Eric Holder: contempt vote?

[DJofSD]

About f'ing time.

[Tom]

One of the Chosen One's Golden boys asked to respect the law.....whouda thunk it?

This liar is going down.

[riskman]

Operation Fast and Furious resulted in scores of people being murdered, shot down with weapons that the government purposely made sure got into the hands of Mexican drug gangs.Yet the government thinks that what Roger Clemens did was much worse and have him on trial for perjury. What a joke!

[Tom]

Yeah, those MLB types are really top priority.

[Mike at A+]

This Clemens circus is a diversion and a huge waste of taxpayer money. Holder on the other hand should do jail time for his involvement in the murder of a US agent and the stonewalling that has become commonplace when Democrats are questioned under oath.

[DJofSD]

Jail was good enough for John Mitchell and Eric Holder should have the same fate. The sooner the better.

[mostpost]

This Clemens circus is a diversion and a huge waste of taxpayer money. Holder on the other hand should do jail time for his involvement in the murder of a US agent and the stonewalling that has become commonplace when Democrats are questioned under oath.

Holder was not involved in the murder of a US agent. That is a ridiculous statement. The agent was shot by a member of a Mexican drug gang. There is zero chance that the gang member would not have had a weapon if he did not have the weapon the feds were keeping track of. Whether Fast and Furious was a good idea is definitely open to debate, but saying Holder was involved in the murder of a US agent is really out there.

As so many of you cons conveniently forget, the genesis of the gun walking program was with the Bush administration (Operation Wide Receiver). In addition the decision to track the guns rather than interdict them appears to have been made not in the original planning sessions, but rather in the Phoenix office of ATF.

[DJofSD]

Holder was not involved in the murder of a US agent. That is a ridiculous statement. The agent was shot by a member of a Mexican drug gang. There is zero chance that the gang member would not have had a weapon if he did not have the weapon the feds were keeping track of. Whether Fast and Furious was a good idea is definitely open to debate, but saying Holder was involved in the murder of a US agent is really out there.

As so many of you cons conveniently forget, the genesis of the gun walking program was with the Bush administration (Operation Wide Receiver). In addition the decision to track the guns rather than interdict them appears to have been made not in the original planning sessions, but rather in the Phoenix office of ATF.
I don't give a flying f*ck if he pulled the trigger or if the roots trace back to Bush.

Holder is stonewalling the committee, he has not been responsive to their demands.

Screw that noise. Contempt is in order. Grow a pair, Congress and do your job.

[Robert Goren]

Why aren't the Bush AGs being called before congress to explain their part in this mess? They started the program. Heaven forbid that a republican be called before this house committee to answer for their follies. If ain't involving somebody from the Obama administration, they aren't interested. Partisan politics at its worse. Holder ended the program and fired a lot of those involved with it. You make a case he should have done that sooner, but the real culprits are the idiots who thought this was a good idea in first place. This congress is not even interested in getting their names on the record.

[FantasticDan]

Look at this pathetic tool. "Hey, he would have had a gun anyway, so who cares."

This raging clown will go to ANY LENGTH to defend ANYONE associated with this administration solely as a result of him being a miserable truck.

Look in the mirror, Postman. You're as pathetic as they come.You're projecting again. Btw, is a miserable truck anything like a bellicose bus? Or a pissy plane? :mad: :lol:

[DJofSD]

Why aren't the Bush AGs being called before congress to explain their part in this mess? They started the program. Heaven forbid that a republican be called before this house committee to answer for their follies. If ain't involving somebody from the Obama administration, they aren't interested. Partisan politics at its worse. Holder ended the program and fired a lot of those involved with it. You make a case he should have done that sooner, but the real culprits are the idiots who thought this was a good idea in first place. This congress is not even interested in getting their names on the record.
You know RG, your ends justify the means thinking has led you astray again.

I started the thread and it was solely about the lack of cooperation and forthrightness on Holders part. I did not mention a thing about Fast and Furious, its history or the politics involved. It is strictly about the hearing and the matter at hand: supplying what was asked for, doing so in a timely manner and being a good citizen when before Congress.

There was not any fault finding, blame shifting, minimizing or rationalization. But yet you come off as the great apologist for Eric. At this point, who cares about the details. That is the job the committee and Congress is attempting to discover. They get around to finding out where the plan went wrong, whether it was a hair brained idea from the inception or if the more recent activities crossed a line.

Stay on point. If you were a marksman, you'd have been told you couldn't even hit the broadside of a barn.

[Robert Goren]

You know RG, your ends justify the means thinking has led you astray again.

I started the thread and it was solely about the lack of cooperation and forthrightness on Holders part. I did not mention a thing about Fast and Furious, its history or the politics involved. It is strictly about the hearing and the matter at hand: supplying what was asked for, doing so in a timely manner and being a good citizen when before Congress.

There was not any fault finding, blame shifting, minimizing or rationalization. But yet you come off as the great apologist for Eric. At this point, who cares about the details. That is the job the committee and Congress is attempting to discover. They get around to finding out where the plan went wrong, whether it was a hair brained idea from the inception or if the more recent activities crossed a line.

Stay on point. If you were a marksman, you'd have been told you couldn't even hit the broadside of a barn.And you come off as somebody that is willing ignore wrong doing if it was done by a republican, you are willing to crucify a democrat for stopping the wrong doing by the republican because he did not stop it it fast enough in your opinion. You are no better that congress. You probably think all idiots that Holder fired for starting this program in first place should get their jobs back. After all since they are republicans, they did nothing wrong. You would rather go after Holder than even have congress make their names public. After all we would want to besmirch the name of a republican, would we? You and congress seemed to be more interested in finding out what Holder knew and when he knew it than in finding out who was actually behind this idiotic program. Of course neither of you has the slightest bit of interest in find out if the revolving door of Bush AGs knew any thing about it. The only one you are interested in is Holder because he is an Obama appointee.

