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View Full Version : No trip? No whip!


mountainman
07-15-2012, 11:19 AM
My new outcry against jockeys who botch the ride and then make the horse pay for their transgressions. Don't punish the animal after YOU break on its mouth, check repeatedly, swing wide when the rail is open, misjudge the pace..etc..etc. Just keep the stick uncocked, dismount and slink back to the jocks room. And hope the horse doesn't hit YOU for your incompetence.

Not a fan of heavy whipping to begin with-have seen too many bad riders literally BEAT the momentum right out of a horse. And when they butcher the trip and still batter the poor animal, my blood boils.

Yes, I realize this isn't practical or enforceable, but riders, don't demand that a horse give ITS best unless you've given YOUR best.

BMustang
07-15-2012, 11:47 AM
I have always felt that the use of the whip is overrated
I get a kick out of horseplayers who stand in front of a TV screaming "Hit him, hit him" when the jock may be giving the horse a masterful hand ride. Too often bad riders will resort to repeated whipping through the stretch in lieu of getting up on the horses head and "helping" him to the wire, only to have a jock pumping and driving a horse past him at the wire.

While this will not be a popular statement, I think Channing Hill is one of the strongest hand riders in the country. There are times when I will lose a race to someone doing the same thing, over and over again (whipping him) and expecting different results - the definition of insanity - and know that Hill could have gotten the same horse home with a strong hand ride.

I'm sure there are many good hand riders out there, who use the whip as a tool to their advantage, but depend on a strong hand ride to win races. Unfortunately, the many jocks that I talk to here in Ohio/Kentucky say that if they don't use the whip with regularity, they don't get mounts. Bad mentality.

Some_One
07-15-2012, 12:20 PM
Didn't an Aussie study recently find the whip to have little to no effect, if the horse is out of gas, whipping it won't matter. I can maybe see if you need to it to regain the attention of the horse, try to get it to switch leads, but that's it IMO.

Robert Fischer
07-15-2012, 12:40 PM
have seen too many bad riders literally BEAT the momentum right out of a horse.

This is one of my pet peeves as a player who occasionally bets across the board.

thaskalos
07-15-2012, 01:37 PM
My new outcry against jockeys who botch the ride and then make the horse pay for their transgressions. Don't punish the animal after YOU break on its mouth, check repeatedly, swing wide when the rail is open, misjudge the pace..etc..etc. Just keep the stick uncocked, dismount and slink back to the jocks room. And hope the horse doesn't hit YOU for your incompetence.

Not a fan of heavy whipping to begin with-have seen too many bad riders literally BEAT the momentum right out of a horse. And when they butcher the trip and still batter the poor animal, my blood boils.

Yes, I realize this isn't practical or enforceable, but riders, don't demand that a horse give ITS best unless you've given YOUR best.

I have always thought that these regrettable incidents are a part of the "maneuvering" that certain trainers like to do...especially at the minor tracks.

I sometimes see horses, who are fully capable of running within 5 lengths of the pace of the race, taken waaaaay back...to a point where the horse has almost lost contact with the field.

The jockey then proceeds to make a 12-wide move turning for home, while furiously whipping the helpless horse...as he puts on a show for the bewildered fans, trying to convince them that he is doing his "best" to win the race.

Shameless...:ThmbDown:

mountainman
07-15-2012, 01:52 PM
I have always thought that these regrettable incidents are a part of the "maneuvering" that certain trainers like to do...especially at the minor tracks.

I sometimes see horses, who are fully capable of running within 5 lengths of the pace of the race, taken waaaaay back...to a point where the horse has almost lost contact with the field.

The jockey then proceeds to make a 12-wide move turning for home, while furiously whipping the helpless horse...as he puts on a show for the bewildered fans, trying to convince them that he is doing his "best" to win the race.

Shameless...:ThmbDown:

True dat. I am sooooooooo tempted to start a thread about subtle tipoffs that a jock isn't trying. I have on- air euphemisms for such incidents, but it's dangerous territory for an in-house handicapper. It's a tad easier (and far less risky) to imply that a trainer has "set one up," or likes to "cash a ticket."

Either way, i can rarely resist going there on the show, and that may someday end me as an analyst. Oh well.

Itamaraca
07-15-2012, 01:59 PM
yeah. this definitely needs to be a topic over at the Capper's Corner. I'd love to see what Thaskalos, Traynor, DaveSchwartz, Capper Al, TrifectaMike, Raybo, etc. have to say on the topic. This game is so multi-faceted.

bob60566
07-15-2012, 04:02 PM
This subject which i agree about the jocks skill and trainer intent is there for all to see and interpret and show in the running lines in PP.
But as posted in the past no computer will pick it up.Lokk for a horse that has no workouts in last three months and look at recent running lines good place to start.

