Watchmaker on board member's fanbase idea

[Grits]

http://www.drf.com/blogs/racings-older-fanbase

DRF's Mike Watchmaker shares thoughts on racing's fanbase and remarks made by oversight board member. ......Tell this fella to keep working on the 20 and 30 somethings in the ATM lines Belmont Day, as I'd noted, the longest lines in the building. Most without a DRF or a program in their hand. Only a three quarters empty cup of beer. :rolleyes:

I saw a report yesterday (Tuesday) on bloodhorse.com on the NYRA presenting its new marketing director to the Franchise Oversight Board, the New York state entity that, as its title suggests, oversees the NYRA. What struck me about this report was not who the new appointee was (for the record, he is Rodnell Workman, a former executive for Madison Square Garden and the New York Giants). What caught my eye was a quote in the middle of the piece from Richard Aurelio, an oversight board member, speaking about what he perceives to be the difficulty marketing Thoroughbred racing.

While it is true that Thoroughbred racing is in a far different position than it was in 40-odd years ago, primarily because folks have other options for disposable income earmarked for gambling, I believe one thing remains true: For most people, Thoroughbred racing is an acquired taste. In most cases, you have to be at a certain station in life to have the maturity to appreciate and accept the intellectual challenge of handicapping. Plus, you have to have the disposable income, and, almost as critically, the time to do something about it. Because of that, the audience the game should be targeting at least as vigorously as the young crowd is that group of 40- to 50-somethings.

[garyscpa]

http://www.drf.com/blogs/racings-older-fanbase

DRF's Mike Watchmaker shares thoughts on racing's fanbase and remarks made by oversight board member. ......Tell this fella to keep working on the 20 and 30 somethings in the ATM lines Belmont Day, as I'd noted, the longest lines in the building. Most without a DRF or a program in their hand. Only a three quarters empty cup of beer. :rolleyes:

You don't think they should target their marketing to where they think it will be most effective?

[Bullet Plane]

I think Watchmaker is on the right track. Serve the clientele that is currently at the track. Zero tolerance for drunks and loud rock and roll music. Play Ole' Blue Eyes, a little Satchmo, etc. and the people you have will remain.

Do the other dumb stuff, and the people will continue to leave in droves. Horse racing is too complex for the 20's to 30's crowd. Let them play the slots like idiots, until they grow up to be adults and play the horses at around 50-60 years of age.

That is generally the age where brain power overcomes hormones.

If some kid in PR has an idea to attract people to the track. Make damn sure that person is 24-7 around the clock...no other hobbies, no other life, zero spouse, zero children, zero fancy clothes, addicted to the horses like me...and then they might have a vague clue as to how and why people go to the track.

Make sure the kid has read "Ainslie's Complete Guide to Thoroughbred Racing." Put the kid through Quinn and Quirin, Davidowitz, Dick Mitchell, Cramer, Barry Meadows, etc. ...And of course Andy Beyer....Quiz them til they cry...

Also, make sure the kid has the complete set of Charles Bukowski books..all thirty or so, and has them worn them ragged.

Then, maybe, just maybe, that person might have a vague idea of what kind of people go to the track. There is never anyone new there, and there never has been, and there never will be.

[andicap]

Aurelio is right. Any good business that is struggling has to shore up its base before expanding. J.C. Penney is getting a good lesson in that right now with its disastrous new campaign that has alienated the venerable chain's base of mainstream Americans.
Lose your most loyal customers and you're up the creek. I'm not against racing trying to lure younger fans == just not at the cost of losing their best customers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/onmarketing/2012/06/24/jc-penneys-misfire-what-went-wrong/

[BlueShoe]

Also, make sure the kid has the complete set of Charles Bukowski books..all thirty or so, and has them worn them ragged.
Just a sidenote, but perhaps not well known was that Bukowski was a dedicated horseplayer and a regular at the SoCal tracks. Saw him numerous times back in the days before widespread simulcasting.

[MickJ26]

It's an instant gratification world. Handicapping, and handicapping well, is an art that must be perfected over time. Most of the video game generation doesn't have the attention span or the patience to invest the effort it takes to find the enjoyment of handicapping and/or admiring these majestic, beautiful animals. Just my two cents worth.

