More cheating, new test finds synthetic morphine

[Grits]

http://www.drf.com/news/ten-horses-test-positive-powerful-painikiller-louisiana

New test finds powerful OPIATE and more cheating. One can't gauge snake venom used in horses, as has been suspected, as its never been used therapeutically in humans. But, every one of us can identify with the effects of morphine.

The horses have all tested positive for demorphin, an opioid that is produced naturally as a secretion by South American frogs but one that can also be produced synthetically, Barker said. The drug is believed to have 30 to 40 times more potency than morphine in similar concentrations, and the recommended penalty for a positive of the drug is a minimum one-year suspension, loss of purse, and $10,000 fine.

I'm sick of this. I'm sick of being all over the pages of newspapers, magazines, websites, etc. If someone doesn't stop sitting on their @**, there will be NOTHING left of this game. People will NOT continue to put money through windows when CHEATERS are this rampant.

NOTE TO ALL TRAINERS: If you are not any good at training horses. If you lack the knowledge it takes to keep these animals in racing condition. If your skills are so poor that you have to CHEAT to race your horses. Get the hell out of this game. Get off your @** and find yourself another job. YOU are not wanted here. YOU don't deserve to be near an animal. YOU don't deserve to hold a trainer's license.

[lamboguy]

you have every right in the world to be sick. i know all about it when i run my horses and lose to the super-trainers.

but this year seems to be different, our horses have been winning 2 year old races all over the country, and our best ones have not gone to the plate yet.

i would love to prove that you can win big 3 yo races without drugs next year, i have a bunch of real good chances to do just that.

[sammy the sage]

Wonder how MANY they'll find at the BIGGER tracks....and HOW quick THIS test will be AVAILABLE to them.......

[Meunuco]

I'm sick of this. I'm sick of being all over the pages of newspapers, magazines, websites, etc. If someone doesn't stop sitting on their @**, there will be NOTHING left of this game. People will NOT continue to put money through windows when CHEATERS are this rampant.

NOTE TO ALL TRAINERS: If you are not any good at training horses. If you lack the knowledge it takes to keep these animals in racing condition. If your skills are so poor that you have to CHEAT to race your horses. Get the hell out of this game. Get off your @** and find yourself another job. YOU are not wanted here. YOU don't deserve to be near an animal. YOU don't deserve to hold a trainer's license.

Out of curiosity, who do you think are the 'clean' trainers presently?

[tzipi]

NOTE TO ALL TRAINERS: If you are not any good at training horses. If you lack the knowledge it takes to keep these animals in racing condition. If your skills are so poor that you have to CHEAT to race your horses. Get the hell out of this game. Get off your @** and find yourself another job. YOU are not wanted here. YOU don't deserve to be near an animal. YOU don't deserve to hold a trainer's license.


You're absolutely right Grits but as long as multiple drug conviction trainers are allowed to continue to train and run horses and the casino money is used to give more and more money to them and the owner, you'll have the trainers cheating out there.

[mannyberrios]

you have every right in the world to be sick. i know all about it when i run my horses and lose to the super-trainers.

but this year seems to be different, our horses have been winning 2 year old races all over the country, and our best ones have not gone to the plate yet.

i would love to prove that you can win big 3 yo races without drugs next year, i have a bunch of real good chances to do just that.
I'm with you all the way. Good luck, Lambo

[mannyberrios]

Hi Grits! I love this game too much to see it go down for something as stupid as this. I just hope that they do something about this, and that everything will be alright . Take Care

[Grits]

Out of curiosity, who do you think are the 'clean' trainers presently?

Out of fatigue and disgust, I'm not interested in your question, presently.

This is an online messageboard with a population greater than any pertaining to thoroughbred racing, currently, showing 195 members and 557 guests present and there are no more than 6 replies to the thread. If the piece had been written by Joe Drape at the NYT or if these trainers were in the state of New York instead of Louisiana, the thread would've exceeded 10 pages in the first 4 hours.

Maybe cheating with claimers is more tolerable.

[iceknight]

Out of fatigue and disgust, I'm not interested in your question, presently.

This is an online messageboard with a population greater than any pertaining to thoroughbred racing, currently, showing 195 members and 557 guests present and there are no more than 6 replies to the thread. I think your thread is not so cared for because people reply more on weekends. Showing fatigue and disgust at people who do join the discussion will only turn them away even more from the thread/topic.
I think the news is not on fire because simply put, sports editors do not care about small tracks etc. A Lasix news of Kentucky or NY will make more news than frogs jumping into the water being fed to horses (ok I made that part up- but I am sure there will be excuses like "hay", water contamination etc)

[iceknight]

http://www.drf.com/news/ten-horses-test-positive-powerful-painikiller-louisiana. A more important note that you could have pointed out was the TEN horses from EIGHT trainers tested positive for this.