Saratoga_Mike
07-15-2012, 04:07 PM
True dat. I am sooooooooo tempted to start a thread about subtle tipoffs that a jock isn't trying. I have on- air euphemisms for such incidents, but it's dangerous territory for an in-house handicapper. It's a tad easier (and far less risky) to imply that a trainer has "set one up," or likes to "cash a ticket."

Either way, i can rarely resist going there on the show, and that may someday end me as an analyst. Oh well.

When you believe a jockey hasn't tried in a race, do you report it to the stewards?

bob60566
07-15-2012, 04:12 PM
When you believe a jockey hasn't tried in a race, do you report it to the stewards?
Most horses in the lower classes are raced into shape and they are not sent out to win until they are race fit.

Saratoga_Mike
07-15-2012, 04:20 PM
Most horses in the lower classes are raced into shape and they are not sent out to win until they are race fit.

I've owned about 20 horses over time, most of which would fit the "lower class" category, and I really couldn't disagree more. But that's just me.

bob60566
07-15-2012, 04:25 PM
I've owned about 20 horses over time, most of which would fit the "lower class" category, and I really couldn't disagree more. But that's just me.

Did they have regular workouuts

Saratoga_Mike
07-15-2012, 04:31 PM
Did they have regular workouuts

If they'd missed time, absolutely. We never sent a horse into a race not trying to win. I had no interest in finishing second or third. None. Of course we did lose about 80% of the time, which is probably why I don't own horses currently! If they were racing every few weeks, they weren't worked between races. If you have a 6-yr-old gelding that's raced 60 times and he's racing every few weeks, there's typically ZERO reason to work the horse between races. They just ain't getting anymore fit.

mountainman
07-15-2012, 04:39 PM
When you believe a jockey hasn't tried in a race, do you report it to the stewards?

No. I'm just an ast racing sex, and neither that, nor my experience as a handicapper or analyst, empowers or qualifies me to presume I've seen something the stewards missed, or that my opinion is more valid than that of anyone else who watched the same race.

5k-claim
07-15-2012, 08:55 PM
No. I'm just an ast racing sex, and neither that, nor... Yikes.

I am planning on shipping in with a nice little filly next Sunday. Please stay away from the receiving barn if I wander off to the casino to get something to eat... I need this filly happy and eager, not traumatized.

BTW.... special request... can you bring back that F&M NW4L going 7.5f Turf for $15k ?? You ran it June 26, race 4.

Thanks!
.

BombsAway Bob
07-15-2012, 09:27 PM
My new outcry against jockeys who botch the ride and then make the horse pay for their transgressions. Don't punish the animal after YOU break on its mouth, check repeatedly, swing wide when the rail is open, misjudge the pace..etc..etc. Just keep the stick uncocked, dismount and slink back to the jocks room. And hope the horse doesn't hit YOU for your incompetence.

Not a fan of heavy whipping to begin with-have seen too many bad riders literally BEAT the momentum right out of a horse. And when they butcher the trip and still batter the poor animal, my blood boils.

Yes, I realize this isn't practical or enforceable, but riders, don't demand that a horse give ITS best unless you've given YOUR best.
i believe you echoed similar sentiments last Tuesday night on air.
Currently i do a Late DD write-up every Tuesday for the "Night School"
Live handicapping chat here, under selections.
Seeing three speeds on paper, & only one making
a concerted effort for the lead out of the gate, is not only frustrating,
but makes my pithy commentary look even worse than it is.

mountainman
07-15-2012, 11:04 PM
I dig your analysis, dude. But then, I would, because we tend to think somewhat alike. Nice job.

PaceAdvantage
07-15-2012, 11:07 PM
When you believe a jockey hasn't tried in a race, do you report it to the stewards?What's the point? The jock can just say the horse "didn't feel right" and he was simply "protecting the horse."

Might be true...might not be true...either way, you can't do anything about it.

Kevroc
07-16-2012, 02:00 AM
I always thought the whip was more a guidance tool than an urging tool. The head-on views generally confirm this. The horses are tiring late and either bearing in or drifting out, so the jock needs to whip on the appropriate side to correct.. the worse the horse is leaning, the faster the whipping (or showing of the whip)

At least that was my understanding of it. Maybe 90% correction and 10% coaxing. I suppose age and temperment could play a role as well.

