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View Full Version : Betfair lobby fails to secure California dream


usedtolovetvg
06-02-2012, 12:01 PM
http://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/tvg-this-is-a-bleak-day-for-california-horse-racing/

gm10
06-02-2012, 04:05 PM
"LOBBYING by Betfair has failed to secure the implementation of exchange betting in California in time for the prestigious Del Mar meeting which starts on July 18.

At a monthly board meeting on Friday the Thoroughbred Owners of California (TOC) which represents horsemen in the state, opted not to vote on the issue."

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=173401

It doesn't look good. Why is the approval of the TOC needed anyway?

usedtolovetvg
06-02-2012, 04:23 PM
They don't have the owners. They don't have the trainers. They don't have Stronach. As far as I can tell they have Simon Bray, Todd Schrupp and a few uninformed fans.

FenceBored
06-02-2012, 04:30 PM
"LOBBYING by Betfair has failed to secure the implementation of exchange betting in California in time for the prestigious Del Mar meeting which starts on July 18.

At a monthly board meeting on Friday the Thoroughbred Owners of California (TOC) which represents horsemen in the state, opted not to vote on the issue."

http://www.racingpost.com/news/live.sd?event_id=173401

It doesn't look good. Why is the approval of the TOC needed anyway?

Federal Law. The way the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978 was worded allows a horsemen's group to block the import/export of simulcast signals. This was intended to give the horsemen leverage to insure that their interests (and the purse account) weren't ignored in negotiations between their host tracks and other entities (tracks, OTBs, ADWs, etc.).

cj
06-02-2012, 04:59 PM
Horsemen were given way too much power. It is one of racing's biggest downfalls.

Charli125
06-02-2012, 05:07 PM
They don't have the owners. They don't have the trainers. They don't have Stronach. As far as I can tell they have Simon Bray, Todd Schrupp and a few uninformed fans.

That's funny because a lot of those "uninformed fans" you're talking about are in the 2% of players out there that actually win. Maybe not as uninformed as you'd like people to think. The only people opposed to Exchange Wagering are those that don't understand it, and those that have a personal issue with it or one of the entities involved.

CJ nailed it. The horsemen run CA now and they're not going to relinquish control any time soon. Too bad, I'd hoped some of the new blood would help, but they're just as bad as the last group.

usedtolovetvg
06-02-2012, 05:14 PM
That's funny because a lot of those "uninformed fans" you're talking about are in the 2% of players out there that actually win. Maybe not as uninformed as you'd like people to think. The only people opposed to Exchange Wagering are those that don't understand it, and those that have a personal issue with it or one of the entities involved.

CJ nailed it. The horsemen run CA now and they're not going to relinquish control any time soon. Too bad, I'd hoped some of the new blood would help, but they're just as bad as the last group.

I'm glad you understand it. Not too many people do.

Charli125
06-02-2012, 05:16 PM
I'm glad you understand it. Not too many people do.

Then they should educate themselves. The information is all out there in the public domain. It's really pretty simple stuff if you look at it objectively.

usedtolovetvg
06-02-2012, 05:19 PM
It's not as simple as it appears. If anyone thinks it's as easy as getting 5-1 on a horse that is 7-2 on the tote, they are sadly mistaken. The 'bots' will grab all the value and leave the crumbs for the those who point and click.

cj
06-02-2012, 06:51 PM
It's not as simple as it appears. If anyone thinks it's as easy as getting 5-1 on a horse that is 7-2 on the tote, they are sadly mistaken. The 'bots' will grab all the value and leave the crumbs for the those who point and click.

In any case you get the advantage of fixed odds for what you can get down.

Dave Schwartz
06-02-2012, 06:52 PM
Horsemen were given way too much power. It is one of racing's biggest downfalls.

CJ,

You said a mouthful.

Talk to any horseman and he will tell you that the bettors just need to accept the fact that their money goes to support racing.

One horseman I spoke with said that "racing is entertainment." This is how the conversation went:


Me: Do you go out for an "entertainment evening" occasionally with your wife?

HM: Sure.

Me: How often do you go out?

