Europe -- whose fault?

[highnote]

Are the European economic problems the fault of Bush, Obama, neither or both?

[badcompany]

Neither. The initial criticism of the Euro Union, that a monetary union without a fiscal union won't work, has proven correct.

You have a situation, now, where the weaker countries, the PIIGS, have a currency that's way overvalued and the stonger countries, Germany and to a lesser extent France, have an undervalued currency.

[highnote]

Neither. The initial criticism of the Euro Union, that a monetary union without a fiscal union won't work, has proven correct.

You have a situation, now, where the weaker countries, the PIIGS, have a currency that's way overvalued and the stonger countries, Germany and to a lesser extent France, have an undervalued currency.


Can you vote in the poll? It would be interesting to see the results.

[JustRalph]

Why in hell would it be Bush's fault?

Christ! I guess the Dinosaurs passing would be his fault too?

[lamboguy]

why blame any president in this country on this one?

a better list would have been to put up all the large banks throughout the world, and figure out who ruined this world more!

as far as presidents go,we have all very weak ones. it takes to much money to get them elected. they have to many favors to repay once they get in.


in my life i have been governed by 3 really great presidents, TRUMAN, EISENHOWER, and KENNEDY. its been straight downhill since then. i felt that those 3 guys had my best interest's at heart and they treated the office as an honor to serve, not their right.

[highnote]

Why in hell would it be Bush's fault?

Christ! I guess the Dinosaurs passing would be his fault too?


I don't know why it would be, but it's an opinion poll. Maybe some people think it is his fault, or Obama's fault, or someone or something else's fault. Oftentimes I read a political or economic column and in the responses after the column there are frequently people saying it's Bush's fault or Obama's fault. So I figured people would be interested in knowing why it is their fault -- or not their fault.

Someone has voted that it is the fault of both.

[boxcar]

Why isn't it the fault of Socialism, since governments are spending far more than money they're receiving in tax revenues just so the greedy, selfish people can receive all their entitlements to which they have a God-given right? :rolleyes:

Try that "fiscal policy" in your own household and see what happens.

Boxcar

[Saratoga_Mike]

Why isn't it the fault of Socialism, since governments are spending far more than money they're receiving in tax revenues just so the greedy, selfish people can receive all their entitlements to which they have a God-given right? :rolleyes:

Try that "fiscal policy" in your own household and see what happens.

Boxcar

Box, would you say the same of those on Medicare and Social Security?

[boxcar]

Box, would you say the same of those on Medicare and Social Security?

Forget what you think I would say about American programs. Just address the issue of this thread. I maintain that Socialism is largely the culprit in Europe. What sayest thou? Do you have an intelligent response, or do I have to look elsewhere, such as to a bag of rocks?

Boxcar

[Tom]

It is a universal truth - you cannot spend more than than you take in forever.
No matter what a union boy or a democrat tells you.

USA, Greece, Spain.......any and all will go under if they do not wake up pretty damn fast. We are on the path to our demise.

[Saratoga_Mike]

Forget what you think I would say about American programs. Just address the issue of this thread. I maintain that Socialism is largely the culprit in Europe. What sayest thou? Do you have an intelligent response, or do I have to look elsewhere, such as to a bag of rocks?

Boxcar

Okay, the main issue right now is nominal GDP is running well short of the trend line. This is something the ECB can and should address. This is not the fault of anyone except the Europeans.

P.S. Your sensitivity to discussing US-based social-welfare programs (Social Sec and Medicare) has been noted.

[NJ Stinks]

I voted for Bush because I never voted for the guy before and wanted to experience the rush. :rolleyes:

[boxcar]

Okay, the main issue right now is nominal GDP is running well short of the trend line. This is something the ECB can and should address. This is not the fault of anyone except the Europeans.

P.S. Your sensitivity to discussing US-based social-welfare programs (Social Sec and Medicare) has been noted.

Not at all. But I'm allergic to red herrings. You might want to make note of this, as well.

