View Full Version : $4K claimer freaks at Finger Lakes
FantasticDan
06-20-2012, 02:17 PM
Hardshell, a 4yo gelding by Songandaprayer, spent all his racing life (20 starts, 2010-12) performing inconsistently for trainer Charlton Baker on the NYRA circuit.
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=8293045®istry=T
After being eased and fading badly in his last two starts at AQU, he was shipped up to Finger Lakes at the end of April and dropped for a bottom $4K tag. Just another falling apart horse on the scrap heap, right?
He wins the 5F race easily with an 83 Beyer. No claim.
Next race, a one mile starter allowance two weeks later.. wins easy again, 81 Beyer.
A starter allow. sprint six days later, and another laugher.. wrapped up late, he earns a 101 Beyer.
Here's how that 101 Beyer compared to other top winning Beyers from that week:
1. I'LL HAVE ANOTHER - 109 - Preakness Stakes (G1) - 1 3/16 Miles - Pimlico
1. SAGINAW - 109 - Affirmed Success Stakes - 7 Furlongs - Belmont
3. AGAVE KISS - 106 - Miss Preakness Stakes - 6 Furlongs - Pimlico
3. PAYNTER - 106 - Alw 50000NC - 1 1/16 Miles - Pimlico
5. ALTERNATION - 101 - Pimlico Special (G3) - 1 3/16 Miles - Pimlico
5. HARDSHELL - 101 - Alw 5000s - 6 Furlongs - Finger Lakes
His 101 Beyer has subsequently been adjusted up to 103.
Next start was this past Saturday, an allowance/optional claiming..
Wins again, wrapped up late again, 97 Beyer.
A horse for the course? I guess we'll see.. can't imagine he won't be heading back downstate..
Some_One
06-21-2012, 12:53 AM
Something they don't test for at FL? Does the trainer have a pattern like this?
Quesmark
06-21-2012, 01:16 AM
It's probably just something in the water....
toetoe
06-21-2012, 01:19 AM
Let's go to Mr. Calo's call:
"Hardshell comes callin'. Front and center !!!. This one together as one. How do ya like me now ? At a nice price [3/10]. Hope ya had 'm-m-m-m."
jerry-g
06-21-2012, 05:09 AM
After reading the pp's lines for some time now, I realize there
is more to handicapping than meets the eye.
I think the barn was in no way concerned about the horse being
claimed due to its poor Aqua performances. The mystery to
me is why they made him the favorite and last out he only
paid 25 cents. Then they let the 2nd and 3rd place horse on
his heels to come in at boxcar odds.
sammy the sage
06-21-2012, 05:39 AM
no testing for FROG at the lakes...yet... :faint:
wisconsin
06-21-2012, 09:30 AM
Then they let the 2nd and 3rd place horse on
his heels to come in at boxcar odds.
When you say "they let" in reference to the runner's up, are you insinuating a fixed race? Who, exactly are "they"? Just curious.
Saratoga_Mike
06-21-2012, 09:40 AM
After reading the pp's lines for some time now, I realize there
is more to handicapping than meets the eye.
I think the barn was in no way concerned about the horse being
claimed due to its poor Aqua performances. The mystery to
me is why they made him the favorite and last out he only
paid 25 cents. Then they let the 2nd and 3rd place horse on
his heels to come in at boxcar odds.
The horse that finished 2nd was the third choice.
jerry-g
06-21-2012, 11:07 AM
Yes he was third in the ranks and quite a spread from 25 cents to 14.10
jerry-g
06-21-2012, 11:10 AM
When you say "they let" in reference to the runner's up, are you insinuating a fixed race? Who, exactly are "they"? Just curious.
I thought it was "Prima Facia" meaning the crowd bet the horses and set the
odds. Maybe not enough people that day to affect the odds.
Saratoga_Mike
06-21-2012, 11:22 AM
Yes he was third in the ranks and quite a spread from 25 cents to 14.10
He was 14-1 b/c of the presence of a huge fav. If the huge fav wasn't in the race, he would have been 3-1 or 4-1.
wisconsin
06-21-2012, 11:33 AM
I thought it was "Prima Facia" meaning the crowd bet the horses and set the
odds. Maybe not enough people that day to affect the odds.
The public bet the favorite hot and heavy that day. Everyone else had to be a price.
jerry-g
06-21-2012, 11:35 AM
He was 14-1 b/c of the presence of a huge fav. If the huge fav wasn't in the race, he would have been 3-1 or 4-1.
