Hollywood Park....rumors wild this week

[so.cal.fan]

Talk at Hollywood Park and at Santa Anita this past week is this will be Hollywood's last year, and yesterday there was speculation the fall meet may not even materialize.
We've been hearing this for the past 25 years, it never seems to happen.
However, if the Forum has been sold and there is now money to finance redevelopment of the property.....maybe this time will be the last time we hear these rumors.....maybe this is the end of "kicking the can down the road".

I have fond memories of Hollywood Park. I met my husband there in 1964.
Our son was born during the Hollywood Park meet in 1966.
I have had many dear friends over there, sadly many of them are late. :(
The drive from our home to Hollywood everyday is a tough communte.
It always has been, but the older we get, the more stressful it seems to be.
Still.....I will surely miss this racetrack. Another piece of American racing history will be gone. I hope the old place can kick that can down the road one more time.....I'm on my way over there for a Sunday of racing today.

:(

[Al Gobbi]

Sadly, it isn't a surprise to me any more. HP attendance figures are very poor for the big races their, and kind of makes sense giving the TOC TV proposal earlier last month. Got to believe their were some whispers that HP was on its way out then.

[so.cal.fan]

Al?
What was that proposal?
A friend who's wife trains horses at Santa Anita just told me that TVG now has a contract to start broadcasting along with HRTV at Santa Anita.
This is very, very interesting.
What do you know about this?

[Al Gobbi]

Al?
What was that proposal?
A friend who's wife trains horses at Santa Anita just told me that TVG now has a contract to start broadcasting along with HRTV at Santa Anita.
This is very, very interesting.
What do you know about this?

http://www.toconline.com/media/press-releases.php?f=tocacceptsdistributionproposaltable

[Al Gobbi]

So cal fan, if possible explain more to what is the discussions/rumors that is going on with HP.

[lamboguy]

just curious if anyone knows if Hollywood Park is or had pear shared REIT status like Santa Anita had. if my memory serves me correctly a fellow by the name of Gosman bought Santa Anita for that reason in the late 1980's and bought La Quita Inns and then went broke.

[usedtolovetvg]

So cal fan, if possible explain more to what is the discussions/rumors that is going on with HP.

Yes, that was pretty old news. TVG held the hammer in terms of distribution, so the big winner if HP was still running would be Uncle Frank. Now, if HP were to disappear and the only thing that would impact TVG would be trading Del Mar for Santa Anita, well, that would be an entirely different matter.

[BELMONT 6-6-09]

So. Cal,

It's the sign of the times that change is the key word in everything in life..more so then any other time in the past. i guess we continue to roll with the punches, so to speak and keep our cherished memories.

There is the whispers of Aqueduct closing in the future...another wait and see situation. like Hollywood Park Aqueduct has a real history, a place where the horseplayer gathered and wagered on the only game in town..oh how times have changed.:mad:

[so.cal.fan]

Al,
just rumors from track employees, fans and horsemen, that the Forum had been sold to a big NY company that does big music events.
That perhaps they will start selling off property for development piece by piece of the rest of the property, if indeed they did buy it.
That's all I heard. The story got back to Santa Anita and they were talking about it over there.
These rumors of Hollywood's demise have been circulating for decades.
It seems to never happen.
The economy is very bad right now, and chances of a big development there anytime soon are not likely.
But then again, if they aren't making money.........racing......who knows.

[Dan Montilion]

Same rumors about Bay Meadows for same amount of time, Alas Bay Meadows is a memory. I say again, they don't want to be involved long term. Then CHRB should eliminate Hollypark dates.

[so.cal.fan]

Dan,
This is what some people are saying. The dates should go to Santa Anita.
We'll see.

[Canarsie]

Yes, that was pretty old news. TVG held the hammer in terms of distribution, so the big winner if HP was still running would be Uncle Frank. Now, if HP were to disappear and the only thing that would impact TVG would be trading Del Mar for Santa Anita, well, that would be an entirely different matter.


Not necessarily especially if Del Mar requests and is granted additional dates.

It would be interesting to see what Stronach's position is if they split them right down the middle or close to it.

[usedtolovetvg]

Not necessarily especially if Del Mar requests and is granted additional dates.

It would be interesting to see what Stronach's position is if they split them right down the middle or close to it.

Del Mar's charm is both the fact that they race in the summer and for a relatively short time. While, I do agree it would be interesting to see how the dates would be split, for anyone who has been there after Labor Day, it is quite a different atmosphere. More, IMHO, would not be better and could dilute the magic that Del Mar currently holds. Also, TVG derives no money when Del Mar is bet through Xpressbet while Uncle Frank gets a piece of the action for every dollar bet on SA regardless of where it comes from. It would seem that TVG may be getting squeezed by the other big boys.

[Canarsie]

Del Mar's charm is both the fact that they race in the summer and for a relatively short time. While, I do agree it would be interesting to see how the dates would be split, for anyone who has been there after Labor Day, it is quite a different atmosphere. More, IMHO, would not be better and could dilute the magic that Del Mar currently holds. Also, TVG derives no money when Del Mar is bet through Xpressbet while Uncle Frank gets a piece of the action for every dollar bet on SA regardless of where it comes from. It would seem that TVG may be getting squeezed by the other big boys.

You know better than me but I thought that if Delmar was an "exclusive" track TVG gets a bigger slice.


Del Mar submits Breeders’ Cup host site bid

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/national-news/2012/02/07/del-mar-submits-breeders-cup-host-site-bid.aspx


I might not be the smartest fish in the sea but wouldn't they want to run till the final BC race has concluded?

[BlueShoe]

Del Mar's charm is both the fact that they race in the summer and for a relatively short time. While, I do agree it would be interesting to see how the dates would be split, for anyone who has been there after Labor Day, it is quite a different atmosphere.
Way back in October of 1967 Del Mar ran a 20 day fall meeting that turned out to be a near disaster, with attendence something like only half of what it was during the summer meet. Of course that was long before simulcasting and ADW came into being, so things would be much better today, but still a fall meeting would mean reduced revenue from ontrack wagering, admission, parking, and concession sales compared to the summer meeting.

[usedtolovetvg]

You know better than me but I thought that if Delmar was an "exclusive" track TVG gets a bigger slice.

I do not believe that TVG gets any of the handle that does not come directly from TVG. Exclusivity is only in terms of the ability to show the races on their station, HRTV cannot. Different incentives are given for this which may include a lower % returned to the track, charges for crews to attend on big days, and bonuses for showing races live which is part of the WO deal. As far as I know, TVG does not profit from anything that comes to Del Mar through any other site. But, then again, I could be wrong.

[GaryG]

Way back in October of 1967 Del Mar ran a 20 day fall meeting that turned out to be a near disaster, with attendence something like only half of what it was during the summer meet. Of course that was long before simulcasting and ADW came into being, so things would be much better today, but still a fall meeting would mean reduced revenue from ontrack wagering, admission, parking, and concession sales compared to the summer meeting.It happened again around 1980, it was a San Diego County Fair meet I believe with Pomona set back a couple of weeks. It was also a disaster. I got off I-5 right at post time one day and the place looked deserted. I like the Los Al solution.