[DJofSD]

Wrong again, bud.

Political affiliations mean nothing to me. If the law has been broken, if there is malfeasance or criminal negligence, string 'em up. Case in point: I think Congress should investigate Christopher Cox -- but that will never happen.

So, go on believing what you will about intent of both myself and Congress. I wouldn't expect anything less.

[bigmack]

And you come off as somebody that is willing ignore wrong doing if it was done by a republican, you are willing to crucify a democrat for stopping the wrong doing by the republican because he did not stop it it fast enough in your opinion. You are no better that congress. You probably think all idiots that Holder fired for starting this program in first place should get their jobs back. After all since they are republicans, they did nothing wrong. You would rather go after Holder than even have congress make their names public. After all we would want to besmirch the name of a republican, would we? You and congress seemed to be more interested in finding out what Holder knew and when he knew it than in finding out who was actually behind this idiotic program. Of course neither of you has the slightest bit of interest in find out if the revolving door of Bush AGs knew any thing about it. The only one you are interested in is Holder because he is an Obama appointee.
Don't forget to call him a racist, like you consider 100% of rural folk in Nebraska. Go tell that to their faces and then post a picture of your pummeled mug afterwards. Now THAT would be a welcome post of yours.

[Robert Goren]

Wrong again, bud.

Political affiliations mean nothing to me. If the law has been broken, if there is malfeasance or criminal negligence, string 'em up. Case in point: I think Congress should investigate Christopher Cox -- but that will never happen.

So, go on believing what you will about intent of both myself and Congress. I wouldn't expect anything less. I just want congress to call Michael Mukasey to find out what he knew and when. Everything congress claims Holder should have known, he should have known too. Of course that will never happen either. I would really like to get the bottom of this. Making Holder the scape goat for what happened is not really enough for me. But that seems to be enough for some. I am really worried that if Romney is elected, he will bring back the people that dreamed up this idea to start with. That is why their names need to be on the public record.

[Robert Goren]

Don't forget to call him a racist, like you consider 100% of rural folk in Nebraska. Go tell that to their faces and then post a picture of your pummeled mug afterwards. Now THAT would be a welcome post of yours. Normally I don't responded to your idiotic remarks. But this case you are so far off the mark I will make a one time exception.
I never said that 100% of the "rural folk in Nebraska" were racist. But a fair number are. Their numbers are dwindling every day thankfully. When I lived in rural Nebraska, I had no problem telling a racist to his face that he was a racist when he made a racist remark. Most of the racists won't even deny it. I was never once was punch in the face. Most "rural folk in Nebraska" don't settle their disagreements by fighting. The main exception to that rule is the meth makers who unfortunately have invaded very small town Nebraska. I avoided them like the plague. I wouldn't think of telling those crazy bastards anything. As usual, you have shown yourself to be completely ignorant about me and the "rural folk in Nebraska". If you would go live for a few months in rural Nebraska, you would lose some of your idiotic views of it. It is obvious that you are as clueless about rural Nebraska as I am about the NHL.

[bigmack]

Normally I don't responded to your idiotic remarks. But this case you are so far off the mark I will make a one time exception.
I never said that 100% of the "rural folk in Nebraska" were racist. But a fair number are. Their numbers are dwindling every day thankfully. When I lived in rural Nebraska, I had no problem telling a racist to his face that he was a racist when he made a racist remark. Most of the racists won't even deny it. I was never once was punch in the face. Most "rural folk in Nebraska" don't settle their disagreements by fighting. The main exception to that rule is the meth makers who unfortunately have invaded very small town Nebraska. I avoided them like the plague. I wouldn't think of telling those crazy bastards anything. As usual, you have shown yourself to be completely ignorant about me and the "rural folk in Nebraska". If you would go live for a few months in rural Nebraska, you would lose some of your idiotic views of it. It is obvious that you are as clueless about rural Nebraska as I am about the NHL.
You are without question the most ignorant person at this joint, and I mean categorically. Your ignorance is astounding in every subject.

FYI - I grew up in Chicago and know very well, life in rural Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota. Is life there much different there than NB? Of course not.

Think about this for a second. You have opinions about things based on your EXTREMELY LIMITED experiences in Lincoln. Once you know that, give thought to expressing said opinions knowing you know nothing. And THAT you can take to the bank. Comprende?

[mostpost]

I started the thread and it was solely about the lack of cooperation and forthrightness on Holders part. I did not mention a thing about Fast and Furious, its history or the politics involved.
You did not mention Fast and Furious. All you said was:
Eric Holder: contempt vote?
About f'ing time.

No links, no explanations, no clue as to what you were talking about. Now I understand that a lot of the righty wackos knew right away, but us normal folk had to look it up.

But now that I know that it was your intention to bring up the lack of cooperation and forthrightness on Holder's part, I can say respectfully; "You're full of crap."

The Justice Department has already turned over 7600 pages of documents. The pages the committee is asking for now are a part of ongoing investigations and prosecutions. Allowing access to them by persons unconnected with the investigation would hinder the investigations and make the evidence collected inadmissable in court.

Darryl Issa does not care about this. He is only interested in grandstanding and destroying Democrats. He is a scumbag of the first order.

The Republicans have found nothing from the 7600 pages of documents. Holder has testified several times. They found nothing from that testimony or the testimony of other officials. Fast and Furious was not approved by Holder, it was not approved by the White House. They shut it down. They disciplined those responsible. All that Congressman scumbag is doing now is throwing out nets hoping to catch a fish. And of course playing to his gullible, not too intelligent base.

[bigmack]

I wonder if anyone can figure Mosty is playing the same game Holder is with this 7600 cherry picked document crap? You mean they found nothing in 7600 documents? Well I guess, case closed. :lol:

We're talking about contempt & perjury from the highest law officer in the country.