[lamboguy]

there are 2 key interchangeable components in racing, the horse owner and the bettor.

the assets that the game has is the love of the animal, and every fan can participate in the game in many different ways, unlike any other spectator sport. there are plenty of reasons why horse racing was the number 1 spectator sport for years.

to get back to the glory days only will take a plan that will get the sport back on solid footing. i don't think that ten cent triple superfecta's, rainbow pick 6's or any other change in betting has anything to do with the health of the game, and a way to attract people to participate in it.

[Robert Goren]

Aurelio is right. Any good business that is struggling has to shore up its base before expanding. J.C. Penney is getting a good lesson in that right now with its disastrous new campaign that has alienated the venerable chain's base of mainstream Americans.
Lose your most loyal customers and you're up the creek. I'm not against racing trying to lure younger fans == just not at the cost of losing their best customers.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/onmarketing/2012/06/24/jc-penneys-misfire-what-went-wrong/ Racing is already losing its most loyal customers at an alarming rate. They are either dying off or moving to nursing homes. It is at the current time not replacing them in sufficient numbers to survive. If you visit any simulcast center, you will quick see the problem. Almost everybody there is at least in there 60s. Many are well into their 70s. 10 years from now a third to half of those bettors won't be there. In 20 years almost all of them will be gone. I don't have all the answers and maybe I don't have any of them, but this much I do know, they can't continue to treat their customers as degenerate gamblers. The young gamblers now days have too many options as to where to take their action to put up with that. I also believe that a new horse player does not become a regular horse player in one trip to the track. He must be nurtured over time.
You are right about JCPenneys. I was there last week to get a new pair of sweat pants. There was only one other customer in the mens dept.

[thaskalos]

There is no doubt in my mind that horse racing not only can survive...it can THRIVE...without ever trying to attract the younger gamblers. All our racing leaders have to do is show us "older generation" that they are interested in running this sport as if it were a "gambling game"...which, of course, is exactly what it is.

The 40+ population is more than capable of carrying this game, just as they have done for over a century now...but even the game's biggest supporters have gotten disenchanted with the way the game is currently run.

The high takeout is one thing, but when you combine it with today's 6-horse fields and trainer integrity issues...then things get pretty hopeless in a hurry for the player.

I have been playing the game for 30 years...and have never seen such a horrible product on display from Monday to Friday.

Do our racing leaders really think that the 6-horse field is appetizing to the player, from a wagering standpoint?

They must...otherwise, something would have been done to rectify this situation.

It is sad to see...because this game is the best gambling game in existence when it's run right.

But it's the worst gambling game in the world...when it's not.

[Robert Goren]

There is no doubt in my mind that horse racing not only can survive...it can THRIVE...without ever trying to attract the younger gamblers. All our racing leaders have to do is show us "older generation" that they are interested in running this sport as if it were a "gambling game"...which, of course, is exactly what it is.

The 40+ population is more than capable of carrying this game, just as they have done for over a century now...but even the game's biggest supporters have gotten disenchanted with the way the game is currently run.

The high takeout is one thing, but when you combine it with today's 6-horse fields and trainer integrity issues...then things get pretty hopeless in a hurry for the player.

I have been playing the game for 30 years...and have never seen such a horrible product on display from Monday to Friday.

Do our racing leaders really think that the 6-horse field is appetizing to the player, from a wagering standpoint?

They must...otherwise, something would have been done to rectify this situation.

It is sad to see...because this game is the best gambling game in existence when it's run right.