Also, split samples are being tested at another lab to verify. (drf)

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/ten-louisiana-based-horses-test-positive-for-powerful-opiate-painkiller/

[JustRalph]

I find it very interesting. But I don't think anybody is surprised at all.

I am sure there are little vials and syringes hitting the trash cans all over America tonight............

[Seabiscuit@AR]

One obvious way to reduce doping by trainers is longer suspensions for those caught. But another approach would be to force the tote/ADWs to pay out on the new result after a horse is DQed for doping. This means the tote operators would be forced to pay out on two sets of results (one when the race is official and a second set when the placings are adjusted down the track for a DQ). So you would be penalizing the tote operators/ADWs as they would suffer a losing result on the race most likely. But I think this is a fairer set up than the one in place presently

Apart from anything else the betting operators are in a position where they can force the tracks to implement better drug testing regimes. If they start feeling some pain each time a horse is DQed for drugs then they will be on to the tracks to stop the cheats. Plus you could also make it the law that the betting operators could deduct any losses they suffer from purse money paid out to the tracks if a DQ takes place. And so the losses fall where they belong with the trainers at the track where the DQ happened

At the moment if a DQ takes place the horse loses its finish position and the prizemoney is lost. It is only fair that the bettors who had the winning combinations on the new placings after DQ get paid out. Under current rules the bettors are taking all the losses from the cheating and then have no power to force any change. So things never change. Inflicting some pain on the tote operators who have some power to force changes in the game (as they control the purse strings) might change things for the better

[Robert Fischer]

You're absolutely right Grits but as long as multiple drug conviction trainers are allowed to continue to train and run horses and the casino money is used to give more and more money to them and the owner, you'll have the trainers cheating out there.

they'll cheat for the money, that's for sure...
I'm not so sure that more money is a bad thing.
I think we've proven somewhat that when money far exceeds the claiming prices, it comes at a cost to the horse. However, more money in general can actually be a good thing with cheating.

People are going to cheat. You either throw the horses in quarantine for 2 weeks and have some cheating with the regulators or gov't assigned body that holds the quarantine (as well as inconsistencies...) or you leave it as it is. With the status quo, at least we can handicap for the cheating and the intent.

[FenceBored]

I think your thread is not so cared for because people reply more on weekends. Showing fatigue and disgust at people who do join the discussion will only turn them away even more from the thread/topic.
I think the news is not on fire because simply put, sports editors do not care about small tracks etc. A Lasix news of Kentucky or NY will make more news than frogs jumping into the water being fed to horses (ok I made that part up- but I am sure there will be excuses like "hay", water contamination etc)

At the moment I write, this thread has twice the views and twice the replies of the thread on the Ky Lasix ban approval.

[Grits]

I think your thread is not so cared for because people reply more on weekends. Showing fatigue and disgust at people who do join the discussion will only turn them away even more from the thread/topic.
I think the news is not on fire because simply put, sports editors do not care about small tracks etc. A Lasix news of Kentucky or NY will make more news than frogs jumping into the water being fed to horses (ok I made that part up- but I am sure there will be excuses like "hay", water contamination etc)

Good morning, IceKnight.

a. The thread is not mine. Who starts a thread is irrelevant. If I wailed every time something I posted was not read, I'd never be posting again. I start threads here throughout the week and the weekend. I highlight one paragraph for the link, this is the usual protocol. It's not my responsibility to see that you read the link in its entirety. That's up to you. My disgust is with the cheating. Learning that a drug this POWERFUL is being injected into horses. If you've ever had any experience with morphine, or its drug family, you know these horses are stepping onto the racetrack doped to a level that has them as high as a kite. They feel nothing. This troubles me a great deal.

b. As for editors, any editors, sports or otherwise, not having interest? Please, forward your note to the New York Times. -- By the way, Matt Hegarty has long been the DRF's best. He doesn't get it wrong very often. (Though I'm sure someone will claim the contrary.)

I'm tired of bettors getting screwed by individuals that are incompetent. And this goes for the ones cheating and for the ones doing nothing with regard to regulating, fining, and banning them.

There's an old saying, "if one expects nothing, they get nothing". And this is what this sport is becoming. Nothing.

[JBmadera]

It's bad enough that human athletes choose to dope but it is unconscionable what these trainers do to equine athletes. folks need to start going to prison, not worthless slaps on the wrists.

[pondman]

NOTE TO ALL TRAINERS: If you are not any good at training horses. If you lack the knowledge it takes to keep these animals in racing condition. If your skills are so poor that you have to CHEAT to race your

Drug have always been a part of the game. Going back to the good old days will only result in going back to the use of street narcotics. Ninety percent of the horses running are junkies. The is no such thing as drug free training. You are asking a horse to do thing they would not do in nature without being in pain. This is more cruel, than giving a horse pain killers.

