71Yuvo

[Striker]

You can scrap the plan to go to the Travers.

[Simple Syrup]

Had a feeling this would happen with Smith on board, just like the Derby, he just doesn't know when to give up the lead.

Yeah, as much as I enjoy cheering against this white horse, the race was winnable for him.

[mountainman]

good call Mark

I am glad Hero of Order pace killed Hansen, my show bets will pay well

Tx, dave. Hansen no way fit the profile for a wv derby winner, but macho macho did. Bigtime. There were so many reasons to put macho macho on top that there was barely time to delineate them all on the air.

[lamboguy]

i just noticed, MUCHO MACHO paid $11.00 for third. that is what i call a beautiful thing!

[Tom]

Well, that sure muddles up the 3yo picture! :lol: :lol:
Ok, you lose some, but off the freaking board? :lol: :lol:
Must have been all that blue paint.
Maybe Finger Lakes will fit into his new schedule?

Mike Smith will have this tune in his head on the red-eye home tonight!
GSxkPUty4y4

[GMB@BP]

Had a feeling this would happen with Smith on board, just like the Derby, he just doesn't know when to give up the lead.

Then you must think Tapizar is the second coming of Holy Bull off todays form, the fractions were slow, he should have wrangled him back as you intimated.

You should bet Hansen back if you really thought the pace did him in, if he did get sent on too fast a pace he was only beaten a few lengths, a great handicapping angle that most of the public is not willing to forgive.

For me though any conditions similar (high dollar stake race beyond a mile) I will be betting against this horse, he aint that good.

[sammy the sage]

The trifecta pay-off was VERY light...HHHmmmm

[mountainman]

For me though any conditions similar (high dollar stake race beyond a mile) I will be betting against this horse, he aint that good.

Apt observations, but too late, sir. Today was the day to stand against hansen.

[GMB@BP]

Apt observations, but too late, sir. Today was the day to stand against hansen.

I did!

[reckless]

I am no fan of the limited and overrated Hansen, but the poor boy seems to be additionally burdened by an obnoxious, unpopular owner, don't you think?

[mountainman]

I did!
Bravo. Me, too.

[Some_One]

Then you must think Tapizar is the second coming of Holy Bull off todays form, the fractions were slow, he should have wrangled him back as you intimated.

You should bet Hansen back if you really thought the pace did him in, if he did get sent on too fast a pace he was only beaten a few lengths, a great handicapping angle that most of the public is not willing to forgive.

For me though any conditions similar (high dollar stake race beyond a mile) I will be betting against this horse, he aint that good.

He won the damn BC Juvie, you have to have some level of ability to win that race. I need to look at the form, but I think its just a matter of needing some time off.

[Striker]

He won the damn BC Juvie, you have to have some level of ability to win that race. I need to look at the form, but I think its just a matter of needing some time off.
Absolutely, and horses including Hansen need to prove/validate that ability again in their 3yo season. He has yet to really do that against a quality field this year IMO.

[PaceAdvantage]

I am no fan of the limited and overrated Hansen, but the poor boy seems to be additionally burdened by an obnoxious, unpopular owner, don't you think?Have there been ANY popular owners lately? Loved by all?

Can't think of any...Repole...nope...Hansen...apparently not...The Mosses? Not by a long shot...

The world in the Internet age will forever more be providing the platform for the lovers and the haters, so nobody will ever be immune from here on out...

It's kind of silly, isn't it?

[BMustang]

Dr. Kendall Hansen is out of his element and his league.

It has been total buffoonery since Day One when he altered the plans to go in the Wood Memorial that had been mapped out by Michael Maker who prepped him in the Gotham for the Wood.

Kendall interceded and sent the horse to the Bluegrass (where he wanted to paint the horses tail blue), so that he could have a coronation closer to home and have his hundreds of hangers-on in the winners circle. How'd that work out for him???

Today he won the battle, got the horses tail painted blue, but ran off the board in the race. The horse flat can't get 1 1/8 miles without coming up short.. It is miraculous that Union Rags didn't pass him in the Juvenile. So that's what they have to hang their hats on.

The whole Kendall situation from the start has been a three-ring circus. Hopefully, the circus left the big city for good today.

[mountainman]

Anyone who thinks a flamboyant owner, blue tail, slow speed duel-or even the 9-furlong distance, for that matter, was the real issue yesterday is missing the point.

[lamboguy]

they bet $190,000 to show on Hansen yesterday looking for the $2.20. there were 2 other races yesterday that had much better prospects for the $2.20, both 2 year old races that didn't take any money at all.

mountaineer is certainly the best place to bet on or against the bridgejump even with the netpool pricing.