[BlueShoe]

It happened again around 1980, it was a San Diego County Fair meet I believe with Pomona set back a couple of weeks. It was also a disaster. I got off I-5 right at post time one day and the place looked deserted. I like the Los Al solution.
That was a harness meet, and that didnt work either. Oak Tree started racing in 1969 at Santa Anita after the Pomona Fair. Del Mar has never repeated their failed 1967 TB fall meeting. During this era night harness racing at Hollywood Park and then Los Alamitos was pretty successful. It was the harness people that installed the lights at HOL.

[anotherCAfan]

Del Mar's charm is both the fact that they race in the summer and for a relatively short time. While, I do agree it would be interesting to see how the dates would be split, for anyone who has been there after Labor Day, it is quite a different atmosphere. More, IMHO, would not be better and could dilute the magic that Del Mar currently holds.
:ThmbUp:

Del Mar ends at the right time. I can't really restate what you said, so I'll agree with you.

It happened again around 1980, it was a San Diego County Fair meet I believe with Pomona set back a couple of weeks. It was also a disaster. I got off I-5 right at post time one day and the place looked deserted. I like the Los Al solution.
Didn't Los Al try to expand a while back? That would be an interesting solution.


To echo so.cal.fan and others, I would hate to see HOL go. It may just well be at its end, but I hope not. :(

As weird as this sounds, too bad Frank never bought HOL also. He has put a lot of $$$ into SA.

[so.cal.fan]

John Shear heard today at HP that they got their dates for next meet and next year, I suppose.
They aren't closing as soon as we heard, at least that's the latest "rumor".

[Al Gobbi]

John Shear heard today at HP that they got their dates for next meet and next year, I suppose.
They aren't closing as soon as we heard, at least that's the latest "rumor".

What Hollywood's dates are for next year will depend on Santa Anita's Breeders' Cup status.

[TurfRuler]

So Bet Fair just added their name to Hollywood Park as part of a marketing/advertising campaign, moving up the name to near the top of Equibase and the Daily Racing Form entry charts and results charts?

[Al Gobbi]

The California Horse Racing Board and Thoroughbred Owners of California continue to have top-level discussions with Fairplex Park and Los Alamitos Race Course for the expansion of one of those facilities in the event that Hollywood Park closes.

Read more on BloodHorse.com: http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/73437/talks-continue-about-hollywood-alternatives#ixzz28twSCbew

[edgar]

sa and dmr have ruined ca. racing for me from a handicapping perspective. sa switching surfaces back and forth, the dmr main track surface was stupid-fast this summer. Between that and the big-trainer dominated (tiny) fields was the final straw for me. I liked hol (bhp) the best by far. I was hoping that betfair's five year contract meant that hol would survive but even that probably wouldn't be enough to bring me back wager-wise to be honest.

[usedtolovetvg]

There is no doubt that the real estate market is stabilizing in so cal. Investment opportunities and housing is now at a premium. The time may come in the very near future that HP will be developed. I'm not saying whether or not the venture will be a success, just that the time may be very near that the Bay Meadows Land Co. decides to pull the trigger or fire up the bulldozers.

[so.cal.fan]

Both Fairplex and Los Al are willing to expand their tracks and have these meets.
The question is the money, of course. It's always about that.

We heard the other day at Santa Anita that the top guy over at Los Al is very anxious to make Los Al a bigger track and have the meet there.
Los Al sold off a lot of their original property, so there is a question about this in my mind, but I sure don't know all the facts or plans.


I still think there it still is possible that Santa Anita will get the extra days.
Santa Anita put a lot of money into their track, they renivated the barn area.
Their winter/spring meet could very well be extended to run from Dec.26 through June.
April, May and June here are not hot months. They have very good weather.
July and August and September are always from warm to hot to very hot.
The racing belongs at Del Mar during this time.

Santa Anita could also have an extended meet in the fall, October and November.

What do you guys think?

[edgar]

...What do you guys think?

I think they should get the guys who put in the sa aw track to do the job. (You know, the one that couldn't handle any rain so they cancelled half the meet then tore it out?) [/sarc]

[Tom]

What more do you need than just Santa Anita?

[so.cal.fan]

This is true, Tom.
They do need Del Mar, because Santa Anita had to run the first week of their meet in very HOT weather...it was 107 in Arcadia.
This is very unusual. It only happens once ever 10 or 12 years.

However, the end of July and always AUGUST and early Sept. are always very hot.....we are talking triple digits, too hot in Arcadia.

Hollywood, on the other hand, although cooler in July, it's not that much cooler, and in April, May and June, the weather is just fine in Arcadia.

I have to think that Santa Anita will get these dates. It makes sense....$$$$$ sense, and in the end, that trumps everything else.

[BlueShoe]

Both Fairplex and Los Al are willing to expand their tracks and have these meets.
As a regular at both Los Al and Pomona otb, darned if I can see how Fairplex can expand at all, and while Los Al is more logical, even that might prove difficult. There are permanent buildings on the Pomona fairgrounds that would have to be removed, and going toward White Ave is the stable area. At Los Al there is the large parking lot to the south and a smaller one to the east that could be used. Not really sure if Doc Allred really wants to expand, have asked around a bit out there, and have gotten conflicting opinions and comments.

[RXB]

I doubt that they'd want to just give all of the existing Hol dates to SA. There'd be nothing left of the SA grass course if they ran October-July on it.

[so.cal.fan]

Yes, they would have to limit the number of turf races during May and June, but they would have all of July, August and September to get the course in shape again. The rainy season always limits.
I think they would be able to work this out.

[RaceBookJoe]

Both Fairplex and Los Al are willing to expand their tracks and have these meets.
The question is the money, of course. It's always about that.

We heard the other day at Santa Anita that the top guy over at Los Al is very anxious to make Los Al a bigger track and have the meet there.
Los Al sold off a lot of their original property, so there is a question about this in my mind, but I sure don't know all the facts or plans.


I still think there it still is possible that Santa Anita will get the extra days.
Santa Anita put a lot of money into their track, they renivated the barn area.
Their winter/spring meet could very well be extended to run from Dec.26 through June.
April, May and June here are not hot months. They have very good weather.
July and August and September are always from warm to hot to very hot.
The racing belongs at Del Mar during this time.

Santa Anita could also have an extended meet in the fall, October and November.

What do you guys think?

I remember a few years back of seeing a proposed new track at Los Al built on the outside of the current track to run t-breds. I assume they scraped that plan.

[castaway01]

Wherever they go for expansion, they'll have to weigh the cost of a grass course vs. what they can make in revenue. I have no idea because I haven't been there in so long---could either place put in the turf course outside the dirt? Is there enough space at either track for that to work?

[Paseana]

Wherever they go for expansion, they'll have to weigh the cost of a grass course vs. what they can make in revenue. I have no idea because I haven't been there in so long---could either place put in the turf course outside the dirt? Is there enough space at either track for that to work?

I think when Stronach first bought Santa Anita, he made some noise about doing something like that, but when it became apparent that it would mean tearing out the downhill turf course, he was confronted by massive (and somewhat emotional) opposition from everywhere he looked. It was one of the few times that Frank Stronach has actually backed down once he decided to do something. That El Camino Real Turf Course is pretty much a "sacred cow" around here!

[anotherCAfan]

That El Camino Real Turf Course is pretty much a "sacred cow" around here!
As it should be :)

There is a church of some sort that is north of the Los Al property. The church also has a tiny parking lot. If Los Al could somehow acquire this property, they could make the track less narrow.

