NYRA limiting Saratoga 2yo sprint field sizes to 8

[tbwinner]

http://nyra.com/saratoga/stories/July032012b.shtml

8 for sprints, 10 for routes.

Safety and/or more 2yo races?

[tbwinner]

And by no means is this post an open invitation for bashing NYRA! Just sharing the news and curious if this has ever been implemented elsewhere??

[lamboguy]

in Belmont they always limited field size on 5 furlong dirt races to 8 for years now because the race starts to close to the turn.

i am not sure what they have had in saratoga.

new york racing seems to get it right most of the time.

[horses4courses]

Makes sense to me..... :ThmbUp:

lambo is right.....the turns are the big factor.
In the UK, you can have 20 runners - as long as they're on a straight course.

[David-LV]

This is a very good idea provided we don't get 2 and 3 scratches per race.

I hope they have at least 2 AE entered in each of these races.

_______
David-LV

[jorcus99]

I did not know that this was an issue. I remember when they used to let 12 go around the turf with the rails out. Those were some rough races. If your running a 6f sprint I don't see why you need to cut down to 8 starters. Lots of time to get position. They don't really run many 2 turn dirt races for 2 year olds. It kind of sucks from a betting perspective cutting down to 8 in sprints.

[horses4courses]

This is a very good idea provided we don't get 2 and 3 scratches per race.

I hope they have at least 2 AE entered in each of these races.

_______
David-LV

Good point....would be a shame to see 5 or 6 runner fields without AEs.

[Milkshaker]

Good point....would be a shame to see 5 or 6 runner fields without AEs.

Get used to it!

National horse shortage a-comin'!

2012 foal crop (24,000) expected to be lowest since 1971!

[forced89]

With the size of the purses and the number of Owners wanting to race their 2 yo's at Saratoga the result will be more 2 yo races and full 8 or 10 horse fields. The issue of scratches resulting in short fields might be a problem

[Striker]

I hope they have at least 2 AE entered in each of these races.

_______
David-LV
They will need those especially if the track comes up sloppy/muddy.

[cj]

People like this move and the far beyond silly reasons given for it? Seriously?

[Saratoga_Mike]

The change makes no sense. Is there a shortage of 2-yr-olds this yr and NYRA just doesn't want to reduce the number of 2-yr-old races run? I'm not sure what the 2010 foal crop looked like, but maybe that's the reason.

[cj]

Makes sense to me..... :ThmbUp:

lambo is right.....the turns are the big factor.
In the UK, you can have 20 runners - as long as they're on a straight course.

Then why allow more runners when adding a second turn? Lets not forget the run into the first turn of a route is usually more hotly contested as well since it is more important to establish position.

Honestly, this is one of the dumbest things I've seen recently in racing, and that is really saying something. I'm just glad it doesn't really affect many races.

[wisconsin]

I never thought I would see something so ridiculous from a major league circuit. Part of the joy of handicapping is the chaos that ensues from a full field of firsters. Why not 9 or 7 :rolleyes:

[Saratoga_Mike]

North American foal crops:

2006 38,089

2007 37,451

2008 35,136

2009 34,000

2010 30,000

The 2010 crop was 12% smaller than the prior yr. I wonder if this is the real reason for the change - fewer 2-yr-olds with no desire to reduce the number of two-yr-old races.

Read more here: http://www.kentucky.com/2011/08/16/1846367/2012-foal-crop-predicted-to-be.html#storylink=cpy

[Tom]

This could cut into the number of turf sprints of state bred maiden races.
Horrors!

[johnhannibalsmith]

This could cut into the number of turf sprints of state bred maiden races.
Horrors!

And possibly even increase the number of strong open juvenile winner's races if it leads to more maidens graduating when a few of these divide instead of overfilling.

[cj]

And possibly even increase the number of strong open juvenile winner's races if it leads to more maidens graduating when a few of these divide instead of overfilling.

Do you honestly think that will happen? I've never once heard anyone complain that there aren't enough 2yo maiden races.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Do you honestly think that will happen? I've never once heard anyone complain that there aren't enough 2yo maiden races.