Thanks Mike. Now that does make sense to me. I've not studied
the how and why off odds. I should ask more questions about
the stuff I find strange. So the 1-4 made the odds on the other
horses stay up there.
A 103 Beyer!?
Some here would say he should have run in the Stephan Foster.
Definitely a candidate for the Whitney.
Linny
06-21-2012, 01:04 PM
When one horse is heavily bet, all the others' prices are artificially high. Watch the board in a race with a heavy favorite that gets bet hard early. Lets say he opens at 1-9. Everyone else (typically it's a fairly short field) will be double digits. As the fav drifts to 1-5 or so, the others come down and usually a clear second and third choice are established. A horse that looks interesting at 21-1 with 10 MTP might not look so good at 5-1 as they load the gate.
As for Hardshell, he burned me a time or two in the winter and he proves that old adage that horses that simply outclass their rivals sometimes do things they wouldn't or couldn't when facing better horses. Typically you see it in the classy allowance/high claiming type that runs Beyers in the 95-100 range but when he faces stakes runners he runs 6th with an 84 while the winner runs a 90. Left Bank was that type for a while before he finally broke through. I'll be curious to see what a horse like Saginaw does if spotted with true graded type horses.
When one horse is heavily bet, all the others' prices are artificially high. Watch the board in a race with a heavy favorite that gets bet hard early. Lets say he opens at 1-9. Everyone else (typically it's a fairly short field) will be double digits.
How is this "artificially high"? 14 to 1 is 14 to 1, whether a horse is 3rd choice or 8th choice.
Linny
06-21-2012, 01:16 PM
How is this "artificially high"? 14 to 1 is 14 to 1, whether a horse is 3rd choice or 8th choice.
High relative to the the heavy favorite. If the 1-5 horse is a gate scratch that 14-1 shot becomes a 3-1 shot in one flash. If the favorite in that race were of the typical 5-2 variety, the 3rd choice would have been about 6-1 or so, not 14-1.
"Artificial" was probably the wrong word. Typically a 14-1 3rd choice is only available when someone is heavily odds on.
mistergee
06-21-2012, 01:25 PM
A 103 Beyer!?
Some here would say he should have run in the Stephan Foster.
Definitely a candidate for the Whitney.
would have been nice claim for 4k , eh?
would have been nice claim for 4k , eh?
Only if you have the same magic potion.
I'm stopping by the tack on my way home tonight to see if I can get some of it......for ME!!!!!!:eek:
FantasticDan
07-22-2012, 12:02 PM
BUMP
In for $20K claim today at Saratoga, 4th race, 6F on the dirt..
BUMP
In for $20K claim today at Saratoga, 4th race, 6F on the dirt..
Looks pretty suspicious, don't you think?
FantasticDan
07-22-2012, 12:41 PM
Looks pretty suspicious, don't you think?Well, the horse had been running for lower tags than this at AQU before he headed to Finger Lakes. He may have been running holes in the wind vs weak competition at FL, but looking at his complete history, this basically looks like the NYRA level he'd been at for quite some time.
Well, the horse had been running for lower tags than this at AQU before he headed to Finger Lakes. He may have been running holes in the wind vs weak competition at FL, but looking at his complete history, this basically looks like the NYRA level he'd been at for quite some time.
Looks like a dump job to me. We'll see...
PICSIX
07-22-2012, 02:19 PM
Looks like a dump job to me. We'll see...
Agree, believe they have squeezed the lemon dry.
Some_One
07-22-2012, 03:14 PM
Agree, believe they have squeezed the lemon dry.
Or the FL vets turn a blind eye to certain 'supplements'.
FantasticDan
07-22-2012, 03:22 PM
Horse had absolutely nothing today, finishing next to last.. claimed by Rick Dutrow. Yeesh.
Just in time for the Haskell.
Horse had absolutely nothing today, finishing next to last.. claimed by Rick Dutrow. Yeesh.
I tried to warn you.
Just in time for the Haskell.
Well, maybe the Iselin.
FantasticDan
07-22-2012, 05:54 PM
I tried to warn you.Tried to warn me of what? What was I not aware of? Obviously the horse has issues, and obviously his connections weren't married to him, otherwise he wouldn't have been dumped at FL for $4K after being offered for cheaper and cheaper tags at NYRA. I detailed that in my previous posts.
And I haven't wagered so much as a dime on this horse since I first saw him at FL.