Now, back to the issue: It's really very simple: When someone continually spends more than he takes in, then plan on a disaster happening. In fact, normal human beings would even count on it! This isn't even a case of unintended consequences. It's more an issue of sheer idiocy. What did these morons expect to happen when they pile on the debt on top of debt on top of debt....?

AIG Chief Sees Retirement Age as High as 80 After Crisis

“Retirement ages will have to move to 70, 80 years old,” Benmosche, who turned 68 last week, said during a weekend interview at his seaside villa in Dubrovnik, Croatia. “That would make pensions, medical services more affordable. They will keep people working longer and will take that burden off of the youth.”

The crisis, now in its third year, threatens to destroy Europe’s 17-nation currency union as Greece contemplates exiting the euro and Spain sees its bond yields rise and banking industry falter. German Chancellor Angela Merkel hardened her opposition to joint debt sharing in the euro region as U.S. President Barack Obama singled out Europe’s leaders for not doing enough to arrest the crisis.

So much for utopia. :rolleyes:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-03/aig-chief-sees-retirement-age-as-high-as-80-after-crisis.html

Of course, there is a short-term fix for all this: The governments could levy a 100% tax upon all incomes with the guarantee that everyone will have their needs and wants met from cradle to grave. The only problem with this solution is that the people in Europe are already addicted to entitlements, and so they'll never be satisfied with static programs. Addictions simply don't work that way.

Boxcar

[elysiantraveller]

I think raising the retirement age is the right choice. Even ignoring the fact we are living longer, I would bet and if someone has stats I would appreciate it, that my generation isn't entering the workforce full-time as early as previous ones.

[Native Texan III]

Okay, the main issue right now is nominal GDP is running well short of the trend line. This is something the ECB can and should address. This is not the fault of anyone except the Europeans.

P.S. Your sensitivity to discussing US-based social-welfare programs (Social Sec and Medicare) has been noted.

The problem of massive personal and Government debt in the West (not just Europe) is down to financial deregulation, poor regulation, over-reliance on free markets to correct rather than all going the wrong way, low interest rates caused by artificial low inflation from huge imports of cheap goods from China and globalisation, overleveraged and broken banks, a monster of a derivatives market that no one fully understands, international companies making near zero tax payments, the wall of money coming back from China etc that banks pushed as loans to anyone warm and breathing, banks that did not have the backbone to not join in the party, Governments who like citizen booms that cover up the decline of actual industry to generate real GDP and wealth rather than the false GDPs of processing imports and loans.
That it is all going wrong for most countries at the same time has not happened since the Great Depression. There are no simple, easy answers.

In short it is complicated, it effects different countries in different ways.
Both Ireland and Spain were running Government surpluses before 2008. Greece lied and covered up huge loans to cover up its crony payments and lax collection of tax. Italy has a huge blackmarket economy - no one know if they are in actual surplus or not. UK not in Euro but has bigger debts than Greece, a 30% devaluation with little manufacturing left to benefit by exports and a huge banking sector liability that the public have had to bail out.

[delayjf]

The problem of massive personal and Government debt in the West (not just Europe) is down to financial deregulation, poor regulation, over-reliance on free markets

What does the lack of regulation have to do with Government Spending? It could be argued that deregulation spurred the growth that lead to the prosperity of the 80's, 90's and most of the 00's, which in turn led to record revenues for the Federal Government.

Certainly some regulation could prevented some of the banking collapse - like forcing the banks to put their derivatives exposure on the books. CA is the one of the most regulated states in the Union and it's not helping with the recovery out here.

[boxcar]

I think raising the retirement age is the right choice. Even ignoring the fact we are living longer, I would bet and if someone has stats I would appreciate it, that my generation isn't entering the workforce full-time as early as previous ones.

Tell that to Greece. They still don't get it! They want to lower the retirement age. :lol: :lol:

Boxcar

[mostpost]

Not at all. But I'm allergic to red herrings. You might want to make note of this, as well.

Now, back to the issue: It's really very simple: When someone continually spends more than he takes in, then plan on a disaster happening. In fact, normal human beings would even count on it! This isn't even a case of unintended consequences. It's more an issue of sheer idiocy. What did these morons expect to happen when they pile on the debt on top of debt on top of debt....?