[thespaah]

Hollywood closing ...again..
This reminds me of the exchange Michael Corleone has with one of his people when he says "Hyman Roth has been dying of the same heart attack for 20 years".

[nat1223]

to many tracks in cali..they could consolidate and be fine

[Paseana]

Hollywood closing ...again..
This reminds me of the exchange Michael Corleone has with one of his people when he says "Hyman Roth has been dying of the same heart attack for 20 years".

:D
Fact is, though, that while Hollywood Part did commit to the Spring/Summer meet in 2013, when the CHRB asked them to commit to a Fall meeting next year, they would not. I really do think it's going to happen by this time next year or certainly by the spring of 2014.

On a serious note, I do hope that, before the wrecking ball comes through, someone is thinking about what to do about the remains of horses that are buried there. Landaluce was cremated, so relocating her ashes isn't terribly problematic, but Native Diver is another issue. Unless I'm mistaken, I believe he was buried whole and lies under his monument in the Hollywood Park walking ring. Perhaps another fund-raising effort will have to be staged to dis-inter him and move him to Old Friends' Hall Of Fame cemetery.....joining Noor.

I'm also pretty sure that there are others that I'm not aware of. It's something to think about before it's too late.

[mannyberrios]

Hollywood closing ...again..
This reminds me of the exchange Michael Corleone has with one of his people when he says "Hyman Roth has been dying of the same heart attack for 20 years".
So true

[Beachbabe]

As it should be :)

There is a church of some sort that is north of the Los Al property. The church also has a tiny parking lot. If Los Al could somehow acquire this property, they could make the track less narrow.


You write "as it should be" when a person writes that the El Camino Turf Course is pretty much a "sacred cow", but in the next sentence you're advocating the bulldozing of a church so that Los Al's track could be less narrow.
There's some kind of irony there. Anyway, I wouldn't go outside in a thunderstorm for awhile if I were you.

[racingfan378]

Los Al wont expand their track. They dont have the space or parking for it and I cant see them changing that anytime soon. Fairplex is the best option, the most land and could easily build a nice new grandstand to hold more fans.

I havent liked HP for years and So Cal racing just isnt the same since all weather surfaces came into play.

But I am curious...this question is to the voice of HP. Vic, if they do close, what's your race calling plans OR do you just plan to retire since there isnt any jobs available anytime soon.

[plainolebill]

I like Santa Anita but I don't want a year round' diet of it. I hope that some other solution presents itself, having a variety of tracks makes things more interesting.

[v j stauffer]

Los Al wont expand their track. They dont have the space or parking for it and I cant see them changing that anytime soon. Fairplex is the best option, the most land and could easily build a nice new grandstand to hold more fans.

I havent liked HP for years and So Cal racing just isnt the same since all weather surfaces came into play.

But I am curious...this question is to the voice of HP. Vic, if they do close, what's your race calling plans OR do you just plan to retire since there isnt any jobs available anytime soon.

My number 1 and only plan is to call Hollywood Park for the next 30 years. I don't have a number 2 plan. When and if I'm forced to have a #2 plan I can assure you retirement will not be part of it. I'm 53 years old with a daughter in High School and a Marin County mortgage.

[lamboguy]

My number 1 and only plan is to call Hollywood Park for the next 30 years. I don't have a number 2 plan. When and if I'm forced to have a #2 plan I can assure you retirement will not be part of it. I'm 53 years old with a daughter in High School and a Marin County mortgage.i like that plan

[mannyberrios]

My number 1 and only plan is to call Hollywood Park for the next 30 years. I don't have a number 2 plan. When and if I'm forced to have a #2 plan I can assure you retirement will not be part of it. I'm 53 years old with a daughter in High School and a Marin County mortgage.
I'm sure either way you won't have any problems at all

[olddaddy]

My number 1 and only plan is to call Hollywood Park for the next 30 years.

Vin Scully is 85, dont set your goals so low.

[BlueShoe]

Vin Scully is 85, dont set your goals so low.
And Chick Hearn was 85 and still calling Laker games with no intention of retirement up until his untimely death in an accident.

[v j stauffer]

Both announcing icons. I just try to get em around there without sounding too stupid.

[so.cal.fan]

We love Vic....he's a great racecaller and a good guy!
I'm sure if and when HP closes up, V.S. will be snapped up by another good track.

[usedtolovetvg]

The writing is on the wall for HP. Will V.J. be able to get another job? YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.

[MickJ26]

Even if Hollywood stays in business, I would love to hear Vic call the Aqueduct Inner. There's only a slight overlap in the meets. My two fave racecallers on the same circuit (Vic and Durkin) would be awesome.

[thespaah]

My number 1 and only plan is to call Hollywood Park for the next 30 years. I don't have a number 2 plan. When and if I'm forced to have a #2 plan I can assure you retirement will not be part of it. I'm 53 years old with a daughter in High School and a Marin County mortgage.
Marin County...Nice....and expensive...Ouch!
I take it you rent an apartment in LA when you're working Hollywood?
That would be one helluva commute!

[v j stauffer]

Marin County...Nice....and expensive...Ouch!
I take it you rent an apartment in LA when you're working Hollywood?
That would be one helluva commute!

It's quite a commute indeed. However it's what I do. Not a crazy as you might think. I fly in Thurs. morn and home right after the races Sunday night. My wonderful wife takes care of everything. Packing, boarding passes, drops me off and picks me up. Only three nights in a hotel and 4 nights at home. Cost is not too crazy with far in advance purchases on Southwest and building up rewards points. Tough when fightning the masses especially on Sunday but totally worth it to be with my family.

[judd]

We love Vic....he's a great racecaller and a good guy!
I'm sure if and when HP closes up, V.S. will be snapped up by another good track. do you get inside info ? horses ready to fire

[thespaah]

It's quite a commute indeed. However it's what I do. Not a crazy as you might think. I fly in Thurs. morn and home right after the races Sunday night. My wonderful wife takes care of everything. Packing, boarding passes, drops me off and picks me up. Only three nights in a hotel and 4 nights at home. Cost is not too crazy with far in advance purchases on Southwest and building up rewards points. Tough when fightning the masses especially on Sunday but totally worth it to be with my family.
Ok...Cool!..Hopefully this thing with Hollywood will blow over and you'll keep getting to make that commute.

[anotherCAfan]

You write "as it should be" when a person writes that the El Camino Turf Course is pretty much a "sacred cow", but in the next sentence you're advocating the bulldozing of a church so that Los Al's track could be less narrow.
There's some kind of irony there. Anyway, I wouldn't go outside in a thunderstorm for awhile if I were you.
Interesting that you have made certain assumptions for me. I was outside in last week's thunderstorm and I survived enough to go to Church today. I thank my Lord and Savior for every day that He gives me. By all means, it is your God-given right to continue making assumptions about me. :)

It is quite possible that the church in question could always be relocated to a bigger facility. This church could do an exchange of land with the Los Al owners to receive a parcel of land closer to their school (currently an unused parcel of Los Al parking). One would conclude that the Los Al owner has thought of this?

If Los Al ever wanted a turf course, they might think of this.