2.20 would have been good on Mucho Macho, and they put up $11.00!

[Tom]

Anyone who thinks a flamboyant owner, blue tail, slow speed duel-or even the 9-furlong distance, for that matter, was the real issue yesterday is missing the point.

And that is......

[burnsy]

Have there been ANY popular owners lately? Loved by all?

Can't think of any...Repole...nope...Hansen...apparently not...The Mosses? Not by a long shot...

The world in the Internet age will forever more be providing the platform for the lovers and the haters, so nobody will ever be immune from here on out...

It's kind of silly, isn't it?
Of course it is. its hard enough to pick races let alone get tied up into this..ridiculous internet "hating game". i don't care if they polka dot the horse....is he going to run if i bet him? its a free country...owners have money or they would not own horses like this. some of these people are different and ecentric....by the way thats how they got where they are...they take the path least traveled and are rewarded for the risks. buying race horses is the same as gambling itself...on a larger scale. one thing i've learned over the years...in this country its supposed to be free one..... to do what you want...but hey, if you are different you are to be riduculed...it is silly. they have a good horse with distance limitations....thats all i have to know when i'm betting .....it does not matter if its horse racing, sports, politics or whatever. people are always judging people in this soap opera of a country we live in. its free until you do something that is not "status quo". i'll admit that the owner is some what of a side show(his choice and right), but i was not going to bet on him for all the tea in china anyway. i'll probably never sit down and have a meal with this guy either...so who really gives a sh!t.

[Tom]

The silly thing about it is the crappy coverage of racing that covers everything but the horses.

Why did FOX waste air time bringing on the owner and his Ho Train when they could have been talking about horses and past races and how the race might set up?

You know why they painted his tail blue?
So they could tell the horses asses in that barn apart.

[Robert Fischer]

They did a great job with Hansen. Maker developed his style over the synthetics. He kept that form going too. The absolute best route jockey to ration speed in the game, also did a perfect job with the horse. Then throw in the fact that the Juvenile was at the 8.5furlong distance, and that the only horse with more talent and form (Union Rags) had to go against that perfect storm of Hansen/Dominguez/Maker and could not hold it together in the stretch, when he should have got by.

Hansen isn't all that big of a horse, and he's not naturally a distance horse. Now as the 3yo season started and others were maturing, and horses even better than Union Rags were developing, the situation shifted.

The conservative horseman's approach may have been to point for races like the King's Bishop, and carefully pick spots from 7 - 8.5furlongs... But how can you blame the owner who had a puncher's chance in the Kentucky Derby??

Now last night, Dominguez is off, and that would obviously hurt him a great deal, but most of the time he would finish in the top 3. The counter- bridgejump bet wasn't really a great bet on paper, but if you bet the best horse in that race across the board, it was something like $11 show and probably not unbettable either way (hansen in money).

[lamboguy]

if you brought the same field of horse over to Delware, Parx, Monmouth, Louisiana Downs, Hawthorne, you would never get $30,000 to show on Hansen, The Mountain brought in $190,000.

[horses4courses]

So they could tell the horses asses in that barn apart.

I run into that very same problem myself sometimes....... :lol:

[mountainman]

And that is......

As i stated at some length on the show-and paraphrased yeserday in the selections section of mnr's website, the wv derby is a race best attacked with relatively inexperienced late-bloomers that have avoided the rigors of the triple crown trail. History shows that the race was a primary goal, not a secondary thought or stepping stone toward the travers for nearly all wv derby winners. Assmussen's three previous winners had totaled zero stakes wins amongst them. In addition, none of our last seven winners had netted a single stakes event as a 2-yr-old. And just one of those seven had competed in a spring classic-and, in that case, it was one single (ky derby) start. Quite apart from his improving pattern and detectable upside, it was macho macho who fit our races winning profile, not hansen, whose poor performance was completely predictable. History SCREAMED macho macho.

[GMB@BP]

He won the damn BC Juvie, you have to have some level of ability to win that race. I need to look at the form, but I think its just a matter of needing some time off.

What does a 2 year old stake in Nov have to do with a 3yo stake in August? Lets judge him on what he has done this year. He has won when facing weaker competition with slower paces, if he gets that setup then he can win, not my idea of a good horse in relation to the top of the 3yo division.

[reckless]

Have there been ANY popular owners lately? Loved by all?