Regarding the undisclosed documents being part of an ongoing investigation, let's sit back and watch if Mosty has ANY level of honesty and see if he can Google the fact that Congress offered to keep everything under seal, so as not to hinder any ongoing investigations.

I'll use this one example to illustrate the complete dishonesty in debate, Mosty brings. OR, he could revisit this thread and admit he didn't bother to look any further than spouting Demo talking points, like the tool he is.

[mostpost]

I wonder if anyone can figure Mosty is playing the same game Holder is with this 7600 cherry picked document crap? You mean they found nothing in 7600 documents? Well I guess, case closed. :lol:

We're talking about contempt & perjury from the highest law officer in the country.

Regarding the undisclosed documents being part of an ongoing investigation, let's sit back and watch if Mosty has ANY level of honesty and see if he can Google the fact that Congress offered to keep everything under seal, so as not to hinder any ongoing investigations.

I'll use this one example to illustrate the complete dishonesty in debate, Mosty brings. OR, he could revisit this thread and admit he didn't bother to look any further than spouting Demo talking points, like the tool he is.

I didn't know that Congress had agreed to keep the documents under seal. That is I did not have direct knowledge of the fact, but I did consider it. This is why I rejected that as a reason to give up the documents. First of all, leaks happen. Second, if the documents are under seal and remain under seal, then how are we know if anyone is telling the truth about what they contain. Issa can make up anything. His reputation for truthfulness is not exactly stellar.

[Robert Goren]

You are without question the most ignorant person at this joint, and I mean categorically. Your ignorance is astounding in every subject.

FYI - I grew up in Chicago and know very well, life in rural Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota. Is life there much different there than NB? Of course not.

Think about this for a second. You have opinions about things based on your EXTREMELY LIMITED experiences in Lincoln. Once you know that, give thought to expressing said opinions knowing you know nothing. And THAT you can take to the bank. Comprende?So how does grow up in Chicago make you an expert on people that live a town of 1000 people in Nebraska. That would be like me say I knew about people who live NYC because I grew up a 150 miles from Omaha. You haven't a clue about rural life. I moved to Lincoln in 1987. Up until that time I either lived a small town or on a farm except for the 3 years I spent UNL in the late 60s. I have my doubts whether you even know what a milo plant even looks like. You probably once saw a corn field while driving down the interstate, so you consider yourself an expert on farming and rural life. You are one who claims to be expert on everyone and everything. I have followed politics most of my adult life, so I know something about politicians. I have dealt with the local ones as part of my old job. One of the ones I dealt with was the former mayor of Lincoln who went on to be Governor, Ag secretary for GWB and is now a US senator. So I know something about them. I got a feeling the closest you ever come to dealing with a politician is posting on this site. You certainly don't have clue about how they operate or at least, not about the ones I had to deal with. You seem to take cues from right wing bloggers who haven't left their mother's basement in years or fried their brain with years of drug and alcohol abuse.
One other thing, the abbreviation for Nebraska is NE. NB is I believe some place in Canada, but I am not sure. You can't even get something as simple as that correct.

[bigmack]

One other thing, the abbreviation for Nebraska is NE. NB is I believe some place in Canada, but I am not sure. You can't even get something as simple as that correct.
I appreciate you calling that to my attention. Unlike some, I welcome any corrections to things I'm doing incorrectly. Somehow, without getting pissed, I figure I just got a bit brighter.

I hadn't realized you lived in a town of 1000. That alone, sums it up and I apologize for being so hard on you. Without going into pacifics, TRUST ME, I know what life is like in sparsely populated areas.

I worked on the Dole campaign. Look how that tuned out.

All the best. :ThmbUp:

[Tom]

Why aren't the Bush AGs being called before congress to explain their part in this mess?

Because they aren't the ones who lost track of the guns that ended up in the cartel's hands and used to commit murder, and they are not the ones who have been caught in lies about who knew what and when.

That's why.

When and if evidence points to them for something specific, I would expect them to be called upon to testify. So far, the evidence points elsewhere.

You remember when you and Eams would narrow down the suspects and not interview everyone, just those who evidence pointed to?

[DJofSD]

You did not mention Fast and Furious. All you said was:
Eric Holder: contempt vote?
About f'ing time.

No links, no explanations, no clue as to what you were talking about. Now I understand that a lot of the righty wackos knew right away, but us normal folk had to look it up.



Are you complaining that you had to do a little thinking after reading my initial message? Must be educated at the public schools. Sorry I didn't preserve your self esteem.


But now that I know that it was your intention to bring up the lack of cooperation and forthrightness on Holder's part, I can say respectfully; "You're full of crap."

The Justice Department has already turned over 7600 pages of documents. The pages the committee is asking for now are a part of ongoing investigations and prosecutions. Allowing access to them by persons unconnected with the investigation would hinder the investigations and make the evidence collected inadmissable in court.



7,600 plus pages of documents does not prove intent, either way. The only crap seems to be what Holder is providing. If the 7,600 plus pages were to satisfy the committee, I'd say he was being cooperative but since they've asked for more, he's either provided them with crap or he's be uncooperative.


Darryl Issa does not care about this. He is only interested in grandstanding and destroying Democrats. He is a scumbag of the first order.
Prima facie: Issa is doing his job. If the way he is going about it or the object of the investigation bothers you, too bad.



The Republicans have found nothing from the 7600 pages of documents. Holder has testified several times. They found nothing from that testimony or the testimony of other officials. Fast and Furious was not approved by Holder, it was not approved by the White House. They shut it down. They disciplined those responsible. All that Congressman scumbag is doing now is throwing out nets hoping to catch a fish. And of course playing to his gullible, not too intelligent base.
Oh, so in other words, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain?

If all that was said to have been done was right and proper then be more forthcoming, show the committee what was done and provide the information so they can perform their duty. This is suppose to be a government of checks and balances, and, like it or not, this is one of those checks.