[v j stauffer]

do you get inside info ? horses ready to fire

Not as much now that I don't bet. Used to get them all the time. Usually 3 or 4 in the same race. Never amounted to anything. Mostly onesided info with little regard to the competition. Trust your own handicapping. Do your own hard work. The guys that consistently win do precisely that.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Not as much now that I don't bet. Used to get them all the time. Usually 3 or 4 in the same race. Never amounted to anything. Mostly onesided info with little regard to the competition. Trust your own handicapping. Do your own hard work. The guys that consistently win do precisely that.

Sharp post.

[dilanesp]

Best solution is just don't award the dates. Live racing succeeds only in markets where it is not year round. Degenerates can still play simulcast races, and horsemen can ship to Northern California during the breaks.

[v j stauffer]

Best solution is just don't award the dates. Live racing succeeds only in markets where it is not year round. Degenerates can still play simulcast races, and horsemen can ship to Northern California during the breaks.

Baffert, Mandella, Sadler, Drysdale, Miller et al shipping to Golden Gate. Preposterous. They don't have alot of 4000nw2 and maiden8000's in their barns. They also all charge about $100 per day. Purses could not possibly support those fees. Southern California must run very close to year round or lose their lifeblood of big barns to NY, FLA and Kentucky.

[Fingal]

Be careful Vic, you're using logic.

[BlueShoe]

It's quite a commute indeed. However it's what I do. Not a crazy as you might think. I fly in Thurs. morn and home right after the races Sunday night. My wonderful wife takes care of everything. Packing, boarding passes, drops me off and picks me up. Only three nights in a hotel and 4 nights at home. Cost is not too crazy with far in advance purchases on Southwest and building up rewards points. Tough when fightning the masses especially on Sunday but totally worth it to be with my family.
This part of a racecaller's life is one that I have wondered about. Many of the nation's top track announcers work different meets far apart. This requires maintaining two separate homes. Besides the substantial added expense, more significant is the strain of separation from home and family. This could lead to the temptation of making bad lifestyle choices such as alcohol and drug abuse, poor eating habits, or affairs. The death of Luke Kruytbosch was said to have been caused in part by bad food choices, perhaps because of being away from home. Would certainly think that a patient, supportive wife would certainly be an asset to any announcer that must work far from home part of the year.

[v j stauffer]

This part of a racecaller's life is one that I have wondered about. Many of the nation's top track announcers work different meets far apart. This requires maintaining two separate homes. Besides the substantial added expense, more significant is the strain of separation from home and family. This could lead to the temptation of making bad lifestyle choices such as alcohol and drug abuse, poor eating habits, or affairs. The death of Luke Kruytbosch was said to have been caused in part by bad food choices, perhaps because of being away from home. Would certainly think that a patient, supportive wife would certainly be an asset to any announcer that must work far from home part of the year.

It's not for me to comment on Luke other than to say he was truly a very good soul and I miss him very much.

Lifestyle choices are just that, choices. Where you work, especially if you're lucky enough to get paid for going to the races everyday should have nothing to do with making destructive decisions.

The one exception IMO is marriage and family. I believe it's close to impossible to be a good husband and father if you're hopscotching around the country. Some have no choice and try to make the best of a very difficult situation.

I never thought it would be fair to try to juggle both. That's why I stayed single until I was 50. When I did find the perfect partner I promised her only two things. I would try to always be a good boy. Eh? And I would not take any jobs that would cause extended time away from my family.

In that regard I've been truly blessed and can honestly say I'm a very lucky man.

Now if I could just get The Little Guy to loosen up? Valhalla!!!:)

[thespaah]

It's not for me to comment on Luke other than to say he was truly a very good soul and I miss him very much.

Lifestyle choices are just that, choices. Where you work, especially if you're lucky enough to get paid for going to the races everyday should have nothing to do with making destructive decisions.

The one exception IMO is marriage and family. I believe it's close to impossible to be a good husband and father if you're hopscotching around the country. Some have no choice and try to make the best of a very difficult situation.

I never thought it would be fair to try to juggle both. That's why I stayed single until I was 50. When I did find the perfect partner I promised her only two things. I would try to always be a good boy. Eh? And I would not take any jobs that would cause extended time away from my family.

In that regard I've been truly blessed and can honestly say I'm a very lucky man.

Now if I could just get The Little Guy to loosen up? Valhalla!!!:)
I believe the toughest jobs in this context are those of Major League baseball umpires, NHL and NBA officials as well. Seasons are long and 90% spent out of town away from family.

[dilanesp]

Baffert, Mandella, Sadler, Drysdale, Miller et al shipping to Golden Gate. Preposterous. They don't have alot of 4000nw2 and maiden8000's in their barns. They also all charge about $100 per day. Purses could not possibly support those fees. Southern California must run very close to year round or lose their lifeblood of big barns to NY, FLA and Kentucky.

If that were true, Oaklawn would be a failure, and horse racing in Europe would never work. Further, horse racing in the US pre-1970 would have been a failure.

In reality, horsemen would adjust because Florida and New York are unpleasant places for much of the year.

They might, however, face more competition and make less money, which is what happens in more successful racing markets.

[PaceAdvantage]

In reality, horsemen would adjust because Florida and New York are unpleasant places for much of the year.If by much of the year, you mean about 3 months, or 25% of the year, yeah, I guess.

It didn't snow once last year (of any significance), nor did it get below the freezing mark many nights....

[alhattab]

If that were true, Oaklawn would be a failure, and horse racing in Europe would never work. Further, horse racing in the US pre-1970 would have been a failure.

In reality, horsemen would adjust because Florida and New York are unpleasant places for much of the year.

They might, however, face more competition and make less money, which is what happens in more successful racing markets.

Not a true compare. Many of the Oaklawn people go one other place during the year, like KY, Chicago or NY. Some may do two, but they are "on the way". For example, one may do Oaklawn, Keeneland, Churchill/Arlington, then reverse on way back to Oaklawn for the winter. I don't know how one structures a CA season with, say, SA running its Winter/spring meet, then Del Mar its current schedule. Maybe as some suggest SA runs thru June, then Del Mar, then a month hiatus at Plex, them another month @ SA, then another month off until Boxing Day? possible but that haul at SA seems really long.

[v j stauffer]

If that were true, Oaklawn would be a failure, and horse racing in Europe would never work. Further, horse racing in the US pre-1970 would have been a failure.

In reality, horsemen would adjust because Florida and New York are unpleasant places for much of the year.

They might, however, face more competition and make less money, which is what happens in more successful racing markets.

Not worth arguing. I disagree.

[castaway01]

Best solution is just don't award the dates. Live racing succeeds only in markets where it is not year round. Degenerates can still play simulcast races, and horsemen can ship to Northern California during the breaks.

Can you name any major markets where they don't race basically year round, other than a week off here or there? The California, Kentucky, Florida, and New York circuits all race year round. Not sure how you judge "success" but live racing is certainly a success at some tracks in those markets.

[usedtolovetvg]

If racing is going to survive, they will have to suffer through some sort of major contraction, either in venues, dates or both. When I was a kid, racing shut down for about 5 months. There was only one track to bet. We were chomping at the bit to get back at it. The fact that the big days and the boutique meets do well indicates there is still a market for the sport. Perhaps it is just over-saturated. The current fan base is insufficient to support all the tracks and races. Now, if they put sports betting at the tracks and don't allow it over the internet that could change everything.