[Grits]

Drug have always been a part of the game. Going back to the good old days will only result in going back to the use of street narcotics. Ninety percent of the horses running are junkies. The is no such thing as drug free training. You are asking a horse to do thing they would not do in nature without being in pain. This is more cruel, than giving a horse pain killers.

There is drug therapy that is allowable. Narcotics/morphine in a horse going into the gate is not. As far as the good old days, no joke? Sure, drugs have always been around. There's a reason that heroin is called, "horse" as I'm sure you know.

I don't think I've indicated anything, whatsoever, about drug free training. This isn't what myself or anyone else is discussing.

If you think morphine is fine on race day, then, you bet him, honey. I'm not. :bang:

[iceknight]

At the moment I write, this thread has twice the views and twice the replies of the thread on the Ky Lasix ban approval. You are mixing up possible interest shown by newspaper editors with PA thread views. Not sure if the correlate linearly.

[iceknight]

If you think morphine is fine on race day, then, you bet him, honey. I'm not. :bang:Good morning to you to as well. And I second that - minus the 'honey'.
ps: yes I've had morphine experience, not really by my choice but it was needed and I was not racing. But I can imagine the effect of being forced to race while morphine is needed. That is cruel to animals and a huge breach of trust toward bettors.

[FenceBored]

You are mixing up possible interest shown by newspaper editors with PA thread views. Not sure if the correlate linearly.

Grits's point (to which you were replying) was about PA thread replies/views, my point was about PA thread replies/views. Who's mixing things up?

[thaskalos]

Horseplayers -- myself included -- like to refer to this as "our" game.

We get mad at the cheating trainers, and the people who manage this sport...because they are "ruining our game". I have said this myself.

But it has slowly occurred to me that this is not really "my" game...and it never was.

I may have patronized it for a very long time...but I have always been an "outsider".

The game belongs to those who run it, both by running the horses and overseeing the operation...and I have always been on the outside looking in.

I see some galant, beautiful animals...and I am angered when they are mistreated.

But "they" see only the pot at the end of the rainbow...so we are speaking a different language.

We are the "suckers"...and they are the ones minding the cash register...

[classhandicapper]

It's bad enough that human athletes choose to dope but it is unconscionable what these trainers do to equine athletes. folks need to start going to prison, not worthless slaps on the wrists.

We should be freezing samples so that testing can eventually catch up with the criminals and then when we find things like this it should be an immediate lifetime ban with massive financial penalties and/or jail time. Even a lifetime ban is not enough because if they get away with something new for long enough they'll get rich before we ban them and not really care anyway.

The punishment has to be severe enough to deter the crime or we are wasting our time.

This is total BS.

It's not like this stuff even impacts me as a gambler. It's simply cruel to the animals and it's theft from honest owners, trainers, jockeys etc...

[bob60566]

Horseplayers -- myself included -- like to refer to this as "our" game.

We get mad at the cheating trainers, and the people who manage this sport...because they are "ruining our game". I have said this myself.

But it has slowly occurred to me that this is not really "my" game...and it never was.

I may have patronized it for a very long time...but I have always been an "outsider".

The game belongs to those who run it, both by running the horses and overseeing the operation...and I have always been on the outside looking in.

I see some galant, beautiful animals...and I am angered when they are mistreated.

But "they" see only the pot at the end of the rainbow...so we are speaking a different language.

We are the "suckers"...and they are the ones minding the cash register...

Well said and they cannot see the endgame is set with there actions.
Mac :ThmbDown:

[sammy the sage]

http://www.drf.com/news/warning-change-test-led-spate-dermorphin-positives

'Bout time...

hopefully as a previous poster suggested...they are SAVING samples...

To make lemonade out of a lemon situation...there are few trainer's I'm going to go against now...you know....the one's w/underlayed odds that can't be beat...

[FenceBored]

http://www.drf.com/news/warning-change-test-led-spate-dermorphin-positives

'Bout time...

hopefully as a previous poster suggested...they are SAVING samples...

To make lemonade out of a lemon situation...there are few trainer's I'm going to go against now...you know....the one's w/underlayed odds that can't be beat...

Money quote from that article:
According to an official with knowledge of the positives, Oklahoma has detected at least 15 post-race positives of dermorphin. Ten of those positives came from one trainer, the official said. {emphasis added}
-- http://www.drf.com/news/warning-change-test-led-spate-dermorphin-positives

[davew]

I really hate it when drug testing labs find sonething that is not there. Some tests are so sensitive that they frequently have false positives. When only 1 testing company can find something, I wonder if they are fishing for more business to increase their bottom line.

I am not saying this is the case here, but those are stiff penalties and suspensions - what if they are wrong? and are finding something that is normally found from eating clover or alfalfa?

[Grits]

what if they are wrong? and are finding something that is normally found from eating clover or alfalfa?

It would be nice if they were wrong. But I've got a feeling they are not. Too, I can't imagine morphine being found among clover, or that alfalfa would be soaked in it.