Even if I'm wrong, I'll lie to myself on this one. No one likes to see the animals excessively whipped. (except maybe those clueless folks BMustang mentioned earlier)

mountainman
07-16-2012, 02:04 AM
What's the point? The jock can just say the horse "didn't feel right" and he was simply "protecting the horse."

Might be true...might not be true...either way, you can't do anything about it.

Very astute.

Dony55
07-16-2012, 02:07 AM
As a jockie its all about being in shape and competant on the horse first off, than having a feel for the horse, time, fractions, your surrondings and being able to puck and whip horse at the right time and relax him at other. Its amazing how successfull jockies like a Castellano, leszcano, paco lopez etc they put themselves in the position and than give it everything at the right moment. Some jockies just dont get it buts its obvious how important a jockie is, esp in longer races.

Saying this if you bet horses and want to be succesfull you want a jockie will get every ounce out of the horse but done smartly.

bigmack
07-16-2012, 02:51 AM
Somehow, after all the discussions of nags that put loot in, or out, of readers pockets, I find it of interest to see those that actually stop and think about if a horse minds, or if you will, suffers, just a bit, by a few more cracks of a jockeys whip than might be needed.

Some players feel such thought akin to the anthropomorphic ramblings of horse lovers. It's a game they gamble, little time to think contemplatively about the talent.

I like the way the brain works on this Mark up in West Virginy.

But he eat too many CheeseNips.

(Zappa didn't mean to say - Don't you eat that yellow snow. He meant - Don't you eat them artificially colored orange crackErrrs.)

Stop it!

Kevroc
07-16-2012, 07:10 AM
But he eat too many CheeseNips.



http://countrystore.tabasco.com/images/04014-original.jpg

Almost impossible to not eat the whole box in one sitting.

Saratoga_Mike
07-16-2012, 09:29 AM
What's the point? The jock can just say the horse "didn't feel right" and he was simply "protecting the horse."

Might be true...might not be true...either way, you can't do anything about it.

He's a track official. Therefore, I assume the stewards would be receptive to his relaying such comments (as long as it wasn't a daily occurance). What's the point? If he alerts the stewards to a jock who isn't trying and they agree, the stewards would presumably call the jock in and tell him "we're watching your rides." From your post, I assume you'd say the jock wouldn't care and/or it wouldn't alter his future actions. In some cases, that maybe true and others it would not be true, imo. Ergo, it might be helpful.

Saratoga_Mike
07-16-2012, 09:33 AM
Very astute.

You're a track official. You can't make the observation that you see jockeys (apparently) not trying at your track on a public message board, and then say you attempt to do nothing about it. Wait you can, but it doesn't make you look good. See my post to Pace why your comments might just matter.

sammy the sage
07-16-2012, 10:05 AM
You're a track official. You can't make the observation that you see jockeys (apparently) not trying at your track on a public message board, and then say you attempt to do nothing about it. Wait you can, but it doesn't make you look good. See my post to Pace why your comments might just matter.

Interesting in THE fact that I broached this VERY SAME topic...just 6 weeks ago or so...

and got crucified....

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95078

of course my byline says it all...it's expected...

Back to bigger picture...the O.P. and responses SHOW....yet ANOTHER track...ignoring and eventually destroying it's customer base...oh well

mountainman
07-16-2012, 11:03 AM
Interesting in THE fact that I broached this VERY SAME topic...just 6 weeks ago or so...

and got crucified....

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95078

of course my byline says it all...it's expected...

Back to bigger picture...the O.P. and responses SHOW....yet ANOTHER track...ignoring and eventually destroying it's customer base...oh well

My positions neither qualify nor empower me to bombard the stewards with subjective-and perhaps misguided-opinion. I've got no special entree there. I'm paid at night to inform the public. And my day job does not entail reviewing race films or punishing riders. Period. Nor can i somehow combine my two positions and elevate myself above my lowly station at mnr. I answer to bosses who would quickly and appropriately put me in my place.

As to larceny, real or perceived, occasionally, horses are set up for gambles at every track in america. To think otherwise would be naive, and for me to acknowledge that on a "public forum" should not result in a "gotcha" moment. So please, let's cut the drama.

sammy the sage
07-16-2012, 11:23 AM
My positions neither qualify nor empower me to bombard the stewards with subjective-and perhaps misguided-opinion. I've got no special entree there. I'm paid at night to inform the public. And my day job does not entail reviewing race films or punishing riders. Period. Nor can i somehow combine my two positions and elevate myself above my lowly station at mnr. I answer to bosses who would quickly and appropriately put me in my place.