[dilanesp]

Not a true compare. Many of the Oaklawn people go one other place during the year, like KY, Chicago or NY. Some may do two, but they are "on the way". For example, one may do Oaklawn, Keeneland, Churchill/Arlington, then reverse on way back to Oaklawn for the winter. I don't know how one structures a CA season with, say, SA running its Winter/spring meet, then Del Mar its current schedule. Maybe as some suggest SA runs thru June, then Del Mar, then a month hiatus at Plex, them another month @ SA, then another month off until Boxing Day? possible but that haul at SA seems really long.

The point is horsemen may LIKE year round racing (which is terrible for the animals and the sport) but they also adapt if they can't have it. And with simulcasting, we simply need to get rid of a lot of redundant racing to improve attendance. The closure of Hollywood Park is an opportunity to reverse the big mistake made in 1981 of going year round.

[dilanesp]

Can you name any major markets where they don't race basically year round, other than a week off here or there? The California, Kentucky, Florida, and New York circuits all race year round. Not sure how you judge "success" but live racing is certainly a success at some tracks in those markets.

Every European market, Arkansas, and every US market back when racing was successful.

[Dahoss9698]

Every European market, Arkansas, and every US market back when racing was successful.
Arkansas is a major market?

Do you know what major means?

[the little guy]

Arkansas is a major market?

Do you know what major means?

He doesn't know what truth means, so why should major be any different?

[PaceAdvantage]

The point is horsemen may LIKE year round racing (which is terrible for the animals and the sport) but they also adapt if they can't have it.Let's say NY shut down for the winter. Are you implying "the animals" would just sit in their stalls for three or four months or go to the farm for the winter?

Or would they be shipped elsewhere where they could continue to race and earn a check?

[therussmeister]

Every European market, Arkansas, and every US market back when racing was successful.
How do you define successful?

[Ca9]

Not as much now that I don't bet. Used to get them all the time. Usually 3 or 4 in the same race. Never amounted to anything. Mostly onesided info with little regard to the competition. Trust your own handicapping. Do your own hard work. The guys that consistently win do precisely that.

Not as much now that I don't bet.

Why?

[thespaah]

To get to a more truthful discussion of this issue is first for everyone to divulge their agenda.
Before opining, please say what your interest is in the game
Occasional player...Hard hitting high dollar bettor, interested in the survival of the sport as a whole..
Then we can get to the meat and potatoes.
I think everyone's interests should be addressed. I think people from all angles should have an input.
One thing is a certainty, in order for this game to survive and succeed is there need for changes.

[thespaah]

Let's say NY shut down for the winter. Are you implying "the animals" would just sit in their stalls for three or four months or go to the farm for the winter?

Or would they be shipped elsewhere where they could continue to race and earn a check?
Thoroughbred horses campaigns are so limited in number of races per year. If certain jurisdictions shut down for the winter, it probably would not matter.
I believe as there are horses that are not raced in the colder months, there are just as many not raced in the spring and summer.
For example, NYRA does not card races for 10k claimers at Belmont or Saratoga.. There are many races for that level at Aqueduct.
Where are these horses when in NY there is nowhere for them to race? Do they get shipped to Finger Lakes? Out of State?
As one can see, I am making no conclusions nor am I stating what I believe to be facts.

[alhattab]

The point is horsemen may LIKE year round racing (which is terrible for the animals and the sport) but they also adapt if they can't have it. And with simulcasting, we simply need to get rid of a lot of redundant racing to improve attendance. The closure of Hollywood Park is an opportunity to reverse the big mistake made in 1981 of going year round.

The point is that there IS year-round racing. Just because Oaklawn is open for 50-60 dates is irrelevant. Those trainers move on after Oaklawn ends and can conveniently do so because of the relative proximity of top-rate tracks and/or the ability to make one ship and go East where many opportunities exist. Even if we could mandate the no horse can run for more than 6 straight months, the horses being rotated in need someplace to run. California is a different dynamic because it is effectively on an island.

[affirmedny]

Not as much now that I don't bet.

Why?

He's a steward. Seeing a steward at the betting window would probably not sit well with some people.

[racingfan378]

In response to Vic, I do wish him all the best!

But the future of HP is very dim and the race calling jobs out there are far and few in between, luck is involved and usually the cheapest guy gets the gigs anymore. I know years ago that Frank M. was wanted at Charles Town and he didnt get hired b/c of what he wanted per day. Look who is there now, the guy sucks! Or how Ed B from Los Al was the guy they flew into NM to call the Ruidoso's All American and not the usual guy who calls the races.

That would be like Vic calling every race at HP but when it came down to the biggest race of the meet, they kick him out of the booth and in comes Durkin, Dooley, etc

I could rattle off a list of bad race callers who work in today's operations who have been hired b/c they are the cheaper option.

Vic got an unlucky break at GP and it would suck to lose him due to HP closing.

As Vic said on TVG one day (more or less)..."those rats at GP" :D

[thespaah]

In response to Vic, I do wish him all the best!

But the future of HP is very dim and the race calling jobs out there are far and few in between, luck is involved and usually the cheapest guy gets the gigs anymore. I know years ago that Frank M. was wanted at Charles Town and he didnt get hired b/c of what he wanted per day. Look who is there now, the guy sucks! Or how Ed B from Los Al was the guy they flew into NM to call the Ruidoso's All American and not the usual guy who calls the races.

That would be like Vic calling every race at HP but when it came down to the biggest race of the meet, they kick him out of the booth and in comes Durkin, Dooley, etc

I could rattle off a list of bad race callers who work in today's operations who have been hired b/c they are the cheaper option.

Vic got an unlucky break at GP and it would suck to lose him due to HP closing.

As Vic said on TVG one day (more or less)..."those rats at GP" :D
If there is one occupation that has become nearly impossible for the highest and best talented people to find work is announcing sports or for that matter on radio.
For example, minor league hockey and baseball. Announcers are usually just out of college willing to work for peanuts. These people are terrible at their trade. However, the organization is not looking to hire talent. They are looking to fill the job with anyone who has a pulse that will work cheap. Mainly because the ratings for radio broadcasts are non existent. So why spend the money on talent if no one is listening.
I think the same thing may be happening in the racing industry. IMO many race callers are not very good. But they probably take whatever they can get in wages just to get the work. They are people who love what they do. And money is not an issue.
I think the days of tracks hiring the consummate pro announcer that has a great set of pipes and real talent are over. The tracks are thinning their budgets.

[v j stauffer]

In response to Vic, I do wish him all the best!

But the future of HP is very dim and the race calling jobs out there are far and few in between, luck is involved and usually the cheapest guy gets the gigs anymore. I know years ago that Frank M. was wanted at Charles Town and he didnt get hired b/c of what he wanted per day. Look who is there now, the guy sucks! Or how Ed B from Los Al was the guy they flew into NM to call the Ruidoso's All American and not the usual guy who calls the races.

That would be like Vic calling every race at HP but when it came down to the biggest race of the meet, they kick him out of the booth and in comes Durkin, Dooley, etc

I could rattle off a list of bad race callers who work in today's operations who have been hired b/c they are the cheaper option.

Vic got an unlucky break at GP and it would suck to lose him due to HP closing.

As Vic said on TVG one day (more or less)..."those rats at GP" :D

If I said that on TVG it was totally tongue in cheek. My 7 years at GP were an absolute joy. I treasure each and every day and memory. It was my promotion up to the majors. I'm quite sure being at Gulfstream opened the door to Hollywood Park which was and still is a lifelong dream.