Tried to warn me of what? What was I not aware of? Obviously the horse has issues, and obviously his connections weren't married to him, otherwise he wouldn't have been dumped at FL for $4K after being offered for cheaper and cheaper tags at NYRA. I detailed that in my previous posts.
And I haven't wagered so much as a dime on this horse since I first saw him at FL.
Never mind, don't take it personally. I was right, nothing more. I'm wrong plenty. But in this case you tried to tell me why it wasn't a dump job when clearly it was. Horses that run a couple near 100 or better Beyers, whether at Belmont, Finger Lakes, or on the moon, aren't entered back for 20k without it being a dump job.
The horse was an obvious throw out for me at 2-1, top figures or not, and yes I'm a figure guy. I'm sure a lot of people appreciated the handicapping insight even if you aren't one of them.
FantasticDan
07-22-2012, 06:10 PM
But in this case you tried to tell me why it wasn't a dump job when clearly it was. Horses that run a couple near 100 or better Beyers, whether at Belmont, Finger Lakes, or on the moon, aren't entered back for 20k without it being a dump job. :confused: When did I try and tell you it wasn't a dump job? All I did was point out that they'd already tried to dump him a bunch of other times, including for $4k! Back in February he ran a dominating 89 Beyer at AQU, and he was in for a tag after that one too.
:confused: When did I try and tell you it wasn't a dump job? All I did was point out that they'd already tried to dump him a bunch of other times, including for $4k! Back in February he ran a dominating 89 Beyer at AQU, and he was in for a tag after that one too.
An 89 is a lot different than a 103 and a 97. Anyway, it doesn't matter, just miscommunication.
Looks like a dump job to me. We'll see...
What's the definition of a dump job?
FantasticDan
07-22-2012, 09:32 PM
What's the definition of a dump job?When all the toilets stop working on Belmont day :blush: :p
What's the definition of a dump job?
Dropping a horse below what his PPs would indicate is the value, hoping for a claim.
Hardshell, a 4yo gelding by Songandaprayer, spent all his racing life (20 starts, 2010-12) performing inconsistently for trainer Charlton Baker on the NYRA circuit.
http://www.equibase.com/profiles/Results.cfm?type=Horse&refno=8293045®istry=T
After being eased and fading badly in his last two starts at AQU, he was shipped up to Finger Lakes at the end of April and dropped for a bottom $4K tag. Just another falling apart horse on the scrap heap, right?
He wins the 5F race easily with an 83 Beyer. No claim.
Next race, a one mile starter allowance two weeks later.. wins easy again, 81 Beyer.
A starter allow. sprint six days later, and another laugher.. wrapped up late, he earns a 101 Beyer.
Here's how that 101 Beyer compared to other top winning Beyers from that week:
1. I'LL HAVE ANOTHER - 109 - Preakness Stakes (G1) - 1 3/16 Miles - Pimlico
1. SAGINAW - 109 - Affirmed Success Stakes - 7 Furlongs - Belmont
3. AGAVE KISS - 106 - Miss Preakness Stakes - 6 Furlongs - Pimlico
3. PAYNTER - 106 - Alw 50000NC - 1 1/16 Miles - Pimlico
5. ALTERNATION - 101 - Pimlico Special (G3) - 1 3/16 Miles - Pimlico
5. HARDSHELL - 101 - Alw 5000s - 6 Furlongs - Finger Lakes
His 101 Beyer has subsequently been adjusted up to 103.
Next start was this past Saturday, an allowance/optional claiming..
Wins again, wrapped up late again, 97 Beyer.
A horse for the course? I guess we'll see.. can't imagine he won't be heading back downstate..
My speed ratings rate the horse 78-80-83-82, which is in line with what the horse had accomplished before (81 at Aqueduct in Feb, for example). The horse is just running the same numbers against weaker competition imo.
classhandicapper
07-23-2012, 11:45 AM
That horse has always done his best racing when he controlled the pace against weaker. There were some fast horses in yesterday's race and it was pretty hot up front. So it wasn't an ideal setup. He could also just be totally "done". It will be interesting to see what Dutrow can do with him from here. :rolleyes:
Robert Fischer
07-23-2012, 11:57 AM
he took a fair amount of money.
If you got it right = nice job. , If you bet the horse = you were not alone.