AIG Chief Sees Retirement Age as High as 80 After Crisis

“Retirement ages will have to move to 70, 80 years old,” Benmosche, who turned 68 last week, said during a weekend interview at his seaside villa in Dubrovnik, Croatia. “That would make pensions, medical services more affordable. They will keep people working longer and will take that burden off of the youth.”

The crisis, now in its third year, threatens to destroy Europe’s 17-nation currency union as Greece contemplates exiting the euro and Spain sees its bond yields rise and banking industry falter. German Chancellor Angela Merkel hardened her opposition to joint debt sharing in the euro region as U.S. President Barack Obama singled out Europe’s leaders for not doing enough to arrest the crisis.

So much for utopia. :rolleyes:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-03/aig-chief-sees-retirement-age-as-high-as-80-after-crisis.html

Of course, there is a short-term fix for all this: The governments could levy a 100% tax upon all incomes with the guarantee that everyone will have their needs and wants met from cradle to grave. The only problem with this solution is that the people in Europe are already addicted to entitlements, and so they'll never be satisfied with static programs. Addictions simply don't work that way.

Boxcar
I see the problem. Companies like AIG have idiots like Robert Benmosche as their Chief Executive Officer. Raise the retirement age to 80. Leaving aside the fact that people in their seventies have done their share and should be able to enjoy their final years, where do the jobs come from. I'm sure Benmosche does not care about that. He is just looking at saving money on pensions, and to hell with the younger people who will not be able to find jobs.

Right now there are 36 million people over the age of 65 in this country and that number is increasing rapidly. If they raised the retirement age to eighty right now for everyone under 65 years of ages, it would mean millions of jobs that would not come open every year.

There have been some pretty stupid things suggested on these pages, but that wins the prize.

[boxcar]

I see the problem. Companies like AIG have idiots like Robert Benmosche as their Chief Executive Officer. Raise the retirement age to 80. Leaving aside the fact that people in their seventies have done their share and should be able to enjoy their final years, where do the jobs come from. I'm sure Benmosche does not care about that. He is just looking at saving money on pensions, and to hell with the younger people who will not be able to find jobs.

Right now there are 36 million people over the age of 65 in this country and that number is increasing rapidly. If they raised the retirement age to eighty right now for everyone under 65 years of ages, it would mean millions of jobs that would not come open every year.

There have been some pretty stupid things suggested on these pages, but that wins the prize.

Maybe utterly stupid policies elicit these kinds of stupid solutions. But sooner or later, someone has to pay the freight. The only other solution is raise taxes drastically on everyone thereby equally reducing the amount of expendable income people can put back into the economy. Another solution, of course, is that draconian cuts could be made in spending but then the welfare junkies and entitlement addicts would start a revolution.

Boxcar

[badcompany]

Right now there are 36 million people over the age of 65 in this country and that number is increasing rapidly. If they raised the retirement age to eighty right now for everyone under 65 years of ages, it would mean millions of jobs that would not come open every year.

You unwittingly pointed out why these programs are doomed to fail. In wealthy countries children are a big financial burden. So, the tendency is to have less of them, the endgame being to few people depositing into soc sec and medicare and too many withdrawing.




There have been some pretty stupid things suggested on these pages, but that wins the prize.

You not too bad yourself there, stud.:lol:

[badcompany]

What does the lack of regulation have to do with Government Spending? It could be argued that deregulation spurred the growth that lead to the prosperity of the 80's, 90's and most of the 00's, which in turn led to record revenues for the Federal Government.

Certainly some regulation could prevented some of the banking collapse - like forcing the banks to put their derivatives exposure on the books. CA is the one of the most regulated states in the Union and it's not helping with the recovery out here.

You know you're dealing with someone who has been indoctrinated when they blame free markets for the financial crisis.

Where is there more Central Planning than in the banking and finance sectors? You have a Central Planning agency, the Fed, which has absolute control over the most important market price: the price of money viz. interest rates.