The circumstances of my firing were painfully typical. A new regime comes in and wants to bring in a whole new, familiar staff to start with a clean slate. Happens in the coporate world and certainly sports all the time. We often see a new manager or head coach come in, clean house, bring in his people and start fresh. I was devestated. However, I understood, tried to cowboy up and move forward.

I'll never be able to thank GP in general and Doug Donn, Scott Savin and Mike Tanner specifically for the privledge and honor to call seven Florida Derby's.

Hal's Hope
Monarchos
Harlans's Holiday
Friends Lake
Empire Maker
Barbaro :(
High Fly

You know how they say. "One door closes another opens" That literally happened for me. Had I stayed a GP I would never have met my amazing, wonderful bride Tina. I'd rather spend one day with her than 10 years at Gulfstream.

Rod Steward sang " Some guys have all the luck" I think he might have meant me:)

[castaway01]

You know how they say. "One door closes another opens" That literally happened for me. Had I stayed a GP I would never have met my amazing, wonderful bride Tina. I'd rather spend one day with her than 10 years at Gulfstream.

Rod Steward sang " Some guys have all the luck" I think he might have meant me:)

If anyone is allowed to make the "Steward/Stewart" mistake, it's a guy who served as one.

[v j stauffer]

If anyone is allowed to make the "Steward/Stewart" mistake, it's a guy who served as one.

It wasn't a mistake. There's a neighbor of mine. Rod Steward and his wife Madge. They cover that song in their garage jam sessions all the time. :confused:

[usedtolovetvg]

I know him, Rod Steward and his wife Madgie May.

[Al Gobbi]

In the absence of a commitment from Hollywood's owner, the California Horse Racing Board, the Thoroughbred Owners of California announced it was holding "top level discussions" that could lead to a new training and racing location. Development plans for the 238-acre site remain stalled while the track's owner awaits a more favorable economic climate.

As far as track president Jack Liebau is concerned, pursuing a post-Hollywood Park plan is something that already should have been tackled. "Hollywood isn't always going to be available for racing," Hollywood's veteran track executive said Oct. 13. "It probably should have been done much earlier".

According to Lou Raffetto, president of the TOC, estimates that if Hollywood were to go away, stabling for 800 to 1,000 horses would be required in Southern California in addition to the 2,000 stalls available at Santa Anita Park. In addition, Santa Anita would likely pursue additional spring dates. Raffetto believes that Del Mar would be a good location for an expanded fall season in the future. He knows that will create cost and logistical problems for horsemen but is something that could be dealt with when the time comes.

http://www.thoroughbredchampions.com/showthread.php/14481-No-Friday-Night-Racing-This-Fall-at-Hollywood

[dilanesp]

The point is that there IS year-round racing. Just because Oaklawn is open for 50-60 dates is irrelevant. Those trainers move on after Oaklawn ends and can conveniently do so because of the relative proximity of top-rate tracks and/or the ability to make one ship and go East where many opportunities exist. Even if we could mandate the no horse can run for more than 6 straight months, the horses being rotated in need someplace to run. California is a different dynamic because it is effectively on an island.

No racing circuit is an island at this point in history. It's very cost-effective to transport horses-- which is why we see even claimers move long distances to different racetracks.

The sport dies, eventually, as a day-to-day gambling enterprise unless we end up with far, far fewer racing dates nationally. That's the economic effect of simulcasting. Essentially, simulcasting creates competition between different tracks racing around the country racing at the same time who in the past could have protected their handles-- as a result the optimal number of tracks operating at once nationally is probably some number between one and five, whereas in the past it might have been 25.

In that environment, racing circuits are going to end up facing a choice-- go bankrupt, subsidize the industry (which is what slots do, for instance), or slash racing dates precipitously. The horsemen don't matter. They will race their horses and pay the higher costs because they have to-- the only other choice is to get out of the business.

But that's what has to happen. The current model is economically unsustainable without extreme government subsidies that aren't coming and won't be reliable if they do come. Closing Hollywood and moving the races somewhere else won't solve California's problem-- the new holder of the dates will lose just as much money as Hollywood has been.

[dilanesp]

Let's say NY shut down for the winter. Are you implying "the animals" would just sit in their stalls for three or four months or go to the farm for the winter?

Or would they be shipped elsewhere where they could continue to race and earn a check?

Some will go somewhere else, others won't. Just as some horses in 1965 shipped to Florida or California, and some turned out. Which was still much better for the animals than what goes on now.

[dilanesp]

How do you define successful?

Attendance and profitability of live racing operations. (If the owners are only making money on their simulcasts or account wagering, they could presumably make more money by shutting down live racing.) Only a small handful of tracks in North America are successful.

[PaceAdvantage]

Some will go somewhere else, others won't. Just as some horses in 1965 shipped to Florida or California, and some turned out. Which was still much better for the animals than what goes on now.I would venture a guess it's a lot more easier and profitable to ship somewhere else and run in 2012/2013 than it was in 1965. Lots more opportunities elsewhere as well compared to 1965...

[alhattab]

No racing circuit is an island at this point in history. It's very cost-effective to transport horses-- which is why we see even claimers move long distances to different racetracks.

The sport dies, eventually, as a day-to-day gambling enterprise unless we end up with far, far fewer racing dates nationally. That's the economic effect of simulcasting. Essentially, simulcasting creates competition between different tracks racing around the country racing at the same time who in the past could have protected their handles-- as a result the optimal number of tracks operating at once nationally is probably some number between one and five, whereas in the past it might have been 25.

In that environment, racing circuits are going to end up facing a choice-- go bankrupt, subsidize the industry (which is what slots do, for instance), or slash racing dates precipitously. The horsemen don't matter. They will race their horses and pay the higher costs because they have to-- the only other choice is to get out of the business.

But that's what has to happen. The current model is economically unsustainable without extreme government subsidies that aren't coming and won't be reliable if they do come. Closing Hollywood and moving the races somewhere else won't solve California's problem-- the new holder of the dates will lose just as much money as Hollywood has been.

So after saying all that your proposal for CA is what? Close after SA in April, reopen for in mid July, run at Fairplex then reopen SA on Boxing Day? I don't see howmthatnworks for CA horsemen as they would have to either lay up for 3 months late April-mid Jly, then again early Sept to late Dec, ship at least 2,000 miles at least once if not twice a year, or just move east where they can GOP,and down the coast with relative ease. I believe that is Vic's point.

[usedtolovetvg]

The simulcasting laws are archaic When simulcasting first came into being, the tracks gave away the product. Almost all tracks now have their own ADW. Reverse the current split between ADWs and the tracks. Better to lose a bunch of ADWs that have no skin in the game than an entire industry.

[usedtolovetvg]

Just looking at Los Al handle numbers, they are so far down this year, one has to believe that they are just hanging on hoping that HP collapses. I honestly don't know how they can continue, down nearly another 25% most days yoy.

[BlueShoe]

Just looking at Los Al handle numbers, they are so far down this year, one has to believe that they are just hanging on hoping that HP collapses. I honestly don't know how they can continue, down nearly another 25% most days yoy.
Simulcasting. They are open 7 days a week for otb, not just the 4 days that California races. Like every other site, business is down sharply from what it was a few years ago, but Los Al has a decent base of steady patrons, mostly older men, as expected. We have heard rumors that if the quarters cease live racing the Doc will close the place, thus it's future is a bit murky. The place is just too large and expensive to operate without horses to just continue as an otb site. The future of California simulcasting may lie in the opening and operation of mini satellites, which can operate with overhead and expenses a fraction of what it costs to maintain a racetrack. The few that have opened have been pretty successful, with one recently opened in Santa Clarita and another in the planning stage in Lake Forest.