HM: Well, with our busy schedules, maybe once every week to 10 days.

Me: How much do you usually spend on such an evening?

HM: I don't know. Maybe $150. Sometimes more; sometimes less.

Me: See, THAT is "entertainment." THAT is a reasonable budget for entertainment. Tell me... If the average horse player went to the races every 10 days and came with a budget of $150 could racing survive?

HM: No, of course not.

Me: You need him to come with more money and come more often?

HM: Yes. He has to understand that if racing is to survive, it needs his money.

Me: AND YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND that most people cannot justify 3-4 days per week of "entertainment" that costs them several hundred dollars.

HM: (No comment but a whole lot of quiet.)

Me: It really is very simple, you know.

HM: It is?

Me: yes. Change your business model so that it works for the customer or go out of business.

HM: Well, we can't change.

Me: Then you are going out of business.

jelly
06-02-2012, 07:08 PM
Why can't they change?

Dave Schwartz
06-02-2012, 07:27 PM
Jelly,

I think it is because they feel that they DESERVE to get paid first and, therefore, it is somebody else's problem to figure out.

Eventually they WILL realize that they are a PARTNER in a business model that does not work. That model is broken and must be fixed.

usedtolovetvg
06-03-2012, 12:15 AM
That model is broken and must be fixed.

It won't be fixed for a long time. Too many people to blame. It's always someone else's fault. Oh yeah, and then there's that thing called greed. I haven't met a high paid executive in a long time who wasn't a self-serving a-hole.

Buchan
06-03-2012, 12:27 AM
exchange models are excellent, but is betfair the company, excellent too?
maybe you need to hear the experiences of people from the uk and australia where they are licenced too.

lots of people that once whole heartedly supported betfair are now talking with their feet.

me being one of them

usedtolovetvg
06-03-2012, 12:52 AM
Take a look at their leadership. They have lost 2 CEOs and a Chairman in less than a year. The stock, which was highly touted a year and a half ago, is now about half the IPO price. And, they have Stephen Burn and Tony Allevato as key execs in the U.S. Please do not panic as you head to the exit.

gm10
06-03-2012, 08:14 AM
Federal Law. The way the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978 was worded allows a horsemen's group to block the import/export of simulcast signals. This was intended to give the horsemen leverage to insure that their interests (and the purse account) weren't ignored in negotiations between their host tracks and other entities (tracks, OTBs, ADWs, etc.).

I can see why this didn't seem like such a bad idea at the time, but I don't think the TOC is using their veto power to protect the interests of the entire industry. Which is strange because it seems quite obvious that they have a lot to lose.

usedtolovetvg
06-03-2012, 09:28 AM
I can see why this didn't seem like such a bad idea at the time, but I don't think the TOC is using their veto power to protect the interests of the entire industry. Which is strange because it seems quite obvious that they have a lot to lose.

It's pretty obvious where and to whom their allegiances lie. Remember, they are the Thoroughbred 'Owners' of California. You can say all you want about Frank Stronach and you would probably be right, but there is no denying the tremendous financial investment he has made in the game. What has Betfair done other than ram 'Betfair' Hollywood Park down our throats. The TOC is protecting their own and that's the way it should be. Since the only thing known for sure, if BF gets EW, is that BF will make a ton of money. Any other advantages are not so well defined.

classhandicapper
06-03-2012, 10:40 AM
It's not as simple as it appears. If anyone thinks it's as easy as getting 5-1 on a horse that is 7-2 on the tote, they are sadly mistaken. The 'bots' will grab all the value and leave the crumbs for the those who point and click.

After the first few weeks, it's likely the exchange will get fairly efficient, but there will still opportunities to get higher prices on occasion, the ability to book a horse when you dislike it but have no strong opinions elsewhere, and the ability to lock in your price and not have to get paranoid when your horse drops form 7-2 to 2-1 after it broke great and got loose.