[lsosa54]

It would be nice if they were wrong. But I've got a feeling they are not. Too, I can't imagine morphine being found among clover, or that alfalfa would be soaked in it.

I'm not a chemist, I don't know how they test, or to what levels, but you may want to re-think your thought about alfalfa:

http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/herbs_alfalfa.html

I do assume there is a specific test to isolate synthetic morphine.

[Grits]

I'm not a chemist, I don't know how they test, or to what levels, but you may want to re-think your thought about alfalfa:

http://www.springboard4health.com/notebook/herbs_alfalfa.html

I do assume there is a specific test to isolate synthetic morphine.

This seems to be what the findings have indicated. Horses have been eating alfalfa for centuries. Seeing the word morphine in a chemical composition where its not indicated in any way related to the horse, beneficially or even detrimentally, doesn't lead me to believe that, all at once, alfalfa is the host, the carrier, for loading horses up on the narcotic. JMO.

[FenceBored]

This seems to be what the findings have indicated. Horses have been eating alfalfa for centuries. Seeing the word morphine in a chemical composition where its not indicated in any way related to the horse, beneficially or even detrimentally, doesn't lead me to believe that, all at once, alfalfa is the host, the carrier, for loading horses up on the narcotic. JMO.

I've seen what's goes on behind the shedrows at these horsetracks:Psst, I've got some real high-grade alfalfa here, plenty of blossoms. This is the goods.

Neeiiggh. That's too stemmy. It's got to have the leaf, dude. The leaf.

[andicap]

"Frog juice" seems confined to four southwestern states.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/sports/horse-racing-discovers-new-drug-problem-one-linked-to-frogs.html?_r=1&nl=afternoonupdate&emc=edit_au_20120619

[lamboguy]

the big undetectable drug chemical or whatever it is today is called ITPP. they are trying right now to develop a test for it.

aside from being undetectable, there has been no side effects noticed from this substance. the more the horses get of this stuff, the better they run.

if you look back at history of the racing game, there has never been a period of time where a trainer with 40 horses improves every single horse that he or she claims from someone else. but that is precisely what has been happening the last few years.

you show me a trainer today that is batting over 20%, that trainer is administering ITPP to their horses or something like it.

i don't understand how it works, but it is something like it induces the hemogloben in the blood to create more oxygen.

from what i understand, a months supply for a horse cost $1000. so to use the stuff the purses have to be financially feasible. http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2010/09/is-itpp-super-trainers-drug-of-choice.html

[andicap]

How many good performances would you get off a horse under these compounds before they went downhill?

[JustRalph]

"Frog juice" seems confined to four southwestern states.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/20/sports/horse-racing-discovers-new-drug-problem-one-linked-to-frogs.html?_r=1&nl=afternoonupdate&emc=edit_au_20120619

Yep, 4 states? Right............

Family guy did a whole episode about this 10 years ago

Why i spend a damn dime in this game anymore is beyond me.

Thanks for the link Andy

[andicap]

Yep, 4 states? Right............

Family guy did a whole episode about this 10 years ago

Why i spend a damn dime in this game anymore is beyond me.

Thanks for the link Andy

I presume IF the other states are clean of "frog juice," they have their own reptilian methods.

[lamboguy]

How many good performances would you get off a horse under these compounds before they went downhill?i don't know first hand, but i do speak to people that know something about this. from what they tell me, the stuff works for many races, however, if you take them off this stuff, the horse does not perform, and if you try to re-administer the stuff it will no longer work. and generally it works better on older horses than the younger ones, but there are those that use it on the younger ones as well.

its a far cry from what i understand, i just got my bills for 2 new york breds that i have in new york training, and my total vet bill was $0. i am beginning to understand why i am going to have a problem going forward.

i also understand why there is a lack of interest in this sport now

[jorcus99]

the big undetectable drug chemical or whatever it is today is called ITPP. they are trying right now to develop a test for it.

aside from being undetectable, there has been no side effects noticed from this substance. the more the horses get of this stuff, the better they run.

if you look back at history of the racing game, there has never been a period of time where a trainer with 40 horses improves every single horse that he or she claims from someone else. but that is precisely what has been happening the last few years.

you show me a trainer today that is batting over 20%, that trainer is administering ITPP to their horses or something like it.

i don't understand how it works, but it is something like it induces the hemogloben in the blood to create more oxygen.

from what i understand, a months supply for a horse cost $1000. so to use the stuff the purses have to be financially feasible. http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2010/09/is-itpp-super-trainers-drug-of-choice.html

I doubt there is a substence that is undetectable. There are only compounds that are not tested for yet. To deal with the problem you have to go after the suppliers. You can chuck every cheating trainer off the grounds for life but there will be another one to take his place unless you deal with where the juice comes from. The cheating trainers do not have the ability to brew up a new compound that out smarts an ELISA or a spectrometer test. These substances come from some place and to find out where follow the money. Purse money and wagering money will point the way.