Honestly, probably not. I'm not really tuned into the NY demographics in the barn areas and obviously they do run more 2yo maiden races at SAR than just about anywhere else. But hey, looking for a possible upside as I'm a little confused by the decision - and if it leads to more races in that category, it will lead to more winners and the (admittedly slight) potential for more of these 2yo winner's races to fill in perhaps several tiers of class.

[thespaah]

http://nyra.com/saratoga/stories/July032012b.shtml

8 for sprints, 10 for routes.

Safety and/or more 2yo races?
To be frank, it got a little scary seeing 2yo first time starters with gate schooling and workouts in 5f sprints of 14 runners.
This is probably a good idea.

[cj]

To be frank, it got a little scary seeing 2yo first time starters with gate schooling and workouts in 5f sprints of 14 runners.
This is probably a good idea.

When is the last time you saw a 5f race at Sar with 14 runners?

[thespaah]

With the size of the purses and the number of Owners wanting to race their 2 yo's at Saratoga the result will be more 2 yo races and full 8 or 10 horse fields. The issue of scratches resulting in short fields might be a problem
The intelligent thing to do is make it more difficult to scratch.
At times I wish the scratch rules were as stringent as those in Standardbred racing.
Examples.....Judges or vet( Scratched 'sick' or 'lame'). Other than that, you race.
In Thoroughbred racing, it seems as though a trainer can scratch if the horse farts too loudly.

[thespaah]

When is the last time you saw a 5f race at Sar with 14 runners?
Gotta check. I will look. Thanks for asking though.

[thespaah]

When is the last time you saw a 5f race at Sar with 14 runners?
I will rephrase.....Full fields....Aug 4th 2011. 2yo mdns....5f.main..field was 11. Four scratches. However the point is there were 11 entered.
Aug 5th, 2011. 4th race. 2yo Mdn fillies. 5.5 F turf.....13 entered no AE's. 10 went.
Aug 6th 2011. 6th race 5.5 F turf...13 went. Comment lines read 4 horses bumped. Two stumbled from gate.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just what racing needs. Smaller field sizes... :rolleyes:

[cj]

I will rephrase.....Full fields....Aug 4th 2011. 2yo mdns....5f.main..field was 11. Four scratches. However the point is there were 11 entered.
Aug 5th, 2011. 4th race. 2yo Mdn fillies. 5.5 F turf.....13 entered no AE's. 10 went.
Aug 6th 2011. 6th race 5.5 F turf...13 went. Comment lines read 4 horses bumped. Two stumbled from gate.


This is a phony move that can't possibly have been implemented for the reasons stated. It is moronic. The same exact things happens every day in races for winners with big fields.

[sammy the sage]

Wish I could post a poll w/in THIS thread...

Of the races that are booked at THIS condition...2 y.o. sprint...how many will or what % will ACTUALLY go off FULL w/8.

I'll say 65% or UNDER...in other words...fully 1/3rd won't EVEN race w/8...

Propaganda in my warped mind...

[NTamm1215]

Wish I could post a poll w/in THIS thread...

Of the races that are booked at THIS condition...2 y.o. sprint...how many will or what % will ACTUALLY go off FULL w/8.

I'll say 65% or UNDER...in other words...fully 1/3rd won't EVEN race w/8...

Propaganda in my warped mind...

You think 1/3rd of all Saratoga 2YO maiden races won't even have fields of 8? You're definitely going to be wrong about that.

[cj]

You think 1/3rd of all Saratoga 2YO maiden races won't even have fields of 8? You're definitely going to be wrong about that.

Does this count late scratches?

The good news is we will have three more horses Todd Pletcher won't run back...probably ever.

[tzipi]

I don't get this at all :confused:

This is to protect the horses so they can mature and take to racing better? A lot of races here probably averages 1 or 2 scratches by vet or trainer as it is, so this 8 horse rule could make for some short maiden fields on alot of days and rain will make it worse. Well lets see what happens.