Or, IOW, trust but verify. But unfortunately, Holder acts like some one that can't be trusted.

[Robert Goren]

Because they aren't the ones who lost track of the guns that ended up in the cartel's hands and used to commit murder, and they are not the ones who have been caught in lies about who knew what and when.

That's why.

When and if evidence points to them for something specific, I would expect them to be called upon to testify. So far, the evidence points elsewhere.

You remember when you and Eams would narrow down the suspects and not interview everyone, just those who evidence pointed to?Actually they lost track of over 300 guns.

[Tom]

But not the one that killed the guy.
No matter how you cut it, it was a stupid idea carried out badly.
Hang everyone involved in it.

[Valuist]

Limit politicians to two terms: one in office and one in jail.

In Illinois, the first thing they do when a new governor takes office is fit him for the stripped jumpsuit. Jon Corzine may get to find out that feeling soon.

[mostpost]

Are you complaining that you had to do a little thinking after reading my initial message? Must be educated at the public schools. Sorry I didn't preserve your self esteem.
No, I am complaining that you did no work in presenting your initial message. If you are going to criticize Holder for not complying with a congressional subpoena, then say you are criticizing Holder for not complying with a congressional subpoena and tell us which subpoena you are referring to.



7,600 plus pages of documents does not prove intent, either way. The only crap seems to be what Holder is providing. If the 7,600 plus pages were to satisfy the committee, I'd say he was being cooperative but since they've asked for more, he's either provided them with crap or he's be uncooperative.
There is a third option. Holder was cooperative and he provided the committee with good information, but Issa is grandstanding and pursuing a scorched earth policy towards the Obama administration. Among A, B and C, C is the most likely answer.

Prima facie: Issa is doing his job. If the way he is going about it or the object of the investigation bothers you, too bad.
Issa is indeed doing his job. And his job, as he perceives it, and as he has stated publicly, is to investigate every action of the Obama administration for wrongdoing, whether there is evidence or not.


Oh, so in other words, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain?

If all that was said to have been done was right and proper then be more forthcoming, show the committee what was done and provide the information so they can perform their duty. This is suppose to be a government of checks and balances, and, like it or not, this is one of those checks.

Or, IOW, trust but verify. But unfortunately, Holder acts like some one that can't be trusted.
While reading the Wikipedia article on this Ifound footnote #57 which included copies of some of the documents already in the possession of the committee. They were heavily redacted, yet from the context it appeared that they contained information that would prove one way or another when Holder knew about F & F. We can not see those portions, but Issa can. Prove to me that they do not contain proof the Holder did not know about the details of the operation until it was exposed in the press. Prove to me that Issa did not know that Holder did not know and is just playing politics with all of this.

[DJofSD]

While reading the Wikipedia article on this Ifound footnote #57 which included copies of some of the documents already in the possession of the committee. They were heavily redacted, yet from the context it appeared that they contained information that would prove one way or another when Holder knew about F & F. We can not see those portions, but Issa can. Prove to me that they do not contain proof the Holder did not know about the details of the operation until it was exposed in the press. Prove to me that Issa did not know that Holder did not know and is just playing politics with all of this.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

You are asking me to prove intent. Neither of us can do that.

You have choosen to interpret events as politics as usual. I do not necessarily disagree there is some element of politics involved -- it's the nature of the beast -- however, the setting requires, no, demands each party to perform in to a specific standard. If Holder does not meet that standard then he's in contempt.

[bigmack]

Prove to me that they do not contain proof the Holder did not know about the details of the operation until it was exposed in the press. Prove to me that Issa did not know that Holder did not know and is just playing politics with all of this.
Who the F are you that anyone needs to prove anything to? The parents of Brian Terry far outweigh a rube like you spouting rubbish you hear on BigEd's show.

Holder is a political hack who will soon be gone. Your vilification of Issa is yet another ugly page you tear from your comrades at MSLSD.

You choose not to dig further into this affair and take 7600 cherry picked documents from over 100,000 as meaningful. That is true to your form. The smug Holder will go down in flames, irrespective your inept defense for all things Obama related.

[Saratoga_Mike]

President Obama has granted an 11th-hour request by Attorney General Eric Holder to exert executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents, a last-minute maneuver that appears unlikely to head off a contempt vote against Holder by Republicans in the House. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is expected to forge ahead with its meeting on the contempt resolution anyway.

Wow, this can't be good....what is Obama thinking? Unless his own fingerprints are on this (not likely), he should throw Holder under the bus.

[Robert Goren]

President Obama has granted an 11th-hour request by Attorney General Eric Holder to exert executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents, a last-minute maneuver that appears unlikely to head off a contempt vote against Holder by Republicans in the House. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is expected to forge ahead with its meeting on the contempt resolution anyway.

Wow, this can't be good....what is Obama thinking? Unless his own fingerprints are on this (not likely), he should throw Holder under the bus.Congress is determined to waste more tax player money on this. You would think they would have learned something from Clemens verdict.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Congress is determined to waste more tax player money on this. You would think they would have learned something from Clemens verdict.

On the Clemens case, we agree. However, investigating this very serious matter is entirely different. I always thought Holder was incompetent, but until recently I thought he was basically honest. It really looks like he lied to Congress. There's a Nixonian flavor to this whole thing.

[bigmack]

Congress is determined to waste more tax player money on this. You would think they would have learned something from Clemens verdict.
What a royal hypocrite. You and your ilk continually talk about the 'little guy' and here we have a dead American and you consider it wasted money to get to the bottom and have answers for a family who lost their son by an arrogant AG and now by a Pres who has invoked executive privilege where it doesn't apply.

The chips will fall on this one. The truth will come out for the Terry family and jokes like you & Mosty will be exposed for the fools you are.