[Storm Cadet]

I doubt there is a substence that is undetectable. There are only compounds that are not tested for yet.

Great quote. To define the process, all substances are deemed undetectable until the specific lab can identify the gc-ms fingerprint of a specific drug. One it is identified then it is placed, if requested by the racing board as an illegal substance, to the labs testing profile.

The labs are usually the second in the chain to learn of a new doping agent. Once it is brought to their attention, then they have to try and acquire the drug to be able to break it down and test it. That process takes many months.

We just went through this with the NCAA and the other accredited labs in dealing with a new synthetic marajuana from Europe. We all heard the rumours about it, but could not acquire it here in the states. Our lab went to Germany to acquire it, bring it back to their lab to start analysing it. Mind you they had to get people to ingest it, :cool: so the could see how it was metabolized in the urine so they could devise a test for it. Then it took months of analysing the data before the felt good about testing for it in their clients athletes.

And then we found out that all the drug guys had to do was change one small part of the chemical mixture of the synthetic marajuana, and it was undetectable again because they changed the fingerprint again.

Lesson to be learned, the drug guys are always going to be ahead of the test labs with no end in sight.

[nijinski]

Sickening to think that morphine in any form would be used on a race horse.
If they need their pain deadened , they shouldn't be on the track.

Speaking of lab testing . i wonder if Vincent O'Brien would have had a problem if the race Nijinsky ran after his bout of colic was run today.
Here is an excerpt from AbiGail Anderson's" Nijinski, He wore a heart on his Brow".
It mentions an innocent and therapeutic use of Baking Soda.






It all seemed a perfect story. What would only be known several months later was that the colt appeared to suffer a bought of colic a mere 29 hours before the Derby, making it impossible to relieve his pain with the traditional injection if he was to run. For a good 90 minutes, O’Brien and his team waited to see if Nijinsky would come out of whatever was troubling him on that hot, hot day. At the end of their wait, the colt seemed easier and he was no longer sweating. He was offered grass, mixed with a little bran and bicarbonate of soda, which he ate. By evening, Nijinsky was back to his old self, but O’Brien decided that the colt would not travel again without his regular vet, Demi O’Byrne, accompanying him.

[rastajenk]

Why i spend a damn dime in this game anymore is beyond me. Why did you ever get involved in the first place? You're relatively new to this, I think...it hasn't really changed much in ten years. Some around here would have you believe that, but it's not true. How is your handicapping and wagering experience diminished when you learn something you think is new, but it's not?

[takeout]

[snip]
author and adventurist Peter Gorman has had first-hand knowledge of how powerful the substance is for nearly 20 years.
[snip]
Writing in Omni magazine, Gorman said the sapo first made him nauseous, causing his heart to race and his head to pound. He lost consciousness for several hours, but after awakening felt almost super-human.

“My vision, my sense of smell, everything about me felt larger than life, and my body felt immensely strong,” he wrote. “During the next few days my feeling of strength didn’t diminish: I could go whole days without being hungry or thirsty, and move through the jungle for hours without tiring. Every sense I possessed was heightened and in tune with the environment, as though the sapo put the rhythm of the jungle into my blood.”
[snip]

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/the-tree-frog-drug-combating-the-latest-racetrack-cocktail/

[pandy]

This will never end unless they have much stricter punishment. Anyone who gets caught using this stuff should not be fined or suspended, they should be banished from racing. Some of the trainers involved have already been suspended for using illegal substances. The penalties are way too lenient. Doping a racehorse is race fixing. These trainers should actually be turned over to the Feds and prosecuted for committing a felony.

[MightBeSosa]

There's no question that these are Federal offenses and could easily be prosecuted at that level , with long , long sentences and huge fines.

Apparently , there isn't the will to do it.

10 years in the slam and a million dollar fine might dissuade even the most brazen.

[jerry-g]

Perhaps they should include race horses in the "war on drugs". However,
I doubt they ever will. Just last week I read an article about how the
FBI made a bust on several members of the Mexican drug cartel. They
had been buying race horses, training them and then entering them
race tracks in the Southwestern United States. They were doing this
to "launder" drug money. Just how you could launder druggist money
in this way is a mystery to me. At the same time, I wonder just how
bad off this business is when druggist want to use it for their business.

[Grits]

Trainer Christine Janks writes about cheating and demorphin.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/trainer-janks-it-s-fraud-and-it-s-a-felony/

I have been training horses for 40 years, and no owner or potential owner has ever asked me if horses in my care have had any positive tests for prohibited drugs. There is no incentive to hire honest trainers, there is only an incentive to hire the criminals. If these trainers get caught, owners blithely move on to the next criminal trainer.