BlueShoe
06-03-2012, 11:03 AM
Another factor coming into play that may impact horse racing in California is the approval of legalizing sports betting in California by the California State Senate a few days ago. The bill next goes to the Assembly. If passed, it would also require federal approval. Wagering would only be permitted at places that are currently licensed, such as racetracks and simulcast facilities. Hard to predict how this would affect racing. Would sports betting divert even more dollars from racing, or would the increased attendence at the tracks and otb sites encourage wagering on racing and increase handle?
http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/05/california-senate-passes-framework-for-sports-betting-in-ca.html

usedtolovetvg
06-03-2012, 11:08 AM
After the first few weeks, it's likely the exchange will get fairly efficient, but there will still opportunities to get higher prices on occasion, the ability to book a horse when you dislike it but have no strong opinions elsewhere, and the ability to lock in your price and not have to get paranoid when your horse drops form 7-2 to 2-1 after it broke great and got loose.

You have a clear and objective view of the way it will play out. For some, mostly those who don't really understand, it could be quite frustrating.

usedtolovetvg
06-03-2012, 11:16 AM
Another factor coming into play that may impact horse racing in California is the approval of legalizing sports betting in California by the California State Senate a few days ago. The bill next goes to the Assembly. If passed, it would also require federal approval. Wagering would only be permitted at places that are currently licensed, such as racetracks and simulcast facilities. Hard to predict how this would affect racing. Would sports betting divert even more dollars from racing, or would the increased attendence at the tracks and otb sites encourage wagering on racing and increase handle?
http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/05/california-senate-passes-framework-for-sports-betting-in-ca.html

At least sports betting will attract bettors that are more likely to bet on horses than slot players.

David-LV
06-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Another factor coming into play that may impact horse racing in California is the approval of legalizing sports betting in California by the California State Senate a few days ago. The bill next goes to the Assembly. If passed, it would also require federal approval. Wagering would only be permitted at places that are currently licensed, such as racetracks and simulcast facilities. Hard to predict how this would affect racing. Would sports betting divert even more dollars from racing, or would the increased attendence at the tracks and otb sites encourage wagering on racing and increase handle?
http://blogs.sacbee.com/capitolalertlatest/2012/05/california-senate-passes-framework-for-sports-betting-in-ca.html

The Feds will shut this down just like they did in Delaware faster then you can say Jackie Robinson.

No chance at all for this to happen in NJ. or CA. or anywhere else.

_________
David-LV

castaway01
06-03-2012, 03:31 PM
The Feds will shut this down just like they did in Delaware faster then you can say Jackie Robinson.

No chance at all for this to happen in NJ. or CA. or anywhere else.

_________
David-LV

Sadly (at least in my opinion because I'd like more gambling options), you're right. That's why all the posturing by our governor in NJ is just posturing and he knows that.

jelly
06-03-2012, 06:58 PM
Earlier today on TVG,before a Monmouth race,I heard Nick Hines take a shot at Cal.Racing and it's high takeout in the DD and Exactas Pointing out that Monmouth has a 19%takeout and Cal. is much higher on this bet.



Something you never see and should see more of.Educating the fans. :ThmbUp:





What provoked this? :lol:

mannyberrios
06-03-2012, 07:02 PM
The Feds will shut this down just like they did in Delaware faster then you can say Jackie Robinson.

No chance at all for this to happen in NJ. or CA. or anywhere else.

_________
David-LV I hope that you are wrong about this! If enough states get behind this, one never knows.

satrabyk
06-03-2012, 09:42 PM
Federal Law. The way the Interstate Horseracing Act of 1978 was worded allows a horsemen's group to block the import/export of simulcast signals. This was intended to give the horsemen leverage to insure that their interests (and the purse account) weren't ignored in negotiations between their host tracks and other entities (tracks, OTBs, ADWs, etc.).

Since Betfair bought TVG they resolved the delayed video issue pertaining to their U.S. Racing markets. They claim to be managing these markets in Malta. I find this very hard to believe. I know for a fact that they are seeing things faster than North Americans. I was told from Betfair that they were not allowed to have a server in Canada or the U.S.. Somehow Robert's Communications are providing them with special faster feeds and I would bet my house that they are managing these markets on U.S. soil. Are horsemen's groups aware of this ? Do they not realize that through proxy servers Americans are betting on Betfair already. Disable their access to these fast feeds etc and this will hurt them....