[NTamm1215]

Does this count late scratches?

The good news is we will have three more horses Todd Pletcher won't run back...probably ever.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible idea. That being said, the vast majority of the races run will have a field of 8.

[cj]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible idea. That being said, the vast majority of the races run will have a field of 8.

I have no doubt they will.

[jorcus99]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible idea. That being said, the vast majority of the races run will have a field of 8.

And Pletcher will not have to run his horses against each other.

[camourous]

I like the thinking as it will make the races a little less demolition derby and be a little easier on the 2 year olds. But with doing this i think NYRA should impose a 30 day penalty on anyone who scratches out of the race for any reason other than a off track.. You could see too many 5 horse races which is awful.

[burnsy]

Do you honestly think that will happen? I've never once heard anyone complain that there aren't enough 2yo maiden races.
amen to that. i like to watch these races for the sport of it and interest towards future races....but betting wise its a crap shoot anyway. i don't care if theres 8, 10 or 4 of them! the WORST cards are when they put 3 or 4 of the maiden races together. this usually involves the 2 yo's, the maiden claimers and the older maidens...can't stand when they do that. time out for beer and lunch cause i know i ain't betting much........anyway.

[Saratoga_Mike]

When is the last time you saw a 5f race at Sar with 14 runners?

When's the last time there was an issue b/c of the 14 runners or 12 runners or 10 runners? This change is a solution seeking a problem.

[cj]

And Delmar has followed suit, limiting fields to 10. One thing is certain, when a dumb idea is put into action, someone else in racing will be dumb enough to copy it.

[Saratoga_Mike]

And Delmar has followed suit, limiting fields to 10. One thing is certain, when a dumb idea is put into action, someone else in racing will be dumb enough to copy it.

This has to be related to a dearth of 2-yr-olds, and the horsemen don't want fewer races written.

[andtheyreoff]

For what it's worth, over the first two weeks of the 2011 Saratoga season, 17 two year old races were run. 6 of them had a field better than the limit (2 10 horse fields and 4 11 horse fields). That means a good 1/3 of all two year old races at Saratoga will be affected by this.

I vote no.

[Grits]

For what it's worth, over the first two weeks of the 2011 Saratoga season, 17 two year old races were run. 6 of them had a field better than the limit (2 10 horse fields and 4 11 horse fields). That means a good 1/3 of all two year old races at Saratoga will be affected by this.

I vote no.

Bettors will tire of this quickly. Its safer for two year olds because they're goofy and green. However, bettors aren't fond of crap shoots unless they're pedigree mavens. Even then, pedigree can prove green and goofy stepping on the track.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Is there any evidence that 2-yr-olds were getting hurt in large fields?

[David-LV]

I think that this decision was made so that they can spread that slot machine money around a lot more, and give the the owners a chance to clean up at this meet, they need all the help they can get.

________
David-LV

[Valuist]

Off all tracks in North America, Belmont has the softest, most gradual turn in racing. This isn't a good idea.

As for horse shortages, there's never been a shortage of maidens to race. Even SoCal tracks which see many 5 and 6 horse fields can usually get at least 9 or 10 for a maiden claimer. In fact, the horse shortage case just strengthens the point that this is a bad idea.

[NTamm1215]

Off all tracks in North America, Belmont has the softest, most gradual turn in racing. This isn't a good idea.

As for horse shortages, there's never been a shortage of maidens to race. Even SoCal tracks which see many 5 and 6 horse fields can usually get at least 9 or 10 for a maiden claimer. In fact, the horse shortage case just strengthens the point that this is a bad idea.

You're right, but the issue at hand is Saratoga.

[Valuist]

You're right, but the issue at hand is Saratoga.

It doesn't matter WHAT track. Its a terrible idea for any track. We aren't talking about 20 horses in the country's most famous race.

Have to think the horsemen are behind this. Nobody has worse ideas than owners and trainers.

[MaTH716]

Maybe they need the extra races to fill the highly anticipated pick 5......................:rolleyes:

[FantasticDan]

Just went to nyra.com to watch the talking horses picks, and... nothing. It's supposed to run from 12-12:30, right? It's 12:13, so where is it?