If these same fraudulent acts were committed in banking, real estate or other businesses and industries, people would be indicted. A District Attorney certainly could make a case against possession of illegal substances and interstate fraud. It is a felony to alter the outcome of a sporting event, and surely one with billions of dollars of legal wagering, so a basket full of felony charges should result.

Where is the outrage from the owners who lose to hopped-up horses? Until they start demanding that racing officials call the police, then nothing will change.

I have said, and will continue to say, racing can be quickly cleaned up. Take a couple of trainers off the grounds in handcuffs and rule the doped horses off for a year. Overnight, owners will be looking for honest trainers.

[PaceAdvantage]

There is much sense in what she says.

It is peculiar that horses testing positive for performance enhancing drugs don't trigger a criminal investigation.

But then again, these cases would be tied up in court for years as indicted trainers claim ignorance as to how the drugs got into the horse's system. It's tough to prove who exactly drugged the horse without a smoking gun. Who's to say a rival trainer didn't sneak into the barn and dope the horse up? Or a pissed off employee didn't slip something into the feed or water bucket?

It's easy to say all these things would be quick solutions, but they probably wouldn't pan out so easily in real life.

That is the likely reason why drug positives don't trigger criminal investigations. A racetrack can say the trainer is ultimately responsible, but criminal law wouldn't be able to prosecute under that doctrine. They would need proof that the trainer was the one who actually doped the horse up...and that would be pretty hard to come by....

[lamboguy]

There is much sense in what she says.

It is peculiar that horses testing positive for performance enhancing drugs don't trigger a criminal investigation.

But then again, these cases would be tied up in court for years as indicted trainers claim ignorance as to how the drugs got into the horse's system. It's tough to prove who exactly drugged the horse without a smoking gun. Who's to say a rival trainer didn't sneak into the barn and dope the horse up? Or a pissed off employee didn't slip something into the feed or water bucket?

It's easy to say all these things would be quick solutions, but they probably wouldn't pan out so easily in real life.

That is the likely reason why drug positives don't trigger criminal investigations. A racetrack can say the trainer is ultimately responsible, but criminal law wouldn't be able to prosecute under that doctrine. They would need proof that the trainer was the one who actually doped the horse up...and that would be pretty hard to come by....certainly this is a devil's advocate view of the situation. in a nutshell, what you are saying is that the sport of racing unlike other amateur and professional sports has no control of the product that they sell the public. however if you look at other jurisdiction's throughout the world, such as Japan and Honk Kong, they seem to have the solution's to these problems. the reason why they do is because they produce very large betting handles in the $100 million per day range and find the need to protect the public. look at new york racing yesterday with a top race on their program, The Mother Goose Stakes, that race track barely broke a $10 million total handle and had way less than 10,000 people in live attendance. the sport is nothing short of boring these days. fans do not want to watch doped up horses run around race tracks throughout the land and people excel at the sport that cheat.

[PaceAdvantage]

certainly this is a devil's advocate view of the situation. in a nutshell, what you are saying is that the sport of racing unlike other amateur and professional sports has no control of the product that they sell the public. however if you look at other jurisdiction's throughout the world, such as Japan and Honk Kong, they seem to have the solution's to these problems. the reason why they do is because they produce very large betting handles in the $100 million per day range and find the need to protect the public. look at new york racing yesterday with a top race on their program, The Mother Goose Stakes, that race track barely broke a $10 million total handle and had way less than 10,000 people in live attendance. the sport is nothing short of boring these days. fans do not want to watch doped up horses run around race tracks throughout the land and people excel at the sport that cheat.if the US had the same number of tracks Japan has going and raced the same number of days Japan does, they would get similar per card handle and attendance numbers. You can't compare the two.

Now, back to the point I raised.

How are you going to arrest and prosecute a trainer for a drugged horse when you can't prove the trainer actually did the drugging?

[lamboguy]

if the US had the same number of tracks Japan has going and raced the same number of days Japan does, they would get similar per card handle and attendance numbers. You can't compare the two.

Now, back to the point I raised.

How are you going to arrest and prosecute a trainer for a drugged horse when you can't prove the trainer actually did the drugging?http://japanracing.jp/en/jpn-racing/guide/pdf/horseracing_en_all.pdf

as far as i can see, they have a lot of racing dates in japan, with lots of races, and quite a few different racetracks.

the total handle looks like its in the same ballpark as the united states with a smaller total population. the total amount of horses that race there on an annual basis is close to the same as in the united states.

what i learned is that the handle has dropped in japan this decade as well as in this country.