[lsbets]

I love this place. I go away for a few days, come back, and its like I didn't miss anything. Same arguments, different topic. Its good to have some things be consistent in life. :ThmbUp:

[Robert Goren]

Does anybody really believe that Brian Terry would be alive today if there had been no Fast and Furious? To believe that you have to believe it was the only source of guns for the Mexican gangs. I think we all know that isn't true. They able to get all the guns they want anytime they want them because they the money to pay for them.
This was a stupid program that started under GWB. It should have never been started. It should have been stopped when Holder came in, but for whatever reason it wasn't. Holder did eventually stop it. I have seen nothing from congress to lead me to believe they want to get the bottom of who started it and who gave gave the green light to it. They just want Holder's hide. I would support a full investigation into it, but they aren't going to look at the whole thing, so what's the point? Congress is willing to give the people who dreamed up the idea a pass. I have yet to hear one republican congressman say he wanted to know whose idea it was or how it was started. Until I do, I will consider it nothing more than a witch hunt.

[TJDave]

What's ironic is that in less than a month Mexico elects a new president who will make a truce with the drug cartels, effectively nullifying the previous government's efforts.

50,000 + people (including agent Terry) died for nada.

[Robert Goren]

What a royal hypocrite. You and your ilk continually talk about the 'little guy' and here we have a dead American and you consider it wasted money to get to the bottom and have answers for a family who lost their son by an arrogant AG and now by a Pres who has invoked executive privilege where it doesn't apply.

The chips will fall on this one. The truth will come out for the Terry family and jokes like you & Mosty will be exposed for the fools you are.Don't you think the Terry family should know who the idiot was who started the program? Congress doesn't seem to be interested in that answer.

[Tom]

Don't you think the Terry family should know who the idiot was who started the program? Congress doesn't seem to be interested in that answer.

It makes more sense to know who screwed it up, not who started it.
Obama was against executive privilege when Bush fired some attorneys, but now we have a dead body on his watch and EP is fine and dandy.

[bigmack]

Don't you think the Terry family should know who the idiot was who started the program? Congress doesn't seem to be interested in that answer.
How do you expect anyone to conduct a serious debate with you when you're continually ill-informed?

Under Bush a program was called Wide Receiver - A totally different program conducted with the involvement of the Mexican government.

The key differences are that Operation Wide Receiver tracked the firearms that were “walked” into Mexico, and the operation was carried out in conjunction with Mexican authorities. With Operation Fast and Furious, on the other hand, there was no effort made to track the weapons once they “walked” across the border, and the US government never informed the Mexicans of the operation.

[Robert Goren]

How do you expect anyone to conduct a serious debate with you when you're continually ill-informed?

Under Bush a program was called Wide Receiver - A totally different program conducted with the involvement of the Mexican government.

The key differences are that Operation Wide Receiver tracked the firearms that were “walked” into Mexico, and the operation was carried out in conjunction with Mexican authorities. With Operation Fast and Furious, on the other hand, there was no effort made to track the weapons once they “walked” across the border, and the US government never informed the Mexicans of the operation.Operation Wide Reciever reportedly lost track of over 300 guns. It was just luck of the draw that Agent Terry was killed by a F&F gun instead of a WR gun. Somehow dealing with drug cartel bought off Mexican authorities makes it a good idea. You must smoking some that Mexican weed, if you think that.

[bigmack]

Operation Wide Reciever reportedly lost track of over 300 guns. It was just luck of the draw that Agent Terry was killed by a F&F gun instead of a WR gun. Somehow dealing with drug cartel bought off Mexican authorities makes it a good idea. You must smoking some that Mexican weed, if you think that.
Goren says "nothing to see here." Go home everybody, the genius has spoken. :lol:

[ArlJim78]

I have to laugh at the hypocrisy of the invoking of executive privilege.
this regime will leak any and all classified intelligence information if in their estimation it makes Obama look like the drone warrior or Commander gutsy call, basically a political calculation without regard to ongoing national security implications.

but for this one they figure they better hold on pretty tight to those files for some reason.:rolleyes:

[DJofSD]

Time to draft articles of impeachment.

[rastajenk]

I'd agree, but it would sure seems racist. To some.

[bigmack]

I'd agree, but it would sure seems racist. To some.
To which part of him, black or white?

[DJofSD]

To which part of him, black or white?
Cue Frank Gorshin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_That_Be_Your_Last_Battlefield)

The people have the right to know if their president is a crook.

[ArlJim78]

the committee voted 23-17 to hold Holder in contempt of congress.
Now on to the house to make it official.

[FantasticDan]

The votes were sharply divided along partisan lines with all Republicans voting for and all Democrats voting against contempt.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[ArlJim78]

Dan did you really expect any Democrats to do the right thing?

[bigmack]

all Democrats voting against contempt.
Looks like this guy is a liar.

uPvmH58N2ic

[Tom]

Looks like this guy is a liar.

What was you first clue?
His lips were moving? :lol: :lol:

[Tom]

Cue Frank Gorshin. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_That_Be_Your_Last_Battlefield)

The people have the right to know if their president is a crook.

I'm waiting for the Nixon wave to come back! :D

[dartman51]

Eric Holder sends a 9 page letter to his buddy Obama, pleading with him to invoke 'EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE' to protect him. And Obama, being the smart one, that he is, does just that. I guess he forgot about the ruling on Nixon. SC ruled 9-0, that you can't use executive privilege in the case of a cover up. If Holder is so innocent, what is he hiding. :confused:

[mostpost]

Eric Holder sends a 9 page letter to his buddy Obama, pleading with him to invoke 'EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE' to protect him. And Obama, being the smart one, that he is, does just that. I guess he forgot about the ruling on Nixon. SC ruled 9-0, that you can't use executive privilege in the case of a cover up. If Holder is so innocent, what is he hiding. :confused:
Precisely what is it that you think they are covering up. There is no doubt that there was an operation Fast and Furious. No one is denying that. There is no doubt there was a federal agent killed by someone using one of the guns involved. No one is denying that. (By the way, anyone who thinks the bad guy involved would not have had a gun if he hadn't gotten it through F&F is crazy.)