BlueShoe
07-23-2012, 02:56 PM
I confess, I got sucked in and bet him. Should have known better, there were three things did not like; in for a 20k tag, five week layoff, and dead on the board. He actually went off as 2nd choice, the #6 went favored, thought he would get get pounded down to around 1-1, 6-5 or so. Just love runners that come off of swift easy wins like he did, hard to resist not taking them next time out. Some do, some don't, in this case he did not, should have passed.
Saratoga_Mike
07-23-2012, 07:51 PM
Dropping a horse below what his PPs would indicate is the value, hoping for a claim.
I thought the horse was a complete pitch* because of the pressure he would face if he hit the front. At FL, he had things his way - so I discounted his recent form in a big way. Do I think they were trying to lose him? I really don't. Putting the figures aside, they were raising the horse in class in a huge way. I'm surprised Dutrow took him. But if anyone can reproduce his FL figs at NYRA tracks it's him.
*I still landed on the wrong horse of course
PICSIX
07-24-2012, 10:35 AM
I thought the horse was a complete pitch* because of the pressure he would face if he hit the front. At FL, he had things his way - so I discounted his recent form in a big way. Do I think they were trying to lose him? I really don't. Putting the figures aside, they were raising the horse in class in a huge way. I'm surprised Dutrow took him. But if anyone can reproduce his FL figs at NYRA tracks it's him.
*I still landed on the wrong horse of course
I hate it when that happens!!! :mad:
Speaking of Finger Lakes, it was bombs away day today.....83-1 shot wins, Trifecta pays more than the super - Trifecta (2-9-8) Paid: $10,201.00, $1 Superfecta (2-9-8-7) Paid: $8,535.50
38-1 wins, Trifecta (9-8-5) Paid: $7,323.00, $1 Superfecta (9-8-5-2) Paid: $7,860.50,
No, not even close!~~
FantasticDan
07-26-2012, 11:41 AM
Barn fire at Finger Lakes early this morning.. several track ponies inside, all were led to safety by the trainer who called 911. Barn is a loss..
FantasticDan
09-06-2012, 12:26 PM
I'm surprised Dutrow took him. But if anyone can reproduce his FL figs at NYRA tracks it's him.Has his first start today since Dutrow's July claim, but back at Finger Lakes for a starter allowance, 3rd race..
picojim
09-06-2012, 02:13 PM
Has his first start today since Dutrow's July claim, but back at Finger Lakes for a starter allowance, 3rd race..
despite a bad start, wins at 1/2
Saratoga_Mike
09-07-2012, 05:30 PM
If all goes according to plan, I suspect we'll see this horse at GP on Dec 1 in one of the Claiming Crown races. And today's placement shows the former connections probably weren't trying to lose him at Saratoga. If he had real issues, Dutrow would have raced him back for a cheap tag at BEL.
tbwinner
09-07-2012, 05:40 PM
Or maybe the horse really likes Finger Lakes.
If all goes according to plan, I suspect we'll see this horse at GP on Dec 1 in one of the Claiming Crown races. And today's placement shows the former connections probably weren't trying to lose him at Saratoga. If he had real issues, Dutrow would have raced him back for a cheap tag at BEL.
I would disagree. They had to know the horse would be claimed. Once Dutrow claimed him, all bets were off!
FantasticDan
09-07-2012, 07:22 PM
What was his BSF for yesterday's race? I'm guessing 80-85?
Saratoga_Mike
09-08-2012, 10:01 AM
I would disagree. They had to know the horse would be claimed. Once Dutrow claimed him, all bets were off!
I respect your opinion very much, but I totally disagree with you on this one for reasons cited previously.
What was his BSF for yesterday's race? I'm guessing 80-85?
Good guess....84
I respect your opinion very much, but I totally disagree with you on this one for reasons cited previously.
You really think they didn't expect a claim? I would say the chances of a horse coming in with those last two Beyers not getting claimed would be less than 1%, much less.
Saratoga_Mike
09-08-2012, 02:31 PM
You really think they didn't expect a claim? I would say the chances of a horse coming in with those last two Beyers not getting claimed would be less than 1%, much less.
I love claiming horses stepping up in class (shows the connections are trying to protect the horse), but I wouldn't have been too interested in this one. The amazing figures were earned at FL where the pace dynamics and quality of the stock is dramatically different than at NYRA. I'm a huge Beyer fan, but speed figures have their limitations - I would have discounted the FL Beyers significantly in this case.
jognlope
09-08-2012, 03:01 PM
Love stores like these.
jognlope
09-08-2012, 03:05 PM
Stories
thespaah
09-08-2012, 04:01 PM
High relative to the the heavy favorite. If the 1-5 horse is a gate scratch that 14-1 shot becomes a 3-1 shot in one flash. If the favorite in that race were of the typical 5-2 variety, the 3rd choice would have been about 6-1 or so, not 14-1.