EDIT: Somebody flipped the switch in time for race 5 analysis.. excellent.. :ThmbUp: :rolleyes:

[MaTH716]

Just went to nyra.com to watch the talking horses picks, and... nothing. It's supposed to run from 12-12:30, right? It's 12:13, so where is it?
I see it.

[OTM Al]

I don't understand the reason to do this either, but I am hoping it may have down line results that are positive. As has been mentioned before, this may make at least more NW1X races possible and further, remember they are giving a bonus to graded stakes winners at NYRA tracks for those that broke thier maidens at Saratoga, so maybe this will beef up those races as well. I will also assume there will be solid AE lists for these races too so the field at least regularly maxes out.

I also recall that my best 2yo maiden race score was in a field of 6 and should have had a $600 (x5) exacta hit last year in another small field (I think 6 or 7 as well) at Saratoga if I wouldn't have cheaped out on the bet, so I'm not so worried about value as some. Of course last year I remember people complaining about the very existence of the 2yo races at Saratoga, so at least for the horizontal players this should simplify things a bit. It is what it is though so in such cases I at least try to find something positive.

[KingChas]

I also recall that my best 2yo maiden race score was in a field of 6 and should have had a $600 (x5) exacta hit last year in another small field (I think 6 or 7 as well) at Saratoga if I wouldn't have cheaped out on the bet, so I'm not so worried about value as some. Of course last year I remember people complaining about the very existence of the 2yo races at Saratoga, so at least for the horizontal players this should simplify things a bit. It is what it is though so in such cases I at least try to find something positive.

Agree with the horizontal aspect.
My question is the field limited to 8 horses in the starting gate ?

Or 8 betting interests?

:1: :1a: :2: :2b: :3: :3x: :4: :5: :6: :7: :8:

If 1st question does apply possibly 5+6 betting horse field's when entries involved.

[johnhannibalsmith]

Agree with the horizontal aspect.
My question is the field limited to 8 horses in the starting gate ?

Or 8 betting interests?

:1: :1a: :2: :2b: :3: :3x: :4: :5: :6: :7: :8:

If 1st question does apply possibly 5+6 betting horse field's when entries involved.

Not to answer for Al, but I'm all but certain the implication is number of starters.

As for the second part, I'm guessing that the second choice in what would be a coupled entry would be, if not least preferred, then second least preferred behind an entry without papers on file. So, I doubt that single betting interests would be getting excluded from overfilled races over doubles. Just a marginally educated guess, I may be wrong.

[KingChas]

John, what threw me is the comment that larger fields create rougher run races.

Which is why I question is it 8 horses max in the gate for sprints and 10 horses max in the gate for routes.

If not entries could spread this out to 12 horse fields ...which sounds like it defeats the NYRA's purpose of this reasoning.....that is my question. :confused:

[johnhannibalsmith]

John, what threw me is the comment that larger fields create rougher run races.

Which is why I question is it 8 horses max in the gate for sprints and 10 horses max in the gate for routes.

If not entries could spread this out to 12 horse fields ...which sounds like it defeats the NYRA's purpose of this reasoning.....that is my question. :confused:

I feel confident answering that by "starters", they mean "number of horses in the gate". So, your second sentence is exactly correct - 8 horses in the gate sprinting max, 10 in routes max. Hope that clarifies better.

[bucksboy]

Does this apply to Stakes races ? I can't see them having 12 - 14 good ones
entered for a stake sprint and only using 8...

[Saratoga_Mike]

I don't understand the reason to do this either, but I am hoping it may have down line results that are positive. As has been mentioned before, this may make at least more NW1X races possible and further, remember they are giving a bonus to graded stakes winners at NYRA tracks for those that broke thier maidens at Saratoga, so maybe this will beef up those races as well. I will also assume there will be solid AE lists for these races too so the field at least regularly maxes out.