Al Gobbi
06-03-2012, 09:51 PM
The decision by the board of directors of the Thoroughbred Owners of California last week to table a vote on implementing exchange betting for at least a year was met with dismay and anger by officials with Betfair TVG, who said over the weekend they will continue to pursue implementation of the new form of wagering.

Stephen Burn, the chief executive officer of Betfair TVG, said he was given only a brief warning last Friday that the TOC would not support starting exchange betting for the upcoming Del Mar meeting, which runs from July 18 to Sept. 5. Burn said no conversations have been held with Los Alamitos officials on exchange betting on Quarter Horse racing, but, “I wouldn’t rule it out.”

http://www.drf.com/news/betfair-tvg-officials-miffed-toc-stance-exchange-betting

Some_One
06-03-2012, 11:32 PM
The only reason why Betfair doesn't offer Cali racing currently is to try and please the Cali execs, if they keep saying no to them, I imagine they will shutter TVG and offer Cali racing again on Betfair (but the US horsemen will not see a single penny of it).

highnote
06-04-2012, 11:02 AM
The decision by the board of directors of the Thoroughbred Owners of California last week to table a vote on implementing exchange betting for at least a year was met with dismay and anger by officials with Betfair TVG, who said over the weekend they will continue to pursue implementation of the new form of wagering.



There's an old saying in the stock market -- The market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent.

betfair has deep pockets, but how long will they be willing to throw money at an investment that may never pay off?

The U.S. racing industry changes slower than the Catholic church.

Also, I think part of the problem is not so much betting exchanges in general, as it is betfair specifically. For example, high odds were offered on a horse by mistake and betfair refused to pay off on the winning wager -- even though they accepted the wager. They blamed it on a computer glitch.

Well, how many times have you hit the wrong number on a computer or called out the wrong number to a teller and got stuck with the bet? Sure, if you bet before the race you might have been able to cancel the bet, but not after the race! And that is exactly what betfair did. bf stood to lose something like 20 million dollars or pounds. A large sum for an individual bettor, but not terribly large for a company that claims to be worth billions.

That is not a trivial issue. Whoever runs exchange wagering has to be credible. There is more to having credibility than just knowing how to run a betting exchange.

David-LV
06-04-2012, 11:09 AM
Pink elephants will fly over Hollywood park long before exchange betting ever comes to Califorina, and you can quote me on this statement.

_________
David-LV

highnote
06-04-2012, 11:20 AM
Pink elephants will fly over Hollywood park long before exchange betting ever comes to Califorina, and you can quote me on this statement.

_________
David-LV


It seems like the only time the expansion of gambling is approved is when politicians think they can get more money through taxation. Pols don't seem to care about horse racing anymore because their isn't as much money in it as in slot machine revenue. Racetracks and horsemen probably don't want to split more of their declining revenue with exchanges. For these and many other reasons exchanges are fighting an uphill battle they are likely to never win. Exchanges probably would be better off spending their money trying to win licenses to run slot machines.

Tom
06-04-2012, 12:46 PM
Pink elephants will fly over Hollywood park long before exchange betting ever comes to Califorina, and you can quote me on this statement.

_________
David-LV

And I thought PIGEONS were bad!!!!:eek:

Canarsie
06-04-2012, 03:34 PM
Pink elephants will fly over Hollywood park long before exchange betting ever comes to Califorina, and you can quote me on this statement.

_________
David-LV

Betfair???

I find it hard to believe that fans going out to a track that was called Hollywood Park for 74 years are now going to say I'm going out to Betfair to play the races.

No chance, not in this lifetime or the next.

________
David-LV

Your prognostication skills aren't in positive territory when it comes to Hollywood (that's what I call it to) and the use of the name. Just look at the first word when people are posting their picks. Betfair will probably sweeten the pot initially just to get their foot in the door. They see exchange wagering as their golden panacea but I don't agree. Its not that popular in Canada don't see why it would take hold to a great degree here.