"Artificial" was probably the wrong word. Typically a 14-1 3rd choice is only available when someone is heavily odds on.
It looks like some of us forgot the meaning of "pari-mutuel"...rough translation..."among ourselves"..The pool is the pool. Leaves me scratching my head this is even being discussed.
thespaah
09-08-2012, 04:04 PM
What I find unusual is those getting caught up in the Speed fig then the subsequent comparisons to graded stakes horses.
On very rare occasions have low priced claimers ever been able to compete against stakes type horses.
Peat Moss is one that comes to mind. Went from a claimer to almost winning the JCGP. With the hardware store in his leg, to boot.
thespaah
09-08-2012, 04:07 PM
When all the toilets stop working on Belmont day :blush: :p
Well you see it's like this.... :lol:
I love claiming horses stepping up in class (shows the connections are trying to protect the horse), but I wouldn't have been too interested in this one. The amazing figures were earned at FL where the pace dynamics and quality of the stock is dramatically different than at NYRA. I'm a huge Beyer fan, but speed figures have their limitations - I would have discounted the FL Beyers significantly in this case.
I understand, but I wasn't debating the point about whether you would claim the horse. It was obvious the horse would be claimed by somebody.
Saratoga_Mike
09-08-2012, 05:47 PM
I understand, but I wasn't debating the point about whether you would claim the horse. It was obvious the horse would be claimed by somebody.
My reasoning would apply to most people looking to claim a horse moving up in class, imo. We just disagree, not a huge deal, imo.
My reasoning would apply to most people looking to claim a horse moving up in class, imo. We just disagree, not a huge deal, imo.
Do you know how many claims were in for the horse? I'll find out if you don't, but I doubt it was just one. When one of the top trainers in the game claims the horse, I don't think it is reasonable to say most people wouldn't consider this one. I would have given 50 to 1 to anyone that would have bet on "no claim".
Saratoga_Mike
09-08-2012, 05:54 PM
Do you know how many claims were in for the horse? I'll find out if you don't, but I doubt it was just one. When one of the top trainers in the game claims the horse, I don't think it is reasonable to say most people wouldn't consider this one.
Then why did you call it a "dump job?" Dump job implies the horse had major physical issues - why would someone claim a "dump job?" Obviously I didn't think it was a dump job. I think the connections wanted a reasonable chance to win a race at Saratoga with a horse that ran big numbers at a third-tier track. No, I don't know how many claims were in on him - wasn't in the racing office when he was taken.
Saratoga_Mike
09-08-2012, 06:01 PM
And if you want to offer 50-1 odds on any horse shipping from FL to Saratoga getting claimed in the future, I'll take the bet.
Then why did you call it a "dump job?" Dump job implies the horse had major physical issues - why would someone claim a "dump job?" Obviously I didn't think it was a dump job. I think the connections wanted a reasonable chance to win a race at Saratoga with a horse that ran big numbers at a third-tier track. No, I don't know how many claims were in on him - wasn't in the racing office when he was taken.
They wanted to lose the horse. That is all I'm saying. Normally on a dump job, somebody does take the horse. Taking a smaller circuit, big figure horse to a bigger circuit is going to result in a claim nearly every single time.
To me, a dump job is when you enter a horse in a race with it being a virtual certainty it won't be yours after the race. That is what this was to me, and it turned out that way too. It doesn't mean the connections doing the dumping are being smart or dumb. But they had to know they were going to lose the horse...period.
At the very most, they thought a horse with huge Beyer figures was worth the winning purse and the claiming price, and that assumes they thought he would win. That was a huge negative for that race. We'll see in the future how smart of a move it was.
One other thing, this "third tier track" stuff is pretty funny. Horses transfer big figures from small tracks to big tracks all the time. It isn't like it is some impossibility. The horse was 2 to 1 in the race. Lets not pretend he was 99 to 1. He ran horribly and it had nothing to do with easy trips in his last few. He ran into a monster that is currently moving through his conditions for another miracle worker trainer.
And if you want to offer 50-1 odds on any horse shipping from FL to Saratoga getting claimed in the future, I'll take the bet.