[Native Texan III]

What does the lack of regulation have to do with Government Spending? It could be argued that deregulation spurred the growth that lead to the prosperity of the 80's, 90's and most of the 00's, which in turn led to record revenues for the Federal Government.

Certainly some regulation could prevented some of the banking collapse - like forcing the banks to put their derivatives exposure on the books. CA is the one of the most regulated states in the Union and it's not helping with the recovery out here.

You have to read the whole paragraph.
The Government spending or increased debt was to bail the banks etc out that failed due to deregulation etc etc. The "growth" was largely the start of massive private debt bubble that fooled the masses they were rich, inflated house prices and borrowing money from China and Europe that went in a consumer boom buying overseas goods and wholesale selling off of USA assets and jobs . Prosperity has to be earned - not borrowed.

[delayjf]

The Government spending or increased debt was to bail the banks etc out that failed due to deregulation etc etc. The "growth" was largely the start of massive private debt bubble that fooled the masses they were rich, inflated house prices and borrowing money from China and Europe that went in a consumer boom buying overseas goods and wholesale selling off of USA assets and jobs . Prosperity has to be earned - not borrowed.

Not all the debt we have accumulated in the past 3 years is due to the bailout. Certainly it was a part. And not all the growth in the 00 was due to over - expansion of the housing market. I will agree with you at least that the derivative market needs regulation on par with the Stock Markets. But I would also point out that it was under Clinton's watch that the The Gramm–Leach–Bliley Act was made law - but it was supported by both sides. All regulation is not bad, but too much regulation is not good either. Witness CA decline as they move forward with their Carbon trading regulation. Implementing Carbon trading on a national level would have been an unmitigated disastor.

[badcompany]

You have to read the whole paragraph.
The Government spending or increased debt was to bail the banks etc out that failed due to deregulation etc etc. The "growth" was largely the start of massive private debt bubble that fooled the masses they were rich, inflated house prices and borrowing money from China and Europe that went in a consumer boom buying overseas goods and wholesale selling off of USA assets and jobs . Prosperity has to be earned - not borrowed.

The reason the regulation is necessary is because of the failures of Central Planning not the Free Market.

The housing crisis was caused by two interventions. The government push to artificially increase home ownership and the Fed's interest rate manipulation which led to artificial credit expansion.

In a truly free market, you couldn't have a massive housing boom in a country with no savings. Where would the banks get the money to lend?

[lsbets]

The reason the regulation is necessary is because of the failures of Central Planning not the Free Market.

The housing crisis was caused by two interventions. The government push to artificially increase home ownership and the Fed's interest rate manipulation which led to artificial credit expansion.

In a truly free market, you couldn't have a massive housing boom in a country with no savings. Where would the banks get the money to lend?

You are one of the few who understand that. Unfortunately far too many dolts believe that the answer to the failures of government intervention is even more government intervention.

[witchdoctor]

I see the problem. Companies like AIG have idiots like Robert Benmosche as their Chief Executive Officer. Raise the retirement age to 80. Leaving aside the fact that people in their seventies have done their share and should be able to enjoy their final years, where do the jobs come from. I'm sure Benmosche does not care about that. He is just looking at saving money on pensions, and to hell with the younger people who will not be able to find jobs.

Right now there are 36 million people over the age of 65 in this country and that number is increasing rapidly. If they raised the retirement age to eighty right now for everyone under 65 years of ages, it would mean millions of jobs that would not come open every year.

There have been some pretty stupid things suggested on these pages, but that wins the prize.


Actually Benmosche has a good point. When Social Security came into existence in 1935 , the average life expectancy was 61.7 years. Now with current medical care, life expectancy is now 78 years. If you did like Congress did in 1935 and make the eligibility for Social Security to 3 years longer than the life expectancy, the Social Security should start at age 81.

[elysiantraveller]

Actually Benmosche has a good point. When Social Security came into existence in 1935 , the average life expectancy was 61.7 years. Now with current medical care, life expectancy is now 78 years. If you did like Congress did in 1935 and make the eligibility for Social Security to 3 years longer than the life expectancy, the Social Security should start at age 81.