But it's the worst gambling game in the world...when it's not.The 40+ population is always gaining and lose members. I post here several years that horse racing should go after the newly retired and got skewed pretty good.
When simulcasting first came in about 20 years ago, when I went out to the local simulcasting center at the track, I was one of youngest people there. The last time I was there just before Lincoln's live meet started in May, I was still one of the youngest people there. I am 64. That has to be a problem for them long term. I understand the need to draw young people to live racing because that is where you plant the seeds. Simulcasting is where you find most of the hard core horse players. It is pretty clear the number as dwindling there because of benign neglected. I know some people have abandoned the simulcast centers for online betting. I am one of them. But ADWs are not attracting new players to the game in any real numbers, merely changing the wagering venues of existing ones.
I agree about the product on weekdays, but it ain't all that great on weekends either in my opinion. You right there are far too many short fields and even in larger fields there are far too many horses taking very little money with no chance. 2 extra horses at 50/1+ with no chance does not make a race playable in my book. What used to be staple of the game, full fields of evenly matched (on paper at least) of bottom or near bottom dirt claimers has all but disappeared from the game.

[burnsy]

i never understood the fascination with ATM's...they charge you to "visit" your own money. i've been going to the track for almost 40 years. i guess the common sense of bringing money in your pocket or putting money in your NYRA account got lost somewhere....i've never used an ATM once in my life at the track. what really cracks me up is the line at saratoga (at the ATM). alot of the behavior i see at the track gives me confidence in my common sense way of handicapping. because so many have zero. you are going to a race track to gamble you might want to have some cash BEFORE you get there...i wish i could book bets (just give me one window) or own a track its easy to see how 90% of the people lose all the time doing this (betting horse racing). what, you didn't hit the early double and you are broke by the second race? hilarious. are you kidding me? these are the kind of people i want there every day and one of the reasons i love gambling at saratoga. because there will be at LEAST one favorite a day that has no shot with money like this in the pool and those are the races i look for. give them more beer and money.......it makes my season.

[Aerocraft67]

The article makes a very keen insight that the logical audience for racing skews older, due to favorable disposition and discretionary time associated with that age group, which makes obsession about attracting young fans because old ones are dying off misplaced. I'm very fond of horseplay, but just don't have the time to pursue it much with work and family commitments. And while I agree with Watchmaker, I'm still amazed that the track is a reliable place where I'm a young guy...pushing my mid 40s. I guess that makes me the real core demographic for new fans. At least after my kids get a little older.

That said, there is more than one dimension to the game to enjoy, and those other dimensions can appeal to others beyond the core clientele, even though handicapping and wagering is central. Combining those dimensions can help promote the game favorably. The point is well taken about the dubious value of turning a horse race into a frat party, but if the track has some family-friendly events or parts of the venue, that helps me get my family and friends in on what's otherwise a very solitary pursuit. Creative promotions could also motivate people like me to bring a group of peers to the track for the day that otherwise wouldn't go, and that experience could rub off to spark interest with them or someone they know. Problem is, many of these promotions aren't particularly creative, and wind up making the track even less appealing.

On the other hand, while the sight of a bunch of old geezers and sketchy characters at a debilitated track is off-putting to many, to others, the scene is central to its gritty, Bukowskiesque appeal. So maybe it's best regarded as an acquired taste and niche pursuit for a few, which brings us to the structural problems that give us an oversupply of races for an undersupply of consumers. Aligning supply and demand better is a constant refrain here, although "consumers" also include hobbyist horsemen that want to race regardless of value for punters, which complicates that issue for sure. It's good to have an array of accessible "minor leagues" for people, but too many just dilutes the product beyond value, and is more likely to discourage people than encourage them.

Point is, there are reasonable steps racing can take to broaden appeal and welcome participants, but to just step up marketing to try to drum up more bodies at the track for the oversupply of races is just putting lipstick on a pig.

As a side note, there is one notable subset of young "fans," and those are the beautiful mind types that are using formal modeling to try to beat the game. These guys don't peak in their 60s. Although they may "retire" to horseplay at a more seasoned age after tackling hedge funds and whatnot first.

[Tom]

Steve Byk's opinion of Aurelio is more along the lines of he's a jackass.
Hour #2 of Wednesday's show, with Seth Marrow.....

[Oaklawn John]

That is generally the age where brain power overcomes hormones.




Having recently turned 50 and becoming more and more interested in the racing game, this comment sums it up for me!

[Horseplayersbet.com]

I think things are different now. In the 60's and 70's and even early 80's, the grandstand was full of regulars, and many kids were brought along on weekends.
This trend stopped in the 90's, and nowadays most tracks do not have live attendance numbers anywhere equal to the good old days. And children are almost non existent.