The only dispute is over when Holder learned of the program, which is about as important as one of Boxcar's posts on evolution. The program originated in the Phoenix office of ATF in 2005. Apparently everyone thought it was a great idea as long as Bush was in office. Then, suddenly when something goes wrong, the Republicans never heard of the earlier program and blame everything on the Democrats.

[newtothegame]

Precisely what is it that you think they are covering up. There is no doubt that there was an operation Fast and Furious. No one is denying that. There is no doubt there was a federal agent killed by someone using one of the guns involved. No one is denying that. (By the way, anyone who thinks the bad guy involved would not have had a gun if he hadn't gotten it through F&F is crazy.)

The only dispute is over when Holder learned of the program, which is about as important as one of Boxcar's posts on evolution. The program originated in the Phoenix office of ATF in 2005. Apparently everyone thought it was a great idea as long as Bush was in office. Then, suddenly when something goes wrong, the Republicans never heard of the earlier program and blame everything on the Democrats.
So, mosty, why then if there is NOTHING to see here would a president use executive priveledge?
I mean after all, in your words, the only dispute is when Holder may of learned of the program right? No damning emails that would prove anything else...right?
Yeah I can see how that would warrant exec privy....lol

[mostpost]

Eric Holder sends a 9 page letter to his buddy Obama, pleading with him to invoke 'EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE' to protect him. And Obama, being the smart one, that he is, does just that. I guess he forgot about the ruling on Nixon. SC ruled 9-0, that you can't use executive privilege in the case of a cover up. If Holder is so innocent, what is he hiding. :confused:
That is not what they ruled. They ruled that the executive does not have a general, all inclusive right to privilege. They ruled that when the Attorney General acting on the authority of the President, created a Special Prosecutor he gave that prosecutor powers that could not be taken away. Among those powers was the right to subpoena materials necessary to the prosecution of the case. Then they ruled that whatever privilege a President might have did not extend to refusing deliver specific materials relevant to a criminal investigation. The SC ordered that the materials be delivered "In Camera" for examination by the district court and that all non-relevant material or material that would harm national security be edited out. One of the points the decision made was that a subpoena should be issued as a fishing expedition. It had to be specific as to content and intent.

So how does the situation now differ from that in 1974?
1. In 1974 the dispute was between two parts of the Executive Branch; the White House and the special prosecutor. Today the dispute is between the Executive Branch and the Legislative Branch. The doctrine of separation of powers applies here.

2. In 1974 there were specific criminal acts that were being investigated and the subpoenas were for very specific tapes involving conversations between specific individuals. Today we have allegations that Holder may have known about the F&F program earlier than he first stated to Congress. Even if he did, does that mean that he lied? He may have known of the program in general earlier, but was responding to specific questions during his Congressional testimony.

3. In 1974 the Special Prosecutor knew what he was looking for and requested it. Today Issa is asking for everything and hoping to find something-the exact fishing expedition that the Berger court warned against in 1974.

BTW the ruling was not 9-0. It was 8-0. Rehnquist recused himself because of prior ties to the administration. If only Justices Scalia and Thomas were so honorable. :rolleyes:

[plainolebill]

Obushma

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/plainolebill/OBUSHMA.jpg

[bigmack]

This story has been going on for a year & a half. It's a fairly big deal. Guess how much press coverage it's received on the NBC Nightly News? Once for 12 seconds.

[rastajenk]

Congress is determined to waste more tax player money on this. You would think they would have learned something from Clemens verdict.If it's OK to lie to Congress, what good is any Congressional hearing or investigation?

[Tom]

We have to investigate this, mostie.....what if it turns out Holder used steroids? :eek:

[sammy the sage]

Obushma

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/plainolebill/OBUSHMA.jpg

This is WHAT they're going TO FIND out...the pugs are going to end up EXPOSING one of THEIR own... :rolleyes:

You know what's f'gn hiliarious...actually downright sickening....Obushma has BEEN further right than ANY pug almost in REGARDS to military spending... :faint:

[DJofSD]

The only dispute is over when Holder learned of the program, which is about as important as one of Boxcar's posts on evolution.

To paraphrase a statement from the past, what did Holder know and when did he know it?

[Mike at A+]

You gotta love all the spinmeisters out in force yesterday noting the number of times that past presidents have used executive privilege. Stupid people won't see past the raw numbers and react that Bush, Reagan, Clinton etc. did it multiple times while this is only the first time their "chosen one" has used it. What they fail to note is the REASONS why it was used in the past and 0bama's reason is really weak. Holder will eventually get thrown under the bus by 0bama but it won't happen until he becomes a bigger liability (when 0bama's poll numbers get low enough). Between now and then, look for more Roger Clemens like distractions to keep the wide eyed KoolAid drinkers entertained with non-issues, conspiracies and MSNBM talking points. Speaking of which, they were playing the Egypt nonsense yesterday while the Holder hearings were going on. Mubarik is so yesterday. :D

[Saratoga_Mike]

The only dispute is over when Holder learned of the program, which is about as important as one of Boxcar's posts on evolution. The program originated in the Phoenix office of ATF in 2005. Apparently everyone thought it was a great idea as long as Bush was in office. Then, suddenly when something goes wrong, the Republicans never heard of the earlier program and blame everything on the Democrats.

Did you support the prosecution of Scooter Libbey? I actually did. See, you can't lie to FBI agents or Congress. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Oh yeah, Holder's a Dem.

[ArlJim78]

executive privilege is not supposed to be used to cover up your lies.

[ArlJim78]

Did you support the prosecution of Scooter Libbey? I actually did. See, you can't lie to FBI agents or Congress. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Oh yeah, Holder's a Dem.
thats a good example, I thought it was petty because he wasn't the leaker but the fact is he did mislead or lie to investigators.