Yeah, that is what I said. I know we all like to sound clever, but if you don't think this horse would be claimed 99 times out of 100, you are crazy.
Saratoga_Mike
09-08-2012, 06:26 PM
They wanted to lose the horse. That is all I'm saying. Normally on a dump job, somebody does take the horse. 1) Taking a smaller circuit, big figure horse to a bigger circuit is going to result in a claim nearly every single time.
One other thing, this "third tier track" stuff is pretty funny. Horses transfer big figures from small tracks to big tracks all the time. 2) It isn't like it is some impossibility. The horse was 2 to 1 in the race. Lets not pretend he was 99 to 1. He ran horribly and it had nothing to do with easy trips in his last few. He ran into a monster that is currently moving through his conditions for another miracle worker trainer.
1) That doesn't even make sense. I had a horse at CT a few yrs ago. He ran a 95 Beyer (with a big pace fig too) in a starter allowance (had claimed him for $7,500). If I took him to BEL and put him in for $15k, he would have gotten claimed? Come on, you know that isn't true.
2) I didn't say it was impossible.
Anyway, we just disagree. You need to show you're right. Fine. I respect your racing opinion very much, so I'm not going down this path any further.
1) That doesn't even make sense.
2) I didn't say it was impossible.
Anyway, we just disagree. You need to show you're right. Fine. I respect your racing opinion very much, so I'm not going down this path any further.
1) What doesn't make sense? If a horse enters a race from a smaller track with figures that appear best at the bigger track, it will be claimed a high percentage of the time.
To further that, a horse with its two most recent figures being around 100 Beyer (and not before a layoff) running for a 20k tag will be claimed EVERY time at ANY track in the US. That is my only argument.
I've been wrong plenty of times, and have no problem saying as much when I am wrong. I just don't see how you can argue the points above.
It has nothing to do with whether you or I would claim the horse. I wouldn't, and you said you wouldn't. I just knew SOMEBODY would...every time. I can't imagine the connections of Hardshell didn't know it.
Maximillion
09-08-2012, 10:16 PM
Imo it wasnt all that different from a pro sport team willing to unload a "good" veteran player whos value was at an all time high...and maybe cash a purse.
FantasticDan
10-07-2012, 02:41 PM
Don't want to start a new thread just to mention this, so will use this one.. Finger Lakes is going to a Monday-Friday schedule starting after Breeder's Cup Day.. no weekend racing.
This is new for them, right Tom (or any FLers)? :confused:
They haven't run on Sundays in a while, but I can't remember not running on Saturdays. Ever.
They usually cut back on days mid November, but that was Fri-Sat-Mon-Tues. They must be giving up on live attendance.
thespaah
10-07-2012, 11:20 PM
Looks like a smart move to me. Perhaps FL management may believe running Mon -Fri will leave them not competing with more popular tracks for handle?
FantasticDan
10-07-2012, 11:56 PM
Yeah, Saturdays and Sundays were almost always their weakest handle days, competing with big weekends at NYRA and other major tracks. They got rid of the Sunday racing a couple yrs ago like Tom said, but I was startled when I saw the new changes to their schedule - SAT being eliminated.
But it makes sense.. last month of the meet, weather is usually lousy and their promotions are mostly over, so on-track attendance would likely be very low, even on a Saturday. And their simulcast customers will show up anyway..
grant miller
10-10-2012, 07:46 PM
we at western o.t.b. bitched enough to o.t.b. that we hated the finger lakes betting disterk (sp?) - if fans cant bet hawthore or any other track - why go to o.t.b.---unfortually they lost the core bettoers (20) or so that like to bet other tracks than f-l I hope its not to late to bring back fans before we close!!!! grant miller, hornell n.y.
A team of morons could not run racing Western NY worse than the way it is run now.
There is no sense whatsoever to the stupid rules that make the game a waste of time.
Anyone who bets through WROTB really is getting screwed.
FantasticDan
10-18-2012, 11:59 AM
Dutrow shipped him to Laurel, where's he in for a $7500 tag today, 4th race..
Dan do you ever get to Finger Lakes?
FantasticDan
10-18-2012, 12:58 PM
Dan do you ever get to Finger Lakes?Not too much the past couple yrs. I try to get there a couple times during SAR, and I may stop in for a couple races if the wife wants to visit Eastview Mall, but that's about it..
Same here - not much anymore.
We should meet sometime - I've run into a few guys from Pace and Cap there before -- usually have a fun afternoon.
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