Can't think of any...Repole...nope...Hansen...apparently not...The Mosses? Not by a long shot...

The world in the Internet age will forever more be providing the platform for the lovers and the haters, so nobody will ever be immune from here on out...

It's kind of silly, isn't it?

Yes, I guess you're right. I tried to find someone whom I considered 'popular' and well... it was damn difficult.

When I was a younger fan, Grindstone's owner William Young, who made his first fortune in peanut butter, was deemed to be a good all around guy, well loved in Louisville and Lexington.

Ronny Lamarque, owner of Risen Star, was also considered a 'good egg', but that was way before the horse made him famous! So, by the Belmont Stakes, his stupid singing routines in the winners' circle made us feel he was just another wealthy jerk.

Merv Griffin and Bob Lewis were 'popular' -- Griffin a celebrity well known to millions, and Lewis, just a real nice classy guy who made his swill by distributing and providing Budweiser to the swells.

The common denominator is that my few examples were of another time and era. The generational character of those times were also different where even the most famous, most successful, and most wealthy still maintained a modicum of decorum and class, coupled with a pinch of humility.

Today's owner seem to relish in such obnoxiousness -- AND they are enabled by the Internet, cable-TV and other over the top media-centric avenues where those celebrity-oriented clowns on TVG, ESPN and the rest of their phony ilk reside.

IMHO, I feel that Hansen, yes, in part, is burdened by his owner, but the reality is no one cares -- for either the horse or owner.

[cj]

Jess Jackson was pretty popular, but maybe I don't remember the whole story.

[PhantomOnTour]

Jess Jackson was pretty popular, but maybe I don't remember the whole story.
I liked Jess because he raced his horses (speaking mainly of Curlin and Rachel Alexandra), same for Sonny Hine and the way he campaigned Skip Away.
Eugene Klein was popular, but that was long ago, and partly because he owned an NFL team.
Burt Bacharach was popular, as is Bobby Flay (i guess).

Allen Paulsen and Bob/Beverly Lewis are two of my favorites.
Most owners are outfits/breeding ops like Juddmonte or West Pt Thoroughbred so an individual face isn't really attached to it.
IEAH anybody? :D

[Mr G]

Have there been ANY popular owners lately? Loved by all?

Can't think of any...Repole...nope...Hansen...apparently not...The Mosses? Not by a long shot...



In addition to playing the greyounds while living in Florida and the horses here in NY many decades ago living on the east end of Long Island there was a guy from the city who rented a summer place out east here....In Westhampton Beach, Long Island....hell of a nice guy...as was his wife....guest he had come out were nice as well.....a trader he was...a very successful trader..mostly the S&P futures...

I also have been trading the market for as long as I've been wagering on the dogs and horses...approx 40 years...But I've always traded stock options...simple stuff like PUTS and CALLS...

Anyway, back to the cat in the summer home in Westhampton Beach....he made millions and then it almost killed him....he needed to get away from the stress of trading....he took a long time off and also went looking for something else....

That something else turned out to be race horses..

His name was Buzzy Schwartz.

Do you know him or know if he is a likeable owner or not?

If he is the same likable person with owning horses as he was way back when trading the market my money would be on he is very likeable.

http://www.equibase.com:80/profiles/Results.cfm?type=People&searchType=O&eID=1136174 (http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=People&searchType=O&eID=1136174)

[camourous]

Hansen is better when he is allowed to run freely and go as fast and as far as he wants, having Mike Smith strangle him early was either stupid instructions given to a stupid rider, or just a stupid rider making his normal stupid decision...

[GMB@BP]

Hansen is better when he is allowed to run freely and go as fast and as far as he wants, having Mike Smith strangle him early was either stupid instructions given to a stupid rider, or just a stupid rider making his normal stupid decision...

Now if thats the angle I can by that one, not this "he never pulls a horse off the pace" stuff earlier in this thread. But he still would have faded IMO and the critics would have been out in real force then.

Tracking a 37/1 shot through moderate fractions is not exactly worst case scenario, and if you any good you should be able to get by and have plenty left to hold off the likes of Bourbon Courage.

[classhandicapper]

I've been saying all long that Hansen is a miler that can stretch out further against a weaker group when he has it all his own way, but against quality opponents (especially another quality speed) he's not getting 9F, let alone the 10F of the Travers at this stage in his career. IMO even considering the Travers was idiotic.

IMO he was entered in the appropriate spot give the purse, bonus and field quality, but where he belongs is now is no longer a handicapping question that should be debated. Anyone can see he's a 7f/8f miler.