[Saratoga_Mike]

thats a good example, I thought it was petty because he wasn't the leaker but the fact is he did mislead or lie to investigators.

I'm thinking Most supported the prosecution of Libbey, but I won't do a search. We can wait for him to come on and explain how the two cases are entirely different. And that I'm an idiot for thinking otherwise.

[boxcar]

executive privilege is not supposed to be used to cover up your lies.

That's correct. And the courts have ruled on this more than once.

For a president who said he knew nothing about Fast and Furious and only learned about it for the first time on some TV news broadcast and he also claimed that Holder had no knowledge :rolleyes: :rolleyes: , then one is led to wonder what the Executive Privilege thingy is all about? Why was it necessary to invoke it? What does he have to hide, if there's nothing to hide?

Boxcar

[Tom]

Those emails have been stapled to his college records and filed away with his real birth certificate.

Obama has a real problem with documents. :rolleyes:

[mostpost]

So, mosty, why then if there is NOTHING to see here would a president use executive priveledge?
I mean after all, in your words, the only dispute is when Holder may of learned of the program right? No damning emails that would prove anything else...right?
Yeah I can see how that would warrant exec privy....lol

So tell me what you think they are going to prove. Why do you think that? Has there been testimony that indicates there is something damning in the e-mails or is Issa just looking for them so he can prolong his little drama. Do you believe that Holder knew from the beginning that F&F involved allowing weapons to go to drug cartels? The evidence shows otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][28][29] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[30

The overall program was developed in Washington DC, but the specific tactic of "gunwalking was initiated and carried out in the Phoenix offices of ATF. When objections to the program were voiced by agents in the field they were quashed at the local level.

Basically you ae arguing that Holder should have known of the tactics being employed at the local level. That is like saying that the CEO of Ford should know that the mechanic at your local dealer is doing unnecessary repair work.

[boxcar]

So tell me what you think they are going to prove. Why do you think that? Has there been testimony that indicates there is something damning in the e-mails or is Issa just looking for them so he can prolong his little drama. Do you believe that Holder knew from the beginning that F&F involved allowing weapons to go to drug cartels? The evidence shows otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal


The overall program was developed in Washington DC, but the specific tactic of "gunwalking was initiated and carried out in the Phoenix offices of ATF. When objections to the program were voiced by agents in the field they were quashed at the local level.

Basically you ae arguing that Holder should have known of the tactics being employed at the local level. That is like saying that the CEO of Ford should know that the mechanic at your local dealer is doing unnecessary repair work.

You're talking about that cherry-picked evidence that was provided to congressional committee, right?

Boxcar

[newtothegame]

So tell me what you think they are going to prove. Why do you think that? Has there been testimony that indicates there is something damning in the e-mails or is Issa just looking for them so he can prolong his little drama. Do you believe that Holder knew from the beginning that F&F involved allowing weapons to go to drug cartels? The evidence shows otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal


The overall program was developed in Washington DC, but the specific tactic of "gunwalking was initiated and carried out in the Phoenix offices of ATF. When objections to the program were voiced by agents in the field they were quashed at the local level.

Basically you ae arguing that Holder should have known of the tactics being employed at the local level. That is like saying that the CEO of Ford should know that the mechanic at your local dealer is doing unnecessary repair work.

You really are priceless...lol If I knew what they were going to find, Issa and the rest of congress wouldnt need to see the documents.
Next, which you failed to address, if there was NOTHING there, why would the president use EXECUTIVE PRIVELEDGE to protect those documents???
Lastly, someone who claims to be edumecated (lol) should NEVER use wikipedia as a site for information to make a claim. I am sure even you know wiki sites can be changed.......lol

[lsbets]

Basically you ae arguing that Holder should have known of the tactics being employed at the local level. That is like saying that the CEO of Ford should know that the mechanic at your local dealer is doing unnecessary repair work.

This from the guy who says Obama "oversaw" the operation that killed Bin Laden.

[fast4522]

Lets see .... EXECUTIVE PRIVELEDGE, ah right was anyone ever killed in Watergate?

In Mostie's mass expanse of a brain Fast and Furious is just small potatoes.

We as a people have to put the trash out this November, and write every member of the United States Congress that we want prison sentences handed out for principals involved in the Fast and Furious.

[bigmack]

Take a guess what Holder said to Issa during the 20 minute meeting? If we hand over this material, it is going to be very embarrassing. As disclosed by Issa to G.V. Susteren.

Let's put Mosty, Goren & Brian Terry (a name, White House Press Sec. Jay "Frat Boy" Carney couldn't even remember) 's mother in room together so they can tell her the Mexican banditos would have had a gun anyway, so move on.

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Josephine_Terry_1-553x350.jpg

[BlueShoe]

Darryl Issa does not care about this. He is only interested in grandstanding and destroying Democrats. He is a scumbag of the first order.
Congressman Darryl Issa R-CA has conducted himself with dignity and decorum all through the proceedings and has exercised the utmost respect and protocol toward AG Holder. Even had there been no F&F, no inquiry of any kind, Holder's performance in his office has been atrocious and would still warrant his removal.

[TJDave]

Let's put Mosty, Goren & Brian Terry (a name, White House Press Sec. Jay "Frat Boy" Carney couldn't even remember) 's mother in room together so they can tell her the Mexican banditos would have had a gun anyway, so move on.


If I were Brian Terry's mother the question I would have is, "WTF was my son doing in Mexico?"

[iceknight]

As so many of you cons conveniently forget, the genesis of the gun walking program was with the Bush administration (Operation Wide Receiver). In addition the decision to track the guns rather than interdict them appears to have been made not in the original planning sessions, but rather in the Phoenix office of ATF. Look this bringing in "bush" is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. I support Democrats on most policies, but seriously if "bush admin" did something wrong, the new administration had along time to shut it down or fix it. So continuing on with something that can characterized as "wrong" and trying to push the blame on previous administration is just NOT RIGHT. That is the end of the discussion in trying to push blame. Just take responsibility.