And like I said I would say that the younger generations aren't entering the workforce fulltime until they are older than the previous ones.

[JustRalph]

Actually Benmosche has a good point. When Social Security came into existence in 1935 , the average life expectancy was 61.7 years. Now with current medical care, life expectancy is now 78 years. If you did like Congress did in 1935 and make the eligibility for Social Security to 3 years longer than the life expectancy, the Social Security should start at age 81.

Stop invading threads with real facts and making salient points that make so much sense. It's counter intuitive to the likes of mosty.

Bad Company, the same goes for you.......

[Robert Goren]

It is a European banking crisis. .

Question. What do you do when you see line of people outside of your bank?
Answer. Get in the line!

If you live in Europe you should be in line.

[so.cal.fan]

It's the fault of Keynesian economics of course.

This is a failed system It will continue to fail.

Bring back the free market.

[mostpost]

It's the fault of Keynesian economics of course.

This is a failed system It will continue to fail.

Bring back the free market.

We haven't used Keynesian economics since Reagan. It was quite successful before that. Keynesian economics got us out of the depression, powered our economy during WWII and was the driving force behind the post war boom. Then some genius decided that supply side economics was a better idea. The result was lower GDP growth rate; wages rising at a much slower rate than previously; unemployment double on average what it previously was; The second worst depression/recession in our history, and an ever widening cap between the richest and the poorest.

Remember Keith Olbermann's "Worst Person In The World"? Well the worst people in the world were Milton Friedmann and the Chicago School of Economics and their free market theories. A free market creates a ravenous beast which devours everything in its path. At the end of a free market you ar left with a few giant conglomerates which can dictate everything.

The problem is not Keynesian economics, the problem is we have stopped using Keynesian economics

[Tom]

The problem is not Keynesian economics, the problem is we have stopped demanding that people pull their own weight.

FTFY

[so.cal.fan]

Most Host:
Like I just posted on another thread here.....I no longer have ANY RESPECT for your opinions.
You sir are either a misguided fool or a Marxist or both.

[mostpost]

Most Host:
Like I just posted on another thread here.....I no longer have ANY RESPECT for your opinions.
You sir are either a misguided fool or a Marxist or both.

Just like Elkabong, you make a statement above that Keynesian economics is responsible for all our economic woes and provide nothing to back up that statement. When I refute your statement with evidence, you resort to name calling saying that I am "a misguided fool or a Marxist or both." In point of fact I am neither. I am a believer in the capitalist system, but I recognize that it is just like fire. Fire heats our homes and cooks our food, but if we let fire do whatever it wants it will consume us. Fire does not self regulate and neither does capitalism.

Now you go and call Elkabong and find out how you should reply. :rolleyes:

[so.cal.fan]

I asked Ron Paul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwM5rLLSehE

[mostpost]

I asked Ron Paul.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwM5rLLSehE

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but Ron Paul lied to you. In the video Ron Paul says we cut spending after WWII. True as far as it goes, but he does not tell you where we cut spending. The conservative belief is that the only purpose of government is to protect its citizens from attack. It is money spent on social programs that is not wisely spent.

So what happened after WWII? Military spending dropped from $82.965B in 1945 to $9.105B in 1948. That accounts for all of you spending cuts.

At the same time Human Resources spending increased from $859M in 1945 to $9.868B in 1948. Human Resources includes Education, Income security, Social Security, Health and Veterans benefits and services.

Spending on Physical Resources increased from $1.747B to $2.243B
Physical Resources include energy, natural resources, commerce, housing, transportation and economic development.

After 1948 Military spending again began to soar until it was five times larger in 1957.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2009/pdf/hist.pdf

Table 3.1 on page 47

[delayjf]

Keynesian economics got us out of the depression, powered our economy during WWII and was the driving force behind the post war boom.

After 1948 Military spending again began to soar until it was five times larger in 1957.

Thank you for pointing out that military spending is a great economic stimulant.