I guess this presupposes they will run more 2-yr-old MSWs races? The current 2-yr-old crop is 12% smaller than last yr's crop, so I don't see why they'd run more NW1X races unless they run smaller fields.

[OTM Al]

I guess this presupposes they will run more 2-yr-old MSWs races? The current 2-yr-old crop is 12% smaller than last yr's crop, so I don't see why they'd run more NW1X races unless they run smaller fields.

I would expect they might still have more given the incentives program they put in. I do remember reading that trainers were intending on bringing more 2yos than previously because of it. Can't say for sure though so will just have to see how it shakes out.

[PhantomOnTour]

Nothing to do with 2yr olds, but Bel is running 6 straight Maiden races today (one MdnClm and five MSW)

whoa

[Saratoga_Mike]

I would expect they might still have more given the incentives program they put in. I do remember reading that trainers were intending on bringing more 2yos than previously because of it. Can't say for sure though so will just have to see how it shakes out.

I hope you're right - I love to see Saratoga do well.

[Valuist]

The more one thinks of this new rule, the sillier it is. If anything, BIG fields help young horse's development. What's more impressive, a 2 year old wiring a small field, or one who had to take dirt it the face, go around a horse or two and split horses in the stretch? Many trainers look at a 2 year olds first few races as an education. Horses need to learn to take dirt, and be willing to move between horses.

[cj]

Since I'm knocking this new rule, to be fair, I'll say the rule to award Belmont maiden winners with a bonus for winning a stake at Saratoga has worked out very well.

[FantasticDan]

Again.. Talking Horses supposed to come on at 11:45, now 11:55, and nothing..


Just went to nyra.com to watch the talking horses picks, and... nothing. It's supposed to run from 12-12:30, right? It's 12:13, so where is it?

EDIT: Somebody flipped the switch in time for race 5 analysis.. excellent.. :ThmbUp: :rolleyes:

[FantasticDan]

Came on at 11:59, end of race 3 analysis.

This happens too often.

[jeebus1083]

For Thursday we get 5 maiden races. Two of the maiden races are for 2YOs that didn't even fill out to 8 runners for "safety's sake".

Saturday, a stakes day, it's 4 $20k claimers, 5 maiden slobberknockers (3 of which are for 2YOs).

[Itamaraca]

absolutely PITIFUL turf racing so far. never saw so many turf races where a large part of the field hadn't turfed before. where are all the turf sprints? where are all the good turf horses? honestly, the turf racing this year @ GP, KEE CD and WO, and even BEL, blows away SAR's product (so far).

[cj]

For Thursday we get 5 maiden races. Two of the maiden races are for 2YOs that didn't even fill out to 8 runners for "safety's sake".

Saturday, a stakes day, it's 4 $20k claimers, 5 maiden slobberknockers (3 of which are for 2YOs).

Of the 125 horses entered Saturday, only 36 have actually won more than a maiden race.

[sammy the sage]

You think 1/3rd of all Saratoga 2YO maiden races won't even have fields of 8? You're definitely going to be wrong about that.

I won't HOLD my breath for THE apology :p

[FantasticDan]

Tuned in to watch "Saratoga in 30" on MSG+ tonight, and it's races from 1984 or something.. what gives? This is what they might run if the card was cancelled, but it wasn't..

[forced89]

I own a piece of a "firster" 2 yo in at Remington tomorrow night. Field of 12. If my horse doesn't win, should I blame it on too big a field?

[cj]

I own a piece of a "firster" 2 yo in at Remington tomorrow night. Field of 12. If my horse doesn't win, should I blame it on too big a field?

I was thinking about going for opening night. What is the horse's name, if I may ask? If not it is cool.

[lamboguy]

I own a piece of a "firster" 2 yo in at Remington tomorrow night. Field of 12. If my horse doesn't win, should I blame it on too big a field?
good luck with your horse

[Tom]

Tuned in to watch "Saratoga in 30" on MSG+ tonight, and it's races from 1984 or something.. what gives? This is what they might run if the card was cancelled, but it wasn't..

I assumed they cancelled, but no?
Strange.