As long as he came out of the race OK and is still fresh, they should be targeting something like the Kelso or softer to see what he can do against quality horses at an ideal distance. If he runs well, you target the BC mile and if he gets mugged, you look for softer spots going shorter.

[mountainman]

I've been saying all long that Hansen is a miler that can stretch out further against a weaker group when he has it all his own way, but against quality opponents (especially another quality speed) he's not getting 9F, let alone the 10F of the Travers at this stage in his career. IMO even considering the Travers was idiotic.

IMO he was entered in the appropriate spot give the purse, bonus and field quality, but where he belongs is now is no longer a handicapping question that should be debated. Anyone can see he's a 7f/8f miler.

As long as he came out of the race OK and is still fresh, they should be targeting something like the Kelso or softer to see what he can do against quality horses at an ideal distance. If he runs well, you target the BC mile and if he gets mugged, you look for softer spots going shorter.

If saturday's race had been 8 furlongs, Hansen still doesn't win. If I pay the bills on him, I'm MUCH more concerned abt the poor effort than I am his obvious distance limitations. Based on his wv derby, Hansen is not a formidable racehorse.

[Tom]

One might be tempted to say he performed much like a third rate three year old.

[mountainman]

One might be tempted to say he performed much like a third rate three year old.

It's been said that a horse's form is never stagnant, they are always improving or deteriorating, however slight the fluctuation. In other words, I can't fault Hansen's 2-yr-old form, or even the ky derby flop that seemed resultant of a torrid pace. His mnr effort, however, is a whole other matter and sends bad signals

[classhandicapper]

If saturday's race had been 8 furlongs, Hansen still doesn't win. If I pay the bills on him, I'm MUCH more concerned abt the poor effort than I am his obvious distance limitations. Based on his wv derby, Hansen is not a formidable racehorse.

I agree that he probably didn't run as well Saturday as he has in a few other races, but some horses run better when they are loose and he wasn't "that" dreadful". If he came out of it OK and is still acting fresh, IMO the correct move is to put the speed back in him and shoot for 7F or 8F. He may simply not be good enough at the highest levels going short either, but those dreams about the Derby and Travers were delusions. He's a miler.

[Dahoss9698]

One might be tempted to say he performed much like a third rate three year old.

One might have also answered when asked who in fact was a first rate three year old. One must not have had the time to address that. Or, one was waiting until after the race to comment.

I'm not real interested in jumping to conclusions about one race. Especially a race over that "track."

[classhandicapper]

He's an interesting test of case of a phenomenon that comes up once in awhile. He came out running at 5 1/2 furlongs, but because he was successful in the Juvenile, the natural inclination was to shoot for the really big prizes going longer.

Aside from the fact that IMO it's clear he's a miler type, you more or less can't know if his development has stalled and other horses are moving past him or whether his development is being concealed by training for and running in 9F-10F races.

[mountainman]

He's an interesting test of case of a phenomenon that comes up once in awhile. He came out running at 5 1/2 furlongs, but because he was successful in the Juvenile, the natural inclination was to shoot for the really big prizes going longer.

Aside from the fact that IMO it's clear he's a miler type, you more or less can't know if his development has stalled and other horses are moving past him or whether his development is being concealed by training for and running in 9F-10F races.

There is a third and perhaps more probable explanation, sir, and one often overlooked by good handicappers trapped in minutia: The horse may have regressed-or failed to move forward and reach his potential-because of physical issues.

[menifee]

There is a third and perhaps more probable explanation, sir, and one often overlooked by good handicappers trapped in minutia: The horse may have regressed-or failed to move forward and reach his potential-because of physical issues.

Mark, your pre-race analysis was excellent and spot on. I took a stand against Hansen as well with Called to Serve who I thought was tremendous value. I was so disappointed in how he ran. The race set up beautifully for him, he was in a great position, but could not get by. Clearly, he was not classy enough to win the race, but given how the CA horses ran this year, I thought he could move up and win this.

[Tom]

First rate 3yos....Bodemeister, IHA, Union Rags, A-, Short list.
Second rate ...Paynter, but may graduate to FC soon.
Third rate - Hansen, Alpha, Gemologist,

[Striker]

There is a third and perhaps more probable explanation, sir, and one often overlooked by good handicappers trapped in minutia: The horse may have regressed-or failed to move forward and reach his potential-because of physical issues.
Both Maker and Dr. Hansen gave numerous interviews telling the public that physically, this is the best he has been in awhile.