But if I had to make a wager it will be in California within two years. Money talks especially with the California horsemen more money to their liking would have them going through hula hoops.

highnote
06-04-2012, 03:54 PM
Your prognostication skills aren't in positive territory when it comes to Hollywood (that's what I call it to) and the use of the name. Just look at the first word when people are posting their picks. Betfair will probably sweeten the pot initially just to get their foot in the door. They see exchange wagering as their golden panacea but I don't agree. Its not that popular in Canada don't see why it would take hold to a great degree here.

But if I had to make a wager it will be in California within two years. Money talks especially with the California horsemen more money to their liking would have them going through hula hoops.

When enough money is laid on the table a decision will be made.

fmolf
06-04-2012, 05:44 PM
When enough money is laid on the table a decision will be made.
Just a poker game now.I believe this will lead to a quicker demise of california racing.The little guy the recreational player, if he is foolish enough to wade into these markets, to be fleeced a lot quicker by the sharks will lead to a quicker death to racing as we know it.

racingfan378
06-04-2012, 11:02 PM
have you heard how TVG is bashing CA racing? The hosts are saying "play the pick 4 at BEL with a low 18.5% unlike the high takeout rates here in CA"

i think betfair is a joke and TVG has been a joke for quite sometime

i heard them taking that smack this past sunday when i was driving since they are on sirius XM from time to time

Al Gobbi
06-04-2012, 11:32 PM
have you heard how TVG is bashing CA racing? The hosts are saying "play the pick 4 at BEL with a low 18.5% unlike the high takeout rates here in CA"

i think betfair is a joke and TVG has been a joke for quite sometime

i heard them taking that smack this past sunday when i was driving since they are on sirius XM from time to time

Pick 4 take at Belmont is 24%.

Did they ever show the takeout rates at Woodbine or other places with high levels during the day?

jelly
06-04-2012, 11:46 PM
I think it's great that TVG is educating the Horseplayer who has the better gamble. :ThmbUp:

racingfan378
06-04-2012, 11:55 PM
probably not, but like i said they were tossing CA racing right under the bus. That was probably MTH they were talking about and not BEL. my bad. some early track and the pick 4 they were showing

i cant stand TVG period. tape delay = kiss my ass

racingfan378
06-04-2012, 11:57 PM
there are ways to educate the player, but you dont hear them bashing philly and the 30% tri takeout on mondays and tuesdays!

they are pissed about exchange wagering. they might as well bring bookies into the tracks and then we can be just like aussie racing. the price on the tote sucks find the nearest bookie. g'day mate!

:D

Al Gobbi
06-05-2012, 12:23 AM
there are ways to educate the player, but you dont hear them bashing philly and the 30% tri takeout on mondays and tuesdays!

they are pissed about exchange wagering. they might as well bring bookies into the tracks and then we can be just like aussie racing. the price on the tote sucks find the nearest bookie. g'day mate!

:D

TVG not taking wagers/showing races from Parx since Saturday.

racingfan378
06-05-2012, 12:53 AM
the point im making is a simple one...

they are pissed at the TOC! so now, on air, they are basically saying to play other tracks than CA based on the takeout rate.

if i had a tape of the sunday show, i would play it to prove a point, they said it 4 times in a ten min span. they never before have done that!

fmolf
06-05-2012, 01:44 AM
the point im making is a simple one...

they are pissed at the TOC! so now, on air, they are basically saying to play other tracks than CA based on the takeout rate.

if i had a tape of the sunday show, i would play it to prove a point, they said it 4 times in a ten min span. they never before have done that!
All they want is whats good for betfair....their is no concern for the bettor or the fan whatsoever.Exchange betting is not going to help racing attract new fans,I feel new fans will be intimidated by the intricacies of this method of wagering.The pari mutual system works just fine why change it?

usedtolovetvg
06-05-2012, 08:52 AM
the point im making is a simple one...

they are pissed at the TOC! so now, on air, they are basically saying to play other tracks than CA based on the takeout rate.

if i had a tape of the sunday show, i would play it to prove a point, they said it 4 times in a ten min span. they never before have done that!

I'd like to see that. Maybe someone did record it and post it. I don't think that would sit very well with their SoCal partners. They have made some kind of investment and that would be cutting their nose.