It may be true that those who turn 40 and 50 may spend more time handicapping races, but these are generally people who always had an interest in horse racing to begin with. I believe we are dealing with less new 40 year olds each and every day who ever had an interest in horse racing betting.

Like Thaskalos, I do agree that horse racing can thrive, but it really needs to focus on being a gambling game, and that means it has to attempt to compete with other forms of intellectual gambling that offer a much bigger bang for the buck.

[BlueShoe]

Racing is already losing its most loyal customers at an alarming rate. They are either dying off or moving to nursing homes. It is at the current time not replacing them in sufficient numbers to survive. If you visit any simulcast center, you will quick see the problem. Almost everybody there is at least in there 60s. Many are well into their 70s. 10 years from now a third to half of those bettors won't be there. In 20 years almost all of them will be gone.
If another trend continues and certain predictions come true, racing will lose them even sooner and faster. On earlier threads the recent sharp price increases and the possibility of ceasing the printed hard copy of the Daily Racing Form has been discussed. Have stated this several times and will say it again; the older hard core players that are racing's loyal customer base are not going to start printing online pp's if the DRF hard copy goes away. Most of these old guys do not even have a computer and do not use one, and they are not going to suddenly start now. At the SoCal racetracks and otb sites I attend have seen very, very few patrons with pp's that they printed out at home and brought with them. There has already been a lot of griping about the price of a DRF, but take it away completely, which a few believe is what the Form actually wishes to do, and these old guys that are the loyal base will quit and stay home, and they will not be opening ADWs and wagering from home, they just will be out of the game.

[thaskalos]

If another trend continues and certain predictions come true, racing will lose them even sooner and faster. On earlier threads the recent sharp price increases and the possibility of ceasing the printed hard copy of the Daily Racing Form has been discussed. Have stated this several times and will say it again; the older hard core players that are racing's loyal customer base are not going to start printing online pp's if the DRF hard copy goes away. Most of these old guys do not even have a computer and do not use one, and they are not going to suddenly start now. At the SoCal racetracks and otb sites I attend have seen very, very few patrons with pp's that they printed out at home and brought with them. There has already been a lot of griping about the price of a DRF, but take it away completely, which a few believe is what the Form actually wishes to do, and these old guys that are the loyal base will quit and stay home, and they will not be opening ADWs and wagering from home, they just will be out of the game.

I agree with you 100%.

The DRF doesn't seem to realize that there is still a significant stigma attached to betting on horses...and that a certain segment of the population cannot afford to spend much time handicapping in front of the computer...because their spouses are not very receptive of the idea of gambling.

IMO...the current demise of the printed product of the DRF plays a major role in the serious player's disenchantment with the game...and I am not talking about the price increases.

In the Chicago area, some of the tracks that are offered for wagering are not even covered by the available DRFs -- while other tracks are limited to only 6 past-performance lines per horse -- so the non-online player has to use the sketchy racing programs sold at the OTBs...which are even worse.

Many of those players who refuse to bet from home are not doing so because they want to. They are doing so in order to keep peace in the family...

[Aerocraft67]

Some good points about the lag between on/off track bettors adapting online resources and DRF migrating online while making the print product more dear, but the prohibitive economics of supporting a print publication make that migration inevitable. That's not to say there isn't a viable business model for robust printed past performances at the track, but pinning the vitality of the game on DRF maintaining a fat newspaper at every track is unrealistic.

[therussmeister]

At Canterbury, any track not included I'm the two editions of the form can be printed at a self-service kiosk for $1.00/track. At this cost, I look forward to the day when hard copies of the form are discontinued so I can buy whatever tracks I want at $1.00 each.

[Saratoga_Mike]

[QUOTE=thaskalos]
IMO...the current demise of the printed product of the DRF plays a major role in the serious player's disenchantment with the game...and I am not talking about the price increases.

QUOTE]

I assume you'd view $3.50 as a fair price for the Form? IF so, do you think an incremental $4 really matters? I don't believe it for a second.