As to larceny, real or perceived, occasionally, horses are set up for gambles at every track in america. To think otherwise would be naive, and for me to acknowledge that on a "public forum" should not result in a "gotcha" moment. So please, let's cut the drama.

Sir...NOT you...but...your boss's ARE THE one's w/the problem...their VERY aware of it...nothing else to be written...except....you probably love your job...and are VERY talented at what you do...but still...way things are going...I would be LOOKING to the future.

By way...not trying for a gotcha moment...j/geez....just addressing an industry WIDE problem that's being SWEPT under the rug...

mountainman
07-16-2012, 11:24 AM
Yikes.

I am planning on shipping in with a nice little filly next Sunday. Please stay away from the receiving barn if I wander off to the casino to get something to eat... I need this filly happy and eager, not traumatized.

BTW.... special request... can you bring back that F&M NW4L going 7.5f Turf for $15k ?? You ran it June 26, race 4.

Thanks!
.

Grass xtras are rare, sir. We're limited to 12 turfs per week and have a wide range of horses to cover. But I'll look at it and keep you in mind.

Robert Fischer
07-16-2012, 11:25 AM
AIts amazing how successfull jockies like a Castellano, leszcano, paco lopez etc they put themselves in the position and than give it everything at the right moment. .

timing is key

mountainman
07-16-2012, 11:30 AM
Sir...NOT you...but...your boss's ARE THE one's w/the problem...their VERY aware of it...nothing else to be written...except....you probably love your job...and are VERY talented at what you do...but still...way things are going...I would be LOOKING to the future.

By way...not trying for a gotcha moment...j/geez....just addressing an industry WIDE problem that's being SWEPT under the rug...

I hear ya, pal. And I respect your opinions. But give the stewards a break. Larceny is rare and IMPOSSIBLE to prove. As pace alluded to, there are soooooo many excuses a jock can use-and he's the guy on the animal's back. Thats the card a rider can ALWAYS play.

PaceAdvantage
07-16-2012, 11:48 AM
Interesting in THE fact that I broached this VERY SAME topic...just 6 weeks ago or so...

and got crucified....You got crucified? REALLY?

WOW.

I just re-read that thread. What you should be "crucified" for is your use of hyperbole.

mountainman
07-16-2012, 05:07 PM
Somehow, after all the discussions of nags that put loot in, or out, of readers pockets, I find it of interest to see those that actually stop and think about if a horse minds, or if you will, suffers, just a bit, by a few more cracks of a jockeys whip than might be needed.

Some players feel such thought akin to the anthropomorphic ramblings of horse lovers. It's a game they gamble, little time to think contemplatively about the talent.

I like the way the brain works on this Mark up in West Virginy.

But he eat too many CheeseNips.

(Zappa didn't mean to say - Don't you eat that yellow snow. He meant - Don't you eat them artificially colored orange crackErrrs.)

Stop it!

Don't tell anyone, mr aging hipster, but i like you too. Always looking out for me, aren't ya? How ironic that you'll soon be bolstering my cheezit fund. For what it's worth, i promise to consume all 125 (or so) boxes in moderation.

5k-claim
07-17-2012, 03:08 PM
Grass xtras are rare, sir. We're limited to 12 turfs per week and have a wide range of horses to cover. But I'll look at it and keep you in mind.Thanks. :)

I was just hoping that you might be able to squeeze it in at the last minute into that new book that just came out... you already have that race for $30k claimers and I was hoping to skip that one for a cheaper race at $15k.

Hopefully, the $30K will attract some of the $15k horses.... and not come up as hard.

.

johnhannibalsmith
07-17-2012, 07:07 PM
No. I'm just an ast racing sex, and neither that, nor my experience as a handicapper or analyst, empowers or qualifies me to presume I've seen something the stewards missed, or that my opinion is more valid than that of anyone else who watched the same race.

A few years ago or so, after the running of a particular race, I beckoned the chief stew and suggested they watch the running of one particular horse in that race. I mentioned that the owner would probably be fairly upset with the ride he got as I knew he was attending - and wagering. They sat and watch the replay and on the second or third viewing, the aforementioned owner showed up at the office to complain and they were able to assure him that they were in fact reviewing the film. Rider was given 30 for his lack of effort. This is at a grade "E" track and I was always proud of my stews for acknowledging that they missed it the first time and were thankful for having it brought to their attention before being accosted by the owner, and that said rider was actually disciplined - despite his creative explanation. Uncommon, but now and again, miracles do happen.