[dilanesp]

Simulcasting. They are open 7 days a week for otb, not just the 4 days that California races. Like every other site, business is down sharply from what it was a few years ago, but Los Al has a decent base of steady patrons, mostly older men, as expected. We have heard rumors that if the quarters cease live racing the Doc will close the place, thus it's future is a bit murky. The place is just too large and expensive to operate without horses to just continue as an otb site. The future of California simulcasting may lie in the opening and operation of mini satellites, which can operate with overhead and expenses a fraction of what it costs to maintain a racetrack. The few that have opened have been pretty successful, with one recently opened in Santa Clarita and another in the planning stage in Lake Forest.

Racebook at Commerce too.

This is the future. The natural consequence of simulcasting is you need far less live racing because there are network externalities in the fact that people like to play in the biggest pools on the best races. But there is no reason other than legal inaction why yo u need a full racing facility to take bets on the races.

[dilanesp]

So after saying all that your proposal for CA is what? Close after SA in April, reopen for in mid July, run at Fairplex then reopen SA on Boxing Day? I don't see howmthatnworks for CA horsemen as they would have to either lay up for 3 months late April-mid Jly, then again early Sept to late Dec, ship at least 2,000 miles at least once if not twice a year, or just move east where they can GOP,and down the coast with relative ease. I believe that is Vic's point.

Believe it or not, from the 1930's to the 1960's there was one, not two, racing circuits in California, and trainers did ship (and it would have been by van or train in those days).

Horsemen have no choice. They will adapt to whatever rules are set because if they do not someone else will. Eventually there will be far less racing, because the effect of simulcasting will force the issue absent subsidies. Horsemen have no power to repeal economic realities.

[dilanesp]

I would venture a guess it's a lot more easier and profitable to ship somewhere else and run in 2012/2013 than it was in 1965. Lots more opportunities elsewhere as well compared to 1965...

That door swings both ways. It is also easier to ship in for a race meeting, which means year round racing on one circuit is less necessary.

[Dahoss9698]

That door swings both ways. It is also easier to ship in for a race meeting, which means year round racing on one circuit is less necessary.

Since you ignored it, I'm going to ask again. How is Arkansas a major circuit?

[alhattab]

Believe it or not, from the 1930's to the 1960's there was one, not two, racing circuits in California, and trainers did ship (and it would have been by van or train in those days).

Horsemen have no choice. They will adapt to whatever rules are set because if they do not someone else will. Eventually there will be far less racing, because the effect of simulcasting will force the issue absent subsidies. Horsemen have no power to repeal economic realities.

No argument that adaptation is necessary. Just saying that if So Cal only runs part of the year that adaptation will be to leave the state. No Cal will not offer sufficient purses needed for major league racing, such as it is today. The better horses will come East and stay here.

[usedtolovetvg]

It only seems logical that racing will go through some sort of contraction. I would not be surprised to see only 3 or 4 tracks surviving once the slot money disappears, which it will. These tracks will take all the simulcasting and online money. Socal racing would certainly appear to be in jeopardy. Once the bloodletting is finished and if the industry is able to replace their aging demographic with a younger one, the sport may then begin to rebuild slowly in the areas where racing has disappeared.

[Al Gobbi]

It only seems logical that racing will go through some sort of contraction. I would not be surprised to see only 3 or 4 tracks surviving once the slot money disappears, which it will. These tracks will take all the simulcasting and online money. Socal racing would certainly appear to be in jeopardy. Once the bloodletting is finished and if the industry is able to replace their aging demographic with a younger one, the sport may then begin to rebuild slowly in the areas where racing has disappeared.
3-4 is a bit harsh. I think it will be around 15-20.

[Robert Goren]

If racing in southern California can't survive, what does that say about NY racing without slot money? If racing can't survive in places with large population bases, it probably can't survive anyplace. As stands very tracks are making without slot money. Even the one that are solvent are hanging on by a thread. We all know that the slot money is not going last much longer as the states will find other uses for that money. Racing has gone to the state legislatures time and time with one plan after another to save the sport . None have worked long term and racing has worn out its welcome with most state senators. Almost every place there is a race track, the land it sits on would be worth more if the race track wasn't there. That doesn't bide well for future of those tracks. If I sound bleak, it because the situation is bleak.

[BlueShoe]

Racebook at Commerce too.
Very successful, the place has been crowded each time have been there. The OC Tavern in San Clemente has also done very well from I have heard. Unsure about the Santa Maria restaurant, have not gotten any info. Have not heard of any minis opening or planned for Northern California, which certainly is ripe for one. In the entire northern third of the state, north of Sacramento and Santa Rosa, there is only one otb site, that in Anderson, a small town just south of Redding.
www.octavern.com/horse-racing (http://www.octavern.com/horse-racing)

[usedtolovetvg]

If I sound bleak, it because the situation is bleak.

Robert, I agree with you on many levels but don't believe that the situation is as bleak as you suggest. When I was a kid, there was only one track racing about 5 months that I could bet on and that was just 8 races over 5 and 1/2 hours. Today I think that the sport is over-saturated given the amount of players. How many races can we now bet on any given day? I think the supply vastly exceeds the demand. The boutique meets clearly can exist on their own. The big days are also drawing huge crowds and record-setting handle. The problem is the day in day out races, 364 days a year. There will be a massive restructuring and major contraction but I do think the sport will survive. How well the industry is able to handle this will dictate how quickly it will be able to bounce back. There will be a major blood-letting. Many jobs will be lost. I believe out of the ashes the sport will rise leaner but stronger and more realistic in these changing times.

[Hambletonian]

that back when most of us grew up...when the local track shut down there was no convenient way to bet elsewhere, OTW was in its infancy and internet betting was a pipe dream.

fact is, you shut down today and you lose your business to someone else. the shear volume of gambling opportunities is staggering as compared to 30 years ago, and almost no one is going to sit on their bankroll. if you own a restaurant, would you close it 5 months out of the year so that people would be banging at your door when you reopened? it not like they are going to fast...people need to eat :) they will just go somewhere else

[usedtolovetvg]

They come back to Del Mar & Saratoga every year. I am a snowbird and I'm pretty sure there several restaurants and businesses in Florida that only operate 'in season'. How about ski resorts? I really believe that it can happen if the product is worth it.

[johnhannibalsmith]

... As stands very tracks are making without slot money. Even the one that are solvent are hanging on by a thread. We all know that the slot money is not going last much longer as the states will find other uses for that money...

Of course, what's missing from this is the reality that if the slot-infused enterprises were to go tits up, those hanging on by a thread would suddenly find themselves vastly more viable. The slot subsidies are a double-edged sword and both edges are gutting the long-term chances of racing as a whole. These places are largely being rewarded for a poor business model with no end-game and no innovations and in the process, those that so much as try to innovate without slot subisidies are being punished because they are operating within the same industry, but using a totally different economic model. If handle is the traditional measure of success (and revenue), but only one group within the industry measures success by that marker uniquely, it becomes a defeatist mentality where the only way to even become competitive is to get on the "level field" where innovation to achieve that traditional measure of success (handle) is largely irrelevant.