Reasons for the demise in US racing (in order of importance):
1) Proliferation of alternative gaming
2) Take is too high b/c #1 provide alternatives
3) The Dumbing Down of America (yes, I'm serious)
4) Product hasn't been properly marketed for yrs
5) Perception of racing as being fixed or horses drugged (much more truth to the latter)
...........
57) Demise of the printed DRF

[tzipi]

Do the other dumb stuff, and the people will continue to leave in droves. Horse racing is too complex for the 20's to 30's crowd. Let them play the slots like idiots, until they grow up to be adults and play the horses at around 50-60 years of age.

:rolleyes: Unbelievable. "Idiot" young people are not the ones filling up the slot machines. That's pretty clear. Older people are playing the slots. Making fun of smart, successful younger people does not get them to play your game.

No, racing is not too complex for young people. That's ridiculous. These young people and kids todays can hack computers, write intelligent computer programs and whatever else but can't understand a form? No.

Pretty sure most young people are smart and are doing ok in the world. Maybe they want to play other sports and games with better advantages/lower takeout. Games where they don't see drugs infractions everyday in the media on horses you have to bet. Not really idiots huh. Should they just do what you or I want to do Bullet? Should they give into high takeout racing so you can call them smart? Choosing other games with lower take out, I'd say they are not too dumb.

My friends like to bet recent high powered Green Bay at home against the spread the last two seasons. See how many times they won that bet. We couldn't have made that money at the track unless I hit a big carryover pick six's. And I probably will never do that :D
I enjoy the track very much and go alot Bullet but making fun of younger people calling them "idiots" for not playing your game or getting a huge chunk taken from your bets, doesn't make them dumb. What happened to greyhound racing or Harness. HUGE following back in the day. Were you or whoever dumb for not playing their game? There's always reasons things decline. And there's more better ways to get people to the track.

[thaskalos]

[QUOTE=thaskalos]
IMO...the current demise of the printed product of the DRF plays a major role in the serious player's disenchantment with the game...and I am not talking about the price increases.

QUOTE]

I assume you'd view $3.50 as a fair price for the Form? IF so, do you think an incremental $4 really matters? I don't believe it for a second.

Reasons for the demise in US racing (in order of importance):
1) Proliferation of alternative gaming
2) Take is too high b/c #1 provide alternatives
3) The Dumbing Down of America (yes, I'm serious)
4) Product hasn't been properly marketed for yrs
5) Perception of racing as being fixed or horses drugged (much more truth to the latter)
...........
57) Demise of the printed DRF

I respect your opinion...but happen to disagree with you in this case.

Notice that I was talking about the "serious" player in the post that you quoted.

You will never convince me that the serious horseplayer is leaving the game for the mindless games offered at the casinos.

He is leaving the game because of his disgust over the current product. And the lack of adequate printed PPs sure doesn't help...

[Tom]

Do serious players even use the printed DRF?

[thaskalos]

Do serious players even use the printed DRF?
Don't bet on that...because you'll lose.

[Tom]

I just find it kind funny that anyone would find much info in it.
Formulator, yes, but the printed version?
Slim pickings.

[Charli125]

I think Watchmaker is on the right track. Serve the clientele that is currently at the track. Zero tolerance for drunks and loud rock and roll music. Play Ole' Blue Eyes, a little Satchmo, etc. and the people you have will remain.

Do the other dumb stuff, and the people will continue to leave in droves. Horse racing is too complex for the 20's to 30's crowd. Let them play the slots like idiots, until they grow up to be adults and play the horses at around 50-60 years of age.

That is generally the age where brain power overcomes hormones.
Maybe you're being facetious and if so, I apologize. I find this to be so over the top that I hope, yet doubt, that it's a joke.

If you're being serious though...What a ridiculous, pompous, small-minded generalization.

Maybe you don't understand that if you continue to serve ONLY the clientele that are currently at the track, then the majority of your clientele will be dead in the next 20-30 years.