[iceknight]

DRUGS.. is New Mexico doing something good?
I am not sure if this has been posted somewhere else but it's fairly recent article on a recent ruling

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/sports/new-mexico-commission-limits-drug-use-in-horse-racing.html?_r=1&src=recg

[Horseplayersbet.com]

Doesn't look like much has changed over the past 100 years, except they now have tests for some known painkillers and stimulants:
http://colinsghost.org/2012/05/h-g-bedwell-first-triple-crown-trainer-and-a-cheater.html

[VicD]

Trainer Christine Janks writes about cheating and demorphin.

http://www.paulickreport.com/news/ray-s-paddock/trainer-janks-it-s-fraud-and-it-s-a-felony/

Great points.
There doesn't seem to be any outrage from the others that are getting their pockets picked by these lowlife scumbags.
My conclusion is that if you aren't outraged, then you are making a profit from it.

[GARY Z]

I again recommend a possible "fix" to this continual issue:

a: redistribute the purse money to the balance of finishers,presuming the
balance of the field does not test positive.

b: suspend the owner for sixty days or even 90 days, even though he
may not know about the issue.

What will happen?, ugh, the owner(s) will sue the trainer and
that party should disappear from racing.

Yes, you will chase away some owners, but new ones will appear, and maybe even creater larger fields once real security is provided
for the horse,jockey and betting public.

I would also have a plan B /alternate security team doing random samples
of the "A" team for tranparency.

This idea of purse redistribution has already happened in the
standardbred game, ie Lou Pena(Club Med/Yonkers)

[fmolf]

I again recommend a possible "fix" to this continual issue:

a: redistribute the purse money to the balance of finishers,presuming the
balance of the field does not test positive.

b: suspend the owner for sixty days or even 90 days, even though he
may not know about the issue.

What will happen?, ugh, the owner(s) will sue the trainer and
that party should disappear from racing.

Yes, you will chase away some owners, but new ones will appear, and maybe even creater larger fields once real security is provided
for the horse,jockey and betting public.

I would also have a plan B /alternate security team doing random samples
of the "A" team for tranparency.

This idea of purse redistribution has already happened in the
standardbred game, ie Lou Pena(Club Med/Yonkers)
I agree suspend the owner ,the trainer and the horse and see how fast the owners clean up their own sport!What i would like to know is why the so called "clean trainers" the Motions,Motts, and all the rest of them aren't as upset by this as the betting public?Is it more widespread then anyone knows?I sure hope not.

[lamboguy]

the main stuff that is being used on horses these days are not even drugs, its something natural. i had 3 guys trying to sell me this stuff this week. i am getting a brochure on it and will understand more. from what i am told, the more times you give the horse this stuff, the better they run. however if you stop giving it to them, the horses will go backwards. i don't know if you can re-administer this stuff and have them go as fast. all 3 guy's wanted around $400 per vile.

there is no test because it is a natural substance from what i am told. if you don't use this, you are not winning to many races.

more than likely its being used all over the world. so the problem is not singled out in just one continent.

i have never believed that this type of rocket juice exists until the last year and a half. it doesn't say to much for the game in case i am right about this.

this is something completely different than the painkillers and steroids that we know are illegal. its in a class by itself.

[PaceAdvantage]

cobra venom is all natural...what's your point?

[5k-claim]

the main stuff that is being used on horses these days are not even drugs, its something natural. i had 3 guys trying to sell me this stuff this week. i am getting a brochure on it and will understand more. from what i am told, the more times you give the horse this stuff, the better they run. however if you stop giving it to them, the horses will go backwards. i don't know if you can re-administer this stuff and have them go as fast. all 3 guy's wanted around $400 per vile.

there is no test because it is a natural substance from what i am told. if you don't use this, you are not winning to many races.

more than likely its being used all over the world. so the problem is not singled out in just one continent.

i have never believed that this type of rocket juice exists until the last year and a half. it doesn't say to much for the game in case i am right about this.

this is something completely different than the painkillers and steroids that we know are illegal. its in a class by itself.There's a brochure?

On the $400 "main stuff that is being used on horses"?

When you get the brochure, would you be able to scan it and post a copy of it as a public service? I would love to see that.

.

[lamboguy]

There's a brochure?

On the $400 "main stuff that is being used on horses"?

When you get the brochure, would you be able to scan it and post a copy of it as a public service? I would love to see that.

.
i plan on it.

[Horseplayersbet.com]

the main stuff that is being used on horses these days are not even drugs, its something natural. i had 3 guys trying to sell me this stuff this week. i am getting a brochure on it and will understand more. from what i am told, the more times you give the horse this stuff, the better they run. however if you stop giving it to them, the horses will go backwards. i don't know if you can re-administer this stuff and have them go as fast. all 3 guy's wanted around $400 per vile.

there is no test because it is a natural substance from what i am told. if you don't use this, you are not winning to many races.

more than likely its being used all over the world. so the problem is not singled out in just one continent.

i have never believed that this type of rocket juice exists until the last year and a half. it doesn't say to much for the game in case i am right about this.

this is something completely different than the painkillers and steroids that we know are illegal. its in a class by itself.
Could this be what you are talking about? http://www.epoequine.com/
On the surface, it doesn't sound like it should be legal, but apparently it is legal.