The key to the bleakness not being so bleak is to have the states hit the fast-forward button and extinguish the slot-subsidized lifeline before the non-slot subsidized can no longer hang on to that thread. I've long maintained to those around me that the key to any chance of long-term success is to weather the storm and not go groveling for subsidies, but to just concentrate on how to effectively stay in the game long enough to be around when the shit hits the fans and then capitalize on a sudden lack of competition where everyone is once again operating on the same plane and same standards and measures of success.

[usedtolovetvg]

I've long maintained to those around me that the key to any chance of long-term success is to weather the storm and not go groveling for subsidies, but to just concentrate on how to effectively stay in the game long enough to be around when the shit hits the fans and then capitalize on a sudden lack of competition where everyone is once again operating on the same plane and same standards and measures of success.

Exactly right :ThmbUp: ! The problem is the bozos running the industry don't get it. Those that went for this quick fix are beginning to pay the price. The Ontario Government has started the snowball rolling. The States will follow and they won't be as generous as the socialists in Canada by giving the tracks a hand-out for a few more years. Those tracks that didn't get slot revenue don't realize how lucky they are. They were forced to operate a business model that was not artificially inflated. It is from this group that the survivors will emerge.

[dilanesp]

that back when most of us grew up...when the local track shut down there was no convenient way to bet elsewhere, OTW was in its infancy and internet betting was a pipe dream.

fact is, you shut down today and you lose your business to someone else. the shear volume of gambling opportunities is staggering as compared to 30 years ago, and almost no one is going to sit on their bankroll. if you own a restaurant, would you close it 5 months out of the year so that people would be banging at your door when you reopened? it not like they are going to fast...people need to eat :) they will just go somewhere else

That isn't how horse racing works. With simulcasting, there will always be races to bet on somewhere. So there is no danger of bettors losing interest.

Further, there is no evidence that ANY sport works this way. Do people lose interest in pro football because of the long off season? Do gamblers?

[dilanesp]

No argument that adaptation is necessary. Just saying that if So Cal only runs part of the year that adaptation will be to leave the state. No Cal will not offer sufficient purses needed for major league racing, such as it is today. The better horses will come East and stay here.
Actually Golden Gate's purses would increase in that scenario forrather obvious reasonz.

[dilanesp]

Since you ignored it, I'm going to ask again. How is Arkansas a major circuit?

Oaklawn is a profitable track with big races. It isn't a circuit, but who cares? The "circuits " you celebrate lose money on live racing.

[dilanesp]

If racing in southern California can't survive, what does that say about NY racing without slot money? If racing can't survive in places with large population bases, it probably can't survive anyplace. As stands very tracks are making without slot money. Even the one that are solvent are hanging on by a thread. We all know that the slot money is not going last much longer as the states will find other uses for that money. Racing has gone to the state legislatures time and time with one plan after another to save the sport . None have worked long term and racing has worn out its welcome with most state senators. Almost every place there is a race track, the land it sits on would be worth more if the race track wasn't there. That doesn't bide well for future of those tracks. If I sound bleak, it because the situation is bleak.

Racing can easily survive. It just will be concentrated at a few mega-tracks runnng shorter seasons. The beauty of the free market is that if there is too much supply, contraction will occur until the remaining firms are profitable.

[Dahoss9698]

Oaklawn is a profitable track with big races. It isn't a circuit, but who cares? The "circuits " you celebrate lose money on live racing.
Because you were asked which major market doesn't race year round and one of your answers was Arkansas.

Arkansas obviously isn't a major market.

Then again, you think handle doesn't matter, so this is pretty pointless.

[Al Gobbi]

Portion of Hollywood Park property for sale
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/portion-of-hollywood-park-property-for-sale/

[anotherCAfan]

Portion of Hollywood Park property for sale
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/portion-of-hollywood-park-property-for-sale/
Mr Paulick might have forgotten, or might not have known, that Walmart has owned that land for a while; they tried to put a store there but Inglewood said no.

The racetrack has not needed that land for parking for a long time; if anything, it was overflow parking for big concerts across the street at the Forum.

[Al Gobbi]

Exactly right :ThmbUp: ! The problem is the bozos running the industry don't get it. Those that went for this quick fix are beginning to pay the price. The Ontario Government has started the snowball rolling. The States will follow and they won't be as generous as the socialists in Canada by giving the tracks a hand-out for a few more years. Those tracks that didn't get slot revenue don't realize how lucky they are. They were forced to operate a business model that was not artificially inflated. It is from this group that the survivors will emerge.

also many track/casino operators in America would love to get rid of the racing.

[forced89]

Oaklawn is a profitable track with big races. It isn't a circuit, but who cares? The "circuits " you celebrate lose money on live racing.

One of the best meets in the country. Big races, big crowds, and increasing purses. Add to that a fabulous progression series for 3 yo's. Pioneered Instant Racing terminals. Now has slots. Slots are secondary to live racing. IMO right there with Saratoga and Keeneland.

[the little guy]

Anyone ever take a good look at the handle at Oaklawn? I'll give you a hint, it's no wonder its biggest defender here is under the ridiculous misconception that handle doesn't matter.

[Robert Goren]

Oaklawn is not major track although it maybe the most well run track in the country. It manages to get a lot of handle out of a small population base. Its handle put to shame tracks that have much larger population base yet have a much lower handle. One has to wonder what happen if its management got to run a track with major population base such as in NY or southern California or even southeast Florida.

[the little guy]

Oaklawn is not major track although it maybe the most well run track in the country. It manages to get a lot of handle out of a small population base. Its handle put to shame tracks that have much larger population base yet have a much lower handle. One has to wonder what happen if its management got to run a track with major population base such as in NY or southern California or even southeast Florida.


The above is a fabrication ( come on, even you blushed when you wrote that BS ) while the below numbers are the facts....

2012 All-Sources handle was down, on average, 10.2% daily

2012 On-Track handle was down, on average, 8% daily to $759K per day

2012 Attendance was down 9.2% to 10,579 daily which leads to a per person daily betting average of under $73.

All of this occurred with purses going up 12.5%.

Now, I'm not knocking Oaklawn, and have no reason to, but please spare us the lies.

[dilanesp]

Then again, you think handle doesn't matter, so this is pretty pointless.

It's not quite that I think handle doesn't matter. It's that handle generally goes up over time (due to inflation and the general proliferation of different types of bets) so therefore defenders of even completely inept racetrack management groups can point to it. It doesn't tell you anything about how well a racetrack is run and also isn't really much of an insight into the financial performance of a racetrack (because tracks only get a small portion of it, whereas they get the bulk of the money from admissions and revenue sources ancillary to live attendance (programs, concessions, etc.)).

Further, on a long-term basis, you need attendance because that's where the new fans are going to come from. A racing industry with empty racetracks and which is completely reliant on betting handle is an industry that isn't going to survive when its fans die off (or switch to other forms of gambling).

Handle is thus not completely irrelevant but just not really what you want to look at to determine whether tracks are being run properly or the industry is in good shape. It's perfectly clear if you do any sort of economic modeling that the effect of simulcasting was going to be a mass contraction of the industry. The attendance figures also indicate this. Handle conceals it.