Maybe the folks in their 20's and 30's have access to other gambling options where the rake is less than 22%. Maybe, just maybe, they're smart enough to know that their time is better spent focusing on something where more than 2% of the participants are profitable. Maybe they are more interested in making money than spending a day at the track surrounded by old fuddy-duddies like yourself.

Just because you don't like those damn kids with their rock n' roll devil music doesn't mean they're not the future customers of racing.

Anything other than a joint approach to support current customers and to create future customers is a failed marketing strategy.

[jelly]

The Industry Is not looking for people to gamble on their sport.


The Industry Is looking to entertain people. :lol:


They are looking to entertain people with a $8 racing form,with 22% takeout and 5 horse fields.


A good gamble Is entertaining, a bad gamble Is not!


Good luck.

[jorcus99]

I think most of us who are serious handicappers feel that being a student of the game is the only way any other human can enjoy horseracing. We almost exclude the other audience by perpetuating the feeling that they are at huge disadvantage by not throwing themselves into a college level pursuit of handicapping horse races. What some of the marketing studies are trying to show is that there is this other world of gamblers that can be drawn into racing if you don't scare them off before they get in the door.

We as handicappers take for granted what we have access to now. Speed figures, Pace numbers, video replays, The time of every horse that worked out that day. The list goes on. Before the 1980's almost none of this was available. The average fan who went to the track was the same as the people that go to the casinos today. They did not care to become experts. They just went for the action and the chance to win some money.

I had to do some work at a small inner city casino last year. I had to meet my contact at 8:00am and this little tin can of a casino was crawling with people. I doubt one person in there was aware that the takout on the slots were 8 or 9 %. A brutal rate when you consider the plays/hour. They don't care as long as they think they can win. I was talking to someone once about my interest in horse racing and they told me they were good at slots. I did not know someone could be good at slots but as long as they believe they are what does it matter.

The casino people do not care about takeout, drugs, or the quality of the horses they would be watching. They less the know the better. Give them a quick pick exacta a free hot dog and just tell them how good they are at playing horses.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Plays per hour can be enormous for Horseplayers. I would say that many Horseplayers surpass what many slot players play in one hour, and that could include different wagers as well as amount wagered, though I think a fair comparison is simply handle per hour.

Slot players aren't cognizant of takeout, and either are most Horseplayers, but it is all about bang for the buck, and a psychological feeling that you are close to winning. I think that is something slot operators have a good idea about and they milk it.

[PaceAdvantage]

The Industry Is not looking for people to gamble on their sport.


The Industry Is looking to entertain people. :lol:


They are looking to entertain people with a $8 racing form,with 22% takeout and 5 horse fields.


A good gamble Is entertaining, a bad gamble Is not!


Good luck.What happened to you on that NYRA giveaway thread you started? I'm still waiting on your praise for NYRA's RaceQuest...or do you only point out the negatives that you perceive?

[Grits]

Very nice post.

The article makes a very keen insight that the logical audience for racing skews older, due to favorable disposition and discretionary time associated with that age group, which makes obsession about attracting young fans because old ones are dying off misplaced. I'm very fond of horseplay, but just don't have the time to pursue it much with work and family commitments. And while I agree with Watchmaker, I'm still amazed that the track is a reliable place where I'm a young guy...pushing my mid 40s. I guess that makes me the real core demographic for new fans. At least after my kids get a little older.

That said, there is more than one dimension to the game to enjoy, and those other dimensions can appeal to others beyond the core clientele, even though handicapping and wagering is central. Combining those dimensions can help promote the game favorably. The point is well taken about the dubious value of turning a horse race into a frat party, but if the track has some family-friendly events or parts of the venue, that helps me get my family and friends in on what's otherwise a very solitary pursuit. Creative promotions could also motivate people like me to bring a group of peers to the track for the day that otherwise wouldn't go, and that experience could rub off to spark interest with them or someone they know. Problem is, many of these promotions aren't particularly creative, and wind up making the track even less appealing.