[GMB@BP]

Both Maker and Dr. Hansen gave numerous interviews telling the public that physically, this is the best he has been in awhile.

I never believe, or listen to that stuff.

[cj]

I never believe, or listen to that stuff.

That is a wise decision.

[Striker]

I never believe, or listen to that stuff.
Of course everything that a trainer or owner says should be taken with a grain of salt, but in this case why lie, or even run him if he wasn't physically sound?

[mountainman]

why lie, or even run him if he wasn't physically sound?

You're joking, right? Let's start with 585,000 reasons to run the horse, and then go from there. Do you think Hansen's hotties work for free??? (Had an awesome view, and one particular blonde was beyond BELIEF.)

[Striker]

You're joking, right? Let's start with 585,000 reasons to run the horse, and then go from there. Do you think Hansen's hotties work for free??? (Had an awesome view, and one particular blonde was beyond BELIEF.)
So, if you are an owner/trainer and you know there is something physically wrong with the horse you run him anyways because there is over 500k on the line? Please tell me that you are joking here.

[mountainman]

So, if you are an owner/trainer and you know there is something physically wrong with the horse you run him anyways because there is over 500k on the line? Please tell me that you are joking here.

I hate to break this to ya, strike, but there is something wrong with most horses ,they experience pain and live with it. Stakes horses are no exception. If all horses with potentially serious issues were withheld from competition, there would BE no horseracing-graded stakes events included. Does this make all owners and trainers cold-hearted money grubbers? Of course not. It makes them human beings engaging in a capitalist endeavor. Do you seriously think no prominent racehorse is sent into competition with chronic or acute infirmities? Are you serious? Really??????? With all respect, sir, what planet do you inhabit?

[Striker]

I hate to break this to ya, strike, but there is something wrong with most horses ,they experience pain and live with it. Stakes horses are no exception. If all horses with potentially serious issues were withheld from competition, there would BE no horseracing-graded stakes events included. Does this make all owners and trainers cold-hearted money grubbers? Of course not. It makes them human beings engaging in a capitalist endeavor. Do you seriously think no prominent racehorse is sent into competition with chronic or acute infirmities? Are you serious? Really??????? With all respect, sir, what planet do you inhabit?
Sounds like you and Mountaineer are a match made in heaven.

[Prairie Bettor]

I will say when Hansen ran at Prairie Meadows, I had close to twenty people tell me that the horse was not right. I couldn't believe how many people knew the "inside tip." And they all thought they were telling me something only they knew, I heard it from jockeys, trainers, everybody.

I've never seen anything like it.

Of course he won easily, angainst easy competition, but one has to wonder...

I also have it on good word that Dr Hansen himself laid the early money at both Prairie and the Mountain. So I don't agree that he knew the horse wasn't 100%.

[davew]

I saw it on ROOT sports cable, and interviewer had FOX sports on the microphone. There were 3 young ladies handing out white puffy horse dolls with blue tails to the first 1000 patrons, did anyone get one?

They asked Dr Hansen if he bet on Hansen and he said not at 1/9 (maybe he did and did not realize that pool money is small and late there)

After the race ?Molly? interviewed Mike Smith who was whinning about some 50/1 shot without a chance wrecking his race so he ran off the board and the other guy got last. Actually Hero of Order runs like that and won the Louisiana Derby on April 1 paying over $100. Hero of Order also finished fifth regaining on Hansen at the finish. I lost some respect for Mike after that interview, but in the heat of the moment, he was probably not thinking well.

[mountainman]

Mark, your pre-race analysis was excellent and spot on.

Tx, sir. I put considerable work and thought into it. Hopefully, it wasn't too somber or heavy-handed. But at 20 minutes out, it's time to stop the hype and speak to serious players.

[tholl]

Just my opinion and I have been blasted for this before but I've never been a fan of the Pulpit sire line. His runners (mostly colts) seem to fizzle out quicker than others. There are exceptions but majority show great promise but are done after a few hard races and rarely meet their expected potential.

Pulpit himself (although could be excused through injury) never reached his potential and nor did his sons Pyro, Cointhian, Sky Mesa, Tapit and Ice Box to name four.

I think colts by Tapit may follow this trend.

[GMB@BP]

Of course everything that a trainer or owner says should be taken with a grain of salt, but in this case why lie, or even run him if he wasn't physically sound?

I think he was sound, and I think they thought he was doing great, but why would it alter my opinion of anything regarding his ability.

When Gary Stevens said Rock Hard Ten was the best horse he had ever ridden I did not go out and put a future wager on him.