[bigmack]

If I were Brian Terry's mother the question I would have is, "WTF was my son doing in Mexico?"
Then I have to ask you if you would consider "10 miles North of the US/Mexico border" US soil?

North is up. :rolleyes:

[TJDave]

He wasn't shot near Monterrey?

Then what were those guys doing down there?

And weren't they shot with F&F weapons, also?

[bigmack]

He wasn't shot near Monterrey?
You're referring to this story:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704343404576146890723519596.html

[boxcar]

1995 Video of Eric Holder: We Must ‘Brainwash’ People Against Guns


New video of Eric Holder from 1995 has surfaced, and it may put “Fast and Furious” in a much broader perspective.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/holder-in-1995-we-must-brainwash-people-against-guns/

I have never doubted that the real goal to Fast & Furious was to use it as tool to convince Americans that our gun laws are far too lax and, therefore, much tighter controls are needed.

Boxcar

[bigmack]

We got an official race card thrown today. Rev.Al cranked it up over the weekend and was joined by some Black caucus members in a press confab.

Said IT'S CLEAR racism is part of the decision to go after HoldEr.

Clear to who you might ask.

[TJDave]

We got an official race card thrown today. Rev.Al cranked it up over the weekend and was joined by some Black caucus members in a press confab.

Said IT'S CLEAR racism is part of the decision to go after HoldEr.

Clear to who you might ask.

The Reverend is rallying his troops in preparation for November. Although it would probably be more advantageous if Obama could find some Latino to take the fall.

Where's Alberto Gonzalez when you need him?

[Tom]

We got an official race card thrown today. Rev.Al cranked it up over the weekend and was joined by some Black caucus members in a press confab.

Said IT'S CLEAR racism is part of the decision to go after HoldEr.

Clear to who you might ask.

Where does a JOKER like Jessie get all those race cards?

[bigmack]

Initial blush looks like 25+ Dim's voting for contempt. Congressional Black Caucus to walk off house floor. :D

After not covering the story for over a year & a half, NBC is ALL OVER this being a race caper. Some things never change.

I don't know how some people sleep at night.

Proud Mother: And here's my son. He's a Vice President for NBC News, where they do honest, important work. What a laugh.

Tools.

[Greyfox]

Look this bringing in "bush" is COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS. I support Democrats on most policies, but seriously if "bush admin" did something wrong, the new administration had along time to shut it down or fix it. .

I agree. :ThmbUp:
The Bush administration sent 100 guns to Mexico and then folded the program when Mexican officials weren't cooperating.

The Obama administration started a second program - "Fast and Furious."
It sent 2500 guns to the Mexicans with no means of tracing them.
Hundreds of people were killed including an American Border guard.
Someone has to be accountable.
Holder was minding the ship for this project and he was reporting to Obama.
Both carry guilt in this fiasco.

[boxcar]

I agree. :ThmbUp:
The Bush administration sent 100 guns to Mexico and then folded the program when Mexican officials weren't cooperating.

The Obama administration started a second program - "Fast and Furious."
It sent 2500 guns to the Mexicans with no means of tracing them.
Hundreds of people were killed including an American Border guard.
Someone has to be accountable.
Holder was minding the ship for this project and he was reporting to Obama.
Both carry guilt in this fiasco.

Actually, there were two agents killed (I believe) and hundreds of Mexicans. (This administration has more blood on its hands.) This is a HUGE scandal -- far bigger than a little break-in at Watergate, yet the Lamestream media is doing all it can to play it down.

The Republican attack dogs (not necessarily Romney either) should be all over this one like white on rice, demanding that Obama come clean.

The Black Caucus walk-out is very predictable. They're all a bunch of racists who see everything by color instead of by substance and issue. Everything to them is measured by the color of a person's skin. :ThmbDown: :ThmbDown:

Boxcar

[Tom]

The Obama administration started a second program - "Fast and Furious."

Turned out to more like Dumb and Dumber! :D

[BlueShoe]

More insight from Ann Coulter. Have a hunch that somewhere in DC the shredders are working 24/7.
www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-06-27.html#read_more (http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2012-06-27.html#read_more)

[Tom]

You know they are destroying all the evidence.
You know they are guilty as hell in this thing.
These liars make Nixon look like a choir boy.

HOLDER LIED, PEOPLE DIED.


We gotta get this chant going everywhere......every-frigging-where...

[DJofSD]

http://oversight.house.gov/release/doj-inspector-general-to-testify-next-week-following-release-of-investigative-report-on-operation-fast-and-furious/

I expect from this regime yet another example of lies, half-truths and newspeak.

[DJofSD]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2012/sep/19/picket-issa-responds-igs-fast-furious-report-ig-ho/

[Tom]

Holder Lied, People Died.

Bumper stickers, lawn signs, radio spots.....THIS is your president's team in action. THIS is Barack Obama's legacy.

[PaceAdvantage]

Holder cleared of any knowledge, which is a pretty appropriate headline when you think about it... :lol:

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/09/19/13966068-investigation-finds-no-evidence-ag-eric-holder-knew-of-fast-and-furious-gun-running-sting?lite&ocid=msnhp

[Tom]

Shades of Yogi Berra! :D

[DJofSD]

Horowitz: (law enforcement) failed in it's primary duty which is to protect the public.

[ArlJim78]

Holders investigation clears Holder?
shades of Chief Clancy Wiggum

[Tom]

He can't do that to himself, can he?

[DJofSD]

Holders investigation clears Holder?
shades of Chief Clancy Wiggum
Yes, it does appear Holder will skate as far as the gun running goes.

However, as to the original topic of the thread, he has not.

More to come from the committee, let there be no doubt.