Edit: This can't be the stuff you are talking about because it is much cheaper than $400 a vile.

There is a fine line when it comes to what is legal and what isn't...take hyperbaric chambers for instance, a horse gets treated with oxygen should run better than one that doesn't, I would think, and it is an artificial way of improving a horse's oxygen levels.

Where do you draw the line on supplements, etc. when it comes to performance enhancing? It is a very tough question.

[PaceAdvantage]

I told you guys, lambo is a grand weaver of tales. I ain't gonna hold my breath on the brochure ever coming to light on here... :lol:

[lamboguy]

There's a brochure?

On the $400 "main stuff that is being used on horses"?

When you get the brochure, would you be able to scan it and post a copy of it as a public service? I would love to see that.

.
this is one of the places that i heard about. it sounds to me that this is some type of monoclonal anti- body. something that i would never trust giving to a human or an animal.

i am waiting for a brochure to come from Australia, which is supposed to be more
potent stuff.
http://www.tb500.com/

[lamboguy]

this is turning out to be very interesting. you can buy this stuff for $400 per vile, you will need 1 vile per week. i am told that they use this stuff for camel races in the middle east and that they need 2 viles per week for this stuff.

these company's withold the names of the owners and trainers that use this stuff. because of the prohibitive cost of this, you will only see outfits use this product in high purse venues.

the improvements on the horses are very subtle and certain horses will not respond. you can't get a horse to move up on this stuff that has limited ability to start out with. but for the ones that are good, they can and will become better with a full regiment of treatments.

[lamboguy]

i passed this information to a chemist, he is going to get back to me today or tomorrow with the possible effects of this stuff.

from the looks of things it does not sound to good.

the people that stick this stuff in horses are nothing but cruel to these animals and are killing this sport.

[lamboguy]

haven't seen anything like this before. TB500 manipulates equine chemistry on a cellular level. It looks to increase muscle mass by increasing blood flow to the muscle tissue. It appears to do this by stimulating the formation of new blood vessels. According to the information posted on the website, it also reduces inflammation.

There are potentially deadly side effects associated with use. One of the significant long-term risks to unnatural stimulation of new blood vessel formation is that these vessels could feed new cancerous growths throughout the body. In the short term, the increase in muscle mass combined with the anti-inflammatory based weakening of bone would lead to an increased likelihood of breakdowns. It is clear that once a horse stopped receiving TB500 their physical fitness would deteriorate very quickly.

I would be very interested in seeing any specific information about the chemical composition you can get from the salesmen or the company

[5k-claim]

this is one of the places that i heard about. it sounds to me that this is some type of monoclonal anti- body. something that i would never trust giving to a human or an animal.

i am waiting for a brochure to come from Australia, which is supposed to be more
potent stuff.
http://www.tb500.com/Hey, thanks for this link, lamboguy... I will admit that I have never heard of this.

Now I know why those guys walked up to you to sell this and not to me (or anyone else in my barn- I don't think there is a guy within throwing distance of my stalls who could afford $450 per week for 6 weeks... guess the salesmen know that, too!)

I am going to read more about this. Thanks again...

.

[lamboguy]

Hey, thanks for this link, lamboguy... I will admit that I have never heard of this.

Now I know why those guys walked up to you to sell this and not to me (or anyone else in my barn- I don't think there is a guy within throwing distance of my stalls who could afford $450 per week for 6 weeks... guess the salesmen know that, too!)

I am going to read more about this. Thanks again...

.i never heard of the stuff either until the last 2 weeks. i would not advise using this junk even though i am pretty sure it works. when the brochure comes from australia, i will be sure to post it for you. that stuff is supposed to double strength.

[lamboguy]

Could this be what you are talking about? http://www.epoequine.com/
On the surface, it doesn't sound like it should be legal, but apparently it is legal.

Edit: This can't be the stuff you are talking about because it is much cheaper than $400 a vile.

There is a fine line when it comes to what is legal and what isn't...take hyperbaric chambers for instance, a horse gets treated with oxygen should run better than one that doesn't, I would think, and it is an artificial way of improving a horse's oxygen levels.

Where do you draw the line on supplements, etc. when it comes to performance enhancing? It is a very tough question.i never heard of that stuff, but i can tell you i am getting quite an education these days how some big owner's and trainer's are taking down all the money that this sport has to offer, and the ones that don't use this stuff are only finding the scraps on the ground.

as far as drawing the line on performance enhancers, there probably shouldn't be any. i can see this sport is in huge trouble. it has bigger problems than i could have ever imagined.

[WJ47]

I've been handicapping and betting thoroughbreds for over 30 years. I rarely bet now unless it's the Derby or Breeders Cup.

These shady trainers and cheaters really ruin it for horse racing fans. :(

They need a "3 strikes, you're out" rule with these trainers.