On the other hand, while the sight of a bunch of old geezers and sketchy characters at a debilitated track is off-putting to many, to others, the scene is central to its gritty, Bukowskiesque appeal. So maybe it's best regarded as an acquired taste and niche pursuit for a few, which brings us to the structural problems that give us an oversupply of races for an undersupply of consumers. Aligning supply and demand better is a constant refrain here, although "consumers" also include hobbyist horsemen that want to race regardless of value for punters, which complicates that issue for sure. It's good to have an array of accessible "minor leagues" for people, but too many just dilutes the product beyond value, and is more likely to discourage people than encourage them.

Point is, there are reasonable steps racing can take to broaden appeal and welcome participants, but to just step up marketing to try to drum up more bodies at the track for the oversupply of races is just putting lipstick on a pig.

As a side note, there is one notable subset of young "fans," and those are the beautiful mind types that are using formal modeling to try to beat the game. These guys don't peak in their 60s. Although they may "retire" to horseplay at a more seasoned age after tackling hedge funds and whatnot first.

[castaway01]

A couple years ago I wrote a long post here stating almost exactly the same thing. I got a mix of praise for thinking "outside the box" and "but you have to market to 20-somethings like everyone else" arguments. People from 50 and up have the most disposable income, they have more free time (possibly retired, kids out of the house), and they don't view horse racing as foreign as the younger generation does (because they remember when it was a much bigger sport). As far as needing young people, please take a walk around a casino on a weekday (when most tracks run as well, by the way). You know, those low-takeout casinos that racing should copy? It's all people 60 and up with a smattering of young people, mostly playing the slots and video poker. Why? Because the young people are working.

As to the argument that the fans are dying off, as Watchmaker said, it was the same thing people said 50 years ago. In the past few years when handle dropped, they didn't die off---they're just parked in front of a slot machine instead. The next group that would have taken their place at the track is waiting in line behind them to get to the slot machine. It's still a group that horse racing should market to and try to bring back.

[Charli125]

People from 50 and up have the most disposable income, they have more free time (possibly retired, kids out of the house), and they don't view horse racing as foreign as the younger generation does (because they remember when it was a much bigger sport).

I completely agree and that's why the current customer base needs to be catered to.

But, who do you think was playing all those sit n go's on all those poker sites at 3 in the morning? There is a whole generation of 20-somethings out there that has disposable income, likes a game where skill is involved, and no longer has the option of online poker. I just don't see why we're not courting those players.

Concerts, $1 beers, etc. are not the way to reach those players. That's just courting what looks like the right demographic.

[thaskalos]

I completely agree and that's why the current customer base needs to be catered to.

But, who do you think was playing all those sit n go's on all those poker sites at 3 in the morning? There is a whole generation of 20-somethings out there that has disposable income, likes a game where skill is involved, and no longer has the option of online poker. I just don't see why we're not courting those players.

Concerts, $1 beers, etc. are not the way to reach those players. That's just courting what looks like the right demographic.

You are right...the young poker players have proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that young gamblers have both the interest and the time to get involved in a gambling game of skill.

And they are willing to go to great lengths to learn a complicated game...as evidenced by the fact that most of them have devoured some very complicated books about limit and no-limit hold'em, without blinking an eye.

But serious poker-playing has provided them with a keen eye for value...and they cannot be persuaded that they can find this value in horse racing.

I don't blame them...

[Tom]

With poker, you more likely than not get more cards per hand than horses per race.

[thaskalos]

With poker, you more likely than not get more cards per hand than horses per race.
You are not too far from the truth...

The way the field sizes are going...the horseplayers will soon convert to poker, instead of the poker players becoming horseplayers.

[Tom]

Given the choice, I would take poker every time.
But only in person, at a table, within arm's reach of everyone else playing. ;)

[thaskalos]

Given the choice, I would take poker every time.
But only in person, at a table, within arm's reach of everyone else playing. ;)

Which gives me an idea...

How about we plan a Paceadvantage group get-together at a Las Vegas casino? :)

[tzipi]

Which gives me an idea...

How about we plan a Paceadvantage group get-together at a Las Vegas casino? :)

I'm down ;)

[BlueShoe]

With poker, you more likely than not get more cards per hand than horses per race.
Seven cards each and every hand at Hold Em. At a few tracks these days seven runners would be considered a full field. :rolleyes: